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#106540 - 04/30/16 07:25 AM Science: a Flawed Paradigm
Naama Offline
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Registered: 07/23/12
Posts: 318
Loc: NewYork
It is known and was a case always
in the light of Satanism and anti-theistic ideas/ology -
that science is often brought up
as straight perfect alternative for: how (intelligent)human should look at things... at the world... at life...

SO. Me... Being free from all kind of conspiracy theories here
and being free from different ideologies (as it often is the case with science criticism/tics)
I am stating
that considering science as best base
for ones worldview
is wrong, and its a big mistake.

Why, youd ask me?

Because all the scientific (eventual) "points"
so to say

are applied and placed onto our society always IN ACCORDANCE WITH POLITICAL AND ECONOMICAL INTERESTS OF LEGIT MAJORITY MAINSTREAM/GOVERNMENT (therefore science being explained and applied into society this way
is radically defeating the whole purpose of it all...)
Its an axiom here! A reality of whats going on...

p.s. and by the way IF so far you don't know yet
that (and why) "legit majority"
is NO good (for Satanist in particular) =
then we wont even be able to have this conversation at all

p.p.s. while of course
scientific method is the best undoubtfully ,
and science in itself in terms of its "pure" (knowledge)
is truly great per se


Edited by Naama (04/30/16 08:01 AM)
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#106542 - 04/30/16 08:48 AM Re: Science: a Flawed Paradigm [Re: Naama]
Creatura Noptii Offline
active member


Registered: 01/02/16
Posts: 950
Loc: Oregon
Its a good point Naama.

What are the motives behind scientific experimentation? How are those motives formulated? Is science the only factor in the process? I doubt it.

Before you people decide to bombard me with your predictable bullshit about making a better future for mankind, or finding 'the facts' I just like to ask something you might even ask me:

How do you know? How do you know the motive of the scientific community is more about information than it is about say, ego, money, social status...

How do you know science has your best interests? I made it clear in another post that science seems to only make people fatter, dumber, and less likely to use their own body. At least our ancestors may have had more time in the wilderness to figure out how to look before they leapt.

No doubt, a lot of what I base that judgement on comes from scientific knowledge. I like science, but I believe there is a great schism between said knowledge and its application. Something in the abyss of that schism mankind has yet to face. You could say science will force us to do so, but I even wonder about that. So far, we've done a lot of horrible things in the name of science, and still it is trusted to no greater extent than people who believe what they see on the news. Hell, its popular and acceptable to believe that science is the way to a greater understanding.

Yet many who make this claim have acquired little to no information on the subject.

We have politicians and celebrities telling us what to do in the name of science. Even the scientists you see on television and radio shows offer just as much opinionated, up in the air commentary as anyone else. Where are the hard facts? Where is the point of no return?

Hell, when do politicians give named credit to the scientists who made discoveries in which they base their political decisions?

Does science only advance? We destroy the living world every day. We kill the trees that give us air, and rake up the dirt that gives us food.

For what? How much of the technology we develop is for a great fundamental cause?

How much is for convenient creature comfort?

Who is in charge of making the hardcore derisions about what to do with technology? Is it scientists? Politicians? Celebrities?

Here I am holding the so called 'great scientific method' in scrutiny. People seem to believe in its ever rigid, unchanging power. Yet, I think the scientific method and applications are just as rudimentary as most people's knowledge of the subject itself.

So I wonder. You can ask, 'what are we going to do' and yet, I will ask, if you are going to do anything, then why? To what end? Let's see how many of us really know the end to any one of our 'great human endeavours.'
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#106544 - 04/30/16 09:59 AM Re: Science: a Flawed Paradigm [Re: Creatura Noptii]
Stick Offline
member


Registered: 06/08/12
Posts: 157
Loc: Benelux
You know, the first fully by humans created ELEMENT was Plutonium and it's first use was in the atom bomb.
That what made the syntheses of the element possible was science.

Truly diabolical.

 Originally Posted By: Creatura Noptii

Here I am holding the so called 'great scientific method' in scrutiny. People seem to believe in its ever rigid, unchanging power. Yet, I think the scientific method and applications are just as rudimentary as most people's knowledge of the subject itself


I do not see how your holding the Scientific method in scrutiny, you are only talking about the application in economic and political context. And what would be the next best thing ? With what would you replace it with ?

S.

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#106545 - 04/30/16 11:42 AM Re: Science: a Flawed Paradigm [Re: Naama]
CanisMachina42 Offline
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Registered: 08/10/13
Posts: 1378
Loc: CA
This used to be one of my favorite debates, but it's like yelling at a fucking wall.

Saying the process alone invalidates it as a comparative approach to gaining knowledge would accomplish nothing, but I'll try again anyway.

I gather your speaking of this trend toward religion becoming replaced by science as the operative meme.

 Originally Posted By: Richard Dawkins
Examples of memes are tunes, ideas, catch-phrases, clothes fashions, ways of making pots or of building arches. Just as genes propagate themselves in the gene pool by leaping from body to body via sperms or eggs, so memes propagate themselves in the meme pool by leaping from brain to brain via a process which, in the broad sense, can be called imitation.


In my opinion governments that function best are those that make distinct effort to downplay the role of religion placing it secondary to the role of the government itself. The legal code is enough to keep most people in line and mindful, especially in the age of PRISM.

I'm all for it. There will always be a control meme, and if I have to be subject to one I'd prefer if it didn't tell me there ARE ferries at the bottom of my garden.

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#106546 - 04/30/16 11:47 AM Re: Science: a Flawed Paradigm [Re: Stick]
Naama Offline
member


Registered: 07/23/12
Posts: 318
Loc: NewYork
Stick, I know your post was not related to mine - directly, and let the gentleman answer it, of course,
yet, this topic is very interesting - so lemme please say a few words on it as well:

1. diabolical?
yes indeed? Bomb is diabolical... raw power... can be used by "the strong one"... yes... its so...
At the same time - along with scientific progress/inventions its such a shame for different societies - to undergo all that governmental agenda

For example "water fluoridation",
what a shame for civilized society as USA to have it in use (by the way if you ll look/research this issue - its so easy to see how leeches ride on the backs of strong - here. which is absolutely anti-satanic, and pro-majority-governmental.
(at least some places in England made it illegal, LOL. good for them)

2. There is no actually such thing (whether in real life or even in theoretical/imaginary life
as scientific method ALONE
the method is excellent and out rules a possibility of a mistake, technically

yet it works ONLY as application (what I said before),
since all the scientific "conclusions" r being carefully adjusted to the profit/benefit of corrupted political (and other) "rulers".
Soo...
Basically the first step in this "possible" "alternative" for us, (which u VERY reasonably inquiring about)
- is just for all of us - not "buying" into all these lies,
and contrary toit: carefully considering (being aware) of these implementations...
So again, for us Satanists, LHP/ers - this usual anti-theistic practice of throwing "scientific bone" as a "perfect weapon" to fight religious ignorance
= becomes somewhat incorrect and inconsiderate.
(so I started all this topic...)
to stop, to clarify, to specify... certain things and meanings
"Devil'z is'n' t'details" (c.)


Edited by Naama (04/30/16 12:14 PM)
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#106549 - 04/30/16 12:52 PM Re: Science: a Flawed Paradigm [Re: Naama]
Stick Offline
member


Registered: 06/08/12
Posts: 157
Loc: Benelux
 Originally Posted By: Stephen Hawking
“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge.”


That says it all.

If a technology is created by the scientific method,
the person who is wielding the technology has to keep using the method him or her self when applying the technology.

S.

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#106550 - 04/30/16 01:23 PM Re: Science: a Flawed Paradigm [Re: Creatura Noptii]
antikarmatomic Offline
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Registered: 09/22/13
Posts: 3208
Loc: El Mundo
@Naama
 Originally Posted By: NA
It is known and was a case always
in the light of Satanism and anti-theistic ideas/ology -
that science is often brought up
as straight perfect alternative for: how (intelligent)human should look at things... at the world... at life...
Yeah, well a lot of goofy things are also brought up in light of Satanism and anti-theistic ideology. A solid chunk of the types of people who are drawn to this sorta thing simply aren't playing with a full bag of marbles. All science is, in a nut-shell, is the study of how stuff works through observation and experimentation. The scientific method is, well, a method – one of many methods. It's not an alternative for anything – it's another tool in the ol' tool box.

 Originally Posted By: NA
Because all the scientific (eventual) "points"
so to say

are applied and placed onto our society always IN ACCORDANCE WITH POLITICAL AND ECONOMICAL INTERESTS OF LEGIT MAJORITY MAINSTREAM/GOVERNMENT (therefore science being explained and applied into society this way
is radically defeating the whole purpose of it all...)
Its an axiom here! A reality of whats going on...
I'm actually having a real hard time following what it is you are trying to say here, but if I'm smelling what you're stepping in correctly, I can only say: blame capitalism, not science. Many a scientist is just as displeased with this state of affairs as you are. Even so, particle accelerators are not cheap, and plutonium mines don't just grow on trees, ya know. The capital required to fund research comes either from the state or private investors who are damn sure going to want some sort of ROI. Don't hate the player, hate the game.

@CN Just 5 question marks shy of a game of 20 questions, and not a single point to be found. 'Reminds me an awful lot of that dude who came around peddling Interrojizm for a stint. You two should hook-up, I predict a bromance made in heaven.

 Originally Posted By: CN
What are the motives behind scientific experimentation?
Curiosity, usually. Sometimes boredom. Sometimes just plain ol' wanting to break stuff to see how it works.

 Originally Posted By: CN
How are those motives formulated?
No one's really sure yet, but I'll bet my left nut that if anyone figures it out, it'll be scientists – probably those specializing in the field of physiological psychology, neurobiology, and or endocrinology.

 Originally Posted By: CN
Is science the only factor in the process?
I doubt it too, but seldom is there ever only one factor to consider regarding anything that warrants questioning.

 Originally Posted By: CN
Before you people decide to bombard me with your predictable bullshit about making a better future for mankind, or finding 'the facts' I just like to ask something you might even ask me
Damn! I thought you were making a point – turns out you were just leading into another question. Anyway, don't look at me. I tend to go with “for fun and profit”.

 Originally Posted By: CN
How do you know? How do you know the motive of the scientific community is more about information than it is about say, ego, money, social status...
You speak of the scientific community as if it's some sort of exclusive institution with a rigorous application process and membership dues – it's just a figure of speech, like “Satanic community” and in doing so you're painting with way-the-fuck too broad of a brush. I'm certain the motives vary widely from scientist to scientist, but to answer your question, I neither know, nor care what their motives are. I only care about the results. If being motivated by profit, ego, or social status drives results, fine.

 Originally Posted By: CN
How do you know science has your best interests?
I don't even assume that. It's science, man – an abstraction. It's not my mom or anything weirdO

 Originally Posted By: CN
I made it clear in another post that science seems to only make people fatter, dumber, and less likely to use their own body.
You didn't make it clear so much as you did piss and moan about it like science turned you down for prom or something.

^this guy may be your ancestor

Even so, science doesn't make people become more anything – at best it just facilitates their inclinations, helping them to do it faster – whatever “it” is, for better or worse.

 Originally Posted By: CN
At least our ancestors may have had more time in the wilderness to figure out how to look before they leapt.
and guess where they leaped. Here. They leaped here, dude. No one's stopping you from Walden Pond'ing it.

 Originally Posted By: CN

No doubt, a lot of what I base that judgement on comes from scientific knowledge. I like science, but I believe there is a great schism between said knowledge and its application. Something in the abyss of that schism mankind has yet to face. You could say science will force us to do so, but I even wonder about that. So far, we've done a lot of horrible things in the name of science, and still it is trusted to no greater extent than people who believe what they see on the news. Hell, its popular and acceptable to believe that science is the way to a greater understanding.

Yet many who make this claim have acquired little to no information on the subject.

Yeah, and you offer even less.

So far, all you've managed to say is “Science does bad stuff, so we should live in caves”. Moreover, it's still fucking weird that you even hold to a measure of “horrible things” when you also claim that the only certainty is death. You've never managed to reconcile this, either.

 Originally Posted By: CN
We have politicians and celebrities telling us what to do in the name of science. Even the scientists you see on television and radio shows offer just as much opinionated, up in the air commentary as anyone else. Where are the hard facts? Where is the point of no return?
The hard facts: if they were up your ass you'd know. You're not doing anything different than these politicians and celebrities are.

 Originally Posted By: CN
Hell, when do politicians give named credit to the scientists who made discoveries in which they base their political decisions?
I'm sure it happens about as frequently as scientists give credit to the politicians that managed to get their funding approved.

 Originally Posted By: CN
Does science only advance? We destroy the living world every day. We kill the trees that give us air, and rake up the dirt that gives us food.
Fast fact: living things die. If we don't kill it, something else will.

 Originally Posted By: CN
For what? How much of the technology we develop is for a great fundamental cause?
Only the most fundamental of causes there are: “fun and profit”

 Originally Posted By: CN
Who is in charge of making the hardcore derisions about what to do with technology? Is it scientists? Politicians? Celebrities?
Whoever is using it.

 Originally Posted By: CN
Here I am holding the so called 'great scientific method' in scrutiny. People seem to believe in its ever rigid, unchanging power. Yet, I think the scientific method and applications are just as rudimentary as most people's knowledge of the subject itself.
The way I see it, you're still just shaking your fist at clouds, man. You've offered nothing by way of an alternative that doesn't involve wiping my ass with leaves – we've been down that road – it lead us here. You want to turn tail and run backwards on account of a bunch of stupid questions that you yourself have not offered any answers to – I say go for it! Go move to the Amazon, but count me out. Lets hope for your sake, all your questions will be enough to stop the bulldozers. \:D

 Originally Posted By: CN
So I wonder. You can ask, 'what are we going to do' and yet, I will ask, if you are going to do anything, then why? To what end? Let's see how many of us really know the end to any one of our 'great human endeavours.'


I repeat: “Why do dogs lick their nuts?”
“because they can”.


Edited by antikarmatomic (04/30/16 01:33 PM)
Edit Reason: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=091f2twCAvc
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#106552 - 04/30/16 01:56 PM Re: Science: a Flawed Paradigm [Re: Stick]
Naama Offline
member


Registered: 07/23/12
Posts: 318
Loc: NewYork
 Quote:
Stephen Hawking

“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge.”


This quote is nice, but not easy

I'd metaphorically compare this quote
to a nice nut
with its buttery insides
that has to be cracked yet... breaking it's shell...

I'd really love to hear a STORY EXPLAINing and elaborating what Stephen Hawkings meant by that...

( by the way - me-be-ing always in search for eye-opening quote
where there is a sudden revelation plus a quote itself contributing to a long-time gnosis...)

Stick, I think I have to write now further a little post
about example with "water fluoridation issue",

And its Hell of an example, by the way, showing, how government
ruthlessly using "science" to promote its stable RHP agenda
(all governments are specializing in that ...)...

so you'll see how the "scientific method

does not go any further in our society,
then, a walls of a lab (where, a scientific discovery was established and written down by pale curly nerd with dirty nails in glasses and oversized stripped tank hoodie...)



Edited by Naama (04/30/16 02:06 PM)
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#106553 - 04/30/16 02:41 PM Re: Science: a Flawed Paradigm [Re: Naama]
Stick Offline
member


Registered: 06/08/12
Posts: 157
Loc: Benelux
 Originally Posted By: Naama

I'd really love to hear a STORY EXPLAINing and elaborating what Stephen Hawkings meant by that...


Well, I do not know exactly what Hawkins his intend of transfer was, but I can tell you mine, how I interpret it especially in the context of your post:

It sometime is better to know your own ignorance and not be acting, then knowing a little, thinking you understand, and acting without seeing the whole of implications.

Better even is to withhold action and dig deep into the matter inquire from more sources and acting strong when having the big picture.
Sometimes it is needed to open the blackbox and understand how it works, sometimes it is not enough to only see it's effects.

S.

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#106555 - 04/30/16 06:38 PM Re: Science: a Flawed Paradigm [Re: Creatura Noptii]
Czereda Online
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Registered: 03/14/11
Posts: 2092
Loc: Poland
 Originally Posted By: Creatura Noptii
How do you know science has your best interests?


There is this saying: You will know them by their fruit. We live longer than people in the past and our lives are of better quality. The development of medicine, the improvement of hygiene, the opportunities technology offers etc, all these things make our lives better. I'm far from glorifying science and turning it into a new religion. Scientists are humans too and all humans are fallible. We all want money and social status and, let's not kid ourselves, we need to sustain ourselves and our families. The same goes for scientists. Scientists can make mistakes too and they also have their political and religious views. There are also many things that science has not yet discovered. There are things we still don't know and illnesses we can't cure but we have made a huge progress.

 Quote:
I made it clear in another post that science seems to only make people fatter, dumber, and less likely to use their own body.


I'm not sure what science has to do with obesity, people's stupidity or their unwillingness to exercise. Do you want to convince me that you go everywhere on foot and never use any means of transport? Do you think that people in the past knew more or were generally more intelligent? Most of the knowledge we have today comes from science.

 Quote:
So far, we've done a lot of horrible things in the name of science


So what? Science is just a tool, like a knife. You can use the knife to slice the meat with or cut the carrots or you can use it to stab someone or slit his throat. If you choose the latter, will it be the knife's fault? The same goes for science. It can be used for the benefit of mankind or for some nefarious purpose. If one day we nuke the shit out of each other, will it be the fault of science?

 Quote:
Yet many who make this claim have acquired little to no information on the subject.


So what? Science is practical. I don't have to be an expert to use the products of technology. I regularly use the appliances in my kitchen without wrapping my head around how they were produced. When I flush my toilet, I don't keep wondering what happens to my pee and poop later on. Where I live, there is a sewage treatment plant nearby and it doesn't always smell well but if everyone in my neighborhood started throwing their waste out into the streets, like our ancestors used to do, then it would be much much worse.

 Quote:
We destroy the living world every day. We kill the trees that give us air, and rake up the dirt that gives us food.


Nature kills more organisms than us humans. Nature kills regularly. All of the dinosaurs were wiped out in the blink of an eye. Regularly, in the news I hear about some baby bear or other wild animal abandoned by the mother in the wilderness and left to die or sick animals - all rescued by humans. If left without help, they would die. Nature doesn't care.
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#106557 - 05/01/16 01:26 AM Re: Science: a Flawed Paradigm [Re: Czereda]
Creatura Noptii Offline
active member


Registered: 01/02/16
Posts: 950
Loc: Oregon
 Originally Posted By: Czereda
There are also many things that science has not yet discovered. There are things we still don't know and illnesses we can't cure but we have made a huge progress.


You waste your energy on useless cognition, Czereda.

Tell me what progress means, and to what end it serves, and I'll get back to you on this matter, saying I find your nonsense worth my while.


 Originally Posted By: Czereda
I'm not sure what science has to do with obesity, people's stupidity or their unwillingness to exercise. Do you want to convince me that you go everywhere on foot and never use any means of transport? Do you think that people in the past knew more or were generally more intelligent? Most of the knowledge we have today comes from science.


And their science and our science are different. Theirs had to do with testing their own backbone and flesh in tandem with the living world. Our society tests itself against cubicles and time cards.

If you can't figure out what fat stupid people can't figure out, then what does that make of you?

If science is to blame, then surly mankind is the problem?

 Originally Posted By: Czereda
but if everyone in my neighborhood started throwing their waste out into the streets, like our ancestors used to do, then it would be much much worse.


At least the ground will bio-decay your waste. The streets will keep it there for weeks.

Are you simply presenting yourself as a post for me to sharpen my claws upon? Playing adversary?

Would it be worse Czereda, or have we simply found a way to hide greater mass quantities of shit? How much do we know of our ancestors to test ourselves against?

At least they found ways to survive in the living world... ways most people today have little to no ability to comprehend. True agility is a rare thing in our most precious technologically advanced society...

 Originally Posted By: Czereda
Nature kills more organisms than us humans. Nature kills regularly. All of the dinosaurs were wiped out in the blink of an eye. Regularly, in the news I hear about some baby bear or other wild animal abandoned by the mother in the wilderness and left to die or sick animals - all rescued by humans. If left without help, they would die. Nature doesn't care.


I wonder if nature, being what it is, kills more than we humans. You and I have a different understanding of nature.

So is it the ways in which humans kill, that other life forms do not?

One thing you obviously have yet to learn is this:

Nature cares.

I guarantee it.

What part of nature do you take as being different, or separate from us human beings?

Perhaps SIN was right. Perhaps the void is never empty, but always full. Unseen things in the abyss, crawling in the dark, even if we refuse to look upon them.

Nature is The Devil.
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#106558 - 05/01/16 02:18 AM Re: Science: a Flawed Paradigm [Re: Naama]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3314
Apart from the usual fucked-up manner of writing and making half-assed arguments... "flawed", in your case, should probably be translated to "trainwreck".

 Originally Posted By: Naama
that science is often brought up
as straight perfect alternative for: how (intelligent)human should look at things... at the world... at life...

Brought up by unintelligent human beings who look to science as an alternative for religion. In reality it merely envelops an objective method to analyze and gather data.

 Originally Posted By: Naama
Because all the scientific (eventual) "points"
so to say

Data and information is neutral. The interpretation and "modification" might be a lot more biased.

Political researchers may gather data and state Bernie Sanders will win the presidential race... while reality will play the "Trump"-card.

Something having to do with biased analyzation...

Another example:
One study reveals vaccination causes autism. Media roars and jumps with headlines. People stop vaccinating themselves and their children leading towards a massive decline of the human populace... Somehow the thousands of other studies which indicate or disprove that one study were neglected, forgotten or put aside.

The common red line in both cases would be good old human stupidity and favouring the "fun"-side over the more boring truthful side.
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#106559 - 05/01/16 03:42 AM Re: Science: a Flawed Paradigm [Re: Creatura Noptii]
Stick Offline
member


Registered: 06/08/12
Posts: 157
Loc: Benelux
What are we debating here ?
Science as a method?
Technology ?
The appliance of technology by politics ?

Sure Science and Technology are interconnected but I do not understand why scientific method as a tool to knowledge could even be in question.

What would there be left ? Or what method should give a "better" outcome, and were would it be based on ?

S.

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#106570 - 05/01/16 01:57 PM Re: Science: a Flawed Paradigm [Re: Stick]
Naama Offline
member


Registered: 07/23/12
Posts: 318
Loc: NewYork
 Quote:
You will know them by their fruit. We live longer than people in the past and our lives are of better quality. The development of medicine, the improvement of hygiene, the opportunities technology offers etc, all these things make our lives better.

Cancer is growing, allergies and auto-immune deceases. Things are not improving these days overall...
Anna, I politely assume
that you will not proceed and progress (in your writing and intellectual persuasions) with this "happy-go-lucky" attitude.
A good "writer" first notices a tragedy and the worst. It takes this "black" "keen" eye to see the utmost darkness...
Than, - comes the allevation of it which is your (will be) job to do.

 Quote:
Apart from the usual fucked-up manner of writing

CaptainObvious, please, do not criticize what you cannot change.
Im simply aiming for search of the truth and reality... that's alll

 Quote:
In reality it merely envelops an objective method to analyze and gather data.


that I know
 Quote:
The interpretation and "modification" might be a lot more biased.[/quotq]
yes, that what I'm kinda sorta hinting at.


[quote]One study reveals vaccination causes autism

most kids are strong enough not to get autism after vaccine(or anything at all)

yet only a Nazi society would make it impossible for individual to refuse injecting anything in its body...


Edited by Naama (05/01/16 02:03 PM)
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#106571 - 05/01/16 02:21 PM Re: Science: a Flawed Paradigm [Re: Naama]
CanisMachina42 Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/10/13
Posts: 1378
Loc: CA
 Quote:
Cancer is growing, allergies and auto-immune deceases. Things are not improving these days overall...


I guarantee you it's dietary (feast or famine), as countless scientific studies have shown.

Then I saw this.

 Originally Posted By: Dimitri

One study reveals vaccination causes autism. Media roars and jumps with headlines. People stop vaccinating themselves and their children leading towards a massive decline of the human populace..

The common red line in both cases would be good old human stupidity and favouring the "fun"-side over the more boring truthful side.


 Originally Posted By: Namma
most kids are strong enough not to get autism after vaccine(or anything at all)


This must be preserved.

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