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#1921 - 11/15/07 09:42 AM Re: The Revolution Has Already Been Won [Re: Dev Samael Daval]
MCSA TEK Offline
pledge


Registered: 09/13/07
Posts: 97
Loc: Orlando Fl USA
NEW UPDATE

FBI RAIDS LIBERTY DOLLAR.

LINK

Aparently they came in and confiscated all the gold and silver. Including the customer owned gold and silver stored in the bank that actually backs the paper certificates.

Like I said earlier, The Government was simply waiting for the gold and silver levels to build to the highest point possible before they simply came in and took it.


Article
************************************************

Dear Liberty Dollar Supporters:


I sincerely regret to inform you that about 8:00 this morning a dozen FBI and Secret Service agents raided the Liberty Dollar office in Evansville.


For approximately six hours they took all the gold, all the silver, all the platinum and almost two tons of Ron Paul Dollars that where just delivered last Friday. They also took all the files, all the computers and froze our bank accounts.


We have no money. We have no products. We have no records to even know what was ordered or what you are owed. We have nothing but the will to push forward and overcome this massive assault on our liberty and our right to have real money as defined by the US Constitution. We should not to be defrauded by the fake government money.


But to make matters worse, all the gold and silver that backs up the paper certificates and digital currency held in the vault at Sunshine Mint has also been confiscated. Even the dies for mint the Gold and Silver Libertys have been taken.


This in spite of the fact that Edmond C. Moy, the Director of the Mint, acknowledged in a letter to a US Senator that the paper certificates did not violate Section 486 and were not illegal. But the FBI and Services took all the paper currency too.


The possibility of such action was the reason the Liberty Dollar was designed so that the vast majority of the money was in specie form and in the people’s hands. Of the $20 million Liberty Dollars, only about a million is in paper or digital form.


I regret that if you are due an order. It may be some time until it will be filled... if ever... it now all depends on our actions.


Everyone who has an unfulfilled order or has digital or paper currency should band together for a class action suit and demand redemption. We cannot allow the government to steal our money! Please don’t let this happen!!! Many of you read the articles quoting the government and Federal Reserve officials that the Liberty Dollar was legal. You did nothing wrong. You are legally entitled to your property. Let us use this terrible act to band together and further our goal – to return America to a value based currency.


Please forward this important Alert... so everyone who possess or use the Liberty Dollar is aware of the situation.


Please click HERE to sign up for the class action lawsuit and get your property back!

If the above link does not work you can access the page by copying the following into your web browser. http://www.libertydollar.org/classaction/index.php

Thanks again for your support at this darkest time as the damn government and their dollar sinks to a new low.


Bernard von NotHaus

*****************************************************
_________________________
Read about this great Patriot and Vote!
http://www.ronpaul2008.com/

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#1922 - 11/15/07 12:58 PM Nothing won... Scams even here... [Re: MCSA TEK]
ta2zz Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 1552
Loc: Connecticut
Hello Chris,

Keep in mind the questions put forth in this post are directed to the reader unless you are directly named…

 Originally Posted By: MCSA TEK

Aparently they came in and confiscated all the gold and silver. Including the customer owned gold and silver stored in the bank that actually backs the paper certificates.

Like I said earlier, The Government was simply waiting for the gold and silver levels to build to the highest point possible before they simply came in and took it.


Who in their right mind could read that website and not see a money making scam and this being the solution was surely nothing but a pipedream? I will also point out that there is little on the internet that says anything about this… So I will admit I do not know the validity of this so called email from liberty dollar HQ…

IRS Suffers Defeat: Wages Paid in Gold and Silver Coin

I attach this link because while a different situation it seems to skirt around the laws behind gold and silver value and face value of coins of precious metals (not tokens)…

Assuming this raid and confiscation are true… Lets visit this scam site again…

From the liberty dollar faqs…

“What prevents the Government from seizing the silver/ gold that's stored in Sunshine Minting before or after the customer purchases it? The Government has seized it before so are they allowed to do it again?
The opportunity for the government to seize the gold/silver at Sunshine "before or after" any purchase is very small due to the quick turn-around time on all orders.”


So order fast…

“The only perceived risk is to the gold/silver that is stored for the Gold and Silver Certificates issued as warehouse receipts.”

What? The only perceived risk is the gold and silver that backs the liberty dollar might be confiscated? Is that not the single most important thing that was making this paper anything? Hold your silver tokens what are they worth now? Less than half spot value? Do you wish to purchase tokens or ingots now? Back to the faqs…

Perceived risk because the government has never seized any warehouse receipts because there has never been any warehouse receipts like the Liberty Dollar.”

Is this an admission of guilt? What I read here is the Government has never confiscated something like this, because it is such a new way to scam… But now that we are using it well were expecting it… So buy fast cause we have a fast turn around to get these slugs errr tokens into your hands…

“Plus it is doubtful that the government would want to risk any seizure and hand Liberty Dollar the enormous publicity and draw their unbacked currency into the public spotlight.”

What publicity? How many do you know who has even heard of the Liberty Dollar? I read much more about the failing U.S. dollar than anything ever about this scam…

Except here and I still stand behind my belief that this was originally posted to dupe us and try to make money off of us… Sad really…

They go on to say this…

“As for a general seizure like the Roosevelt Confiscation of 1933, this is utterly impossible simply because the public attitude towards the government has changed and most importantly because gold is now a free commodity on the world market. Any seizure by any government, particularly the US government would drive gold and silver to unheard of prices. And as the government cannot confiscate without paying market value, it would be impossible for the government to outrun the escalating prices on the world market. To learn more why confiscation is utterly impossible, please read Chapter 28, page 244 in "Liberty Dollar Solution" book available for only $5 if you mention this post.”

To learn more send us five of your worthless American dollars yes just $5 and we will send you this pamphlet explaining the “Liberty Dollar Solution”…

“The possibility of such action was the reason the Liberty Dollar was designed so that the vast majority of the money was in specie form and in the people’s hands. Of the $20 million Liberty Dollars, only about a million is in paper or digital form.”

From the site on digital dollars…

“All this is a big deal for the Liberty Dollar because over 98% of all transactions do not use notes. They use digital dollars. Just think of how many times you use a check or credit/debit card and you will begin to understand that the Liberty Dollar needed to be in digital form to be successful. Now America's inflation proof currency is available in digital, physical, and paper certificate form.”

Seems like they were pushing the digital form as a good thing…

“I regret that if you are due an order. It may be some time until it will be filled... if ever... it now all depends on our actions.”

Did it ever depend on anything else? Most scams do depend on you falling for it…

“Everyone who has an unfulfilled order or has digital or paper currency should band together for a class action suit and demand redemption. We cannot allow the government to steal our money! Please don’t let this happen!!! Many of you read the articles quoting the government and Federal Reserve officials that the Liberty Dollar was legal. You did nothing wrong. You are legally entitled to your property. Let us use this terrible act to band together and further our goal – to return America to a value based currency.”

Good luck see you in 10 or 20 years… Laws are written in double talk to be interpreted at a later date… Do you know how the legal system works?

“Please forward this important Alert... so everyone who possess or use the Liberty Dollar is aware of the situation.”

Note nothing is posted on their website about this… If all their computers were taken how did they email? How come the website says nothing?

I would think this front web page worthy…

So perhaps everyone who possess, tries to use, or sell the Liberty Dollar should have been aware of this possible situation and this next one that I have provided a link to... Note this is dated Oct. 2006.

'Liberty Dollars' Can Buy Users A Prison Term, U.S. Mint Warns

“Thanks again for your support at this darkest time as the damn government and their dollar sinks to a new low.”

I say they stopped a scam in my eyes, in some eyes it might be seen as protecting the Governments way, others might see it as the public being protected…

“Liberty Dollars are very reasonable given the costs and quality involved. And of course they provide much more protection and profit than the US dollar.
We chose - therefore we are free.”


Where is your protection or profit now? How free does choosing to be get you? Perhaps we should ask some people in jail or some prisoners of war how free they are because they choose…

Seems the majority of people on the site MCSA TEK posted the link to thinks this was just a scam… The fact that not many have added anything to this thread is an indicator that most here feel what needs to be said has been… Also that not many disagree with anything said…

So Samael, You insult me with your jokes of do I know how the monetary system works and your jokes of my likeness straining to carry ingots stamped on my own coin, sending me a steel reinforced ingot purse, etc…

Do you have anything to add? Do YOU know how the laws and legal system work in this country? Anything to say at all on your previous position in this matter?

Good day

~T~


Edited by ta2zz (11/15/07 12:59 PM)
_________________________
We are the music makers, And we are the dreamers of dreams. ~Arthur William Edgar O'Shaughnessy

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#1924 - 11/15/07 05:42 PM Re: Nothing won... Scams even here... [Re: ta2zz]
MCSA TEK Offline
pledge


Registered: 09/13/07
Posts: 97
Loc: Orlando Fl USA
The concept was a good and solid idea. It was a Dollar backed by gold, just like in the old days.

The mistake was in forgetting that governments dislike competition. The government simply waited for the most opportune moment to step in and take their shit. I expect a good amount of the gold will mysteriously disappear. Sad to say, but what else can you expect.

Sam, If you have any of the Ron Paul dollars, PM me. I'm interested in acquiring one.

Chris


Edited by MCSA TEK (11/15/07 05:43 PM)
_________________________
Read about this great Patriot and Vote!
http://www.ronpaul2008.com/

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#1947 - 11/16/07 11:56 AM Re: Nothing won... Scams even here... [Re: MCSA TEK]
ta2zz Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 1552
Loc: Connecticut
 Originally Posted By: MCSA TEK
The concept was a good and solid idea. It was a Dollar backed by gold, just like in the old days.


“Make money, do good and have fun” Sounds like the makings of a good solid solution to me… If your solution is selling speakers or pre-framed poster art out of a van…

Just like the pyramid scams in the 70's - 80's they were good solid ideas... For the man on top…

You go on to identify the problem in your statement...

What made this illegal? The use of the words “coins” and “dollars” among having a USD domination stamped into it... Basically it was private counterfeit money... That in one of my last posts I showed the companies stand on using it was “just use it”… Say very little…

You also seem to have much trust in this self proclaimed "Monetary Architect" that and the fact that there was actually anything backing up this crap other than his words on a website...

 Quote:
The mistake was in forgetting that governments dislike competition.


Did you read all of my post? It is on their site…

“The only perceived risk is to the gold/silver that is stored for the Gold and Silver Certificates issued as warehouse receipts.”

 Quote:
I expect a good amount of the gold will mysteriously disappear. Sad to say, but what else can you expect.


Again you seem to have so much trust in this scam that you have already decided that if the gold is not there that it must be the governments doing not Bernard von NotHaus pulling a fast one… Even his name sounds fake…

Funny what comes up if you Google Bernard von NotHaus…

New Rarity and Bad Press February 9, 2004

Gypsies, Tramps and Thieves

"threatening" letters have been received via certified mail by all the RCOs and myself from Daniel P. Shaver, chief counsel for the US Mint. The "Treasury Letter" re-hashed the Mint's warning and informed all of us that the Department of Justice has determined that the Liberty Dollar is illegal as per 18 USC Section 486. Of course, that is grossly erroneous as 486 only pertains to passing or uttering an item of gold or silver as government "coin" "legal tender" or "current money."

This is exactly what you were told to do just try to use them and say little…

The Liberty Dollar has never been passed or uttered as government money and they should know that, hence the use of the propaganda machine to extinguish the Liberty Dollar. I think the government is afraid to take the Liberty Dollar to court because they know the law and know that they cannot get a conviction.

I think the government was just waiting until they had enough evidence to prosecute… Nothing more nothing less…

This little excerpt from November 2006 can be found here…

LIBERTY DOLLAR UNDER ATTACK

More dirt

FBI has been investigating the Liberty Dollar since August 2005

 Quote:
Sam, If you have any of the Ron Paul dollars, PM me. I'm interested in acquiring one.


Good luck as people are learning to “Have fun, Do good and Make money” with the Ron Paul dollars on Ebay

Peace

~T~
_________________________
We are the music makers, And we are the dreamers of dreams. ~Arthur William Edgar O'Shaughnessy

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#2033 - 11/19/07 05:15 PM Re: Nothing won... Scams even here... [Re: MCSA TEK]
Meq Offline
Banned
active member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 861
It sounded like a reasonable idea, but still - people who lost money off it were nevertheless duped.

I'd be cautious in investing any money in a scheme vulnerable to 'intervention' by governments or others.


Edited by Mequa (11/19/07 05:17 PM)
Edit Reason: 'Intervention'

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#2034 - 11/19/07 05:22 PM Re: Nothing won... Scams even here... [Re: MCSA TEK]
Meq Offline
Banned
active member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 861
Of course, if you can get your hands on real gold and silver, it may be a good investment in the face of the falling Dollar (for Americans that is).

But I would strongly recommend an improved security system for keeping large quantities of precious metal, for thieves break in and steal.
Good job you are allowed to arm yourselves over there!

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#2042 - 11/19/07 05:57 PM Re: Nothing won... Scams even here... [Re: Meq]
ta2zz Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 1552
Loc: Connecticut
 Originally Posted By: Mequa
It sounded like a reasonable idea, but still - people who lost money off it were nevertheless duped.


The only people not ripped off are the guys making big American money off of these play coins on ebay...

 Quote:
I'd be cautious in investing any money in a scheme vulnerable to 'intervention' by governments or others.


I would be cautious investing in any "scheme" period...

What exactly are you saying here?
_________________________
We are the music makers, And we are the dreamers of dreams. ~Arthur William Edgar O'Shaughnessy

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#2045 - 11/19/07 06:10 PM Re: Nothing won... Scams even here... [Re: Meq]
ta2zz Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 1552
Loc: Connecticut
 Originally Posted By: Mequa
Of course, if you can get your hands on real gold and silver, it may be a good investment in the face of the falling Dollar (for Americans that is).


Oh that is what you were getting at in the last post... Real precious metals are a good investment...

 Quote:
But I would strongly recommend an improved security system for keeping large quantities of precious metal, for thieves break in and steal.
Good job you are allowed to arm yourselves over there!


Wow more commonsense... What happened a name change a color change and poof posting to raise the post count or what?

Has your internet been kidnapped?

So would you buy ingots for the spot price or would you put your money into play coins that are half spot value or less?

Would it matter if you could get your face on them?

Do you think a steel reinforced purse is needed to carry a normal days spending money in ingots?

How do you feel about one who first shows off his understanding of advertising and then tries to use it on us?

What is your opinion of the legality of trying to spend play money as real government money?

Anything at all to add?

Peace

~T~


Edited by ta2zz (11/19/07 06:19 PM)
Edit Reason: reason #6
_________________________
We are the music makers, And we are the dreamers of dreams. ~Arthur William Edgar O'Shaughnessy

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#2046 - 11/19/07 06:16 PM Re: Nothing won... Scams even here... [Re: ta2zz]
MCSA TEK Offline
pledge


Registered: 09/13/07
Posts: 97
Loc: Orlando Fl USA
There is an old saying; "Not worth the paper its printed on." Those who purchased the gold or silver coins get at least the value of that metal. Its considered the same as a token. In other words its considered basic bullion. They loose some minor value.


As for the fools who purchased the paper money. Well, there is the value of the paper. Which is zero.

We cant all be rocket scientists.

Chris
_________________________
Read about this great Patriot and Vote!
http://www.ronpaul2008.com/

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#2047 - 11/19/07 06:31 PM Re: Nothing won... Scams even here... [Re: MCSA TEK]
ta2zz Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 1552
Loc: Connecticut
 Originally Posted By: MCSA TEK
There is an old saying; "Not worth the paper its printed on." Those who purchased the gold or silver coins get at least the value of that metal. Its considered the same as a token. In other words its considered basic bullion.


Which we have already pointed out the spot value on one of those coins is a fraction of its illegal face value… Also as stated before in this thread this is separate from any intrinsic value… Which we can see by simply looking for a RPD on Ebay…

 Quote:
They loose some minor value.


Minor value, funny when talking of the dollars collapse you can say such a thing…

 Quote:
As for the fools who purchased the paper money. Well, there is the value of the paper. Which is zero.


Did you forget intrinsic value already? Now those who had electric dollars well they truly have nothing…

 Quote:
We cant all be rocket scientists.


Never thought we were trying to be anything but aware, using reason instead of fantasy to guide us…

Peace

~T~
_________________________
We are the music makers, And we are the dreamers of dreams. ~Arthur William Edgar O'Shaughnessy

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#2062 - 11/19/07 10:52 PM Re: Nothing won... Scams even here... [Re: ta2zz]
Meq Offline
Banned
active member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 861
 Originally Posted By: ta2zz
So would you buy ingots for the spot price or would you put your money into play coins that are half spot value or less?


Play coins which could likely become worth a fraction of their spot value due to surprise government busts? Nah, I'll pass.

 Quote:
Would it matter if you could get your face on them?

Nah, it's a great way to sell them though. More money from the gullible.

 Quote:
Do you think a steel reinforced purse is needed to carry a normal days spending money in ingots?

No, a safe is needed to store them. They can hardly replace cash or credit for everyday transactions.
But since I am from the UK, this isn't relevant to my everyday life as yet. The pound is doing just fine against the dollar.

 Quote:
How do you feel about one who first shows off his understanding of advertising and then tries to use it on us?

Reminds me of those NLP trainers selling courses on 'manipulation'.
The joke's on the punters who pay thousands to learn hyped-up pseudoscientific crap.
Or, indeed, investment schemes...

 Quote:
What is your opinion of the legality of trying to spend play money as real government money?

I have nothing against it morally, but in practical terms the government has the power to kick your ass for pissing it off, having its own vested interest in maintaining its monopoly of currency.

 Quote:
Anything at all to add?


Yes.
Those led to take unreasonable risks here for the principle of liberty are falling prey to conmen who play on their moral sensibilities as a means to exploit them.

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