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#106950 - 05/31/16 04:40 PM Re: what brought you to satanism? [Re: Czereda]
Naama Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Czereda
There was no Satanism before Anton LaVey


You are forgetting, my dear, that there was indeed an occult tradition before LaVey \:\)
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#106952 - 05/31/16 05:05 PM Re: what brought you to satanism? [Re: Naama]
Czereda Offline
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 Quote:
You are forgetting, my dear, that there was indeed an occult tradition before LaVey


So what? Christianity has its occult tradition too unless you're going to claim that Gnostics were Satanists, that Alchemy was Satanism, that Freemasons were Satanists, that Knights Templar were Satanists etc. All forms of Satanism that exist today were inspired by Anton LaVey. All the members of this forum, including you and Dimi, are influenced by him. I'm tired with the bullshit that some people perpetuate here. Satanism owes its existence to Anton LaVey.
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#106954 - 05/31/16 05:24 PM Re: what brought you to satanism? [Re: Czereda]
Naama Offline
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As a movement..?
yes, perhaps...

If a person takes it seriously (I do, actually) - I would even close eyes at Lavey's "creature" here and will be considering the fact of passing an occult knowledge (like a chain, from one group to another or from certain individuals to other ones) further along the history of humanity.
(Crowley, Saturnian Brotherhood, and all those groups and individuals during history, and times...)
And stretching the truth a little bit (not being too harsh with names and titles) - I am strongly assured that Gnostics (Ophidians in particular) were Satanists, essentially.
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#106956 - 05/31/16 06:23 PM Re: what brought you to satanism? [Re: Czereda]
The Zebu Offline
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 Quote:
So what? Christianity has its occult tradition too unless you're going to claim that Gnostics were Satanists,


Interestingly enough, the Herbert Sloane's Ophite Cultus Sathanas was both Gnostic and Satanic, and this form seems to have predated LaVey's Church of Satan by several years (and there is intriguing evidence that LaVey acknowledged this himself in private correspondence, detailed here. It is also worth noting that the relationship between the two seemed very cordial and Sloane himself was a C.O.S member, during a 'freer time' when the organization was not so rigidly defined):

 Originally Posted By: Letter from H. Sloane, 1968
Dear brother

Yours of yesterday received. It was kind of Dr. La Vey to speak so well of me. He errors in saying I have been a devotee of Satanism for 30 years: it happens to be twice that span of years as I will be 63 years of age this Sept. 3rd and SATHANAS extended THE CALL to me the summer I was 3 years old. My Covenatorship dates back 38 years.

So far as I am concerned SALVATION is the purpose of any and all of the religions ------ and in SATANISM THE CALL is the ONLY approach; because a Gnostic is the approached and not the approacher.


Mr. Sloane himself summed up Satanism as "the position opposed to the worship of the force that brought the cosmos into existence as mind and matter out of the realm of pure spirit." So if he gets the first word, maybe the TOTBL is the only "real" Satanic group around nowadays, eh? ;\)

I kid of course. The utility of labels is limited and is in part dependent upon group consensus. But it does give some interesting food for thought.

My own passion for Satanism was strongly influenced by esotericism and folklore (Western demonology and the grimoires particularly, the usage of which was already being called "Satanism" in the 19th century occult revival), and I actually didn't care for LaVey's spiel all too much when I first decided to throw my lot in with Lucifer. However, after I started breaking in this whole "Satanist" identity as a black-clad youngin, I found many of his writings useful and worthy of consideration, and some of his coinages found their way into my personal lexicon. Has he influenced me? Definitely. But is my Satanism fundamentally dependent upon him? Not in the least.


Edited by The Zebu (05/31/16 06:37 PM)
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#106957 - 05/31/16 06:28 PM Re: what brought you to satanism? [Re: Czereda]
antikarmatomic Offline
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Yet LaVey, too, concedes that all magic is satanic magic - that there were, indeed, always satanically inspired authors and actors in the world at large long before he came around. I get the impression he'd be the first to tell anyone he didn't make nothin' new. Granted, anyone could just as well make up any ol' ism or label, look to some notable historical figures or third-person anecdotes, and site their unique qualities and temperaments as concrete demonstrations of the theory behind their handy-dandy ism in action and application ("See that, folks? This is that.") but not too many people actually do - for whatever that's worth. Even so, there was a that prior to the this.

To what extent a that becomes a this distinct and unto itself depends entirely on how far it deviates from origin. The whole thing hinges around if the guy made something entirely new or simply gave whatever "it" is a name or an ism. As much is true of any ism, and it matters about as much in any ism - not in the least.

Many a Satanist there is who, having read the Satanic Bible, simply shrugged and scoffed "that's just one guy's opinion" - and carried happily along ritualistically engaging in all manner of fecal depravity, debauched orgies, and animal cruelty.

Far be it for me to say which witch is which.
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#106960 - 06/01/16 02:00 AM Re: what brought you to satanism? [Re: Czereda]
Dimitri Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Czereda
All the members of this forum, including you and Dimi, are influenced by him.

Came into contact with.
Influenced is a bridge too far. As, despite my initial posts here, the "Satanism" I've been following is quite different from his.

 Originally Posted By: Czereda
There was no Satanism before Anton LaVey. There were only cases of devil worship, most of them imaginary. Satan was simply a scarecrow used by the Church to control the believers.

As mentioned by others in the same tread.. there was.
Not unlike its "modern" incarnation which you hang onto.. but there was.

Devil worship counts as Satanism in my book. Not the kind of practice I'm a huge fan of... but still.

It comes with the plasticity that entails all philosophical and religious labels.


 Originally Posted By: Czereda
I'm tired with the bullshit that some people perpetuate here.

Leave.

It can't be that hard.


Edited by Dimitri (06/01/16 02:05 AM)
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#106961 - 06/01/16 10:35 AM Re: what brought you to satanism? [Re: Dimitri]
CanisMachina42 Offline
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 Originally Posted By: AK
Many a Satanist there is who, having read the Satanic Bible, simply shrugged and scoffed "that's just one guy's opinion"


My cursory glance at TSB (first edition, paperback) came when I was 16, at a friend's house. It was sitting right next to volumes of Vedic text. At that time I was a trendy poser 'Buddhist' so my approach was, "Neat, Satanism!"

I fully was expecting SRA shit, along the lines of Jesus is Lord propaganda, but what I got left me scratching my head saying, "well that seems logical, I don't get the tie-in to Satan. But oh well, more acid."

I don't know what it says, but it didn't really 'click' in the "this is totally me" way. I was more disappointed, really.

On topic: I have to agree, there was an LHP, but not a concise description of "Satanism" prior to the 1960's.

 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
Leave.

It can't be that hard.

Kidding? Bitch is like Delbert Grady, she's always been the caretaker, even by proxy.

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#106964 - 06/01/16 01:14 PM Re: what brought you to satanism? [Re: CanisMachina42]
antikarmatomic Offline
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 Originally Posted By: CM
"well that seems logical, I don't get the tie-in to Satan. But oh well, more acid."
That's the long and short of what I took out of it, as well. An enjoyable read, yes - but a huge part of the SB / SR / and even SW's appeal was very much along the lines of taking fake book covers on subways. - an appeal that cannot be over-stated for an angsty white-boy trapped in the "prison" that is the public education system. It gets oddly twisted and recursive to realize that the real meat and potatoes as to "satanic" part of these pieces of literature was solely in that they were so-titled. I've often heard the whole "finger pointing at the moon" analogy made in reference to this and yet, in actuality, the principle at work do is, in application, the reverse of that in my mind. Peeps are focused on the moon, when in reality it is the finger - the middle one specifically - that gives it anything by way of "teeth". The message is the medium.

As an aside, I find it amusing how infrequently LSD is mentioned in conjunction with Satanism and the occult. It's like it is to be shunned - not spoken about - as if it's taboo, or some red-headed step child or something. It's as if the legitimacy of one's *cough cough* "completely natural spiritual insights" may be called into question the moment they so much as concede a knowing wink. LaVey speaks at length regarding this in a surprisingly dismissive way, and does make some valid points, yet... come'on 1966-1969, San Francisco, freaking people out with this devil stuff - I have my suspicions. One might even go so far as to say that all forms of the occult or alt-religion are in someway inextricably linked to the consumption of at least a few characteristically staple mind-altering substances. How this diminishes the over-all credibility of any "occult movement" is beyond me. If anything, it'd explain ALOT - there's a difference between someone who's done a lot of acid, and someone who's just plain coo-coo for cocoa puffs... or the goddess... or whatever. The latter of which are soup-sandwich for no real reason.

I, for one, look forward to a new wave of occultism - one that revolves entirely around bath salts and PCP: zodacare od zodameranu!

 Originally Posted By: CM
I don't know what it says, but it didn't really 'click' in the "this is totally me" way. I was more disappointed, really.
I have trouble finding anything about the Satanic Bible that anyone could latch on to and be like "dude! this is totally me" it's like why? because he made some points you happen to agree with?

Satanism: "it's, like, my thing"
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#106965 - 06/01/16 04:47 PM Re: what brought you to satanism? [Re: Dimitri]
Czereda Offline
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 Quote:
despite my initial posts here, the "Satanism" I've been following is quite different from his.


So in other words, it was LaVey who brought you here.

No matter how hard one may try to deny it, the great majority of people get introduced to Satanism via Anton LaVey. The Satanic Bible may not be anything revelatory but it still serves as a gateway.

I'm not denying there were various forms of the occult in the past, half Christian/gnostic in nature. Calling it Satanism is a stretch too far, in my opinion. Even Ophite Cultus Sathanas believed in and worshiped God, whom they regarded as a Spirit/Element pervading all nature, unless I misunderstood something.

Anyway, LaVey sort of codified Satanism as we know it today.

Of course, all labels are artificial and flexible and one can claim that all kinds of devil worship qualify as Satanism or that even Christians who masturbate but don't confess it are Satanists. One can stretch this stuff so far that it becomes meaningless.


Edited by Czereda (06/01/16 04:49 PM)
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#106972 - 06/01/16 09:53 PM Re: what brought you to satanism? [Re: Czereda]
antikarmatomic Offline
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 Originally Posted By: CZ
No matter how hard one may try to deny it, the great majority of people get introduced to Satanismvia Anton LaVey.
Alternatively, the great majority of people who are at all comfy talking about having been introduced to Satanism in the first place are those who by “Satanism” mean it in the sense that LaVey meant the word. A simple survey to illustrate what I'm sorta driving at:

1) Was the Satanic Bible at all what you thought it would be prior to ever having read it?
2) Did the word “Satanic” have any connotative or implicit meaning to you prior to having read the Satanic Bible?
3) To what extent, if any, did the implicit meaning of the word “Satanic” influence your decision to read this work?
4) To what extent, if any, did reading this work change the implicit meaning of the word “Satanic” for you?

yeah___ I'm not a huge fan of surveys, either

Point being, if the Satanic Bible were our only introduction to the word “Satanism” I'm certain a solid chunk of us would've passed right over the thing entirely as some other goofy thing with a goofy sounding name by some bald author with an apparent thing for goats (which would not be surprising, given the French sounding name of whats-his-face)

Even if your preconceived notions were somewhat vague and amorphous off the rip, there really wasn't much to elaborate on – what is there to explain? It's the devil FFS. E-v-i-l – and not this accademic pot-head “but what is evil?”/ moral relativity ninesense - evil as in “bad”/”harmful”/”toxic”/”injurious” – point-blank shit you're supposed to avoid as per your very own survival mechanisms necessitate – whatever that is – evil. Witches that kill dead babies (twice, I guess?), robes, graveyards, black cats, pentagrams, a naked prostitute, bound, gagged, with nipples protruding, daggers, a toad, and a chicken (and we all know where the chicken is going)… that's basically what first came to my mind. Shit, that's why I bothered to read it at all in the first place.

It went-over basically like how it goes over when what I thought was going to be a horror flick turned out to be porn. Or vice versa.

It made some good points, or at least passed off a few good points made by others ('don't really care which is more accurately the case), but still, I have to squint real-hard to see what much of any of it has to do with… err… the devil - at least as formerly understood quite intuitively by yours truly. What's more interesting is from whence all these (supposed) preconceived notions and misconceptions came about. Yet the preconceived notions and misconceptions predate the very church that made it its business to ahem clear-up. I couldn't tell you how that's supposed to work-out in anyone's mind, exactly, but apparently it does. The conversation seems to have went “are you guys sacrificing people to the devil?” “no” “but you're satanists?” “yes – we have the legal papers and literature to prove it” “are you sure you're not doing any of that?” “quite sure – we're that other type of satanist” “what other type of satanists?” “the ones that don't do the sorts of things satanists do – we're nonconformist like that” “I see”

One might ask “so, what's with the name?” but, to each their own.

Here's the thing – it doesn't stop there. It's like, for example: let's say my name actually is Adolf Hitler – for whatever reason, maybe my parents have a strange sense of humor; who knows. Or even better and more appropriately: I named myself that. If someone says to me “hey are you Adolf Hitler?” I can say “yeah. I am”. That's all well and good. Now, if that is followed-up with a “The Adolf Hitler? as-in the one that first comes to anyone's mind?”, the answer isn't “Yes, I am the only Adolf Hitler. There is no other. That other guy doesn't exist” - that's just kooky, really – and more importantly, too big of a hook to swallow.

Maybe it makes for a smart and perennially relevant outlet for social commentary, and I get that whole meta-angle, but that exists more as an incidental harmonic. I know it's a stretch, but hear me out: a lot of the draw of Satanism is, for an over-whelming majority of people drawn to it at all, not the Satanic Bible or whatever, but rather that initial exactly-what-the-fuck-you-think-it-means meaning of the word. What's amusing is that some cats have the audacity to explain the discrepancies entirely away as if their misleading advertising practices are mere symptoms of the reader's lack of comprehension. “It's not at all what you had in mind because we know what you had in mind and we say it's not”. This deserves at least a “well played”. A variation of the ol' bait and switch, except the switch is, in someways, redeemable. Not a total loss, just hardly what "we" were shopping for, originally. Some are cool with it, some not so much.
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#106975 - 06/02/16 01:21 AM Re: what brought you to satanism? [Re: Czereda]
Dimitri Offline
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Actually it was through MCoS that I ended up here.
And before I ended up at MCoS it was, weirdly enough, through a Wiccan board where many of the members said my behavior had more in common with Modern Satanism.

I only read the SB in the period during and slightly after I first showed face here. Despite liking certain chapters I already thought certain parts were quite sketchy and even un-inspiring.

So... not really.

 Originally Posted By: Czereda
Anyway, LaVey sort of codified Satanism as we know it today.

Unless ofcourse we're talking about the cock-carousel called ONA which seems to have an attraction and is quite distinct from what you claim to be "codified".

The truth is, starting from the point where you said it was codified, that it was stretched already. Leave it to regular goons like you to harp and dance around to already have it made meaningless.
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#106984 - 06/02/16 04:54 PM Re: what brought you to satanism? [Re: antikarmatomic]
Czereda Offline
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 Originally Posted By: antikarmatomic
To what extent, if any, did reading this work change the implicit meaning of the word “Satanic” for you?


For me, it changed and considerably. I read the Satanic Bible quite late, in my 20s, and I already had some rudimentary knowledge about Satanism which I associated with the Church of Satan. So no I didn't expect to find some horrible things there but I expected it to be more blasphemous. I was quite surprised it was that mild. Still initially I approached it with some unease. But that was later.

When I was a teenager, TSB was in bookstores but I was afraid even to touch it. It was a time when I believed in a Devil, whom I imagined as a hairy monster with horns, hooves and a tail, ready to get you if unnecessarily provoked. Since I was taught that the Holy Bible was a word of God, I also imagined that the Satanic Bible was written with the help of Satan himself.

There was no SRA panic in my country but some prejudices were circulating. I remember watching a half-assed "documentary" on TV about Satanic sects. I don't remember what it was all about except that it was said there that the Satanists kidnapped virgins at the bus stops, dragged them to their lairs and there sacrificed them to the Dark Lord. I remember scratching my head and wondering how they knew the woman at the bus stop was a virgin. Did they check it right there at the bus stop? Or first kidnapped her and checked later? What if the kidnapped woman turned out not to be a virgin? Did they still kill her? Rape her? Or just let her go?

I also remember reading some book about animal sacrifice done by the bad Satanists. It was quite terrible, a thorough description of how some kitten or puppy was mutilated and brutally killed during a sickening ritual. Seriously, the guy who wrote it had a sick imagination. But apart from these two instances, there wasn't much fear mongering.

My views changed after reading some neutral articles about Satanism and visiting the CoS website. Anyway, it was even after I gave up belief in the Devil altogether.

Those preconceived notions about Satanism or the Satanic come from the Christian superstitions. They are quite old but whether those superstitions predate Christianity is debatable. Pagan religions had their pantheons of the dark gods but I wouldn't compare them to the Christian Devil that represents the essence of moral Evil. The pagan religions had their rules and precepts too, sometimes the notion of eternal punishment also appeared, like the Greek Tartarus or the Egyptian judgement of Osiris but the notion of sin is most visible in Abrahamic religions. The pagan gods often behaved in a way that we would nowadays describe as sinful or immoral. Yahweh's behavior leaves much to be desired too.

I don't really see the connection between Satanism and the Christian superstitious vision of the Devil. In my opinion, Satanism is rather doing away with the Christian boogeyman unless you show me widespread cases of virgin sacrifice, eating babies, orgies at cemeteries etc. Most cases of the Devil worship in the past were totally imaginary if you only consider the accusations thrown at the Knights Templar or Freemasons. Even the history of the Black Mass is full of rumors and allegations.

 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
Actually it was through MCoS that I ended up here.


The Modern Church of Satan and also the ONA appeared as a reaction to the Church of Satan. So yeah the MCoS is not influenced by LaVey, not in the least. ;\)


Edited by Czereda (06/02/16 05:04 PM)
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#106985 - 06/02/16 05:44 PM Re: what brought you to satanism? [Re: Creatura Noptii]
fiendish Offline
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What is strange is that you gave the best example of what is inaccurate and untrue. I'm trying to exclude phrases like "I'm pretty sure" and "at least" from my universe of thought, though I'm still susceptible in such ambiguities.
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#106987 - 06/02/16 07:12 PM Re: what brought you to satanism? [Re: Czereda]
antikarmatomic Offline
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 Originally Posted By: CZ
When I was a teenager, TSB was in bookstores but I was afraid even to touch it. It was a time when I believed in a Devil, whom I imagined as a hairy monster with horns, hooves and a tail, ready to get you if unnecessarily provoked. 
That too was part of the appeal – especially at an age when my thought process allowed for the very likely-hood of such a thing existing exactly as advertised and seen on TV. Snakes, and snails, and puppy dog-tails, signed sealed and delivered. Oh sure, it all sounds pretty irrational many years down the road – 20/20 hindsight – but at one time that was a huge part of the appeal. Some peeps are just, by nature (or nurture, 'doesn't matter, really) wired to react to the reviled with curiosity and fascination as opposed to with fear, appall, and/or disgust. Some peeps like to poke at road-kill or see what squirms and scuttles beneath rocks. I was under the impression that it was going to be like the Necronomicon only exponentially darker, sadistic, and revolting – and that, in my mind, at that age, there was a totally real possibility of provoking some malicious entity or other – no bullshit. In some ways it's sort of a cop-out: “we don't actually believe in a literal Devil or demons”. I think it would've made for a much more interesting read if the premise were “yeah. We actually do believe in the guy downstairs, and yeap – he's pissed – 'only a matter of time now, 'better start getting on his good-side post-haste”, and at that age I was expecting something more along those lines. I venture to guess that the author of this book – the Satanic Bible – in choosing to title it as such was pretty much aware that many held similar expectations – for however irrational. One way to avoid living-up-to expectations is reclassify them as popular-misconceptions.

 Originally Posted By: CZ
I remember scratching my head and wondering how they knew the woman at the bus stop was a virgin. Did they check it right there at the bus stop? Or first kidnapped her and checked later? What if the kidnapped woman turned out not to be a virgin? Did they still kill her? Rape her? Or just let her go?
Indeed, this does complicate things. This is just one of the many reasons why children are preferred – it takes a lot of the guess-work out what really is a matter of significant importance. It is, reportedly, permissible to graft a make-shift hymen of toad skin, but who really has time for all that? The raping part, however, is totally fabricated. When properly performed, intercourse occurs postmortem. By definition, that makes it something altogether different than rape. A word to the wise left completely out of this so-called “Satanic Bible”.


 Originally Posted By: CZ
I also remember reading some book about animal sacrifice done by the bad Satanists. It was quite terrible, a thorough description of how some kitten or puppy was mutilated and brutally killed during a sickening ritual. Seriously, the guy who wrote it had a sick imagination. But apart from these two instances, there wasn't much fear mongering.
While I hold no soft-spot in my heart for cats and kittens, I find the thought of torturing, maiming, and killing them for any purpose including food utterly repugnant. Some people are not so disinclined. Some do terrible, terrible things to small animals literally for the lulz. Such people exist. Sociopaths, sadists, call them what you will, they are not “Satanists”, but for different reasons other than a case of mistaken identity or popular misconception. A more thematically consistent differentiation between sadism and ritual practice, is that in the case of the latter, the participants are indeed highly averse to performing such an act as the selected rite requires of them. Transforming society's norms by working counter-current to them is neat and all, but to willfully work counter to your own moral fiber brings with it a profoundly transformative effect on the quote-unquote soul in that, with persistence, it kills it.

For as terrible a proposition as this all sounds, and indeed is, some people find such endeavors quite liberating. Additionally it is useful preparation for situations wherein the conditions of survival do not permit the luxury of conscience.
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#106993 - 06/03/16 01:20 AM Re: what brought you to satanism? [Re: antikarmatomic]
Naama Offline
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 Originally Posted By: antikarmatomic
Many a Satanist there is who, having read the Satanic Bible, simply shrugged and scoffed "that's just one guy's opinion" - and carried happily along ritualistically engaging in all manner of fecal depravity, debauched orgies, and animal cruelty.


So you do not agree that (like it was always in history) successful path of a Satanist/occultist -
- demands (most of the time)
- different sacrifices of different kind, along the way, to achieve the goals,
where a strong stream of energy
has to be released...

And naturally, in addition to what I just said - its self-understood, that:
Other then "alive" being,- nothing really can offer that very level of "energy released".
Isnt so..?
(That's exactly, by the way, why Christians say that "jesus-died-on-cross,)..

Or /you really really think - that "human WILL alone" - (if properly exercised) - "can move mountains"
- like psychology and psychologists suggest to the public- Freud, Jung, and Lavey (on the LHP side)

So

What would that be
first, or second ..?, -
of those two approaches I just brought (in form of 2 basic examples





Edited by Naama (06/03/16 01:38 AM)
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