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#15673 - 12/07/08 06:24 AM Re: What is the mechaism of ritual magic? [Re: Fabiano]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Your starting statement which I replied to, and that causes all this logic whatever was:

 Quote:
There is not proof of such communication mean, but unproven does not implies unreal. So, what's supernatural? Just unproven, or not yet discovered? What else?


To which I replied: not real, including the option you left out. Your options, in language and interpretation, steer the reader to assume it is therefor a probability. It might not be.

Unproven does imply REAL or NOT REAL.

D.

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#15710 - 12/07/08 04:01 PM Re: What is the mechaism of ritual magic? [Re: Diavolo]
Fabiano Offline
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Registered: 09/06/08
Posts: 374
First, I just related a personal experience and gave my point of view on it. I also thought it was an appropriate answer to the initial question.

You ask where is the magic. To me it's just magic explained. It's not because I suddenly provide a rational explanation of it that its nature changes.

So, in brief, I give my point of view on my magic and this point of view is quite rational, not so far from your after all. So, what's the issue ?
It's just about the point of view taken for reporting on the same thing. Just two models for describing the same reality, one rational, the other magical.

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#15712 - 12/07/08 04:14 PM Re: What is the mechaism of ritual magic? [Re: Fabiano]
Diavolo Offline
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Ok, I assumed it was to explain what magick was or how it works. Your position on it is somewhat confusing.

I do know magick is form at some levels and that ritual does something, to use a very simple word, but I don't think this something can be everything.
I don't even want to debate it too much here because some don't see the form and are stuck inside which inevitable leads to a yes-no game which isn't worth the words.

D.

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#15713 - 12/07/08 04:14 PM Re: What is the mechaism of ritual magic? [Re: Diavolo]
Fabiano Offline
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Registered: 09/06/08
Posts: 374
On this, I couldn't stay silent :
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
Else a statement like 'snow is white' thus 'not-snow is not-white' is also valid. Very funky logic.


On this
 Quote:
Unproven does imply REAL or NOT REAL.
I fully agree.

But notice that, logically, "REAL or NOT REAL" is everything. Like a natural number which is "odd or not odd", is just any natural number.
So, in the unproven, eveything is possible ! That's a good new from the magical perspective ! ;\)

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#15714 - 12/07/08 04:18 PM Re: What is the mechaism of ritual magic? [Re: Fabiano]
Diavolo Offline
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Not really, in the unproven, nothing is known, which is way different than everything is possible. Implying everything is possible is bending it to fit your demands.

Of course assuming unproven also means not having supporting evidence.

D.

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#15716 - 12/07/08 04:55 PM Re: What is the mechaism of ritual magic? [Re: Diavolo]
Fabiano Offline
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Registered: 09/06/08
Posts: 374
Yes, I had also the impression we were falling in some everlasting ping-pong posts exchange. \:D

The thread being about the "mechanism of ritual magic" I'm forced to refer to both models for answering and it can be indeed confusing...

I'm happy we managed to have a better understanding of the other's point of view.

We're all different and particular individuals. We all have our own map, our own magic. Some are very meterialist and amongst them, some use rituals and some others not. Some are more inclined to the occult and the magic, some use rituals and some others not.

I enjoy being able to both converse rationaly with materialists and add my 2 cents in magic threads. \:D

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#17802 - 01/07/09 11:31 PM Re: What is the mechaism of ritual magic? [Re: Diavolo]
frankinstien Offline
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Registered: 10/28/08
Posts: 16
 Quote:
There is not proof of such communication mean, but unproven does not implies unreal. So, what's supernatural? Just unproven, or not yet discovered? What else?


No no no! Supernatural is what you want to be real because its a convenience that helps support a theory or belief, e.g. parallel universes, time travel to the past and black holes create worm holes. Another example is M-Theory(String Theory) it needs a parallel universe to explain gravity, without a parallel universe M-Theory and a few careers and future books sales would disappear...

BTW: Time travel is absolutely dependant on parallel universes, ergo the need for a parallel universe so we can build a time machine so we can correct the mistakes of our past. How convenient...


Edited by frankinstien (01/07/09 11:39 PM)

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#17807 - 01/08/09 02:50 AM Re: What is the mechaism of ritual magic? [Re: frankinstien]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3153
 Quote:
Another example is M-Theory(String Theory) it needs a parallel universe to explain gravity, without a parallel universe M-Theory and a few careers and future books sales would disappear...

Don't you mean dimensions? For string-theory to actually work there are at least 5 dimensions needed, not universes. Also String-theory actually says the tiny strings of energy which are the most hypothetical base material of our matter, are locked within 5 bended dimensions and which lead to a constant deformation of the string of energy.

I don't know where you got the time travel from... But I suppose the idea was linked to the fact at once on sub-atomic level there is a chaotic world where time doesn't exist. Which I like to call (from Adam Douglas' hitchhikers guide to the galaxy) the general-mishmash.

link: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/elegant/program.html
General information about the theory explained.

Anyway, string-theory could be used to explain and show magic indeed exist. This by transferring the tiny energy-strings for certain purposes. However, as the Satanist I am, I put the statement into question and found some answers which will already blow the hypothese "magic by string-theory" away.
Most easiest: It cannot be proven String-theory indeed is right. Also, the strings can't be detected since they are billions time smaller then atoms. Therefor you are working with (scientifically spoken) something "non-existing" or something hypothetical.

Maybe it was a bit off-topic, but since I already encountered some people claiming string-theory explains the mechanisms of magic and "why they are that all-powerfull warlocks or witched or magicians..". With this information I give some reference if someone ever encounters such a situation. Or for the main part: opinions about it.


Edited by Dimitri (01/08/09 02:58 AM)
Edit Reason: Link added + extra information.
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#17823 - 01/08/09 11:55 AM Re: What is the mechaism of ritual magic? [Re: Dimitri]
frankinstien Offline
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Registered: 10/28/08
Posts: 16
 Quote:
Don't you mean dimensions? For string-theory to actually work there are at least 5 dimensions needed, not universes.


No I don't mean dimensions. String theory failed to explain gravity with all its 11 or so dimensions. The problem with gravity is that it is so weak in comparison to other fields such as electric fields and nuclear glue. So they came up with a parallel universe where gravity is as strong as any other field. Gravity then bleeds into other universes as a weak field.

String theory is an effort to explain everything in the universe but gravity proved to be beyond even string theory. Steven Hawking was cornered when his vaporization theory was challenged. He swore he would prove his theory and spent years working with an assistant. In the end what did he use to escape the death of his theory? You guessed it, a parallel universe.

So witches and warlocks if someone asks you to explain how your magic works just tell them it comes from a parallel universe...
;\)

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#17824 - 01/08/09 12:02 PM Re: What is the mechaism of ritual magic? [Re: frankinstien]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3153
 Quote:
The problem with gravity is that it is so weak in comparison to other fields such as electric fields and nuclear glue.

Modern physicists like me call it "electromagnetism".

 Quote:
So they came up with a parallel universe where gravity is as strong as any other field. Gravity then bleeds into other universes as a weak field.

First time I hear of it. Now, probably if they claim this they should actually have proof or other things a parallel universe indeed exists. Also, I find it hard to believe a parallel universe exists where gravity is as strong as electromagnetism. Are you sure you (or others) didn't made that part up to link physics towards magic?

 Quote:
So witches and warlocks if someone asks you to explain how your magic works just tell them it comes from a parallel universe...

So you actually believe I can shoot electric shots from my 11th finger?

I'd like some references for the material you posted..


Edited by Dimitri (01/08/09 12:55 PM)
Edit Reason: Something lost in translation.
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#17835 - 01/08/09 03:40 PM Re: What is the mechaism of ritual magic? [Re: coelentrate]
Mike Offline
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Registered: 09/11/07
Posts: 253
Loc: Farmingdale, NY
To me, the only answer I can come up with is the release of 'psychic energy' as directed by the power of the persons will. However in other magickal practices of course some believe there to be spirits and entity's that either grant things asked for during a ritual or you supposedly tap into positive or negative energy and "push it" toward your goal. For example, focussing negative energy on an enemy is supposed to bring him harm, or possibly death depending on the intensity of the working.

Just my 2 cents. Of course occultism is WAY more complex, but I've found these things to be the basic principles of the practice.
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#17839 - 01/08/09 05:17 PM Re: What is the mechaism of ritual magic? [Re: frankinstien]
Fabiano Offline
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Registered: 09/06/08
Posts: 374
 Quote:
So witches and warlocks if someone asks you to explain how your magic works just tell them it comes from a parallel universe...


The magic comes from Satan, it comes from you and your willpower!

Regarding parallel universes, Stephen Hawking, commenting the anthropic principle, mentionned that :
"In which sense can we say that different universes exist? If they're really separated, what happens in an other universe cannot have consequences observable in our one. This should be sufficient for that, because of the economy principe, we suppress them from the theory. But if, on the other hand, it's about isolated region of our universe..."

The hidden dimensions of our universe in the string theory is something else...

So the hidden dimensions could be the mean over which you can send ideas is some distant mind (provided you assume it's possible as said in TSB). But...
- the string theory is just... a theory
- the "distant mind communication" is unproven
- so, the hypothesis that the "distant mind communication" is done over the additional dimensions, is more than uncertain...

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#17840 - 01/08/09 05:33 PM Re: What is the mechaism of ritual magic? [Re: Mike]
Fabiano Offline
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Registered: 09/06/08
Posts: 374
 Quote:
Just my 2 cents. Of course occultism is WAY more complex, but I've found these things to be the basic principles of the practice.


 Originally Posted By: MCSA TEK
The core is simple.

A) There are three types of magic.

1) Controlling your own force.

2) Controlling the universal force

3) Manipulating entities to control forces for you.

B) Props are used as training wheels that allow your mind to grab and manipulate your chosen force. Props become unnecessary and power can eventually be wielded from within your own mind.

The next faze people seldom get to.

c) There exists the ability to see the threads of cause and effect that interconnect us. A realization that you cause all of your own problems. removes the need to use A or B.

Also by this point the mind should be in tune to the point where access to forces happens automatically at a subconscious level making casting completely unnecessary. The simplest way to explain this concept is: Your world is like it is because you have attracted it. What surrounds you is what you have inside of yourself. By changing your core, you improve your success. (A simple explanation of a complex concept)
(extract of this post)

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#17852 - 01/08/09 09:11 PM Re: What is the mechaism of ritual magic? [Re: Fabiano]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3935
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
 Quote:

the string theory is just... a theory

Ack, this old canard again.

Theory, as the word is used in a scientific context, is not a synonym for guess. Saying something is 'just a theory' doesn't make any sense in this respect, as to become a scientific theory, a hypothesis must explain phenomenon as well as be supported by evidence. A scientific theory must be falsifiable yet not falsified. A scientific theory is constantly tested and subject to scrutiny.

The word 'just' doesn't come into play.
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#17883 - 01/09/09 08:44 AM Re: What is the mechaism of ritual magic? [Re: Dan_Dread]
Fabiano Offline
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Registered: 09/06/08
Posts: 374
Agreed Dan, UI should have been more rigorous and my wording could have been better.

But the string theory is much more controversed than, for instance, the relativity. I also think that while many relativity predictions were confirmed by experience, there is a lack of such confirmations for the string theory thus preventing the two theories the have the same credit...

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