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#103740 - 11/05/15 09:45 AM Re: The Greater Church of Lucifer [Re: Dan_Dread]
SIN3 Offline
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Bingo.^

Community is bullshit anyway. Even the most so-called supportive group falls to conflict. There's all sorts of dead orgs, websites, and groups that rose to the 'occasion' (*cough* trend) and imploded upon itself at some point.

Intellectually bankrupt corpses. That's all they are.

If people need guruism to get on in this world, they must live such empty lives.
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#103743 - 11/05/15 01:07 PM Re: The Greater Church of Lucifer [Re: SIN3]
Zeno Offline
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Registered: 03/15/15
Posts: 149
I am unsure if a Satanist can judge Luciferians by Satanic standards, they are two different outlooks, even if they both identify with the Left Hand Path.

Of what I know of the leaders, they seem to have a level head, and have invested serious money in their "church." I think it is worth giving it a year and waiting to see how GCOL evolves over time.
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#103744 - 11/05/15 04:57 PM Re: The Greater Church of Lucifer [Re: Zeno]
Oxus Offline
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Satanists are not even fit to judge other Satanists by what I see in this thread. Satanism and Luciferianism I agree, are two different paradigms.
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#103745 - 11/05/15 05:09 PM Re: The Greater Church of Lucifer [Re: SIN3]
Oxus Offline
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Registered: 04/15/10
Posts: 550
Where did I state "these two groups have made 'changes'" ?
Simple questions yes, but they have nothing to do with what I am 'going on about'.

I regret posting here and should have known better, nothing has changed if anything it is worse . . . *bites tongue

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#103746 - 11/05/15 05:29 PM Re: The Greater Church of Lucifer [Re: SIN3]
Czereda Offline
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Registered: 03/14/11
Posts: 2157
Loc: Poland
 Quote:
Community is bullshit anyway.


I don't think so. People are social animals and tribal ones too. A religion provides the sense of community, comradery between people. Take, for example, secular humanism. It doesn't call itself a religion but, for sure, it is a substitute for a religion catering to many Atheists who lost their faith in God but still have the religious ethos. These people feel a kind of void after losing the community their local church provided and they miss the rituals that would somehow marked and commemorated the rites of passage in their lives. To put it more simply, they need to celebrate in a ritualized manner the important events in their lives.

So they now have humanist weddings, funerals, "baptisms" and other rituals and ceremonies. I watched some of them on YouTube after they gained popularity in Poland and laughed as they were so damn sentimental. On the other hand, who am I to judge? It seems that most people have an emotional need for a ritual. I read there are even humanist services which resemble a lot Christian church services with music, scientific lectures instead of sermons and banquets instead of the Holy Communion. Why do people need all of this if they don't believe in any god? Couldn't they do with meeting friends in the pub, going out to the concerts and movies, studying at the university etc? There are so many ways to entertain yourself and socialize without formal rituals and ceremonies, still... Does that mean these people are somehow socially awkward or is this something else? Perhaps, the need for a religion or quasi religion is so strong because it satisfies basic and primal human needs and instincts?

 Quote:
Even the most so-called supportive group falls to conflict. There's all sorts of dead orgs, websites, and groups that rose to the 'occasion' (*cough* trend) and imploded upon itself at some point.


It all depends on how you understand "community." The basic definition is: the condition of sharing or having certain attitudes and interests in common. Certain attitudes and interests, not all. So it could mean any group of people sharing similar interests. It's still possible to be a part of the group and keep autonomy. This is why conflicts happen. Besides, people can switch from one group to another.

This forum is called community too. People here are different but how many Christians, Jews and Muslims do you have here?

 Quote:
If people need guruism to get on in this world, they must live such empty lives.


I watched only one of Ford's videos but he sounds more like an academic teacher. I tried to read some of his writings some time ago but they were boring as fuck and quite complicated. A guy giving long, monotonous and pedantic lectures about ancient origins of Lucifer is hardly a material for a guru.

The Greater Church of Lucifer resembles a lot the Church of Satan in its basic precepts and also structure; hierarchy, spokespersons for the Church, applications and questionnaires for leaders etc. The difference between them and TST is, I think, the lack of any clear political and social goals. From what is written on their website they rather focus on the "spiritual development" of the members while the Satanic Temple cares more about political campaigns. However, they both take care to present a positive image to the general public.

Leadership must maintain an appropriate image as representatives of the organization. This means that leadership will not involve themselves with any type of scandal that could reflect negatively on the Church. Any report of scandal will result in an internal investigation and the leadership may be required to go before the heads of the Church after the investigation is complete to justify their actions.

Leadership must maintain a positive public image at all times. This will include dress while representing the Church. While on camera and/or leading meetings each leader must dress and be groomed in order to show the appearance of respectability and good hygiene.


https://greaterchurchoflucifer.org/leadership-in-the-gcol/


Edited by Czereda (11/05/15 05:33 PM)
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#103748 - 11/06/15 05:20 AM Re: The Greater Church of Lucifer [Re: Czereda]
SIN3 Offline
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Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 7210
Loc: Virginia
Simple, every person casts a value judgement because we can. To say "Well, who am I to judge?" has been impressed upon the mind so often that I wonder if its ever considered for thought.

 Quote:
The results of the GCoL as well as the Satanic Temple (another fave of yours) speaks louder than ANYTHING I have ever experienced / witnessed from yourself or most / any Satanist.

Creating a change in general reality calls for more than driveling on some abandoned forum about how everyone/thing is useless except what YOU have in mind (this too goes for Sexy Sin)


Results + Change in general reality = Value judgement.

The impassioned go after what they want. Those that either don't know, or would have another tell them what that should be, ride on the backs of dead corpses. Shoot that Zombie in the fucking head.

Participating in the 'conversation' on Fox News or the Podium of a leased space is for whom exactly?



"Hey Rick Scott, stop trying to make those kids pray in school!"
*Rabble, rabble... Bitch... Bitch* Still becomes Law.

When a group forms around an ideal, you could call it a 'community' that caters to their primal need to tribe but I see something else.

 Quote:
now have humanist weddings, funerals, "baptisms" and other rituals and ceremonies.


In spite of a portrayal of limits, people just seem helpless to get what they want. To work in, or around a system in place.

A gay wedding, abortion, moment of silence, a pothole filled, a place to talk shop or peddle the latest 'good'.

 Quote:
A guy giving long, monotonous and pedantic lectures about ancient origins of Lucifer is hardly a material for a guru.


The point is, the information is accessible to anyone and you don't need Ford as a filter. It's just lazy and the brain learns not to make personal effort. As I've stated countless times, this isn't about Ford, or what Ford is doing for himself, it's the people that follow him around like the proverbial Lucy's Daddy. "Spoon feed me!"

The GCoL doesn't need clear political goals, it only needs to open its doors. "Look, a Luciferic Church that's REAL instead of just a website!" Over the years plenty have come and gone from Ford's cult, either from having outgrown it or becoming dissatisfied with what he's offering for 'Spiritual Development'. Enlightenment and blah blah...

Satanism/Luciferianism has become gobbeldygook for feeling special and apart from a mass, not part of a community. We all have access to the commentary here and our interpretations obviously differ. Why they differ, gets to the heart of the matter I think.



Edited by SIN3 (11/06/15 05:28 AM)
Edit Reason: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akDsHTdGDCc
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#103750 - 11/06/15 10:51 AM Re: The Greater Church of Lucifer [Re: SIN3]
Bette Doom Offline
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Registered: 06/18/11
Posts: 134
Loc: Virginia, USA
The search for "communities" that appeal to our needs as self-expressive individuals is one of the weirdest things about the postmodern condition to me. With almost the sole exception of Jewish persons (and we could even argue that), all attempts to reforge some vanishing sense community and/or tribal identity belie themselves and represent something new and radically different than that which they seek to revive or reclaim. I'm thinking of things like Euro-pagan reconstructionism, the Afro-centric Black Consciousness movement, and the flowering of Radical Traditionalist philosophy between the Industrial Revolution and the end of Modernism. All of these attempt the Sisyphean task of "rebuilding" that which was never built, something that grew like a tree rather than rising like an edifice. Bad news folks, the tree has been severed, the cord is cut, and the Dharmic bull is poised precariously on one leg, never to recover its balance before the End.

The paradox lies in the nature of the impulse to build these communities and the nature of organic communities themselves. Dan Dread already pointed out the inherent absurdity of most of these attempts, but I would respectfully disagree with SIN's later remarks that "all community is bullshit." Instead, I'd offer a very modest qualification.

The "communities" in which membership is a matter of indivudual choice and self-expression are actually weaker and more tenuous than their weakest member because they rely on something as fluid and unreliable as personal opinion and voluntary affiliation. By contrast, the group identities in which a person has NO choice are those which make all the difference in the world. Consider the situation of a White anti-racist. Such a person belongs to two "communities," one ideological and built on shared 'ideas and values' and one that over which he has zero control over his affiliation with. In the end, no matter how you slice it, even such a person is obliged to admit that his affiliation with the latter group (white people) has an inescapable and undeniable effect on the character and contours of his life experience, one which will persist regardless of any action he personally takes to disavow or mitigate it. Even in the CONTEXT of his anti-racism, the pre-existing and unchosen identity will govern what that means. It is exactly the fact that this affiliation is beyond his scope of control which makes it more determinative.

Really my only point here. It's an intractable paradox to adopt something as a matter of personal self-expression and treat it like a "tribe." The nature of a tribe precludes that sort of individual ownership over one's affiliation with it, by definition.

Don't believe me? Just look at the real genius of old Christendom, when that was a thing, or its replacement in the form of supranational political organizations today. It "worked" as a cohesive force pursuing specific real-world ends and it frankly doesn't matter one bit if all or even most of its members are True Believers or not. It's not necessary to "buy in" to a real community, the really tricky part is buying out.


Edited by Bette Doom (11/06/15 10:53 AM)
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#103751 - 11/06/15 11:07 AM Re: The Greater Church of Lucifer [Re: Bette Doom]
SIN3 Offline
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Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 7210
Loc: Virginia
Maybe another example might be better suited for lack of choosing. I live in Virginia Beach, I'm counted not only among that 'Community' (whether I want to or not) but also by neighborhood, financial demographic and a bunch of other identifiers. So when politicians take the podium to speak to their 'Community' or voters represent a group, you'll be made part of it whether you ignore it or not. SS# and Locale assure that.

I say that they are bullshit in the sense of needing to belong to it. Similarly you get the drive by comment here by newbies believing they are made part of this 'community' by posting here.

While it's true that the site uses the term in a specific context, when we sign up we agree beforehand to be made part of it, even if it doesn't technically behave like one. Not in any real meaningful way.

It comes up a lot. Back when I was trolling Tom Blackwood, people were getting so mindfucked by what they were viewing that it gave me pause. THIS little video assignment was much like a homework lesson. You want community? Tell me what it is, what it does and how its relevant to your way of living.
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#103752 - 11/06/15 11:35 AM Re: The Greater Church of Lucifer [Re: SIN3]
Bette Doom Offline
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Registered: 06/18/11
Posts: 134
Loc: Virginia, USA
I didn't mean to "check" you at all, just pointing out the thing that's super-weird and paradoxical to me. Ever notice that it's only because we now have mass international communication, the exact thing which derascinated and obliterated all these cutesy tribal cultures that we're able to engage in "revival" attempts anyway? Like I really really hope that Death is ultimate and final because I don't like to picture Erik the Red sitting on a cloud next to Sitting Bull and Emperor Claudius and observing their "traditions" being resown and absorbed through Internet culture.

I'm glad you brought up the site, too, because I can't even decide whether 600 Club would fall into one or the other category. Kind of proves the thesis though, because just the fact that it's not going anywhere shows you that there's something holding the works together beyond "cohesion." As long as the figure of Satan is culturally relevant and the bill is paid, 600 Club will persist. Even more telling, the phenomenon of "Devil's advocacy" existed long before and will certainly outlive this virtual public house. Satanists are the most interesting of creatures to place under this kind of lens because I would absolutely argue that what you have there is more or less a tribe which is not a community. I'm going to ironically call it a tribe even though it proliferates through ideas and not genetic replication (or does it?) because it's a group drinking from the same proverbial well and that particular well pleases no other group to drink from.
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#103754 - 11/06/15 12:13 PM Re: The Greater Church of Lucifer [Re: Bette Doom]
SIN3 Offline
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Registered: 05/14/13
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I didn't take it that way at all, it's a valid point I sought to expand upon.

I don't think the willingness to discuss certain subject matter is enough to qualify the site as tribe. Peruse the forum, there's plenty of people that post here that don't agree on certain points for the very reasons you say no other group would drink from the same well. Many have abandoned their accounts, some of been banned and well others linger here for reasons I'll never understand. Maybe they hope to be made the Devil's people?

I guess it's akin to the notion that we are peers. If I buck this it's because there are many here that are so unlike me, the way I think and live that I would hardly consider them able to peer review a single idea. Opine, sure, beyond that? No way.

At best, some may pass a smell test. Not much else.


For shiggles, I just ran across THIS OLD TOPIC pretty sure 2/3 are banned.


Edited by SIN3 (11/06/15 12:37 PM)
Edit Reason: Added link
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#103758 - 11/06/15 12:50 PM Re: The Greater Church of Lucifer [Re: SIN3]
Bette Doom Offline
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Registered: 06/18/11
Posts: 134
Loc: Virginia, USA
You're right...perfectly right. The site and its users are not a "tribe" by any means. I very sloppily confused "Satanists" with "members and readers of 600 Club." Even then, it's definitely a liberal usage, and I fixate on the word "tribe" because I don't have any better one. If it is any sort of "tribe," its unlike any other, and the aggregate entity comprised of "Satanists" should be expected to look like nothing else. That said, since I can't shake the certainty that many if not most people are not actually capable of Satanism, and stated affiliation with Satanism is about the least relevant measure of it I can think of, I'll just stick to the word tribe until I have a better one. My God we sure pick up on more from the Jews than they or we should ever be inclined to admit publicly.
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#103759 - 11/06/15 12:58 PM Re: The Greater Church of Lucifer [Re: Bette Doom]
SIN3 Offline
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Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 7210
Loc: Virginia
I think the general aesthetic of the place works. Club. A discussion club. Maybe earlier carnations of it treated it more VIP with a pecking order. This has since gone away, at least the public form of it. Still, I think there's an invisible velvet rope.

As you can see you're still Yellow. While mine was stripped when Level 2 was deleted by the janitors last clean up. I hear back room discussions went something like "Favortism, Fanboyism, Over my dead body will a new blue be made!" haha

Some Blues were kept and others stripped, a new Green was made recently; it's all very clubbish vs. tribish.

In some cultures, when you're kicked out of a tribe, it's usually followed by an honor killing, or at least exile to a desolate existence.

Here, my guess is these folks just end up on Facebook.
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#103787 - 11/07/15 09:09 AM Re: The Greater Church of Lucifer [Re: SIN3]
Oxus Offline
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Registered: 04/15/10
Posts: 550
"The degree of Satanism that I see the most promise in are the pro-active Satanists. They have been called “Post Modern”, “Evolutionary”, and even “Next Phase”. These are the Satanists that stand as Individuals, but recognize that in order to bolster their Individualism, they need to stake a claim in the direction of our society and species. They recognize that Satanism is about “vital existence”, and they work along three lines; self-development, establishing an example through their efforts for others and the working toward mutual benefit, and working for the development of Satanism as a philosophy. They tend to avoid the forums unless there is some need for them to be there, and are more often expressing their Satanic Will in some manner in the real world rather than on the internet. These are the Satanists on the cutting-edge, the ones nudging the whole society toward that potential that exists but is denied"

- Jason Sorrell

I guess one needs to define their own Satanism 'within' certain definitions otherwise it's no longer Satanic. This is what Luciferians must do as well with Luciferianism.

In a very simplistic understanding, Satanists identify with our carnal / objective existence expressing themselves through words and actions, while Luciferians express themselves through semiotics.

Within these definitions both Satanist and Luciferian seek to create a general world reality that is embraced as the true reality, the Luciferian in order to propagate the Light and for the Satanist in order to live in a harmonious world.

My conclusion remains; "The results of the GCoL as well as the Satanic Temple speak louder than ANYTHING I have ever experienced / witnessed from yourself or most / any Satanist."

Now, maybe I did overstep my exclamation, after all Anton and the CoS did place Satanism on the map creating a slow-burning fuse that has indeed resulted in where we are today. But, in many ways Anton's and Lt.Col. Aquino's early media presentations are exactly the same as what the Satanic Temple and the GCoL are executing these days.

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#103789 - 11/07/15 12:05 PM Re: The Greater Church of Lucifer [Re: Oxus]
SIN3 Offline
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Registered: 05/14/13
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Ox, really. Harmonious world? Sounds like an opiate of the mind. What results specifically?

In my 41 years, at any time, I could scream from a podium, disrupt a public meeting or lease a joint and call it a church. Is that the harmony you speak of? How is any of that Satanic or Luciferic for that matter, especially if these aren't things I'm interested in doing? Why should I be?

When you say that LaVey placed it on the map, what are you even talking about? The Satanic is but a word to describe deeds that do not seek harmony. They seek to disrupt it.

LaVey lived during a different era which accounts for the ruckus the identity pin caused. By the panics of the 80's/90's you had every asshat with something to prove on talk shows, exposes and documentaries looking for acceptance. Today? It's become so mundane that a cock-eyed guy can throw on some horns, have bake-sales and art exhibition and it's nothing more than social entertainment.

*golf clap*

So what's really changed? It's much of the same shit we've been seeing for the better part of 25 years.
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#103793 - 11/07/15 01:24 PM Re: The Greater Church of Lucifer [Re: SIN3]
Oxus Offline
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Registered: 04/15/10
Posts: 550
 Originally Posted By: SIN3
Ox, really. Harmonious world? Sounds like an opiate of the mind. What results specifically?

In my 41 years, at any time, I could scream from a podium, disrupt a public meeting or lease a joint and call it a church. Is that the harmony you speak of? How is any of that Satanic or Luciferic for that matter, especially if these aren't things I'm interested in doing? Why should I be?

Harmonious as in a Satanic world where everyone is on the same page . . . you do believe in what you preach, right? Then accordingly it would be harmonious to see others live Satanically . . . unless I am mistaken and you don't identify as a Satanist any longer?

 Quote:
When you say that LaVey placed it on the map, what are you even talking about? The Satanic is but a word to describe deeds that do not seek harmony. They seek to disrupt it.
In general reality, no one in the world before 1967 really was on board the Satanic ship per se.

 Quote:
LaVey lived during a different era which accounts for the ruckus the identity pin caused. By the panics of the 80's/90's you had every asshat with something to prove on talk shows, exposes and documentaries looking for acceptance. Today? It's become so mundane that a cock-eyed guy can throw on some horns, have bake-sales and art exhibition and it's nothing more than social entertainment.
Well, I can agree with that, but that's not the point I'm trying to make.

 Quote:
*golf clap*

So what's really changed? It's much of the same shit we've been seeing for the better part of 25 years.
General world awareness to western left hand path ideology and practices is what's changed, perhaps not on this nihilistic forum but it has and is changing . . . try not to fuck it up for once ;\)

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