Page 1 of 5 12345>
Topic Options
#101099 - 06/26/15 02:09 AM Postmodern Satanism gets PWNED
thedeadidea Offline
member


Registered: 08/15/10
Posts: 209
 Quote:
I'm glad you finally got down to it. Thanks, dude.

Let me ask you, yes or no, do you see the empirical world (aka, the phenomena of perception) as existing within a primarily ADVERSARIAL expression?

Circle one: Y/N.

Once we get that little bit of trivia out of the way, we can move forward . . .


I circle NO...

Feel free to try justify it, I refuse to consider this debate simply in the confines of the world of phenomenon i.e. conscious experience.

Top
#101111 - 06/26/15 07:33 AM Re: Postmodern Satanism gets PWNED [Re: thedeadidea]
thedeadidea Offline
member


Registered: 08/15/10
Posts: 209
The debate is set.

The resolution

"Is Postmodern Satanism a reasonable position or worldview to hold ?"

4 rounds of debate including final arguments
3 rebuttals
500 word limit posts

The Affirmative argues first

Top
#101116 - 06/26/15 10:48 AM Re: Postmodern Satanism gets PWNED [Re: thedeadidea]
Megatron Offline
active member


Registered: 08/22/14
Posts: 859
Loc: fuckit, some kid cracked my co...
 Originally Posted By: thedeadidea
The debate is set.

The resolution

"Is Postmodern Satanism a reasonable position or worldview to hold ?"

4 rounds of debate including final arguments
3 rebuttals
500 word limit posts

The Affirmative argues first



+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The notion that the biosphere of Earth operates primarily through an adversarial vein is not something I invented. It's merely something scientists have been observing ever since they started being honest.

Think about it for a second. Reflect on it. Predator-prey. Parasitic organisms. Etc. You would be hard pressed to find the counterexample in nature. Symbiosis is rare, and always exists as a buffer to said adversarialism. True altruism is also extremely hard to find. It exists almost as a proof of the Rule.

I'm not arguing WHY here. Only THAT. Lions don't lie down with lambs, they slaughter them. And they are in turn slaughtered by a pack of hyenas. Which then draw the vultures. And then we get to the microbes. Some have been "tamed," sure. But most of them are trying to use their hosts as soil, which as any virologist can attest, is not usually good for us (or any host).

As a worldview, Postmodern Satanism is just the recognition of this facticity. And also that this exact facticity has led to Betterment (the Luciferian Current). By virtue of this neverending conflict, both predator and prey have had to adapt to each others' adaptations. And as a continuing result, they have all become necessarily BETTER through this adversarial stream of existence.

Now look, what is the counterpoint? I'm sure Michael will come up with something. But whatever it is he comes up with, can it defeat this basal recognition of the world? Can it defeat lions? Eagles? Jellyfish? E Coli? Influenza? Or the very vector that makes all of these things (and everything else you can name) adversarial?

I don't think so.
_________________________
You can't beat me, I'm a fucking Transformer (TM), dude.

Oh, and I spell everything right.

Top
#101120 - 06/26/15 11:33 AM Re: Postmodern Satanism gets PWNED [Re: Megatron]
SIN3 Offline
stalker


Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 7190
Loc: Virginia
 Quote:
Postmodern Satanism is just the recognition of this facticity.


This is pretty much the sum total of my understanding of PMS without having read your book. What I"m a bit fuzzy on, is whether this extends outward beyond how humans experience the world (human concepts).

The Sun plays a central role in all systems on this planet and through its destruction (albeit a slow process) it gives rise to Life.

 Quote:
And as a continuing result, they have all become necessarily BETTER through this adversarial stream of existence.


What may have occurred is precisely this through Natural Selection and Adaptation. If it weren't for this current, I doubt a single atom would move, without that friction.

So that's it in a nutshell, if my understanding is flawed let me know. I really should just buy a copy for my library.

 Originally Posted By: thedeadidea
I refuse to consider this debate simply in the confines of the world of phenomenon i.e. conscious experience.


I don't think such limitations are set, it's just an analysis of physics which seem rather obvious and straight-forward to me. As to the Meta? Why does that matter?

Isn't the nature of this post evidence of that adversarial current?


Edited by SIN3 (06/26/15 12:28 PM)
Edit Reason: be like that sometimes
_________________________
SINJONES.com

Top
#101122 - 06/26/15 12:16 PM Re: Postmodern Satanism gets PWNED [Re: thedeadidea]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2721
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
In the Bandar-log community of "Satanism is whatever is convenient and flattering to my self-image", it makes perfect sense for it to be similarly engushed by the idiocy of "postmodernism".
_________________________
Michael A. Aquino

Top
#101124 - 06/26/15 12:29 PM Re: Postmodern Satanism gets PWNED [Re: Megatron]
when7iseleven Offline
member


Registered: 07/11/11
Posts: 241
Loc: High Peak, UK
 Originally Posted By: Megatron

Think about it for a second. Reflect on it. Predator-prey. Parasitic organisms. Etc. You would be hard pressed to find the counterexample in nature. Symbiosis is rare, and always exists as a buffer to said adversarialism. True altruism is also extremely hard to find. It exists almost as a proof of the Rule.

I'm not arguing WHY here. Only THAT. Lions don't lie down with lambs, they slaughter them. And they are in turn slaughtered by a pack of hyenas. Which then draw the vultures. And then we get to the microbes. Some have been "tamed," sure. But most of them are trying to use their hosts as soil, which as any virologist can attest, is not usually good for us (or any host).



Not entirely true; the human microbiota on every human being outnumber the cells of that being by approximately 10 to 1. The vast majority of them are not only beneficial to health but life may not exist without them & certainly wouldn't as we know it.

It's not necceessarily adversarial evolution but joint evolution.
_________________________
Diamond life, lover boy, minimum waste, maximum joy

Top
#101127 - 06/26/15 01:03 PM Re: Postmodern Satanism gets PWNED [Re: when7iseleven]
SIN3 Offline
stalker


Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 7190
Loc: Virginia
That's one way of looking at it. Considering that the majority of Microflora in humans exist in the colon (and are Obligate anerobes) which can't really exist in the Oxygen based environment, I'd say it's a necessary adaptation.

This 'symbiosis' is far from harmony, in fact there is an interdependence on several factors such as:

 Quote:
pH, peristalsis, redox potential, bacterial adhesion, bacterial cooperation, mucin secretion, nutrient availability, diet, and bacterial antagonism. source



An infant tract is sterile until those microbes enter through the mouth. Over-time, the tract is colonized provided the environment is ideal. Other microbes enter via vaginal birth allowing for microbial diversity. Research is limited because cultivation is a long slow process, much needed as it relates to these would-be helpful little guys that lead to illness and death.

There's always another angle when you invoke Nero's Lens.
_________________________
SINJONES.com

Top
#101128 - 06/26/15 01:34 PM Re: Postmodern Satanism gets PWNED [Re: thedeadidea]
CanisMachina42 Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/10/13
Posts: 1423
Loc: Ca
I am going to argue the affirmative potion and extend it to man made devices as well. The most adversarial device = Free Market Economy

Capitalism has all the elements up to and including regulation vs. deregulation. The strongest business models grow, take over, monopolize, and even falter amid fierce competition for market share in a volatile stock market. All other economic systems stagnate lacking competition.

The point being, it can't be escaped. Even man's creations eventually fall into the most efficient form conducive for survival.

_________________________
32.6
-117.1
Sea level
11:56 PM July, 1st 2019
Wrote Signature

Top
#101161 - 06/27/15 07:06 AM Re: Postmodern Satanism gets PWNED [Re: Megatron]
Persona non grata Offline
member


Registered: 01/27/15
Posts: 469
 Originally Posted By: Megatron
The notion that the biosphere of Earth operates primarily through an adversarial vein is not something I invented. It's merely something scientists have been observing ever since they started being honest.


When exactly did this honesty "start", for what reason did it start, and what lie do you suggest held the truths position prior?

 Originally Posted By: Megatron
You would be hard pressed to find the counterexample in nature.


I have no need to counter an assertion that you have yet to substantiate, Jason. What you are doing is called "Begging The Question".

Claim X assumes X is true.
Therefore, claim X is true.


Fallacy much? All you have done thus far is point to adversarial things, and call them adversarial. Neat trick, but it fools no one. Also, all apples are red, except for the green ones, and all of those are green, except for the yellow ones... See how that works? The reason that you only see the adversarial in nature, is because that's all you want to see in nature.

 Originally Posted By: Megatron
I'm not arguing WHY here. Only THAT.


This much is obvious. I have asked you why on two or three threads now, and you have dodged the question quite nimbly. If you wanted to argue the 'why', you first have to substantiate the 'what', and you cannot.

 Originally Posted By: Megatron
As a worldview, Postmodern Satanism is just the recognition of this facticity.


You claim that the world is adversarial, while in reality, you are focused upon adversarial portions of the world, while ignoring the rest. Biased Sample Fallacy (also known as: biased statistics, loaded sample, prejudiced statistics, prejudiced sample, loaded statistics, biased induction, biased generalization, unrepresentative sample, unrepresentative generalization)

You assert your views as "facticity" without having demonstrated them, then continue on to suggest that an external system of viewing, other than basic observation, is required so as to recognize the claimed "facticity" (and of course you have one all ready for them too!), although you have neither demonstrated that the claimed facts are indeed facts, nor have you demonstrated that would-be facts require your postmodern Satanism so as to be accurately evaluated.

It is much more likely the case, Jason, that one would come to see the nature of Earths ecosystem as you see it, were they to lens their observation through your predefined, and might I say presupposed, analysis.

 Originally Posted By: Megatron
And also that this exact facticity has led to Betterment (the Luciferian Current). By virtue of this neverending conflict, both predator and prey have had to adapt to each others' adaptations. And as a continuing result, they have all become necessarily BETTER through this adversarial stream of existence.


Again, you count the hits and ignore the misses. Stop pretending that you are evaluating Earth biology, when what you are actually doing is looking specifically at one element of it, and claiming it to be all encompassing.

Will you make a case that the cold wind is being adversarial? Is the heat and radiation of the sun in competition with the flesh it burns? Of course not.

If you'd realize that evolution exist between organism and environment, as well as between organisms themselves, you ought to feel rather foolish when you realize that adversarial elements are certainly a part of, but not a requisite of, evolution. The sun has nothing to gain, nor genes to improve, yet the organism burned will adapt or die, all the same.

 Originally Posted By: Megatron
But whatever it is he comes up with, can it defeat this basal recognition of the world?


I just defeated your supposed argument, Jason.

 Originally Posted By: Megatron
Can it defeat lions? Eagles? Jellyfish? E Coli? Influenza? Or the very vector that makes all of these things (and everything else you can name) adversarial. I don't think so.


Mmmm, well you are correct there, Jason. When you only look at adversarial things, you only see adversarial things. Hail Satanism, you know, the postmodern kind...

Top
#101162 - 06/27/15 08:50 AM Re: Postmodern Satanism gets PWNED [Re: Persona non grata]
Megatron Offline
active member


Registered: 08/22/14
Posts: 859
Loc: fuckit, some kid cracked my co...
As a general note, I will not be replying to anyone's points other than thedeadidea's. At least until the formal part of this debate is concluded. Ground rules as stated in the opie. Just sayin'.
_________________________
You can't beat me, I'm a fucking Transformer (TM), dude.

Oh, and I spell everything right.

Top
#101178 - 06/27/15 01:13 PM Re: Postmodern Satanism gets PWNED [Re: thedeadidea]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3342
For starters... fuck your rules.

Onward to Postmodern Satanism....
Is it reasonable? As much as the preacher on the corner of your street is.

Satanism in itself contains a certain skeptical mindset.. just like Postmodernism does. Bringing the two "labels" together seems to be a redundant exercise.

As mentioned before by SIN3, things are still being analyzed from a subjective point of view (anthropocentrism).

I'm not going to say it isn't a reasonable position/worldview to hold.. but I've seen better.
_________________________
Ut vivat, crescat et floreat

Top
#101185 - 06/27/15 08:05 PM Re: Postmodern Satanism gets PWNED [Re: thedeadidea]
antikarmatomic Offline
BANNED
stalker


Registered: 09/22/13
Posts: 3208
Loc: El Mundo
Yes, it's reasonable in a both allegorical and practical sense.

I am also going to mention the post-modern + Satanism is an interesting redundancy. Like "wet liquids" or the how warning label on peanut brittle explicitly states that "this product contains peanuts"

Postmodernism: of, relating to, or being a theory that involves a radical reappraisal of modern assumptions about culture, identity, history, or language

The mere act of calling it "Satanism" does precisely that in any Abrahamic society. Certainly the effect of calling it that is fading, but the underlying principle will remain.

There will always be the usurper sub-class within the next generation. The MRSA, if you will.

Better mouse traps make for only cleverer mice - which makes for better mouse-traps. Better security makes for more talented hackers - which makes for better security. Better policing makes for smarter criminals - which makes for better policing. Evasive rabbits make for stealthier foxes - which makes for more evasive rabbits.

It's why pesticides suddenly stop working, and then we end up engineering new ones.

It's fucking obvious, this pervasive principal, which can't even be PWNED - it's 101 stuff.
_________________________
Angelic harlequins and sinister clowns.

Top
#101188 - 06/27/15 10:19 PM Re: Postmodern Satanism gets PWNED [Re: Megatron]
thedeadidea Offline
member


Registered: 08/15/10
Posts: 209
 Originally Posted By: Megatron
 Originally Posted By: thedeadidea
The debate is set.

The resolution

"Is Postmodern Satanism a reasonable position or worldview to hold ?"

4 rounds of debate including final arguments
3 rebuttals
500 word limit posts

The Affirmative argues first



+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The notion that the biosphere of Earth operates primarily through an adversarial vein is not something I invented. It's merely something scientists have been observing ever since they started being honest.

Think about it for a second. Reflect on it. Predator-prey. Parasitic organisms. Etc. You would be hard pressed to find the counterexample in nature. Symbiosis is rare, and always exists as a buffer to said adversarialism. True altruism is also extremely hard to find. It exists almost as a proof of the Rule.

I'm not arguing WHY here. Only THAT. Lions don't lie down with lambs, they slaughter them. And they are in turn slaughtered by a pack of hyenas. Which then draw the vultures. And then we get to the microbes. Some have been "tamed," sure. But most of them are trying to use their hosts as soil, which as any virologist can attest, is not usually good for us (or any host).

As a worldview, Postmodern Satanism is just the recognition of this facticity. And also that this exact facticity has led to Betterment (the Luciferian Current). By virtue of this neverending conflict, both predator and prey have had to adapt to each others' adaptations. And as a continuing result, they have all become necessarily BETTER through this adversarial stream of existence.

Now look, what is the counterpoint? I'm sure Michael will come up with something. But whatever it is he comes up with, can it defeat this basal recognition of the world? Can it defeat lions? Eagles? Jellyfish? E Coli? Influenza? Or the very vector that makes all of these things (and everything else you can name) adversarial?

I don't think so.


The thing about looking at 'facticity' and hiding the value claims is one does not need to say much of anything. One could look at the Pentagram and interpret the elements as a basic 'facticity' we need the earth beneath our feet, the suns rays over our head, we need water, we need air and we could interpret 'ether as either the emergence of life or the necessity of space. Either way I have pointed out five 'constant' or points that empirical science (as well as common sense) would tell us are necessary for life. In fact my five elements give rise to life, in as much as most food chains start with a photosynthetic process...

Would you care ? You feeling like converting to my order of the Pentagram ? Feel like a righteously justified motherfucking treehugger? Probably not, you probably couldn't give a shit.

All I have done is taken some novel facts wrapped them in a box and said 'this right here is me'... If I wrapped up your computer and gave it to you for christmas you again wouldn't be greatful... Why ? Because there is nothing new in the box. Nothing that by rights should not be yours anyway.

At this point the Adversity you hold in your hand is a big abstract akin to saying "I have a red object in my hand." Asking me then to "Guess the shape."

The only thing you have brought thus far is the facticity of the world and a hidden value claim as to say 'ta dah...y'. Further what does one get out describing the world as adversarial? A notion of historical teleology progress can be gained quite interdependently of the need to call it lucificarian. What is it you have thus far described other than the most novel and arbitrary of human observation ?

What are the specific claims ?

What are the narratives you are building ?

Why is the description significant ?

What specifically is generative or the byproduct of the discourse?

Are you arguing your own iteration of Postmodern Satanism or Postmodern Satanism in a generalized sense ?

Etc Etc Etc. The world can be anyway it wants to be, whether you can describe it any better than a grade schooler is another story entirely.

Top
#101189 - 06/27/15 11:08 PM Re: Postmodern Satanism gets PWNED [Re: Dimitri]
thedeadidea Offline
member


Registered: 08/15/10
Posts: 209
 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
For starters... fuck your rules.

Onward to Postmodern Satanism....
Is it reasonable? As much as the preacher on the corner of your street is.

Satanism in itself contains a certain skeptical mindset.. just like Postmodernism does. Bringing the two "labels" together seems to be a redundant exercise.

As mentioned before by SIN3, things are still being analyzed from a subjective point of view (anthropocentrism).

I'm not going to say it isn't a reasonable position/worldview to hold.. but I've seen better.


The rules are there simply for my and Jason to stick to. You and anyone else can say what they like to whom they like.

Top
#101192 - 06/28/15 12:56 AM Re: Postmodern Satanism gets PWNED [Re: thedeadidea]
Dark Magician Offline
member


Registered: 04/24/14
Posts: 150
Just to clarify: I don't think Jason ever intended his book with its title Postmodern Satanism to lead the reader to think that Satanism and Postmodernism were being joined.

The "Postmodern" was intended to refer to Post-LaVey, where LaVey was modern and this book by Jason was referring to a post La-Veyan thought. That was my understanding.

Also facticity and Postmodernism are fundamentally differing concepts, in my view. Facticity is located in the phenomenological/existential tradition. And while Postmodernism shares some of this lineage, it is far more concerned with how facticity is a cultural/subjective/political construct or product.

Finally, I would add that the application of words such as adversarial, or betterment, to facticity can be a dangerous thing as that application is very close to an anthropomorphism or an idealism, in my opinion.

I feel that betterment is best replaced by the eternal return, and the adversarial by a more mundane or general approach such as active and reactive forces. This approach I think would bear more fruit.

Top
Page 1 of 5 12345>


Moderator:  Woland, TV is God, fakepropht, SkaffenAmtiskaw, Asmedious, Fist 
Hop to:

Generated in 0.02 seconds of which 0.004 seconds were spent on 29 queries. Zlib compression disabled.