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#10499 - 08/05/08 08:20 PM Re: Advice for young men... [Re: Fist]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
"Women attach all sorts things to marriage - things you never thought of and can't really understand. Your relationship will change"

Honestly, out of curosity, what do you believe most women attach to marriage?


Why does the relationship have to change?


Morgan
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#10500 - 08/05/08 09:51 PM Re: Advice for young men... [Re: Fist]
Nemesis Offline
senior member


Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2175
Loc: US
I'm curious as to why you present this claim of "women attach all sorts of things to marriage" so one-sidedly. As if men don't have different expectations after the honeymoon as well. The husband has done all of his "wooing"--that means he doesn't have to take her out to dinner for no particular reason, buy spur-of-the moment gifts, do his share of the housework, evenly split taking care of any children, etc. Basically he feels he gets to slack because he has already "won" her. Note that I am applying this in the same general sense to male-kind as you put it towards us ladies.

If a couple lives together long enough, getting married isn't going to make much difference in their lives anyway. Once they're back home from the honeymoon, the only things that are different are the rings on their left hands and someone's last name got changed (in most cases anyway).

You should have known that us women-folk were gonna jump on this one \:D
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Nothing is sacred.

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#10505 - 08/06/08 05:04 AM Re: Advice for young men... [Re: Fist]
MaggotFaceMoe Offline
member


Registered: 08/30/07
Posts: 164
Loc: Finland
 Originally Posted By: Fist

So what's holding you back? Your already living together in a committed relationship. Why not get married?


Because I don't want to rush things, I'd like to have it all planned well. Besides I'd want to do it in summer and this one's almost over, at least where I live. Wouldn't want to be shivering in the cold for hours.

And like you earlier suggested, that ask her where she wants me in 5 or 10 years, we have discussed these matters, as well as what she possibly wants from me as a husband. No big change there, of course, like every one, she desires stability, but doesn't require me to change anything. It's hard to have a happy and passionate relationship, if I couldn't be happy and passionate about other things in life. Most probably I'll be in body modification business and doing music as long as my health permits, and that's all good with her. Perhaps a degree from marketing to make things more interesting...

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#10511 - 08/06/08 12:29 PM Re: Advice for young men... [Re: MaggotFaceMoe]
Fist Moderator Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/31/07
Posts: 1453
Loc: B'mo Cautious MF
Now this is interesting....

Moe 'doesn't want to rush things.' This would seem to indicate that he does, at least, sense that marriage would change things.

On the other hand, Morgan and Nemesis don't understand what the big deal is.

Hmmm...

Man - cold feet on commitment.
Woman - commitment is no big deal.

Would you agree this is a distillation of your positions?

Ok, let me play Socrates for a moment.

Before I offer an answer, would any of you care to reconcile the opposed points of view?
_________________________
I am the Devil and I am here to do the Devil's work.

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#10517 - 08/06/08 07:11 PM Re: Advice for young men... [Re: Fist]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
"what do you believe most women attach to marriage?"
This was still not answered by your opinion.

Commitment & marriage are 2 different things.

You can date someone but not want to marry them.
Commit to just being with them/fucking them (for now).

When your thinking of marriage, all that other stuff should have already been talked about or your an idiot.

LIKE :

Trust
Honesty
Loyality
Dont fuck anyone else unless you agree upon a 3-some.
Money
kids or no kids
Politics
Religion
Sex (kinds/openmindedness)
Music
Pre-nup
Pets
Personal styles
Families

I turned down proposals cause they didn't take those things into consideration, and we didn't mesh on important issues.
Plus, they said things would change, its like damn, motherfucker, I am dating you now for who you are, if you expect me to change go fuck yourself.

If the relationship is good, things mesh, and stuff works, then figure out what you want to do. Give it some time to grow, date, live together, marry? Besides, why rush it, if it works, what does time mean anyway?

Stuff can fall apart/get tossed, pets can die, but great sex is always great sex.

Morgan
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#10532 - 08/07/08 06:53 AM Re: Advice for young men... [Re: Fist]
MaggotFaceMoe Offline
member


Registered: 08/30/07
Posts: 164
Loc: Finland
 Originally Posted By: Fist

Moe 'doesn't want to rush things.' This would seem to indicate that he does, at least, sense that marriage would change things.


Let me change a word and add a few. More likely it could indicate that Moe does understand there is a possibility that some things could change.
And I think that the more you rush, the bigger the possibility. In time it may not seem as such a big deal, if done when the time is right, but perhaps there are more expectations to it, some maybe unrealistic or exaggerated if rushed into marriage before we have gathered enough experience...
Just a thought.

"Man - cold feet on commitment.
Woman - commitment is no big deal."

Guess there's some truth in that. I wouldn't say that I fear commitment, but big things are big things and deserve some thought and planning.

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#10533 - 08/07/08 06:58 AM Re: Advice for young men... [Re: Fist]
Nemesis Offline
senior member


Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2175
Loc: US
I came to a different conclusion from Moe's intention of not wanting to rush things. Where you read "cold feet", I read someone who wants to make sure all of his ducks are in a row before taking the next step. Surely, this is a smart move?

And no, commitment IS a big deal. It is marriage which is overhyped and for centuries has been seen as an end in and of itself. That's not the case anymore, it's not the earth-shattering milestone in one's life that rips a young woman from her home and family that she loves to go live with her new keeper. Now it's a union of two people joining on equal ground, who are both willing to make some compromises to have a happy, successful life together. If it doesn't work out, both parties are free to separate and go their own ways.

Where you see marriage as the end of a man's hallowed single life, I see it as simply a formalization of an existing union. If a man gets fucked over in a divorce, it's because he married a harpy and didn't test-drive her for long enough. That's his damn fault, as well as being weak enough to cave in to the pressure of marriage before he's absolutely positive that woman's the right one for him.
_________________________
Nothing is sacred.

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#10534 - 08/07/08 06:59 AM Re: Advice for young men... [Re: Morgan]
MaggotFaceMoe Offline
member


Registered: 08/30/07
Posts: 164
Loc: Finland
 Originally Posted By: Morgan


When your thinking of marriage, all that other stuff should have already been talked about

LIKE :

Trust
Honesty
Loyality
Dont fuck anyone else unless you agree upon a 3-some.
Money
kids or no kids
Politics
Religion
Sex (kinds/openmindedness)
Music
Pre-nup
Pets
Personal styles
Families


I think it's also a prerequisite for a responsible relationship, before even thinking of marriage.

 Originally Posted By: Morgan

Stuff can fall apart/get tossed, pets can die, but great sex is always great sex.


Another reason I want to shackle and chain my lady and never let her go ;\)

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#10535 - 08/07/08 08:29 AM Re: Advice for young men... [Re: MaggotFaceMoe]
Fist Moderator Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/31/07
Posts: 1453
Loc: B'mo Cautious MF
 Quote:
Let me change a word and add a few. More likely it could indicate that Moe does understand there is a possibility that some things could change.


Ok gang, this is what I am getting at. What is going to change? Please explain. And what will make it change? As Satanists, this should be easy to explain.

And just how long do we continue to shack up before we know it's time to actually tie the knot or roll out? What specific conditions will be present to indicate a move in one direction or the other. People change and as a result relationships change. Men and women also change differently and at different rates. I am not the same person I was 15 years ago. Are you?

So again, I ask all of you, what is this change we are talking about? Do you have any married or divorced friends? Ask them what changed after marriage.
_________________________
I am the Devil and I am here to do the Devil's work.

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#10537 - 08/07/08 09:42 AM Re: Advice for young men... [Re: Fist]
MaggotFaceMoe Offline
member


Registered: 08/30/07
Posts: 164
Loc: Finland
Only one of my friend has married, but we aren't exactly so close I'd share such a conversation with him.
But as you have married and thus have some experience, why don't you share some of your opinions. What are your views on what makes things change? And on the other hand, why should things change, if they worked out just perfectly before marriage? If the couple has been together for awhile anyway, why does a legal document and new ring have to change the characteristic of the relationship in any way... Kids I understand, but if it isn't anything concrete.
There are different kind of people, so I reckon there are different kind of marriages...
What just came to mind, have you considered cultural differences and what impact they may have on our expectancies what comes to marriage. Marital customs differ somewhat in other parts of the world and though our countries' modern culture share similarities, many aspects are still different.

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#10539 - 08/07/08 12:26 PM Re: Advice for young men... [Re: MaggotFaceMoe]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
"And just how long do we continue to shack up before we know it's time to actually tie the knot or roll out? What specific conditions will be present to indicate a move in one direction or the other."

For me:
2 years involvement or less to figure out if I want to roll.
2 months or less if I want to date or not date you.
Needless to say, I'm not married, just very particular.

For me, Cheating is a big no-no. Fuck around after a committment and its done.

"Ask them what changed after marriage"
From what I saw/heard, the level of respect went down, the amount of attention went down, the amount of commuication went down, and the amount of sex went down.

Reasons I turned down some men...
One asked me when I was 21, then in the next breath before I answered him, said he cant wait to see me pregnant with his kids. After never mentioning he wanted kids. I said no.
One asked me, then said is that what I needed to hear in order to trust him. I said no.
I ended one after he told his mom about me, and she put rosaybeads in his car. He came to see me the night before his wedding to one of my friends to have me tell him to not get married cause he still wanted me.

The point is, if you aren't sure, dont do it.
Marriage is too much of a headache to take lightly.

I think Moe has it.
If it works, flows and just works. Its a good thing.
Most importantly, there has to be passion and chemistry.

Morgan
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#10557 - 08/08/08 11:34 AM Re: Advice for young men... [Re: Morgan]
Fist Moderator Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/31/07
Posts: 1453
Loc: B'mo Cautious MF
Again, I thing these threads should be instructive. So, I have gotten some good feedback here and I will now try to go point for point on some of it.

I will get to it all soon...
_________________________
I am the Devil and I am here to do the Devil's work.

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#10568 - 08/09/08 04:41 PM Re: Advice for young men... [Re: Morgan]
Fist Moderator Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/31/07
Posts: 1453
Loc: B'mo Cautious MF
 Quote:
Honestly, out of curosity, what do you believe most women attach to marriage?


Simply put, women think they can change the fundamental nature of their men. Most women see their man as a diamond in the rough, and given enough time, they can 'fix' everything that is 'wrong' with them. A lifetime marriage commitment is often seen as the perfect opportunity to make him just the way you want him.

In general, as a man grows older only his cost of his toys change. At his core, he is still that playful little boy. So too, women often see men a just another doll to play 'house' with. Most problems in a marriage are because the man is not playing the game right.

More on this latter...

 Quote:
Why does the relationship have to change?


Because people change. As I mentioned before, no one is the same person they were 10 years ago. This is what most people mean when they say they have 'grown apart.' The key is grow together but this is often difficult to do if both parties are not working off the same page.
_________________________
I am the Devil and I am here to do the Devil's work.

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#10603 - 08/11/08 09:06 AM Re: Advice for young men... [Re: Fist]
MaggotFaceMoe Offline
member


Registered: 08/30/07
Posts: 164
Loc: Finland
 Originally Posted By: Fist


 Quote:
Why does the relationship have to change?


Because people change. As I mentioned before, no one is the same person they were 10 years ago. This is what most people mean when they say they have 'grown apart.' The key is grow together but this is often difficult to do if both parties are not working off the same page.


Yes, that I have experienced and understand well. But getting married is not the change factor in it.

Back to the marriage thing, what you said about women wanting to change their men is a universal stereotype, but thankfully it doesn't come with every individual. When my girl tells me that she's happy with the way I am, I believe she is sincere. Many times I've been told that no one has ever been as good to her as I am. Again I believe she is sincere, judging on what little I know of her previous relationships. If I play my part right there won't be need for complaints and changing my character. And I think she understands how impossible the task would be anyway... \:\) I don't budge too easily, but not to the point when I would be unreasonable. I try to always keep her desires in mind when making plans and decisions, so no one has to budge or sacrifice too much.

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#10618 - 08/12/08 01:21 AM Re: Advice for young men... [Re: Fist]
blackdragon31560 Offline
pledge


Registered: 08/30/07
Posts: 74
Loc: Hell Paso, TX
Well Fist nice post, mostly common scene to me. though i think it nice you took the time to help some people here.

 Quote:
At his core, he is still that playful little boy. So too, women often see men a just another doll to play 'house' with. Most problems in a marriage are because the man is not playing the game right.


Well i would think stereo typing marriage as whole, i think simply a bit small minded, that or the topic should be changed to something like "Advice for young heterosexual monogamous men..." marriage by topical standards is a binding of a man and women that are in love (which i agree with), but leaves out fine print. People change so will marriage change be it monogamous, open, between gay people, etc.

i would think the what holding you back is simply, marriage i think make's people realize for the most part that, they can no longer think in terms of "I". which to me is something that can terrify people, along with the word permanent/binding.

"Women attach all sorts things to marriage" that could be said about anyone in a marriage.
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