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#10383 - 07/30/08 05:17 PM What is the mechaism of ritual magic?
coelentrate Offline
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Registered: 07/07/08
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Loc: Dundee, Scotland
According to Laveyan Satanism?

Sometimes it seems to be personal psychological motivation to go out and act to bring about your desired change.

Sometimes, the supernatural is implied.

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#10403 - 07/31/08 05:40 AM Re: What is the mechaism of ritual magic? [Re: coelentrate]
coelentrate Offline
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Registered: 07/07/08
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Loc: Dundee, Scotland
Um, I should add that I'm asking about ritual magic in the Laveyan sense, not a theistic style.
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#10430 - 08/01/08 02:01 PM Re: What is the mechaism of ritual magic? [Re: coelentrate]
prhill Offline
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Registered: 07/31/08
Posts: 14
Loc: Chicago, Illinois
I am not sure if anyone really knows for sure. I think it is a way to get you motivated more to go after your goal and to remove the anxiety and negative thoughts that might come up. A Ritual should help make you confident and positive while working to get your desire. But also the emotional energy may send your thoughts and imagery out to the minds of anyone involved to help tip the odds in your favor. I don't know if this helps you or not but it is just some of my thoughts on the subject.
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#10435 - 08/01/08 08:06 PM Re: What is the mechaism of ritual magic? [Re: prhill]
Isabel Offline
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Registered: 07/19/08
Posts: 6
Loc: N. California
I have been making jewelery for a few years now and in this past year I have decided to sale much what I have made. For right now I sale what I make to friends at work just to get an idea of what some people like. Eventually I will go to the public with my craft so I will be studying different ideas of ritual to help me. Motivation is definitely one of the things that I will need, confidence and positive thinking also. I like to use many different ritual techniques and this time I am going to tap into some Laveyan techniques as well.
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#10447 - 08/02/08 06:18 PM Re: What is the mechaism of ritual magic? [Re: coelentrate]
Stag Offline
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Registered: 09/20/07
Posts: 84
LaVey left this one vague on purpose, I would imagine. All things to all people and all that.

Personally, I would forget about trying to find some sort of a "mechanism". That particular avenue of research is a dead end, believe me.

Stag

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#10464 - 08/03/08 05:36 PM Re: What is the mechaism of ritual magic? [Re: Stag]
Damian Offline
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Registered: 07/30/08
Posts: 26
Loc: Salem Mass
That is so true i have always felt if i psyche myself up before Ritual it really works well.Here is something i sometimes take a 5 hour energy drink before a Ritual talk about,WOW, LOL,,, ,,I do whatever it takes,but being an overly emotional person always helps to get a desired result from a Ritual,Damian
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#10465 - 08/03/08 07:47 PM Re: What is the mechaism of ritual magic? [Re: Damian]
Nemesis Offline
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Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2175
Loc: US
That's not a bad idea, Damian... the worst thing I've experienced during ritual is getting tired towards the end, which is when I need my energy at its peak!
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Nothing is sacred.

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#10469 - 08/04/08 09:48 AM Re: What is the mechaism of ritual magic? [Re: Nemesis]
prhill Offline
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Yes I agree the more emotional energy you can generate the better. Anton LaVey stressed that so often and I agree. It takes real mental focus on desire with very intense emotions until you get to a peak point where as a friend of mine put it you feel like you are having an "out of body experience mentally" because you are so mentally and emotionaly focused.
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#11087 - 08/28/08 05:05 PM Re: What is the mechaism of ritual magic? [Re: prhill]
Ringmaster Offline
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Registered: 04/07/08
Posts: 205
Loc: Salem Oregon
phrill,
You seem more worried about how others think a ritual should go, but all in all a ritual is about you and you only. Yes Lavey lays down a "guideline" but after that it's all on you.
My advice is to find what brings out the "beast" in you and use it to your advantage.
_________________________
Get off the cross and save yourself, I feel no pity for the cries of a weak man.

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#11152 - 09/01/08 11:14 PM Re: What is the mechaism of ritual magic? [Re: coelentrate]
Raziel LaVey Offline
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Registered: 08/27/08
Posts: 27
 Originally Posted By: coelentrate
Um, I should add that I'm asking about ritual magic in the Laveyan sense, not a theistic style.


Oh... I am a theist. I was about to touch on faith. I am very much into Demonolatry... You can think of it as a bit Catholic... As they prayed to Angels and whatnot... I have demons I pray to, my Patron being Belphegore. The Demons are particular energies you can tap into to fulfill will, so you can even develope particular pantheons... Or Demons you pray to or "work with" if you prefer, on a regular basis.

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#11203 - 09/04/08 05:21 PM Re: What is the mechaism of ritual magic? [Re: Raziel LaVey]
ta2zz Offline
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Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 1552
Loc: Connecticut

 Originally Posted By: Raziel LaVey
Or Demons you pray to or "work with" if you prefer, on a regular basis.

Do you talk with demons? Do they respond to you in mindspeak or can you hear their voices with both ears or only one? Is it just more of a feeling of knowing they are there? Like blind faith...

~T~
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#11234 - 09/05/08 10:14 PM Re: What is the mechaism of ritual magic? [Re: ta2zz]
Raziel LaVey Offline
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Registered: 08/27/08
Posts: 27
 Originally Posted By: ta2zz

 Originally Posted By: Raziel LaVey
Or Demons you pray to or "work with" if you prefer, on a regular basis.

Do you talk with demons? Do they respond to you in mindspeak or can you hear their voices with both ears or only one? Is it just more of a feeling of knowing they are there? Like blind faith...

~T~


... If only I didn't feel this was more for your entertainment.

I'll share it with you after we build some more rapport.

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#11689 - 09/21/08 10:02 AM Re: What is the mechaism of ritual magic? [Re: prhill]
Impius Offline
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 Originally Posted By: prhill
I am not sure if anyone really knows for sure. I think it is a way to get you motivated more to go after your goal and to remove the anxiety and negative thoughts that might come up. A Ritual should help make you confident and positive while working to get your desire.


I agree with it, to me the only possible effect of Greater Magic is self-persuasion, to put yourself in a good state in order to achieve your desires, without even noticing it you'll start acting in your life in the right way to get what you performed the ritual for. I don't really believe in mentalism, and rather think the only "supernatural" effects you could get are on yourself, like people loving the Christ enough to get stigmatas on their bodies.
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#11983 - 09/29/08 03:44 AM Re: What is the mechaism of ritual magic? [Re: Impius]
daevid777 Offline
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Registered: 08/30/07
Posts: 951
Loc: Hell's Pisshole, Texas
My brother is a magician...

He was born an orphan in a third world country, was a straight D-student all his life through grammar and high school. Class clown...

Joined the Army right after high school, put himself through college with a major in Biology. Went on to Medical School, passed his boards and is now a Pediatric Emergency Room Physician - saving children's lives everday. And this is but one example of what he is and of what he's capable...

My Christian brother, the TRUE magician.

What are you guys up to?
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#13326 - 10/22/08 10:53 PM Re: What is the mechaism of ritual magic? [Re: coelentrate]
BlacKAcRE66 Offline
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Posts: 59
Loc: California
In the ancient days before the dark ages of Christendom, man's life was magic in every respect. The magic of the great civilizations was involved in every affair. From Planting Crops to building Temples and whether or not to go to war with a rival. The whole purpose of magic was to work in concert with the laws of our universe. Some say Leonidis of Sparta had lost the war with the Persians because he did not heed the word of Prophets and Seers who relayed the word of the gods...The ancients did not practice Satanism, they practiced a science to help them plan their lives. Magic in my personal belief is applying science to will an event or objective while working in concert with the laws and forces in our universe. today Western rationalism has replaced our common system obviously as a result of Christendom. But hey thanks to Leonardo Davinci and all those others who were accused of being witches for bringing us medicine and biology. I hope whatever rituals you perform will be fruitful and a positive milestone. My rituals have not always yielded the desired result because at times I would forget something important...Where is this planet or that star or the lunar and solar positions. I still mess up on star charts and astrological forecast. I refer to three systems, Babylonian,Asian,Western.
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#13361 - 10/23/08 08:51 PM Re: What is the mechaism of ritual magic? [Re: BlacKAcRE66]
97and107 Offline
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Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 267
Loc: New Mexico
I'm rather in love with the beauty of the technological age myself. Those who fail to see the vibrant and potent force of magick in the *living* beauty of nature as it is today may as well bury themselves in the history books, and burn themselves with them.

So you seem to agree that science is good but rationalism is bad? There's nothing rational about most religion, and the scientific method is very rational. So are you just letting off some steam or do you actually have something new to bring to the table?

In response to the original poster, ritual is just a prop...the real power is held in the mind and the physics that connect anything and everything, unseen, hidden, mysterious, waiting to be pierced by science. So, occult...and yes it is very magickal.

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#13372 - 10/24/08 01:11 AM Re: What is the mechaism of ritual magic? [Re: 97and107]
BlacKAcRE66 Offline
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Registered: 10/22/08
Posts: 59
Loc: California
 Originally Posted By: 97and107
I'm rather in love with the beauty of the technological age myself. Those who fail to see the vibrant and potent force of magick in the *living* beauty of nature as it is today may as well bury themselves in the history books, and burn themselves with them.

So you seem to agree that science is good but rationalism is bad? There's nothing rational about most religion, and the scientific method is very rational. So are you just letting off some steam or do you actually have something new to bring to the table?


No rationalism is not bad, because it helps us to reason...Whether we have a more material or spiritual outlook, we need rationalism...suppose you heard a voice suddenly in your head telling you to harm yourself or someone else. You are not gonna do that...Your are first probably going to say holy shit! what the hell is this? then you are going to say why am I hearing this or feeling this? We cannot take anything on just face value or on a leap of faith.

If I seem to be letting off some steam I apologize, I was probably irritated by another poster who seemed to treat me like I was a Pentecostal...You post one damn thing that does not seem to fit in the box of other people's logic or worldview they wanna crucify you...I need to take a break from the computer, so I'll end it here.

Have a nice evening if you read this tonight.
_________________________
~The power to deny is as the power of myth~

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#13603 - 10/28/08 11:33 PM Re: What is the mechaism of ritual magic? [Re: coelentrate]
frankinstien Offline
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Registered: 10/28/08
Posts: 16
I'm new to this site and I read over a little of the Satanic Bible. It seems that when LaVey is talking about Magic and spells he's really talking about magic and spells, or is he? Is LaVey really implying on a more subtle yet cynical note that the power of magic lies in the influence of suggestion and the placebo effect?
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#13624 - 10/29/08 05:20 PM Re: What is the mechaism of ritual magic? [Re: frankinstien]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
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Hi frank. I'll teach you one thing about Satanists that might serve you;as a rule we don't spoon feed information to people too lazy to do their own research.

Everything you asked is clearly explained in the Satanic Bible.
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#13857 - 11/04/08 03:32 PM Re: What is the mechaism of ritual magic? [Re: BlacKAcRE66]
AnOpenHand Offline
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Registered: 09/30/08
Posts: 32
Loc: England
I mean just because we can say this is that, and it works like this and then call it scienece and poo poo 'magic' doesn't explain how it got there in the first place, and does it really make it any less magical?
I agree that magic is discovering and learning to develop the power we each have and learning how it relates to our surroundings. Deities and rituals are ways of pin pointing that power, and opening the mind up to accept what perhaps before were unacceptable. Our societies are so dumbed down herds of consumer cattle, meeting truly self aware and sentient people in your day to day lifeis hard enough.
Any way digression, I'd say we are the mechanism to our rituals.
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#15557 - 12/05/08 08:45 PM Re: What is the mechaism of ritual magic? [Re: coelentrate]
Fabiano Offline
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Registered: 09/06/08
Posts: 374
 Originally Posted By: coelentrate
According to Laveyan Satanism?

Sometimes it seems to be personal psychological motivation to go out and act to bring about your desired change.

Sometimes, the supernatural is implied.


This point was slightly addressed in another thread. See this post from which I conclude later that if it's possible to put your ideas in some distant dreamer's mind, there logically must be a communication mean over which these ideas transit.

There is not proof of such communication mean, but unproven does not implies unreal. So, what's supernatural? Just unproven, or not yet discovered? What else?

For answering the question "What is the mechanism of ritual magic?", I would say that:
- lesser magic has nothing to do with the supernatural
- most of ritual is psychodrama

Based on my own experience, the "mechanism" of my personal magic can me summarised to:
- Will, Volition
- Intuition. Listening to my subconscious.
- Auto-manipulating myself. Modelling my own mind in order to better deserve my goals.


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#15581 - 12/06/08 05:09 AM Re: What is the mechaism of ritual magic? [Re: Fabiano]
Diavolo Offline
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 Quote:
There is not proof of such communication mean, but unproven does not implies unreal. So, what's supernatural? Just unproven, or not yet discovered? What else?


Or not real.

I don't subscribe to the rule that unproven does not imply unreal. Actually it could easily be unreal as it is/was in many cases. Think of all the theories that failed upon the ability to provide evidence contradicting its findings.

D.

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#15606 - 12/06/08 09:55 AM Re: What is the mechaism of ritual magic? [Re: Diavolo]
Fabiano Offline
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Posts: 374
Unreal, not real : synonyms for me.

I think that all theories are promised to face, one day or an other, some complexity of the reality they can cope with. All theories will one day or an other be faced with evidence contradicting some of his findings.

Regarding the fact you not subscribe with
unproven does not imply unreal.

1. Let's note proven as "P" and Real as "R" and analyse it with frist orrder logic:

2. Not subscribing to ~P does not implies ~R
can be noted as "~P does not implies ~R = False"
by double negation : ~P implies ~R = True (~P -> ~R = True)
and by tansposition, R -> P = True

In plain English, this gives "Real implies Proven". To me you're excluding from your reality all things that will be proved tomorrow but not yet proved today...

Or Am I misunderstanding you?
Or there is a flawn in my first order logic reasoning ?

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#15620 - 12/06/08 02:28 PM Re: What is the mechaism of ritual magic? [Re: Fabiano]
Diavolo Offline
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In my opinion there is a difference between proven is real and unproven is not unreal.

The first case doesn't leave many options open, when it is proven it is real. The second is a bit of a non-statement, giving the suggestion that it might be real even when it isn't proven as such. The problem is that it might just as good be unreal but that's not the conclusion the statement pushes us to.

In the case of option two, unicorns can exist. It's unproven that they exist but that doesn't mean they are unreal. Actually, it is very likely that they are unreal.
It's the same can of worms agnosticism opens: unproven doesn't imply god is not.

D.

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#15628 - 12/06/08 04:21 PM Re: What is the mechaism of ritual magic? [Re: Diavolo]
Morgan Offline
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It comes down to something basic and simple.

What you believe you can control.
If you want the whole thing to work, then just do it.

You put all your intent/force of will into a little psychodrama and you KNOWINGLY suspend reality for a moment.

Then "push" it.

Thats it.

The psychodramas vary from century to century, or idea to idea, but aside form those other variables, its all the same shit.

You believe you can do something, then you do something to make it occur inline with your thoughts.

Morgan
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#15633 - 12/06/08 06:25 PM Re: What is the mechaism of ritual magic? [Re: Diavolo]
Fabiano Offline
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Posts: 374
Yes basic logic: Proven implies Real is equivalent to Unreal implies unproven (P->R <=> ~R->~P).

But there is a kind of gap in the "scope" these equivalent assertions cover. They say nothing about real unproven things.

I think our "mindmaps" (the model of the world we have in our mind - as in the map is not the terrain) differ in that way:

- probably your is a good representation of the real proven "world". But your borders are sharp. Once you cross that border, it's suddenly all blank. When something new is discovered, you extend your map.
- I hope mine is also pretty good at describing the real proven world. But my border are more gradutated, shaded off. There is a grey zone where, from the hard black real proven reality, there is a soft transition into the blank unreal area. I thing importance of greys was already mentioned...

On this I would like to submit a quote:

 Originally Posted By: Albert Einstein
I believe in intuition and inspiration. Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited, whereas imagination embraces the entire world, stimulating progress, giving birth to evolution. It is, strictly speaking, a real factor in scientific research.


Staying in the grey zone of the agnosticism has also some advantage.

Finaly, I'm not sure Albert's quote is completly off topic in this thread about magic...

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#15635 - 12/06/08 06:36 PM Re: What is the mechaism of ritual magic? [Re: Fabiano]
Diavolo Offline
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A is B does not equal notA being notB.

You would need to know what A and notA are and because you lack info about notA, simply by it being unproven, you can't make a valid claim about what notA is or that notA is notB.

Else a statement like 'snow is white' thus 'not-snow is not-white' is also valid. Very funky logic.

Your idea that my world stops at what is proven is an assumption. I'm a materialist but at the same time I can support theories about subjects lacking evidence at the moment. All I debate is that your claim is flawed and supports how you think about things, not necessarily how reality is.

D.

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#15637 - 12/06/08 08:26 PM Re: What is the mechaism of ritual magic? [Re: Diavolo]
Fabiano Offline
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Registered: 09/06/08
Posts: 374
About the "funky logic", just to avoid misunderstanding, I'm referring to predicate logic, in particular first order logic and using the Propositional calculus which is a part of the scientific mathematical field.

I don't know where you read "A is B" is equivalent to "~A is ~B" but surely not in one of my posts!

The transposition inference rule states "If p then q is equiv. to if not q then not p". For instance, "if snow is white" is equivalent to "if it's not white, it's not snow". And this is perfectly logic.

I agree about the assumption, that's why I said "probably". And it's just to illustrate our subject, don't take it personal. \:\)

I obviously know my map and thus know if I'm in the grey zone. I can take it into account when it comes to take a decision, to act...

Another view of the reality and our "knowledge relationship" to it is as follows:
Assuming there is an objective reality, the universe is there and all real. We don't invent anything; we're just uncovering the unknown, discovering the universe.
Only the map change, the laws of physic never changed, just our understanding which is more and more accurate & complex.

The "Science&Vie" of November 2008 (a scientific vulgarisation French magazine) titles "When scientifics cheat" on the cover page.
And the reality catches us up, more complex than we thought. The human factor enters the game, lobbying, money...

It's sometimes hard for individual like us to assess the trustability of scientific community. In addition, as the time when all the knowledge could be put in a single head is past and nowadays discoveries can hardly be reproduced and verified by any of us. There is some place for faith in the scientific community. (Faith in science?)

Finally,
 Quote:
All I debate is that your claim is flawed and supports how you think about things, not necessarily how reality is.

Which claim exactly? And where is the flaw?

All we know is a map and the map is not the terrain. On this we're all in the same shitty situation!
As long as I stay aware I'm in the unproven area and thus ready to accept this assumption can be one day proved to be false/unreal, what's the issue?

Now, I'm free to use my immagination to draw what I want on the unproven/unknown area of my own map. Alike a child who would know only his street. He'll probably draw is street quite fidely, but on the nearby town where he never went, he'll not refrain the desire of drawing a wonderfull town or maye a town he can imagine according to what he heard about it, from his mother, etc.
Magic is also about being able to stay as a child. I just enjoy it ! \:\)
Now when the child will go down town, he'll have to update his map... But after all, is it not what the scientific do all the days? Making hypothesis, confronting to experimentation, concluding by confirmation or infirmation of the hypothesis?

Again, think about Einstein’s quote. I think he also said (in substance) “If an idea is not crazy at first glance, it’s probably not a great idea.”

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#15644 - 12/06/08 09:49 PM Re: What is the mechaism of ritual magic? [Re: Fabiano]
Fabiano Offline
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Registered: 09/06/08
Posts: 374
Sorry for posting again so quickly. Just an idea which poped up in my head and which I think fits well in this thread. Just a short story:

A while ago I applyied to a management position at work. I read the official description of the function, had chat with friends & colleagues which were already in such position,...
I had to make an idea of what was the role, the responsabilities, the day to day work, etc. I was promoted and I had to confront my ideas against the hard reality. I just updated my map...


Now, for getting this job I had to demonstrate my abilities, I hard worked for it! Why? Because I was motivated. In other words, I had a strong desire to make it. Of course the salary increase weighted quite heavily in this desire, but you still have some freedom for drawing your representation of the job, visualising it. Here is part of the magic: more attractive you'll picture it, and more desire you'll raise ... but harder will be the confrontation with reality when you have the job!
The more interresting part of the magic is that you have interrest to have a strong and clear and precise representation of your job as it will drive your general behaviour when you will enter the function. In that way you can shape your job; customising it to your inclinations, your desire.

If you behave according to this strong clear precise representation, you have an advantage over the sheeps who have a fuzzy idea of what they're supposed to do and even of what they want to do. They're ideas are not more clear about what you're supposed to do.

If you have a strong, clear and precice representaion of your job before having it you don't feel to be in a blank area of your map when you get the job, you don't have that bad feeling of bieng in the unknown. You act according to your view and if others have a blank or fuzzy representation of your job, they'll adapt their map according to your.

So you're free to make it as you like, the magic will operate ;\)

Oh yeah, just a last word: such representation work much better when it's implanted in the subcounscious. Keeping it at the discursive neo-cortex level is of few interrest for a magician. The rituals are props for doing this implantation.
The goal is there, drop it in the subcounscious. Up to you to find you means as long as you attain your goal.


Edited by Fabiano (12/06/08 10:09 PM)
Edit Reason: just last word...

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#15672 - 12/07/08 05:49 AM Re: What is the mechaism of ritual magic? [Re: Fabiano]
Diavolo Offline
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I don't have all the time so I'll respond to this one first.

Seriously, what is so magick about this?

I at times am hired to do a job I actually don't know that well or lack experience in. Not something that troubles me a lot, so when I have conversations with the employer in such situations, I just plain lie at times. Of course I don't take a job I am clueless about but I know a lot, am good at improvising and seriously, most isn't as hard as people like to present it. It's a world for average-Joes out there and if you ain't average, things are way easier.

So I lie about my experience or steer the subject into my directions while at the same time playing the guy or girl. It works like a charm.

That's magick I assume. Dropping things into their subconsciousness and such, but hell, it's just plain basic psychology and being a cheat. I don't have the need to use a frame of grandeur to surround it with. If I destroy my belief-systems, I don't feel the need to embrace another.
Why would I do that? To color life?

Na, I can handle it in all its pale colors.

Now if you wanna believe in magick feel free, nothing is going to stop you but if I can accomplish the same thing without believing into it, or actually wasting one second performing rituals, what's the conclusion? Me being a supermagus?

Make your own conclusions, I make mine.

D.


Edited by Diavolo (12/07/08 05:55 AM)

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#15673 - 12/07/08 06:24 AM Re: What is the mechaism of ritual magic? [Re: Fabiano]
Diavolo Offline
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Your starting statement which I replied to, and that causes all this logic whatever was:

 Quote:
There is not proof of such communication mean, but unproven does not implies unreal. So, what's supernatural? Just unproven, or not yet discovered? What else?


To which I replied: not real, including the option you left out. Your options, in language and interpretation, steer the reader to assume it is therefor a probability. It might not be.

Unproven does imply REAL or NOT REAL.

D.

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#15710 - 12/07/08 04:01 PM Re: What is the mechaism of ritual magic? [Re: Diavolo]
Fabiano Offline
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Posts: 374
First, I just related a personal experience and gave my point of view on it. I also thought it was an appropriate answer to the initial question.

You ask where is the magic. To me it's just magic explained. It's not because I suddenly provide a rational explanation of it that its nature changes.

So, in brief, I give my point of view on my magic and this point of view is quite rational, not so far from your after all. So, what's the issue ?
It's just about the point of view taken for reporting on the same thing. Just two models for describing the same reality, one rational, the other magical.

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#15712 - 12/07/08 04:14 PM Re: What is the mechaism of ritual magic? [Re: Fabiano]
Diavolo Offline
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Ok, I assumed it was to explain what magick was or how it works. Your position on it is somewhat confusing.

I do know magick is form at some levels and that ritual does something, to use a very simple word, but I don't think this something can be everything.
I don't even want to debate it too much here because some don't see the form and are stuck inside which inevitable leads to a yes-no game which isn't worth the words.

D.

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#15713 - 12/07/08 04:14 PM Re: What is the mechaism of ritual magic? [Re: Diavolo]
Fabiano Offline
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Registered: 09/06/08
Posts: 374
On this, I couldn't stay silent :
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
Else a statement like 'snow is white' thus 'not-snow is not-white' is also valid. Very funky logic.


On this
 Quote:
Unproven does imply REAL or NOT REAL.
I fully agree.

But notice that, logically, "REAL or NOT REAL" is everything. Like a natural number which is "odd or not odd", is just any natural number.
So, in the unproven, eveything is possible ! That's a good new from the magical perspective ! ;\)

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#15714 - 12/07/08 04:18 PM Re: What is the mechaism of ritual magic? [Re: Fabiano]
Diavolo Offline
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Not really, in the unproven, nothing is known, which is way different than everything is possible. Implying everything is possible is bending it to fit your demands.

Of course assuming unproven also means not having supporting evidence.

D.

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#15716 - 12/07/08 04:55 PM Re: What is the mechaism of ritual magic? [Re: Diavolo]
Fabiano Offline
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Posts: 374
Yes, I had also the impression we were falling in some everlasting ping-pong posts exchange. \:D

The thread being about the "mechanism of ritual magic" I'm forced to refer to both models for answering and it can be indeed confusing...

I'm happy we managed to have a better understanding of the other's point of view.

We're all different and particular individuals. We all have our own map, our own magic. Some are very meterialist and amongst them, some use rituals and some others not. Some are more inclined to the occult and the magic, some use rituals and some others not.

I enjoy being able to both converse rationaly with materialists and add my 2 cents in magic threads. \:D

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#17802 - 01/07/09 11:31 PM Re: What is the mechaism of ritual magic? [Re: Diavolo]
frankinstien Offline
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Registered: 10/28/08
Posts: 16
 Quote:
There is not proof of such communication mean, but unproven does not implies unreal. So, what's supernatural? Just unproven, or not yet discovered? What else?


No no no! Supernatural is what you want to be real because its a convenience that helps support a theory or belief, e.g. parallel universes, time travel to the past and black holes create worm holes. Another example is M-Theory(String Theory) it needs a parallel universe to explain gravity, without a parallel universe M-Theory and a few careers and future books sales would disappear...

BTW: Time travel is absolutely dependant on parallel universes, ergo the need for a parallel universe so we can build a time machine so we can correct the mistakes of our past. How convenient...


Edited by frankinstien (01/07/09 11:39 PM)

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#17807 - 01/08/09 02:50 AM Re: What is the mechaism of ritual magic? [Re: frankinstien]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
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 Quote:
Another example is M-Theory(String Theory) it needs a parallel universe to explain gravity, without a parallel universe M-Theory and a few careers and future books sales would disappear...

Don't you mean dimensions? For string-theory to actually work there are at least 5 dimensions needed, not universes. Also String-theory actually says the tiny strings of energy which are the most hypothetical base material of our matter, are locked within 5 bended dimensions and which lead to a constant deformation of the string of energy.

I don't know where you got the time travel from... But I suppose the idea was linked to the fact at once on sub-atomic level there is a chaotic world where time doesn't exist. Which I like to call (from Adam Douglas' hitchhikers guide to the galaxy) the general-mishmash.

link: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/elegant/program.html
General information about the theory explained.

Anyway, string-theory could be used to explain and show magic indeed exist. This by transferring the tiny energy-strings for certain purposes. However, as the Satanist I am, I put the statement into question and found some answers which will already blow the hypothese "magic by string-theory" away.
Most easiest: It cannot be proven String-theory indeed is right. Also, the strings can't be detected since they are billions time smaller then atoms. Therefor you are working with (scientifically spoken) something "non-existing" or something hypothetical.

Maybe it was a bit off-topic, but since I already encountered some people claiming string-theory explains the mechanisms of magic and "why they are that all-powerfull warlocks or witched or magicians..". With this information I give some reference if someone ever encounters such a situation. Or for the main part: opinions about it.


Edited by Dimitri (01/08/09 02:58 AM)
Edit Reason: Link added + extra information.
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#17823 - 01/08/09 11:55 AM Re: What is the mechaism of ritual magic? [Re: Dimitri]
frankinstien Offline
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Registered: 10/28/08
Posts: 16
 Quote:
Don't you mean dimensions? For string-theory to actually work there are at least 5 dimensions needed, not universes.


No I don't mean dimensions. String theory failed to explain gravity with all its 11 or so dimensions. The problem with gravity is that it is so weak in comparison to other fields such as electric fields and nuclear glue. So they came up with a parallel universe where gravity is as strong as any other field. Gravity then bleeds into other universes as a weak field.

String theory is an effort to explain everything in the universe but gravity proved to be beyond even string theory. Steven Hawking was cornered when his vaporization theory was challenged. He swore he would prove his theory and spent years working with an assistant. In the end what did he use to escape the death of his theory? You guessed it, a parallel universe.

So witches and warlocks if someone asks you to explain how your magic works just tell them it comes from a parallel universe...
;\)

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#17824 - 01/08/09 12:02 PM Re: What is the mechaism of ritual magic? [Re: frankinstien]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
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 Quote:
The problem with gravity is that it is so weak in comparison to other fields such as electric fields and nuclear glue.

Modern physicists like me call it "electromagnetism".

 Quote:
So they came up with a parallel universe where gravity is as strong as any other field. Gravity then bleeds into other universes as a weak field.

First time I hear of it. Now, probably if they claim this they should actually have proof or other things a parallel universe indeed exists. Also, I find it hard to believe a parallel universe exists where gravity is as strong as electromagnetism. Are you sure you (or others) didn't made that part up to link physics towards magic?

 Quote:
So witches and warlocks if someone asks you to explain how your magic works just tell them it comes from a parallel universe...

So you actually believe I can shoot electric shots from my 11th finger?

I'd like some references for the material you posted..


Edited by Dimitri (01/08/09 12:55 PM)
Edit Reason: Something lost in translation.
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#17835 - 01/08/09 03:40 PM Re: What is the mechaism of ritual magic? [Re: coelentrate]
Mike Offline
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Registered: 09/11/07
Posts: 253
Loc: Farmingdale, NY
To me, the only answer I can come up with is the release of 'psychic energy' as directed by the power of the persons will. However in other magickal practices of course some believe there to be spirits and entity's that either grant things asked for during a ritual or you supposedly tap into positive or negative energy and "push it" toward your goal. For example, focussing negative energy on an enemy is supposed to bring him harm, or possibly death depending on the intensity of the working.

Just my 2 cents. Of course occultism is WAY more complex, but I've found these things to be the basic principles of the practice.
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#17839 - 01/08/09 05:17 PM Re: What is the mechaism of ritual magic? [Re: frankinstien]
Fabiano Offline
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Registered: 09/06/08
Posts: 374
 Quote:
So witches and warlocks if someone asks you to explain how your magic works just tell them it comes from a parallel universe...


The magic comes from Satan, it comes from you and your willpower!

Regarding parallel universes, Stephen Hawking, commenting the anthropic principle, mentionned that :
"In which sense can we say that different universes exist? If they're really separated, what happens in an other universe cannot have consequences observable in our one. This should be sufficient for that, because of the economy principe, we suppress them from the theory. But if, on the other hand, it's about isolated region of our universe..."

The hidden dimensions of our universe in the string theory is something else...

So the hidden dimensions could be the mean over which you can send ideas is some distant mind (provided you assume it's possible as said in TSB). But...
- the string theory is just... a theory
- the "distant mind communication" is unproven
- so, the hypothesis that the "distant mind communication" is done over the additional dimensions, is more than uncertain...

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#17840 - 01/08/09 05:33 PM Re: What is the mechaism of ritual magic? [Re: Mike]
Fabiano Offline
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Registered: 09/06/08
Posts: 374
 Quote:
Just my 2 cents. Of course occultism is WAY more complex, but I've found these things to be the basic principles of the practice.


 Originally Posted By: MCSA TEK
The core is simple.

A) There are three types of magic.

1) Controlling your own force.

2) Controlling the universal force

3) Manipulating entities to control forces for you.

B) Props are used as training wheels that allow your mind to grab and manipulate your chosen force. Props become unnecessary and power can eventually be wielded from within your own mind.

The next faze people seldom get to.

c) There exists the ability to see the threads of cause and effect that interconnect us. A realization that you cause all of your own problems. removes the need to use A or B.

Also by this point the mind should be in tune to the point where access to forces happens automatically at a subconscious level making casting completely unnecessary. The simplest way to explain this concept is: Your world is like it is because you have attracted it. What surrounds you is what you have inside of yourself. By changing your core, you improve your success. (A simple explanation of a complex concept)
(extract of this post)

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#17852 - 01/08/09 09:11 PM Re: What is the mechaism of ritual magic? [Re: Fabiano]
Dan_Dread Offline
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 Quote:

the string theory is just... a theory

Ack, this old canard again.

Theory, as the word is used in a scientific context, is not a synonym for guess. Saying something is 'just a theory' doesn't make any sense in this respect, as to become a scientific theory, a hypothesis must explain phenomenon as well as be supported by evidence. A scientific theory must be falsifiable yet not falsified. A scientific theory is constantly tested and subject to scrutiny.

The word 'just' doesn't come into play.
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#17883 - 01/09/09 08:44 AM Re: What is the mechaism of ritual magic? [Re: Dan_Dread]
Fabiano Offline
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Agreed Dan, UI should have been more rigorous and my wording could have been better.

But the string theory is much more controversed than, for instance, the relativity. I also think that while many relativity predictions were confirmed by experience, there is a lack of such confirmations for the string theory thus preventing the two theories the have the same credit...

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#17895 - 01/09/09 11:12 AM Re: What is the mechaism of ritual magic? [Re: Dimitri]
frankinstien Offline
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Registered: 10/28/08
Posts: 16
I did a little research on google and discovered that Stephen Hawking has now actually admited he is wrong about black holes and parallel universes!

http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2004/s1159816.htm

You see admitting to error is a good thing when it will improve your public image, but when its about establishing your image always defend your position to the death! ;\)

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#17897 - 01/09/09 11:21 AM Re: What is the mechaism of ritual magic? [Re: Dimitri]
frankinstien Offline
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Registered: 10/28/08
Posts: 16
Regarding M-Theory and parallel universes leaking gravity in our universe go to the link below and select the Escaping Gravity video.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/elegant/program.html

If your wife asks you about lipstick prints on your shirt don't panic, just tell her that you love her very much and you could never be with any other lover, but your double from a parallel universe is the one really cheating on her. ;\)


Edited by frankinstien (01/09/09 11:22 AM)

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#17898 - 01/09/09 11:24 AM Re: What is the mechaism of ritual magic? [Re: frankinstien]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3109
 Originally Posted By: frankinstien
I did a little research on google and discovered that Stephen Hawking has now actually admited he is wrong about black holes and parallel universes!

http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2004/s1159816.htm

You see admitting to error is a good thing when it will improve your public image, but when its about establishing your image always defend your position to the death! ;\)

This person only said Mr Hawkins admitted he made an error about black holes. Nothing else is said about parallel universes. At least the proove of their existance. Learn to read something before you provide your crap.

I never said/claimed black-holes don't exist. I have my opinions about it, but from what I know they haven't yet been told (at least not within this topic). This leaves you still in thin air without any backup to state your arguments.
Still the idea of a parallel universe where gravitation is much more powerfull seems to me like an excuse for people who are too lazy to get off their asses and do some research. Because if it indeed is like you are saying... Why doesn't it occur here? Ever thought of that before?


Edited by Dimitri (01/09/09 11:30 AM)
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#17899 - 01/09/09 11:44 AM Re: What is the mechaism of ritual magic? [Re: frankinstien]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3109
 Originally Posted By: frankinstien
Regarding M-Theory and parallel universes leaking gravity in our universe go to the link below and select the Escaping Gravity video.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/elegant/program.html

If your wife asks you about lipstick prints on your shirt don't panic, just tell her that you love her very much and you could never be with any other lover, but your double from a parallel universe is the one really cheating on her. ;\)

I know the video,.. but somehow you fail to distinguish assumptions from facts. Hear again.. how many times is "Idea" , "It might be"... used? I'm sorry, however I love to believe it but the only way to change my mind is when you come up with facts. I'm a scientist,.. well at least a student in sciences, the only thing which can convince me are facts and things that can be shown.


Edited by Dimitri (01/09/09 11:46 AM)
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#17918 - 01/09/09 10:32 PM Re: What is the mechaism of ritual magic? [Re: Dimitri]
frankinstien Offline
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Registered: 10/28/08
Posts: 16
[quote=Dimitri
This person only said Mr Hawkins admitted he made an error about black holes. Nothing else is said about parallel universes. At least the proove of their existance. Learn to read something before you provide your crap.

I never said/claimed black-holes don't exist. I have my opinions about it, but from what I know they haven't yet been told (at least not within this topic). This leaves you still in thin air without any backup to state your arguments.
Still the idea of a parallel universe where gravitation is much more powerfull seems to me like an excuse for people who are too lazy to get off their asses and do some research. Because if it indeed is like you are saying... Why doesn't it occur here? Ever thought of that before? [/quote]

What? I think you should read carefully... The article accounts the issues with Hawkings theory 30 some odd years ago regarding information retension of matter within a blackhole. For which Hawking used a parallel universe to explain it away.

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#17919 - 01/09/09 10:37 PM Re: What is the mechaism of ritual magic? [Re: Dimitri]
frankinstien Offline
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Registered: 10/28/08
Posts: 16
[quote=Dimitri
I know the video,.. but somehow you fail to distinguish assumptions from facts. Hear again.. how many times is "Idea" , "It might be"... used? I'm sorry, however I love to believe it but the only way to change my mind is when you come up with facts. I'm a scientist,.. well at least a student in sciences, the only thing which can convince me are facts and things that can be shown. [/quote]


Again Dimitri you are totally off here. The whole point of my posts are the exploits of prominent scientist who have and are using convenience theories. Get it? There are no parallel universes.

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#17925 - 01/10/09 12:02 AM Re: What is the mechaism of ritual magic? [Re: frankinstien]
ta2zz Offline
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Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 1552
Loc: Connecticut

I really want to jump into this with all the talk of electricity, magnetism, black holes, and convenience theories... But I just cannot figure out how to try to stay on the topic of the mechanism of ritual magic while doing so...

There is a thread on the large hadron collider some of my replies touch on some of the same subjects here...

~T~

Perhaps a new thread?


Edited by ta2zz (01/10/09 12:03 AM)
Edit Reason: Added a thought...
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#17926 - 01/10/09 12:06 AM Re: What is the mechaism of ritual magic? [Re: ta2zz]
daevid777 Offline
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Registered: 08/30/07
Posts: 951
Loc: Hell's Pisshole, Texas
Yeah, I kinda lost the whole "ritual magic" idea a long time ago... this is just a physics dispute now.

good call.
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#17934 - 01/10/09 05:25 AM Re: What is the mechaism of ritual magic? [Re: Fabiano]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3109
^
 Quote:
Again Dimitri you are totally off here. The whole point of my posts are the exploits of prominent scientist who have and are using convenience theories. Get it? There are no parallel universes.

Why did you claim at forehand there were? My bullshit-detector is sensing a quite strong force pointing from your direction...

 Quote:
What? I think you should read carefully... The article accounts the issues with Hawkings theory 30 some odd years ago regarding information retension of matter within a blackhole. For which Hawking used a parallel universe to explain it away.
Do you even know how to read it? It's just an interview like said before someone explains where Mr Hawkins said me possibly made an error. So? No facts from you, and even no proof it is valid.

To get back on topic:
 Quote:
So witches and warlocks if someone asks you to explain how your magic works just tell them it comes from a parallel universe...

Like I said before: how do you know?
And if this is true what is the mechanism that converts the "magic" from a parallel universe to this one here?

To me mechanism of ritual magic is pure psychological. No litlle devil granting your wishes, no spooky invisible man giving you extra power. Just you and your own energy who try to take life in hands.

Anyway, Frankinstein, if you have still something to say about the matter --> PM me, I'm not in the mood to fuck this entire tread.


Edited by Dimitri (01/10/09 05:36 AM)
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#17935 - 01/10/09 06:09 AM Re: What is the mechaism of ritual magic? [Re: Dimitri]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Learn to fucking understand what the guy wrote. He didn't claim that HE believed there were parallel universes anywhere but you seem to be so high on your "I'm a little scientist and I know stuff" routine that you fail to grasp anything not presented in pictures it seems. It's not the first time that you get on your high horse when you're doing nothing but showing you can't read what is written.

D.

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#17936 - 01/10/09 07:16 AM Re: What is the mechaism of ritual magic? [Re: Diavolo]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3109
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
Learn to fucking understand what the guy wrote. He didn't claim that HE believed there were parallel universes anywhere but you seem to be so high on your "I'm a little scientist and I know stuff" routine that you fail to grasp anything not presented in pictures it seems. It's not the first time that you get on your high horse when you're doing nothing but showing you can't read what is written.

D.

Reading from his posts it looked like he believes in it. Otherwise he shouldn't make such idiot quotes like "witches and warlocks...". He can say know it's sarcasm, but somehow I haven't got the impression he said it for a laugh. Anyway, it's not the point if it exists or not in his opinion. I only asked if there were actual articles he could provide about it.
He (and probably you also) only assumed I was thinking he believed in it. Don't mean a fucking clue here. Probably it is a bit written personally where I assume certain things, but this isn't the case. But frankinstein if you are feeling a bit attacked: my apologies.


Edited by Dimitri (01/10/09 07:38 AM)
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#17981 - 01/11/09 01:01 PM Re: What is the mechaism of ritual magic? [Re: Dimitri]
paolo sette Offline
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Registered: 12/12/08
Posts: 263
Loc: IL, USA
The physical sciences are awesome whether it be biology, chemistry, or physics. (I only started to read the replies from the discussion of black holes.) But, the postings have to do with Astrology, and whether Hawkings was right or wrong. Black holes have to do with theory because they can be neither proved nor disproved; but, remain debatable. When something can be repeatedly proved, it is made a Law like the Law of gravity. I have noticed things in the environment which cannot be explained by science (i.e. wind and rain) even though they try.

666, guys.
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#17984 - 01/11/09 01:31 PM Re: What is the mechaism of ritual magic? [Re: paolo sette]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
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 Quote:
I have noticed things in the environment which cannot be explained by science (i.e. wind and rain) even though they try.

Such as? Or do you mean you never had an explanation how wind and rain happen?
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#18007 - 01/11/09 09:36 PM Re: What is the mechaism of ritual magic? [Re: Dimitri]
Nemesis Offline
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Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2175
Loc: US
Paolo probably didn't make it to the 5th grade, where all that "precipitation" mythos was explained in the little circular color chart. First water evaporates, then it forms clouds, then it rains, drains and evaporates again...

As for the black hole thing...the only thing that's preventing us from verifying their existence is the inability to see it and study it with our own eyes. We haven't seemed to have developed an instrument capable of detecting them. Perhaps it's merely a case of celestial racism. "We shall overcome" is what the black holes chant during their sit-down protests. The only reason we can even speculate that they exist is from watching the behavior of neighboring stars and other large planetary bodies via powerful telescopes that can see into the next freakin' galaxy (well, pretty much anyway).

However, phenomena such as wind and rain can be seen, felt and studied.
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#18010 - 01/11/09 10:12 PM Re: What is the mechaism of ritual magic? [Re: paolo sette]
The Zebu Offline
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Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1640
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Wind and rain? Are you kidding me? This isn't ancient greece; we've already discovered the mechanisms of global pressure systems and water cycles that produce these phenomena.

Besides, the whole issue wasn't over whether or not black holes actually exist- most scientists agree they most likely do- but whether or not the matter and energy absorbed by them are perpetually trapped, can be detected, or vanish from this plane altogether.

And for the record, we do have instruments that can detect black holes.

In any case, even if other dimensions/parallel universes did exist, it would be quite silly to assume that this somehow implies the existence of ghosts or ESP or "magickal powers" or other such nonsense.


Edited by The Zebu (01/11/09 10:13 PM)
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#18013 - 01/11/09 11:29 PM Re: What is the mechaism of ritual magic? [Re: The Zebu]
ta2zz Offline
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Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 1552
Loc: Connecticut

Well if your Japanese you might think wind came from this guy...


While not explaining the wind or rain comment... I can only hope that paolo sette was reading the post that I linked to, in that post he would have found a link to this... The Black Hole Catastrophe and the Collapse of Spacetime

 Originally Posted By: Nemesis
As for the black hole thing...the only thing that's preventing us from verifying their existence is the inability to see it and study it with our own eyes.

Well that and the facts that they cannot mathematically exist without even more fantastical claims to back them up... See above link...

 Originally Posted By: The Zebu
And for the record, we do have instruments that can detect black holes.

Do we? Name them please...

~T~
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#18020 - 01/12/09 01:45 AM Re: What is the mechaism of ritual magic? [Re: Nemesis]
fakepropht Moderator Offline
Big Slick
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Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 990
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But we have developed methods of viewing and studying them. The Chandra project combined with the Hubble telescope have already photographed them. Just this morning I watched an episode on National Geographic devoted to black holes. I couldn't find a link online to that episode. But I will share these.

black hole 1

black hole 2

black hole 3

black holes 4
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#24092 - 05/03/09 08:17 PM Re: What is the mechaism of ritual magic? [Re: BlacKAcRE66]
Andrew Malchus Offline
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Firstly, what is Magic?
The Art of causing change in the equilibrium of the subjective universe in order to produce a proportionate change in the equilibrium of the objective universe.

Ritual magic sets the foundation for change in one's life and in one's being. Sometimes the results of ritual magic can occur almost instantly, sometimes it may take months. However there are instances, especially in Greater Magic that involves self-transformation or ascension in which the results can take years to occur.

Make no mistake though, Magic is real - it permeates everything. The trick is not to let your life revolve around Magic, but to let Magic revolve around your life.

/Andrew Malchus\
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