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#13361 - 10/23/08 08:51 PM Re: What is the mechaism of ritual magic? [Re: BlacKAcRE66]
97and107 Offline
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Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 267
Loc: New Mexico
I'm rather in love with the beauty of the technological age myself. Those who fail to see the vibrant and potent force of magick in the *living* beauty of nature as it is today may as well bury themselves in the history books, and burn themselves with them.

So you seem to agree that science is good but rationalism is bad? There's nothing rational about most religion, and the scientific method is very rational. So are you just letting off some steam or do you actually have something new to bring to the table?

In response to the original poster, ritual is just a prop...the real power is held in the mind and the physics that connect anything and everything, unseen, hidden, mysterious, waiting to be pierced by science. So, occult...and yes it is very magickal.

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#13372 - 10/24/08 01:11 AM Re: What is the mechaism of ritual magic? [Re: 97and107]
BlacKAcRE66 Offline
pledge


Registered: 10/22/08
Posts: 59
Loc: California
 Originally Posted By: 97and107
I'm rather in love with the beauty of the technological age myself. Those who fail to see the vibrant and potent force of magick in the *living* beauty of nature as it is today may as well bury themselves in the history books, and burn themselves with them.

So you seem to agree that science is good but rationalism is bad? There's nothing rational about most religion, and the scientific method is very rational. So are you just letting off some steam or do you actually have something new to bring to the table?


No rationalism is not bad, because it helps us to reason...Whether we have a more material or spiritual outlook, we need rationalism...suppose you heard a voice suddenly in your head telling you to harm yourself or someone else. You are not gonna do that...Your are first probably going to say holy shit! what the hell is this? then you are going to say why am I hearing this or feeling this? We cannot take anything on just face value or on a leap of faith.

If I seem to be letting off some steam I apologize, I was probably irritated by another poster who seemed to treat me like I was a Pentecostal...You post one damn thing that does not seem to fit in the box of other people's logic or worldview they wanna crucify you...I need to take a break from the computer, so I'll end it here.

Have a nice evening if you read this tonight.
_________________________
~The power to deny is as the power of myth~

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#13603 - 10/28/08 11:33 PM Re: What is the mechaism of ritual magic? [Re: coelentrate]
frankinstien Offline
stranger


Registered: 10/28/08
Posts: 16
I'm new to this site and I read over a little of the Satanic Bible. It seems that when LaVey is talking about Magic and spells he's really talking about magic and spells, or is he? Is LaVey really implying on a more subtle yet cynical note that the power of magic lies in the influence of suggestion and the placebo effect?
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#13624 - 10/29/08 05:20 PM Re: What is the mechaism of ritual magic? [Re: frankinstien]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3810
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Hi frank. I'll teach you one thing about Satanists that might serve you;as a rule we don't spoon feed information to people too lazy to do their own research.

Everything you asked is clearly explained in the Satanic Bible.
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#13857 - 11/04/08 03:32 PM Re: What is the mechaism of ritual magic? [Re: BlacKAcRE66]
AnOpenHand Offline
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Registered: 09/30/08
Posts: 32
Loc: England
I mean just because we can say this is that, and it works like this and then call it scienece and poo poo 'magic' doesn't explain how it got there in the first place, and does it really make it any less magical?
I agree that magic is discovering and learning to develop the power we each have and learning how it relates to our surroundings. Deities and rituals are ways of pin pointing that power, and opening the mind up to accept what perhaps before were unacceptable. Our societies are so dumbed down herds of consumer cattle, meeting truly self aware and sentient people in your day to day lifeis hard enough.
Any way digression, I'd say we are the mechanism to our rituals.
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ASSHOLES AND ELBOWS YOU KNOW THE DRILL!!!

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#15557 - 12/05/08 08:45 PM Re: What is the mechaism of ritual magic? [Re: coelentrate]
Fabiano Offline
member


Registered: 09/06/08
Posts: 374
 Originally Posted By: coelentrate
According to Laveyan Satanism?

Sometimes it seems to be personal psychological motivation to go out and act to bring about your desired change.

Sometimes, the supernatural is implied.


This point was slightly addressed in another thread. See this post from which I conclude later that if it's possible to put your ideas in some distant dreamer's mind, there logically must be a communication mean over which these ideas transit.

There is not proof of such communication mean, but unproven does not implies unreal. So, what's supernatural? Just unproven, or not yet discovered? What else?

For answering the question "What is the mechanism of ritual magic?", I would say that:
- lesser magic has nothing to do with the supernatural
- most of ritual is psychodrama

Based on my own experience, the "mechanism" of my personal magic can me summarised to:
- Will, Volition
- Intuition. Listening to my subconscious.
- Auto-manipulating myself. Modelling my own mind in order to better deserve my goals.


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#15581 - 12/06/08 05:09 AM Re: What is the mechaism of ritual magic? [Re: Fabiano]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
 Quote:
There is not proof of such communication mean, but unproven does not implies unreal. So, what's supernatural? Just unproven, or not yet discovered? What else?


Or not real.

I don't subscribe to the rule that unproven does not imply unreal. Actually it could easily be unreal as it is/was in many cases. Think of all the theories that failed upon the ability to provide evidence contradicting its findings.

D.

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#15606 - 12/06/08 09:55 AM Re: What is the mechaism of ritual magic? [Re: Diavolo]
Fabiano Offline
member


Registered: 09/06/08
Posts: 374
Unreal, not real : synonyms for me.

I think that all theories are promised to face, one day or an other, some complexity of the reality they can cope with. All theories will one day or an other be faced with evidence contradicting some of his findings.

Regarding the fact you not subscribe with
unproven does not imply unreal.

1. Let's note proven as "P" and Real as "R" and analyse it with frist orrder logic:

2. Not subscribing to ~P does not implies ~R
can be noted as "~P does not implies ~R = False"
by double negation : ~P implies ~R = True (~P -> ~R = True)
and by tansposition, R -> P = True

In plain English, this gives "Real implies Proven". To me you're excluding from your reality all things that will be proved tomorrow but not yet proved today...

Or Am I misunderstanding you?
Or there is a flawn in my first order logic reasoning ?

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#15620 - 12/06/08 02:28 PM Re: What is the mechaism of ritual magic? [Re: Fabiano]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
In my opinion there is a difference between proven is real and unproven is not unreal.

The first case doesn't leave many options open, when it is proven it is real. The second is a bit of a non-statement, giving the suggestion that it might be real even when it isn't proven as such. The problem is that it might just as good be unreal but that's not the conclusion the statement pushes us to.

In the case of option two, unicorns can exist. It's unproven that they exist but that doesn't mean they are unreal. Actually, it is very likely that they are unreal.
It's the same can of worms agnosticism opens: unproven doesn't imply god is not.

D.

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#15628 - 12/06/08 04:21 PM Re: What is the mechaism of ritual magic? [Re: Diavolo]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
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Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
It comes down to something basic and simple.

What you believe you can control.
If you want the whole thing to work, then just do it.

You put all your intent/force of will into a little psychodrama and you KNOWINGLY suspend reality for a moment.

Then "push" it.

Thats it.

The psychodramas vary from century to century, or idea to idea, but aside form those other variables, its all the same shit.

You believe you can do something, then you do something to make it occur inline with your thoughts.

Morgan
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#15633 - 12/06/08 06:25 PM Re: What is the mechaism of ritual magic? [Re: Diavolo]
Fabiano Offline
member


Registered: 09/06/08
Posts: 374
Yes basic logic: Proven implies Real is equivalent to Unreal implies unproven (P->R <=> ~R->~P).

But there is a kind of gap in the "scope" these equivalent assertions cover. They say nothing about real unproven things.

I think our "mindmaps" (the model of the world we have in our mind - as in the map is not the terrain) differ in that way:

- probably your is a good representation of the real proven "world". But your borders are sharp. Once you cross that border, it's suddenly all blank. When something new is discovered, you extend your map.
- I hope mine is also pretty good at describing the real proven world. But my border are more gradutated, shaded off. There is a grey zone where, from the hard black real proven reality, there is a soft transition into the blank unreal area. I thing importance of greys was already mentioned...

On this I would like to submit a quote:

 Originally Posted By: Albert Einstein
I believe in intuition and inspiration. Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited, whereas imagination embraces the entire world, stimulating progress, giving birth to evolution. It is, strictly speaking, a real factor in scientific research.


Staying in the grey zone of the agnosticism has also some advantage.

Finaly, I'm not sure Albert's quote is completly off topic in this thread about magic...

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#15635 - 12/06/08 06:36 PM Re: What is the mechaism of ritual magic? [Re: Fabiano]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
A is B does not equal notA being notB.

You would need to know what A and notA are and because you lack info about notA, simply by it being unproven, you can't make a valid claim about what notA is or that notA is notB.

Else a statement like 'snow is white' thus 'not-snow is not-white' is also valid. Very funky logic.

Your idea that my world stops at what is proven is an assumption. I'm a materialist but at the same time I can support theories about subjects lacking evidence at the moment. All I debate is that your claim is flawed and supports how you think about things, not necessarily how reality is.

D.

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#15637 - 12/06/08 08:26 PM Re: What is the mechaism of ritual magic? [Re: Diavolo]
Fabiano Offline
member


Registered: 09/06/08
Posts: 374
About the "funky logic", just to avoid misunderstanding, I'm referring to predicate logic, in particular first order logic and using the Propositional calculus which is a part of the scientific mathematical field.

I don't know where you read "A is B" is equivalent to "~A is ~B" but surely not in one of my posts!

The transposition inference rule states "If p then q is equiv. to if not q then not p". For instance, "if snow is white" is equivalent to "if it's not white, it's not snow". And this is perfectly logic.

I agree about the assumption, that's why I said "probably". And it's just to illustrate our subject, don't take it personal. \:\)

I obviously know my map and thus know if I'm in the grey zone. I can take it into account when it comes to take a decision, to act...

Another view of the reality and our "knowledge relationship" to it is as follows:
Assuming there is an objective reality, the universe is there and all real. We don't invent anything; we're just uncovering the unknown, discovering the universe.
Only the map change, the laws of physic never changed, just our understanding which is more and more accurate & complex.

The "Science&Vie" of November 2008 (a scientific vulgarisation French magazine) titles "When scientifics cheat" on the cover page.
And the reality catches us up, more complex than we thought. The human factor enters the game, lobbying, money...

It's sometimes hard for individual like us to assess the trustability of scientific community. In addition, as the time when all the knowledge could be put in a single head is past and nowadays discoveries can hardly be reproduced and verified by any of us. There is some place for faith in the scientific community. (Faith in science?)

Finally,
 Quote:
All I debate is that your claim is flawed and supports how you think about things, not necessarily how reality is.

Which claim exactly? And where is the flaw?

All we know is a map and the map is not the terrain. On this we're all in the same shitty situation!
As long as I stay aware I'm in the unproven area and thus ready to accept this assumption can be one day proved to be false/unreal, what's the issue?

Now, I'm free to use my immagination to draw what I want on the unproven/unknown area of my own map. Alike a child who would know only his street. He'll probably draw is street quite fidely, but on the nearby town where he never went, he'll not refrain the desire of drawing a wonderfull town or maye a town he can imagine according to what he heard about it, from his mother, etc.
Magic is also about being able to stay as a child. I just enjoy it ! \:\)
Now when the child will go down town, he'll have to update his map... But after all, is it not what the scientific do all the days? Making hypothesis, confronting to experimentation, concluding by confirmation or infirmation of the hypothesis?

Again, think about Einstein’s quote. I think he also said (in substance) “If an idea is not crazy at first glance, it’s probably not a great idea.”

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#15644 - 12/06/08 09:49 PM Re: What is the mechaism of ritual magic? [Re: Fabiano]
Fabiano Offline
member


Registered: 09/06/08
Posts: 374
Sorry for posting again so quickly. Just an idea which poped up in my head and which I think fits well in this thread. Just a short story:

A while ago I applyied to a management position at work. I read the official description of the function, had chat with friends & colleagues which were already in such position,...
I had to make an idea of what was the role, the responsabilities, the day to day work, etc. I was promoted and I had to confront my ideas against the hard reality. I just updated my map...


Now, for getting this job I had to demonstrate my abilities, I hard worked for it! Why? Because I was motivated. In other words, I had a strong desire to make it. Of course the salary increase weighted quite heavily in this desire, but you still have some freedom for drawing your representation of the job, visualising it. Here is part of the magic: more attractive you'll picture it, and more desire you'll raise ... but harder will be the confrontation with reality when you have the job!
The more interresting part of the magic is that you have interrest to have a strong and clear and precise representation of your job as it will drive your general behaviour when you will enter the function. In that way you can shape your job; customising it to your inclinations, your desire.

If you behave according to this strong clear precise representation, you have an advantage over the sheeps who have a fuzzy idea of what they're supposed to do and even of what they want to do. They're ideas are not more clear about what you're supposed to do.

If you have a strong, clear and precice representaion of your job before having it you don't feel to be in a blank area of your map when you get the job, you don't have that bad feeling of bieng in the unknown. You act according to your view and if others have a blank or fuzzy representation of your job, they'll adapt their map according to your.

So you're free to make it as you like, the magic will operate ;\)

Oh yeah, just a last word: such representation work much better when it's implanted in the subcounscious. Keeping it at the discursive neo-cortex level is of few interrest for a magician. The rituals are props for doing this implantation.
The goal is there, drop it in the subcounscious. Up to you to find you means as long as you attain your goal.


Edited by Fabiano (12/06/08 10:09 PM)
Edit Reason: just last word...

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#15672 - 12/07/08 05:49 AM Re: What is the mechaism of ritual magic? [Re: Fabiano]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
I don't have all the time so I'll respond to this one first.

Seriously, what is so magick about this?

I at times am hired to do a job I actually don't know that well or lack experience in. Not something that troubles me a lot, so when I have conversations with the employer in such situations, I just plain lie at times. Of course I don't take a job I am clueless about but I know a lot, am good at improvising and seriously, most isn't as hard as people like to present it. It's a world for average-Joes out there and if you ain't average, things are way easier.

So I lie about my experience or steer the subject into my directions while at the same time playing the guy or girl. It works like a charm.

That's magick I assume. Dropping things into their subconsciousness and such, but hell, it's just plain basic psychology and being a cheat. I don't have the need to use a frame of grandeur to surround it with. If I destroy my belief-systems, I don't feel the need to embrace another.
Why would I do that? To color life?

Na, I can handle it in all its pale colors.

Now if you wanna believe in magick feel free, nothing is going to stop you but if I can accomplish the same thing without believing into it, or actually wasting one second performing rituals, what's the conclusion? Me being a supermagus?

Make your own conclusions, I make mine.

D.


Edited by Diavolo (12/07/08 05:55 AM)

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