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#111144 - 01/09/17 12:15 PM Re: The Inevitable Impasse of Satanism [Re: SIN3]
antikarmatomic Offline
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The impasse he's referring to is that of extricating the name Satan from its Abrahamic context. 'Cant' be done, but so what? Not only do I see no need to, I get a lot more out of it by leaving it largely tact.

It is no bruise to my ego to concede man's supposed dual nature: animal and angelic. Animal, for certain. Angelic, I suspect 'so' but cannot prove and make not attempt to do so. Whatever the case, the rejection of the latter for whatever the reason (there are literally hundreds to pick from) leaves one with the former: man's corporeal nature, from whence all the fleshly appetites to which Satan traditionally appeals have their origin.

"You have created me from fire and You have made him from clay"

Man. Simply another lowly animal.

That is "his" truth. A truth. It is the current of Ayin. Lord of the gates of matter. Child of the forces of time. The Devil.

I see no impasse here. No contracts signed. No console implored. It is a thing intrinsic to the human condition itself.
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#111145 - 01/09/17 01:11 PM Re: The Inevitable Impasse of Satanism [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
Fnord Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Michael A.Aquino
That's a sort of a polite bucket of cold water for its current participants to quit this sublimated self-flagellation and go be your real, authentic selves. I did my version of this by wring the COS history book, then getting on with new adventures.


I would certainly defer to your expertise regarding the C/S in historical context. I would even go so far as to defer to your expertise/knowledge of the foundational tenets of Satanism (as it relates to the C/S).

One of the points that you make rather consistently (while often posting an accompanying Monty Python video) is that people need to understand and work with their individuality versus following a 'leader'. The whole of 600c are people who have rejected the ideas of a Satanic 'hierarchy' and who seek to define themselves as individuals separate of any official organization.

To you, this is 'self flagellation' despite the fact that it's exactly what you consistently suggest.

If you re-read your post in that light then you'll see that you set yourself up as omniscient (one who knows the only true way) and are, therefore, authorized in some way to impose judgement.

600c has proven itself to not be a place where people come to find a prescribed path (be it Satanism, Setianism, O9Aism etc) but precisely a place to hone in on individuality and test it out on others.

It's odd to me that because it doesn't fit into your world view of what "Satanism" ought to be that you'd suggest it be closed. Why? Just because your purpose here has been served it doesn't mean that it's not a useful place for others (and how do you know people aren't 'out being their authentic selves' while enjoying posting here?).

It's all exploration and headspace for people who've gotten a glimpse of the way of the world that exists behind the curtain. No one knows exactly what it is but 'we' suspect that there might be some sort of machinery that operates in (as yet) mystery and so we seek to understand it and our place in context. You labeled it "Set", some call god or the devil, some argue about parameters and whether or not it exists at all. All good. Doubt in practice.

The population here remains unconvinced by/skeptical of anyone who claims to have a cohesive answer (because we're individuals). I respect YOU for your answer (that works for you)... people who've followed you...? Not so sure.

Basically, I'm only 'lost' by your definition.




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#111151 - 01/09/17 05:31 PM Re: The Inevitable Impasse of Satanism [Re: antikarmatomic]
SIN3 Offline
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 Originally Posted By: MA
As is well-known, the "crisis of 1975" which saw the disintegration of the original Church of Satan and its phœnix-like reconstitution as the Temple of Set was precipitated by Anton LaVey's May announcement that henceforth all initiatory degrees would simply be for sale rather than as earned magical and religious credentials.


Either he's willfully being dense or just refuses to accept the point that LaVey was making by selling off titles. I hardly think he's referring to extracting 'Satan' for any purpose. He's one of these doe-eyed "Lets go do something important together" types and he's aged. End of narrative.
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#111156 - 01/09/17 07:37 PM Re: The Inevitable Impasse of Satanism [Re: SIN3]
antikarmatomic Offline
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Yeah, I'd probably come to that same conclusion too if I sucked at reading comprehension and didn't know what "extricate" meant.

Anyway...
 Originally Posted By: Fnord
I would certainly defer to your expertise regarding the C/S in historical context. I would even go so far as to defer to your expertise/knowledge of the foundational tenets of Satanism (as it relates to the C/S).


Why??? This wrinkled twat flatly doesn't grok it. Never has, never will. He wanted an ascent into the ethereal. LaVey's Satanism is an unflinching head-long dive into corporeality.

and @ MA
 Originally Posted By: MA

Bluntly, no one here believes in the mythology of J/C, hence in its counter-mythology of Satan.
Speak for yourself, kook.
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#111159 - 01/09/17 10:54 PM Re: The Inevitable Impasse of Satanism [Re: antikarmatomic]
Fnord Offline
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As far as I know, neither one of us ever had a personal conversation w/LaVey.

Aquino did and has posted a fair bit of evidence backing up claims RE: C/S pre '75.

I don't care all that much about ASL so I'm willing to accept what Aquino says about him.
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#111160 - 01/09/17 11:25 PM Re: The Inevitable Impasse of Satanism [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
XiaoGui17 Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Michael A.Aquino
Which raises the question of the 600C. Ostensibly it was created as a forum for serious, sophisticated Satanism [much as the more intellectual later developments of the original Church].

As one who is not a creator, I can't really speculate as to the purpose of its creation, but I will say that isn't really what I come here for. I'd go so far as to say anyone searching an internet forum of any type for "serious, sophisticated Satanism" is on a wild goose chase.

 Quote:
Bluntly, no one here believes in the mythology of J/C, hence in its counter-mythology of Satan.

Demonstrably false, many have come through that clearly did. But they don't count, huh? You only seen to care about the stubborn ones that don't--who admittedly make up the bulk of quality contributers. Is that what bothers you?

 Quote:
You've failed.

At...what? To fail implies an endeavor was undertaken in the first place. My endeavors are my own affair, but the 600 Club--to me--was never an endeavor. It was a place to unwind when I needed a break from them.

 Quote:
600C has faded into little more than a gripe forum - about everything from booze to movies.

"Faded"? Was it meant to be more? It's an internet forum.

 Quote:
This can be diverting and amusing, but Satanism it ain't.

Insert audio clip of foghorn playing "Noooooo shiiiiiiiit."

 Quote:
You're spinning your wheels here, people.

Nah, just shooting the shit, on the odd days when I drop in.
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#111164 - 01/10/17 05:42 AM Re: The Inevitable Impasse of Satanism [Re: Fnord]
antikarmatomic Offline
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While I do not doubt in the least that Aquino had conversations with LaVey, these were, at the end of the day, personal conversations. They do not reflect what LaVey was intending to articulate formally as Satanism.

As with anyone of even marginal observational and experiential faculties, over the span of years, one's ideas concerning the nature of reality continue to undergo refinement. This is never more evident than when in the midst of casual conversation. Who doesn't, from time to time and in private company, entertain notions they do not necessarily believe for the sake of discussion? This is to be expected. It is not necessary for either you nor I to have had personal conversation with LaVey in order to grok his vision of Satanism. The published material speaks for itself. *The bulk of which whose core message, I might add, doesn't even originate with LaVey in the first place!

Aquino is not an authority on Satanism. Aquino is an authority on the private conversations he held with a friend he had long since abandoned in favor of his own superstitious fetishes.
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#111171 - 01/10/17 09:06 AM Re: The Inevitable Impasse of Satanism [Re: antikarmatomic]
Dimitri Offline
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History is written by those victorious. Considering the travesty and current abyssimal state the CoS is in with its current administration, I'm more inclined to credit Michael. There's an unsettling and inconvenient truth to it which heavily clashes with the popular image most hang onto.

Besides, while there's tons of interviews and letters stating his "Atheism"... These are still his public words and not private thoughts. So sure, hang onto the idea he claimed so himself publicly.. but there's still possibilty as no one here could/can read minds. A far-fetched argument perhaps. But one that could best be consodered... especially if we talk about someone who was a renowned conman.
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#111172 - 01/10/17 09:12 AM Re: The Inevitable Impasse of Satanism [Re: antikarmatomic]
Fnord Offline
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 Originally Posted By: antikarmatomic

Aquino is not an authority on Satanism. Aquino is an authority on the private conversations he held with a friend he had long since abandoned in favor of his own superstitious fetishes.


Did I say authority?

I said what he says is good enough for ME.

Phrase it however you wish. Or waste hours nitpicking opinion. Your choice is, as ever, inconsequential to me.
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#111174 - 01/10/17 11:13 AM Re: The Inevitable Impasse of Satanism [Re: Fnord]
Zeno Offline
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Decades from now when many of the 1960/70's era of Satanism are dead, people will write about what Michael Aquino wrote or said, and he will be an authority respected and recorded, whilst many Satanist forum commentators such as myself will be forgotten and irrelevant.
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#111175 - 01/10/17 11:20 AM Re: The Inevitable Impasse of Satanism [Re: Dimitri]
antikarmatomic Offline
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Whether LaVey himself was an Atheist or not is neither relevant nor is it what I'm saying

What I am saying is, in regards to this:
 Originally Posted By: MA
Satan is, always has been, and always will be the supernatural Prince of Darkness as seen through the lens of Judæo-Christianity, and Satanism is his fealty and worship by those who have sworn themselves to him. Period.

So if you can acknowledge and commit to this, you have a right to the dignity of "Satanist".


What book were you reading??? A case for this can and has been made by others, but not LaVey as a founding tenet of the C/S; the current state of which is neither here nor there.
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#111176 - 01/10/17 11:25 AM Re: The Inevitable Impasse of Satanism [Re: Fnord]
Creatura Noptii Offline
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*General reply:

Trying to understand human nature is what brought me here. There are people here who have some admirable insight on the subject. I've read a lot and all I can say is, its been fun. I think I've gotten a handle on what I came here for. But I'm still down to discuss the matter further.

Creature of the night, sure, but in the end I'm just a guy livin' my life.

These days I drop in mostly to shoot the shit.

In any case, yes, there comes an eventual impasse of Satanism. It happens when people decide there are other things to talk about sometimes, like books and movies and music, or life in general.

Thus the subject of Satanism comes to a temporary halt.

\:D

"Don't worry asshole, you'll get another chance."


Edited by Creatura Noptii (01/10/17 11:27 AM)
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#111178 - 01/10/17 11:45 AM Re: The Inevitable Impasse of Satanism [Re: antikarmatomic]
SIN3 Offline
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 Originally Posted By: AK
Yeah, I'd probably come to that same conclusion too if I sucked at reading comprehension and didn't know what "extricate" meant.


There's nothing to work out, not then and sure as shit not now. Why does it need to be done again? I also don't believe that's the impasse he's whining about but I can see how you draw your conclusions by not understanding the context of his beef.

But hey, pull my pig tails if it makes your dick hard.
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#111182 - 01/10/17 05:07 PM Re: The Inevitable Impasse of Satanism [Re: antikarmatomic]
Czereda Online
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 Quote:
While I do not doubt in the least that Aquino had conversations with LaVey, these were, at the end of the day, personal conversations. They do not reflect what LaVey was intending to articulate formally as Satanism.


And even those personal conversations were filtered through Aquino's subjective perspective. People often hear what they want to hear and interpret the words of others accordingly. Confirmation bias.

Aquino's magnum opus titled "The Church of Satan" is also nothing more than his own personal view of the Church of Satan. Although to his credit, he included plenty of the CoS original official and unofficial documents, which lets the readers form their own opinions about the events described.


Edited by Czereda (01/10/17 05:11 PM)
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#111188 - 01/10/17 08:42 PM Re: The Inevitable Impasse of Satanism [Re: Czereda]
antikarmatomic Offline
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Indeed, and Setianism is certainly its own thing, but it's wholly and fundamentally incompatible with Satanism.

The moment one acts according to the notion that man has a spiritual nature at all, they're simply not in Satanism territory any more. That's neither good nor bad - I too have odd occulty beliefs - but these are not inherently satanic beliefs by any stretch of the imagination. They are categorized within their own operational modality.

The question comes up regarding curses and the occult: are these not spiritual phenomenon? According to Satanism, no. Satanism's occultism is more aptly described as "psuedo-occultism" which, you'll have to excuse the seemingly negative connotation, is essentially the stance that magic is stuff for which there does not yet exist a full scientific explanation for, and is occult only because it is not yet well understood - not because it is of a spiritual nature. Man does not have a spiritual nature.

Such is the symbolism of the devil - Pan. Man as animal. By some traditions, this is also Satan's scriptural assertion, and (implicitly) the reasoning behind his refusal to prostrate before Adam as commanded in defiance of the most high. Though not entirely necessary, one can get a lot out of this symbolism, and the natural conclusions of whole-hardheartedly agreeing with the implications of this sentiment is thematically consistent with LaVeyan tenets - regardless of how unbalanced it may seem.

Moreover, and most importantly "Man has always created his gods, rather than his gods creating him". This is also a core tenet of Satanism. Once you step out of that and say otherwise, then what you are dealing with - and I don't judge it, mind you - simply isn't compatible with LaVeyan Satanism. Asserting that man's isolate consciousness is "the gift of Set" is not a "natural progression" of those core tenets, it is a radical and irreconcilable departure from them.

*Edit: While I do have some criticisms of what it is that LaVey articulated as Satanism - these are levied at the thing as it stands in and of itself. I could never go so far as to suggest that the man must've meant something else - especially when the core message wasn't even authored by him!

How do you argue that you know what the guy really meant to say was X because you've had private conversations with him, when he wasn't even the one to originally say it?! The literature of the C/S is simply not challenging enough to warrant that sort of debate.
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