I love Penn Jillette. To me, he is the epitome of the modern Atheist--he is well-spoken, articulate, and bears no outright hatred for those who believe in a deity. He was a guest on the Glenn Beck show not long ago, and despite Glenn being a self-described "born again" after getting over his alcoholism, the two had a very cordial conversation.
Iewa, I'll have to remind you that posts on this forum need to consist of at least 2 complete sentences or more. Sorry to be a nag and all, but if we let one person start doing it, then everyone will and it'll bring down the integrity of this site.
What are your thoughts on these videos? Care to expand on your initial compliment a bit more?
I find picking lint from my navel great as well. I find sniffing my socks "sickenly" great. If my underwear doesn't have skid marks in it at the end of the day, I consider that great. A nice scratching of my balls late at night is great. Sometimes comments should just be kept to ourselves and not posted.
_________________________ Beer, the reason I get up every afternoon.
That was awesome, I enjoyed it immensely. Very informative. I've seen previews for Penn and Teller's show on ShowTime, but, sadly, I don't get it. Looks like a riot though.
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"The Devil walks beside me, He walks proud."
From what I've been able to research the myths that are tought in the Bible are based soley on numerology and solar astrology and have nothing to do with any real events. Through out the Old and New Testaments you consistantly see specific numbers such as 12's, 3's, 7's and 40's. They wrote these myths back when everyone still thought that the earth was flat and all the stars and planets revolved around earth. The sun was God. The sun was crucified in the 12th month December 22nd when it dipped into the southern hemisphere in the vicinity of the star constellation known as the southern CROSS! After 3 days on December 25th (Christmas)the sun was ressurected! The stone (planet earth) was rolled away and the sun was "born again". I was raised like millions of other people to beleive these stories were true. But they're just myths that got the names changed to fit what ever empire was in power at the time of the writings. If you want to check out an amazing website check out www,askwhy.co.uk. Dr, Mgee really goes into some detailed discriptions of how these myths were formed and their origin.
I've never heard of these guys before- good on them for taking such a "taboo" subject like the bible, and totally ripping the whole concept to shreds, and in such a valid, humourous way too (Loved the section on Noah's Ark, I had a good laugh!)
I'd love it if they screened that "prime time" in Oz, it would totally make my day..
Definitely seek out some Penn & Teller. Surprised they arent on the radar down under. They are "rogue" magicians so if you enjoy magic at all they are fun from the entertainment perspective too, great showmen.
For any of you who have never heard of it, the movie "Zeitgeist" has an excellent explanation of the astrological "coincidences" surrounding the extraordinary similarities between the (mythical) lives of Jesus, Horus, Mithra, Krishna, Dionysus etc...
"The star in the east is Sirius, the brightest star in the night sky, which, on December 24th, aligns with the 3 brightest stars in Orion's Belt. These 3 bright stars are called today what they were called in ancient times: The Three Kings. The Three Kings and the brightest star, Sirius, all point to the place of the sunrise on December 25th. This is why the Three Kings "follow" the star in the east, in order to locate the sunrise - the birth of the sun.
There is another very interesting phenomenon that occurs around December 25th, or the winter solstice. From the summer solstice to the winter solstice, the days become shorter and colder. From the perspective of the northern hemisphere, the sun appears to move south and get smaller and more scarce. The shortening of the days and the expiration of the crops when approaching the winter solstice symbolized the process of death to the ancients. It was the death of the Sun. By December 22nd, the Sun's demise was fully realized, for the Sun, having moved south continually for 6 months, makes it to it's lowest point in the sky. Here a curious thing occurs: the Sun stops moving south, at least perceivably, for 3 days. During this 3 day pause, the Sun resides in the vicinity of the Southern Cross, or Crux, constellation. And after this time on December 25th, the Sun moves 1 degree, this time north, foreshadowing longer days, warmth, and Spring.
And thus it was said: the Sun died on the cross, was dead for 3 days, only to be resurrected or born again. This is why Jesus and numerous other Sun Gods share the crucifixion, 3-day death, and resurrection concept. It is the Sun's transition period before it shifts its direction back into the Northern Hemisphere, bringing Spring, and thus salvation."
Jesus was a myth, modeled after Horus and numerous other "solar messiahs".
#21651 - 03/06/0907:09 PMRe: Bullshit: The Bible
[Re: icu4whatur]
joseph oreillyjoseph oreilly
Incomprehensible--Banned
pledge
Registered: 01/29/09
Posts: 58
Penn Gillette had an unusual career as an actor, he was in various shows with melissa jone heart and also appeared on the nickalodeon tv show 'are you afraid of the dark' several times?
Registered: 02/26/09
Posts: 157
Loc: No. Utah. USA
My Wife is not an Xian, nor a Pagan or Satanist. I guess you could classify her as an agnostic. She really isn't into spirituality or religion at all. So in some sense she is a Satanist and just doesn't realize it... I am going to have her read TSB. She watched this video with me and really liked it. Gives me hope!
Roger.
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We can't stop here, this is bat country!
I became an archeologist because of my non agreement with religion. However with noah's ark at confrences I have heard the argument that the known world in biblical times only consisted of a few hundred miles.
Hey, I'd just like to say that there has been found proof that the world existed for over a few million years in fossils and footprints, of which contradicts the bible of course, which says that the world only existed for 5000 years. And the excuses that some firm believers told me was: a) the 6 days at the beginning of the bible reefers to millions of years for each day
b) that the flood in Noah caused the ground to look much older then it actually is.
I'm looking for answers to these excuses if anybody can help.
And the excuses that some firm believers told me was: a) the 6 days at the beginning of the bible reefers to millions of years for each day
You'll find "young earth" creationists, who insist that the Earth was created in 6 literal days and is thus (by biblical chronology) only a few thousand years old - as well as "old earth" ones who translate the Hebrew word 'yom' (meaning 'day') as 'indeterminate period of time', thus attempting to make Genesis compatible with the view that the Earth is at least millions of years old.
This does seem a somewhat lame attempt to shoehorn modern science into a Bronze Age myth, however. It's based on the assumption that the creation story is basically right, so when evidence comes in against it, the story is given a little tweak so it still seems to 'fit'. It's all pretty obscurantist reasoning, nothing like how science operates.
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b) that the flood in Noah caused the ground to look much older then it actually is.
And thus our modern dating techniques are wrong and the Bible is right, etc. Reminiscent of the idea that "fossils millions of years old are only there because God put them like that thousands of years ago to test our faith."
This commits the 'ad hoc' fallacy, as while looking like an argument, it's merely an assertion to explain away evidence while clinging to a preconceived belief. Since neither the original creation story, nor this excuse, have any empirical evidence going for them, they still lack credibility on grounds other than pure blind belief.
The Penn and Teller BULLSHIT series has been running on Showtime (cable TV) for a couple of years. They tackle almost every sacred cow you can think of, and some that slip through the bullshit detectors of most people.
If you search for BULLSHIT Penn and Teller on Youtube, you'll find a lot of different episodes.
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Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.
While agreeing that the Bible is bullshit in many ways, I'd like to let you know that Zeitgeist, at least the religious portions, have been largely refuted. I once looked into it and found several seemingly expert sources take it apart piece by piece. Some parts are clearly lies in the eyes of anyone with basic knowledge about Egyptian gods, one example being that Horus is not the head god in any way. Another example is the line drawn between the god Isis and Mary. It claims that the god is sometimes called Isis-meri and that Christians adopted it to be Mary. Christians certainly adopted many things from others, but nowhere is Isis known to be Isis-meri. Other examples include this video here- skip ahead to 5:50 to get to the real debunking content.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JuyIxKrw2Yk
I too was quite convinced of Zeitgeist until I looked further into it, and it falls apart rather quickly.
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"I who have nothing but the comfort of my sins" - Vinny Paz
Penn and Teller have appeared on Australian prime time TV as magicians.
Bullshit has been screened here very late at night. I originally thought the show was similar to Mythbusters. Thanks goodness I've discovered it's true nature.
Penn's arguments concerning The Bible are very clear and very strong. I'm sure Teller could also make great arguments if silence wasn't part of his act :P .
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If you are interested in the archæological, historical, and cultural significance of the Holy Bible, I highly recommend John Romer's Testament. Testament is not a book for those who just want to take potshots at the HB's mythology and the way it has been exploited over the centuries; it's rather a look at the overall phenomenon of the thing: an utterly fascinating and historically-illuminating story.
John Romer, who is one of my most revered archæologist heroes, has recently annoyed me by writing a new book on the Great Pyramid which maintains that it was, after all, just Khufu's tomb. Well, I've ordered a copy out of respect for him (which I certainly don't accord to that media freak Hawass), but I guess I will have to arrange for the Goa'uld to suck him up with their rings and re-educate him out of the Khufu lamexcuse.
Thank you for the link Michael. Another one I would recommend for an appropiate understanding of the bible is 101 Myths of the Bible. It is a eyeopening read that actually make the bible far more interesting than its current and more popular understanding of it.
While Zeitgeist is largely thrown together mishmash that's meant to elicit an emotional reaction, there are far better researched, thorough, documented works that advocate the "pagan parallels" issue than Zeitgeist. One of my favorites is The Jesus Mysteries by Freke and Gandy.
I always mention the pagan parallels because many Christians are ignorant of the fact that their religion is not unique. I've seen many a Christian advocate with a straight face that God sacrificing his son, the concept of salvation, commandments like "Thou shalt not kill" etc are exclusive to the Abrahamic religions. They really have no idea.
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'Tis only daylight that makes us sin.
Excluding the pomp and shock value - the main theme of Zeitgeist's exposure of Christian Bible is that the bible is actually an "astro-theological literary hybrid".
To give zeitgeist some credit, they did try to "mash" a very broad area of study into 30 minutes; there is no way to treat this subject very well in that short of time.
Besides, most of the video seemed to be trying to expose banking conspiracies and 911 - which should have been totally different videos if you ask me, but that's just my opinion. They tried to tie three large arenas of controversy together in order to bring it under the cloak of a grand conspiracy, I understand that, and if that was their goal, then mission accomplished, but it came across as being poorly researched with sloppy explanations.
Many of the stories from the bible can be said to identify with characteristics and symbols numerous other cultures, and one does not have to stretch their imagination very far to imagine why this might be.....
As the church plundered its way through europe, the middle east, and the americas, it would seem imperative, from the point of view of a fighting strategist, to hybridize ideas from the local culture, as this would function as part of the manipulation which would help the battered remnants of the conquered people to unwittingly swallow the new "truth".
It would seem that the ideas/customs/imagery that could not be totally destroyed by the inquisition were partially assimilated.
I have a very old book in my collection, from 1629 - Zodiacus Vitae - it reminds me of what they were trying to illustrate with Zeitgeist, it tells the story of the sun as a human man in his journey as he passes through the astrological houses. Each chapter is a poem meant to represent an astrological sign and its characteristics.
One chapter in particular reminded me of Zeitgeist, a poem in which the main character of the story, the "hero" of the story, it you will, becomes thirsty after years of sailing and eating only the fish of sea - so he pulls ashore and then he enters a house where his greeter offers him water and tells him he can stay and drink of his water as much as he likes, but when his family's goat becomes thirsty, he will have to leave and take the goat with him.....
Even those with only a rudimentary knowledge of astrological symbolism might be able to see the parallels
Pieces(fish) into Aquarius(water) into Capricorn(goat)
A similar verse is related in both Matthew 14:13 and Luke 22:10
The bible is full of Archetypal and Astrological Symbolism, and a there is much of interesest and practical value that can be assimilated into ritual practice/philosophy - if approached with the beautiful advantage of a Satanic Mindset - in other words, without taking it literally, and without being blinded by moral stigmas that have affixed themselves to the stories over the years.
Fuck I love these videos. They have their share of information, but more than that, it’s the way in which the information is delivered.
It’s total Las Vegas Americanism. Say what you want about the yanks, but every now and then, they deliver a good point with a finesse and singular brutality that is uniquely “them”. This is one of those moments.
On a side note, the episode on “PETA” made me giggle myself right into a under pant changing moment.
Fucking great.
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"Nothing is your own except the few cubic centimeters inside your skull." - George Orwell (1984)
As far as Im concerned the buy-bull is just a rip of of older religious stories predating it. E.g, Jesus hanging on the cross is a rip of of Odin who hung on a tree.
I love when he says that the more they study into archeology, the more they realize it is utter crap.
As far as Im concerned the buy-bull is just a rip of of older religious stories predating it. E.g, Jesus hanging on the cross is a rip of of Odin who hung on a tree.
Please try to do better than a pseudo-historical assertion. Yes, a number of religions flowed into or were grafted onto Christian mythology after its establishment, but the accounts of Jesus's crucifixion were written by people who almost certainly had never heard of Óðinn, let alone been in contact with people who worshiped him. Regardless, we presently have no archaeological or historical evidence that the story of Óðinn on Yggdrasil recounted in the Hávamál was even known or told among Germanic peoples during the time of Jesus. It may even be that the reverse is true, and that the eight stanzas which comprise the Rúnatal drew from Christian mythology.
Z.
_________________________ Nihil sit tam infirmum aut instabile quam fama potentiae non sua vi nita.
As far as Im concerned the buy-bull is just a rip of of older religious stories predating it. E.g, Jesus hanging on the cross is a rip of of Odin who hung on a tree.
Please try to do better than a pseudo-historical assertion. Yes, a number of religions flowed into or were grafted onto Christian mythology after its establishment, but the accounts of Jesus's crucifixion were written by people who almost certainly had never heard of Óðinn, let alone been in contact with people who worshiped him. Regardless, we presently have no archaeological or historical evidence that the story of Óðinn on Yggdrasil recounted in the Hávamál was even known or told among Germanic peoples during the time of Jesus. It may even be that the reverse is true, and that the eight stanzas which comprise the Rúnatal drew from Christian mythology.
Z.
I very highly doubt the Pagan tales were taken from Christianity seeing as they were around before Christianity. I can see were you're coming from but to me Jesus is just a rip off of the age old allegory of death and rebirth. Of course the public didn't know about Odin (or any other God that the story Jesus was taken from) because they weren't allowed to. The people who wrote the bible did indeed know about the story of Odin because they had spent alot of time destroying these sorts of things to have the public ignorant. That way the story of Jesus could be enforced easier.
I very highly doubt the Pagan tales were taken from Christianity seeing as they were around before Christianity. I can see were you're coming from but to me Jesus is just a rip off of the age old allegory of death and rebirth.
But that isn't what you said. In your own words, "Jesus hanging on the cross is a rip of of Odin who hung on a tree." You clearly stated that the story of Jesus was derived specifically from the story of Óðhinn, which you have failed thus far to support. My point was that we have no evidence one way or another that the story of the god impaling himself on Yggdrasil was even known among the Germanic peoples at the time of Jesus. And yes, modern scholarship on Germanic literature has put forward the possibility that that particular story may well have been derived from stories of Christ. I never claimed that this derivation had been proven, only that it is plausible, and without wishing to be haughty or flippantly dismissive, I'm going to trust Ph.D.-level research in the field over an unsupported assertion.
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Of course the public didn't know about Odin (or any other God that the story Jesus was taken from) because they weren't allowed to.
The only reason we still have these mythological accounts at all, by and large, is due to their transcription and careful preservation by Christian monks and scholars. There certainly wasn't any sort of ban or discouragement in that regard, and indeed Christians at large were well aware of past deities and the stories surrounding them, both at a continental and a regional level. The existence of emblem books containing symbols and references to various mythologies is strong testimony to this fact, especially for a largely illiterate society.
Moreover, there are several examples of Christians who possessed an intimate knowledge of and familiarity with various pagan traditions. Sometimes this took the form of utter contempt (e.g., Sts. Peter Chrysologus and Olaf Haraldsson), other times deep admiration and acknowledgment of influence (e.g., Clement of Alexandria, Albertus Magnus, and Thomas Aquinas). Even a superficial glance at the Patrologiae Cursus Completus will disabuse one of any notion that the history of Christianity exhibits the uniformity you presume.
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The people who wrote the bible did indeed know about the story of Odin because they had spent alot of time destroying these sorts of things to have the public ignorant. That way the story of Jesus could be enforced easier.
The people who wrote the New Testament were paupers, and had no political power to attack let alone destroy the Germanic peoples even if they wanted to. Christianization of those tribes wouldn't begin until Late Antiquity, centuries after the Bible was written, and Christianity didn't even reach Scandinavia until the 8th century, nor Norway or Iceland until just before 1000 CE. There is absolutely no evidence that the earliest Christians had any knowledge of Óðhinn.
I also find it hard to believe that a group so allegedly anxious to ensure ignorance of other religions in general and forms of paganism in particular would put to writing as much as possible concerning them rather than simply allowing their bygone legacy to vanish completely, or actively journey to Islam-controlled Spain in order to obtain and translate the pagan texts which contained the natural philosophy they sought to learn. David C. Lindberg's masterful introductory volume, The Beginnings of Western Science, treats this in its ninth and especially tenth chapter, if you happen to be interested.
Z.
_________________________ Nihil sit tam infirmum aut instabile quam fama potentiae non sua vi nita.
Registered: 06/21/10
Posts: 60
Loc: Minnesota, USA
If the first statement in an arguement is false than all other statements made after that are also false. The genetics of Adam & Eve would have been so vile every one of their babies would have gills or some other hidious deformities.
Anyone with half a brain can decifer the lies of that ugly book. Thank You for the post had not seen this one by Pen&Teller. Keep'em coming nice post.
Christianity by virtue of its roots took Pagan rituals and turned them into Christian doctrine. It was Christians that suppressed Paganism. It was Christians that killed and tortured Pagans. Christian holidays are taken from the Pagans.
In short the entire religion is a lie. It's entire history as been nothing but a history full of forgery and lies. A lot of the famous Christian father's acknowledged that to lie to advance the faith was OK, Eusibus being one.
Who can support or worship a book that preaches the killing of children and the list goes on. When you get right down to it the book is nothing more than bad mythology, poorly written and not even anywhere close to good literature.
The Christians stole from the Pagans just as they stole from other religions to support their lie.
churchof666.blogspot.com We don't take kindly to one-liner posts. Please ensure that your posts contain more than a simple link. Also, don't advertise your own or any other website unless it contains information germane to the discussion.
Edited by MawhrinSkel (07/18/1006:19 AM) Edit Reason: Warning.
For any of you who have never heard of it, the movie "Zeitgeist" has an excellent explanation of the astrological "coincidences" surrounding the extraordinary similarities between the (mythical) lives of Jesus, Horus, Mithra, Krishna, Dionysus etc...
Many people believe Jesus was a historical figure who studied in India:
We know Westerners, including Greeks and Romans, had been in contact with Indian thinkers, and since Greek and Sanskrit are relatively similar, it's not unrealistic to think the populations are related and therefore shared a founding mythos.
In addition, portions of the Bible appear similar to Phoenician, Babylonian, and Greek sources; we know much of Jewish thought, from which the Bible originated, was heavily influenced by the Greeks.
It seems likely to me that the Bible is a mishmash of Jewish, Pagan/Canaanite, Greek, Hindu, Buddhist, Phoenician, Babylonian, Egyptian and Roman thought. As a result, we should view it as a mutable document that could even be modified to be pro-Satanic.
Then again, I come at this from a Hindu view, which is that there is one reality, and all religions describe it, so we might as well consider all religions to be one religion with different branches for different metaphors/interpretations.
One thing is for sure, the death of Jesus is the best thing that ever happened, do u know why, its becoz through that every one who believes in him will live with him 4ever, the salvation of God is the answer... Lets us not be blinded
Edited by AceChristian (08/25/1004:54 PM) Edit Reason: Grammar purposes
One thing is for sure, the death of Jesus is the best thing ever happened, do u know why, its becoz through that every one who believes in him will live with him 4ever, salvation of God is the the answer...
Why don't you follow him, post haste.
By the by, don't you think it's rude to proselytize in places where you KNOW it's not welcomed?
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Scratching Peace Symbols on Your Tombstone
One thing is for sure, the death of Jesus is the best thing that ever happened, do u know why, its becoz through that every one who believes in him will live with him 4ever, the salvation of God is the answer... Lets us not be blinded
Grammar purposes aside; you seem to be blinded by the light... We do in fact welcome individuals of the Xian belief here at the 600 Club, as long as they are willing to enter dialogue...
Your public display leaves something to be desired... Proper spelling for one thing, a rudimentary show of intelligence another...
I will ban you without hesitation if you fail to get your act together, Monotheology is distasteful in itself, moron followers of the same belief is another..
That Penn and Teller video is absurd. Telling people that there is a chemical present in resevoirs and foods that causes excessive urination and vomiting and then laughing at people for wanting it banned because they "tricked" them is childish. Wow, they know of an alternative term for water which represents it's chemical structure with the same validity as the term H2O. You know what they should do? Put time, effort, and money into making a video where they raise concern about poisoned baby food and then mock anyone who expresses a similar concern.
I've signed a petition or two, back when I had any kind of faith in their efficacy. I didnt hang around for a few minutes questioning the petitioners motives, or even reading the information they gave me. I expressed an opinion on the issue they were collecting petitions for. If it was clear that I agreed with their views, I signed and got the hell out of there. If the protesters looked anything like woman one in this video, I probably would have kept any negative opinions to myself, and signed whatever. Because it's just a fucking petition.
But Penn and Teller are right. Conducting a little experiment on whether people will sign a petition banning chemicals presented in a negative light with a "hot blonde" offering the pen isn't stupid. It's those hippies. Hippies are stupid.
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Let us represent worthily for once the foul brood to which a cruel fate consigned us.
Telling people that there is a chemical present in resevoirs and foods that causes excessive urination and vomiting and then laughing at people for wanting it banned because they "tricked" them is childish.
I disagree.
An unthinking, unquestioning mind - now that is childish and absurd.
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Ultimate Satanic Bad Ass of Ultimate Satanic Bad Assery PhD Esq. LLC Inc.^∞ DCLXVI°
I would consider certain things to be unworthy of rigorous questioning. I can see the point the video attempted to make - but I just find it embarrasing. Certainly, to accept everything one is told is childish, absurd, etc. But this is a bad example. Suspicion against an effort to ban chemicals presented as dangerous strikes me as a little paranoid/unecessary.
Say it was for real. The petition would likely have little to no effect. Say you sign it, no questions asked. Common with petitions. Maybe it helps ban a chemical from water/food/whatever. That won't be missed. It doesnt get passed, it seems reasonable to assume that there was no harm done. I like to think I question things enough, and dont just accept them at their face value. Like with most people, this is sometimes automatic, and sometimes a conscious effort. No-one likes being fooled, negatively affecting their lives in a way that could easily have been avoided. But a petition isn't very threatening. I have no problem admitting that I would either have signed the petition and moved on, or simply said no thanks - I wouldnt have asked a single question, unless the topic aroused my curiosity. I've been stupid, and I've been fooled. It happens less the more I open my eyes, as time passes, and so on. But worrying about a petition like that is, at the risk of sounding pompous, beneath me. Last hypothetical. Say I'm there on that video, pen in hand. I'm not going to be kicking myself at home, cursing my lack of vigilance.
I just wouldnt care.
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Let us represent worthily for once the foul brood to which a cruel fate consigned us.
It is not about whether or not the petition would have any effects, it is not about the content of the example petition given; it is entirely about the gullibility of people and the ludicrous things that gullibility can get them to do. This is a perfect example of that.
All they did was pick another name for water and describe it with traits that is does have. Too much water can indeed cause excessive urination, sweating, diarrhea etc. The people were simply swayed by the "scientific" wording. This means their actions are guided by an appeal to authority fallacy; much like the way companies will often throw people in lab coats in their commercial. It adds the appearance of credibility where there might not be any.
I'm reminded of an episode of The Man Show where they went around and got women to sign a petition to "end woman suffrage". There were some women who found it offensive but for the most part it was well received.
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Ultimate Satanic Bad Ass of Ultimate Satanic Bad Assery PhD Esq. LLC Inc.^∞ DCLXVI°
Say it was for real. The petition would likely have little to no effect. Say you sign it, no questions asked. Common with petitions. Maybe it helps ban a chemical from water/food/whatever. That won't be missed. It doesnt get passed, it seems reasonable to assume that there was no harm done.
DDT was banned because it interfered with the reproduction of birds. Mosquitos flourished and spread malaria at record rates, killing several humans.
People are clamoring for the banning of irradiation, a food sanitizing method that could potentially prevent millions of cases of food poisoning.
I'm sorry, but yes, these bans DO have an effect on things. They can make everyday products excessively expensive, put human lives at risk, or halt major advances in medical progress because people have kneejerk reactions to things they don't understand.
I remember a girl freaking out and refusing to drink a bottle of milk because it was "pasteurized" and "homogenized" and that sounded too scary and scientific to her.
