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#111331 - 01/26/17 09:11 PM Re: Fuck Peter Carroll [Re: CanisMachina42]
samowens84 Offline
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Registered: 09/29/16
Posts: 513
I don't think the two exist in a binary. For example, I've drawn inspiration from Milton's Satan for being unwilling to cease resistance even in the face of certain defeat. It certainly helped me when I had a job as a grant writer. However, in my day to day affairs it helps to be somewhat emotionally removed from the herd, so that's when the transcendent bit works for me. I think the two can be harmonized if one adopts them in a situational kind of way. Works for me I guess, may not for everyone, cause as Sin3 said, it's an individual journey.

Edited by samowens84 (01/26/17 09:12 PM)

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#111333 - 01/27/17 10:01 AM Re: Fuck Peter Carroll [Re: SIN3]
samowens84 Offline
member


Registered: 09/29/16
Posts: 513
 Originally Posted By: SIN3
 Originally Posted By: samowens84
For me, it's liberation from self-deception, or certain thought patterns that would turn the reigns over to an outward force.


Fair enough. Each at their own level and in their own time.


 Quote:

I think confessional culture has something to do with that, whereas people are conditioned to not feel ok about themselves unless someone knows "the real them." Or belief in an objective universal reality as a uniting force that privileges "outsider" opinions.


How do you account for the opposite effect? Having been raised in a Roman Catholic household, I can tell you - many don't put much stock in it. People lie to their Priest with just a much ease a stranger on the street. It's a half-hearted belief. I've witnessed far more guilt over what one's own Mother thinks than whatever was unloaded on Confession day. My point is, people keep their secrets, to sway those opinions because gossip is commerce.


 Quote:
From what I understand there are certain thought patterns that threaten personal autonomy that have been conditioned in the collective unconscious, and I use these few as an example. I would agree with you that simple adolescent oppositional defiance is not the mark of a free mind, and is a sign that one is waiting for permission to act in accordance with one's own will.


You say this as if you've read up but have no real hands-on experience with it yourself. Have you never grappled with conflicting notions in your own head? Questioned where your own wants and needs come from? What the real uses of identity are?



Just wanted to make one more observation. It's obvious that the limitations of language or, perhaps, poor communication, can lend itself to projecting yourself onto a neutral text. For example, I say "confessional" and assumptions are made that I can only be referring to the Catholic sacrament of confession, which as you said relates to your experience. This is amusing as it relates to something that I have been thinking about recently, and that language, especially text, is woefully insufficient to transmit subjective experience. Perhaps it is beyond the scope to expect anyone to move beyond their prejudice and bias, especially within a written platform. Of course, if you truly were confused about what I meant, although it's obvious that you misunderstood me, I suppose the responsible action would be to ask for clarification. However, I really don't have much care for it, except it's gratifying that although you've taken an adversarial role to my position, you also partially validate it unwittingly. This exchange is certainly proving to be amusing.

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#111335 - 01/27/17 11:22 AM Re: Fuck Peter Carroll [Re: samowens84]
SIN3 Offline
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Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 7190
Loc: Virginia
 Quote:
Just wanted to make one more observation. It's obvious that the limitations of language or, perhaps, poor communication, can lend itself to projecting yourself onto a neutral text. For example, I say "confessional" and assumptions are made that I can only be referring to the Catholic sacrament of confession,


No, you misunderstand. I was using that as a basis for unloading so-called truthful errs on your own behalf. The same is true with unloading on a friend or family member. People rarely tell the other party the whole story or the truth.

Say for instance, I'm a pedophile. I'm not exactly going to tell my Mother the whole story about my impulses yanno? There's still a self-shame aspect there because of outside judgment. That's why I closed with "My point is...."

I hope that clarifies. Written medium is like a rabbit hole sometimes.


 Quote:
which as you said relates to your experience. This is amusing as it relates to something that I have been thinking about recently, and that language, especially text, is woefully insufficient to transmit subjective experience. Perhaps it is beyond the scope to expect anyone to move beyond their prejudice and bias, especially within a written platform. Of course, if you truly were confused about what I meant, although it's obvious that you misunderstood me, I suppose the responsible action would be to ask for clarification. However, I really don't have much care for it, except it's gratifying that although you've taken an adversarial role to my position, you also partially validate it unwittingly. This exchange is certainly proving to be amusing.


I wasn't confused at all, See: The Shadow Self, Jung. ;\)
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#111337 - 01/27/17 11:33 AM Re: Fuck Peter Carroll [Re: SIN3]
samowens84 Offline
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Registered: 09/29/16
Posts: 513
 Originally Posted By: SIN3
 Quote:
Just wanted to make one more observation. It's obvious that the limitations of language or, perhaps, poor communication, can lend itself to projecting yourself onto a neutral text. For example, I say "confessional" and assumptions are made that I can only be referring to the Catholic sacrament of confession,


No, you misunderstand. I was using that as a basis for unloading so-called truthful errs on your own behalf. The same is true with unloading on a friend or family member. People rarely tell the other party the whole story or the truth.

Say for instance, I'm a pedophile. I'm not exactly going to tell my Mother the whole story about my impulses yanno? There's still a self-shame aspect there because of outside judgment. That's why I closed with "My point is...."

I hope that clarifies. Written medium is like a rabbit hole sometimes.




Fair enough. My point isn't whether someone fully discloses or not, but in my experience that self-shame that you refer to implies that they are engaging in self deception, and in my experience are hoping to pretend that an "outsider" rubberstamp will lend some kind of ""objectivity" to their bullshit. What this means, regardless of whether they are fully disclosing or not, is that they are vulnerable to outside influence. I've had people coming to me hoping to get me to cosign on their bullshit, and I've noticed that I could push them either way, depending on what I wanted. That's what I mean when I say this is one way to "hand the reigns" so to speak from your personal sovereignty. Of course this is not always the case. Sometimes people aren't open to being pushed, and that happens I've noticed when people want to justify a compulsion like gambling or drug addiction. However, even then they are vulnerable, as I might gain their trust by pretending to cosign on their brown dotted line, while harboring some other agenda. For example, I might pretend to know some drug connection, lure them into the car, and instead drive them to rehab, or I could just simply rip them off. Or if one wants to really have fun with it the aim doesn't have to be so direct. For example, if you cosign on their bullshit they might be inclined to give you favors that might not be directly related. It's a nuanced and situational scenario, which I don't pretend is absolute, but I've found it to be true a significant enough times as to be worthy of note. I have had fun though. The possibilities for lesser magic when engaged with such a person are really only limited by the imagination


Edited by samowens84 (01/27/17 12:00 PM)

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#111367 - 01/30/17 05:14 PM Re: Fuck Peter Carroll [Re: samowens84]
SIN3 Offline
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Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 7190
Loc: Virginia
 Originally Posted By: samowens84

Fair enough. My point isn't whether someone fully discloses or not, but in my experience that self-shame that you refer to implies that they are engaging in self deception, and in my experience are hoping to pretend that an "outsider" rubberstamp will lend some kind of ""objectivity" to their bullshit.


And my counter to that is, that person may be a player in a larger game. While I do agree that self-deception is a trap, it really depends on the individual or situation. Do you dismiss the usefulness of a fake-it till you make-it mentality? A lot of Esoteric thought is purposeful deception. Deception isn't all bad, nor an Evil. It just requires context. It's no so much that I'm opposing your points for that sake alone, I'm just wondering if you've considered others in your conclusions.

 Quote:
What this means, regardless of whether they are fully disclosing or not, is that they are vulnerable to outside influence. I've had people coming to me hoping to get me to cosign on their bullshit, and I've noticed that I could push them either way, depending on what I wanted.


Seems to me your personal experiences have shaped your viewpoints like a mound of mud, I'm wondering when you intend to move the stick in it.

 Quote:
That's what I mean when I say this is one way to "hand the reigns" so to speak from your personal sovereignty. Of course this is not always the case. Sometimes people aren't open to being pushed,


You don't say? ;\)

 Quote:
and that happens I've noticed when people want to justify a compulsion like gambling or drug addiction.
Justifications play their role as well as discernment from reasons. Take old Crowe as an example. He claimed to be dabbling in Heroine use as it pertains to making self-discovery. The addiction may or may not have been a byproduct of that, or a justification for it. Either way, he still managed to hit his goal. What power did he hand off in that regard? How could we prove it either way?


 Quote:
However, even then they are vulnerable, as I might gain their trust by pretending to cosign on their brown dotted line, while harboring some other agenda. For example, I might pretend to know some drug connection, lure them into the car, and instead drive them to rehab, or I could just simply rip them off. Or if one wants to really have fun with it the aim doesn't have to be so direct.
I'm wondering why you care at all whether this person is addicted to drugs to take any action.

 Quote:
For example, if you cosign on their bullshit they might be inclined to give you favors that might not be directly related. It's a nuanced and situational scenario, which I don't pretend is absolute, but I've found it to be true a significant enough times as to be worthy of note. I have had fun though. The possibilities for lesser magic when engaged with such a person are really only limited by the imagination


I suppose so, if you rely on others with such consistency that a system developed is required. We can lend an ear to bullshit or not, even that is a choice. If you've entertained it, do you resent your own decision or is this just retaliation for the intent? In either case, this seems to be an issue of morals and handing your power off to those you entertain.

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#111369 - 01/30/17 06:38 PM Re: Fuck Peter Carroll [Re: SIN3]
samowens84 Offline
member


Registered: 09/29/16
Posts: 513
 Originally Posted By: SIN3
 Originally Posted By: samowens84

Fair enough. My point isn't whether someone fully discloses or not, but in my experience that self-shame that you refer to implies that they are engaging in self deception, and in my experience are hoping to pretend that an "outsider" rubberstamp will lend some kind of ""objectivity" to their bullshit.


And my counter to that is, that person may be a player in a larger game. While I do agree that self-deception is a trap, it really depends on the individual or situation. Do you dismiss the usefulness of a fake-it till you make-it mentality? A lot of Esoteric thought is purposeful deception. Deception isn't all bad, nor an Evil. It just requires context. It's no so much that I'm opposing your points for that sake alone, I'm just wondering if you've considered others in your conclusions.




I agree that there are exceptions to every rule; however, that does not exclude me from making general observations to make a point. However in my personal habit I prefer to honor the exception at the expense of the rule, as you seem to as well. However, you seem to have ignored some points that I've made on the subtler issues. Honestly, I don't see us disagreeing so much as spinning our wheels and talking past each other. However, no, I wouldn't discount those things, except that the constant is that one is accepting their state of mind and working with it, which isn't so much self-deception as creating a reality through imaginative will. The measure of that would be the real world results. The question would be who is reaping the benefit of deception. Like if you've been "faking" it till you make it for years then it might be time to reevaluate, or not. If you feel I might be telling you what you should do, that's a misunderstanding. You do what works for you, and only you can decide whether it works for you, which is really the point I've been trying to make. That self-appraisal and acceptance or action with discipline has the potential to being more reliably made by the individual, rather than the outsider.

You (rightly) challenge me on whether I have the right to tell people whether they're doing it wrong. However, as you imply, it's their responsibility to decide what works for them or not, which is not different from the emotional separation from others that I was referring to.

" I'm wondering why you care at all whether this person is addicted to drugs to take any action."

I don't. In fact I enjoy not caring whether someone is hurting themselves. Let them die, it's on them. I was merely highlighting a vulnerability, which you seem to think is the same as advocating. I also said I could rip them off, so, which do you think I would do? I'll let you project whatever you want. What you think is what you think, and I am what I am.


"I suppose so, if you rely on others with such consistency that a system developed is required. We can lend an ear to bullshit or not, even that is a choice. If you've entertained it, do you resent your own decision or is this just retaliation for the intent? In either case, this seems to be an issue of morals and handing your power off to those you entertain."

Morals, no. The point I was trying to make, which you seem to agree with, is that I would prefer to take responsibility and trust my own perspective above others when it comes to the subject of self, cause if I'm not in control, then someone else is. This is not a remarkable insight, I'm just enthusiastic for what I've discovered in its practical application. My emotional point of view is as the eye of a hurricane. All may be chaos but I am calm at the center, because I'm fully cognizant of my goals and boundaries, or where I stop, and other people begin.

Bottom line I suppose is that all your examples are all fine and good, except it might be more prudent to have a conversation with oneself, before having a conversation with others. It's a question of wisdom, or living life skillfully, not a question of morality.

Anyway, I do appreciate you taking the time to have a conversation with me. My point of view does not preclude me from learning from others. Which I suppose proves your point as well.


Edited by samowens84 (01/30/17 07:14 PM)

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#111371 - 01/30/17 08:56 PM Re: Fuck Peter Carroll [Re: CanisMachina42]
edgy Offline
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Registered: 09/28/16
Posts: 12
 Originally Posted By: CanisMachina42
 Quote:


Fucking this. Satanism is a personality type.

If ones code of honor has a strong defiant response when will is imposed upon, any reward system is nullified and any punishment is laughed at. To "play their system" and achieve reward leaves a foul bitter taste of personal dishonor tainting the reward anyway. Even if it brings negative results it's still a victory in independence.

Choosing disembowelment over a quick decapitation just to spit on their purple robe once more.


It's more like kicking them in the shin the moment before they swing the axe, stealing off with it and half the castle's treasure.

Someone came to me, lied to me, stole all my stuff, beat me brutally, lied about me to everyone else, took me to the very point of death, and then made very sure that they knew what all of my dreams were, and crushed them, and made sure they knew what brought me pleasure, and took it from me in the most obscene and humiliating ways possible, ensuring that I have no option to go back to sleep again, no option to ever really be happy.

If they had just said, "Hey, I have a great degree of influence around here, and if you don't want trouble with me, there are a few rules."

It's not about putting automony above well-being in all circumstances, but you also have to define "well-being", and if someone offers you a choice between (a) never ever being happy or fulfilled as well as being tortured and humiliated constantly, or (b) death, then what incentive is there for such a person to obey the oppressor's laws?

I never asked for much. If I had been allowed what very, very, very little I needed to be happy, I wouldn't bother with them. But not only did they go out of their way to take things from me, but they made absolutely certain that I could never ever experience happiness even if I went along with them, so... what's the point? Why SHOULDN'T I dedicate all of my conscious focus towards revenge and undermining their system, when I need very little no to be happy, they took it from me, and they bully me with it and appear to have no intention of ever giving it back? Even when you say, "Hey, I'd rather just get on with me life, can you please leave me alone and just give me my stuff back and fix what you did to my life? I just wants things to get better," and they spit in my face again?

And then goes on lecturing others about "degeneration", when they are the very embodiment of the sort of needlessly sadistic authoritarian corruption that causes people to revolt and precipitates corruption on all levels of society to begin with?

It's a personality trait, perhaps, but one that manifests in the face of having NO OTHER OPTION. I will not respect something that takes everything I ever cared about for its own amusement, even when it doesn't NEED to take, even when I'm not doing anybody any harm by having what I want, and when it wont' even allow me to just go be happy.

 Originally Posted By: SIN3
Liberation from what specifically? If you're already living in accordance to your own will, on your own terms and have moved beyond the rebellion of adolescence - what are you actually fighting?

This is why, at this stage, I merely point to ideas one is willing to consider. It's all a war of words and ideas for the most part.

Societal Responsibility? Give me a break, let them eat cake.


Liberation from complete and total unhappiness. A chance at liberty and freedom, when it's something you've never tasted before.

The war is a lot more tangible than that.

 Originally Posted By: Megatron
 Originally Posted By: not_edgy
{[T]he point of meditation is to encourage certain effects, and if you always have in the background of your consciousness something like, "Hey, this isn't REALLY magick. This is just the mind playing tricks on itself," you've introduced an extra layer of separation between yourself and your consciousness that really doesn't need to be there.


Utter futility.

/one-liner

You're a bit wordy, dude. Have you ever thought about writing a book? There's bound to be an audience somewhere, no matter how small . . .


I'll consider those things when my basic needs are fulfilled.


Edited by edgy (01/30/17 08:56 PM)

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#111372 - 01/30/17 11:52 PM Re: Fuck Peter Carroll [Re: edgy]
CanisMachina42 Offline
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Registered: 08/10/13
Posts: 1441
Loc: Ca
Interesting, seems common 'round these parts actually..

I'm not quite there yet, though.

 Quote:
Someone came to me, lied to me, stole all my stuff, beat me brutally, lied about me to everyone else, took me to the very point of death, and then made very sure that they knew what all of my dreams were, and crushed them, and made sure they knew what brought me pleasure, and took it from me in the most obscene and humiliating ways possible, ensuring that I have no option to go back to sleep again, no option to ever really be happy.


I'm still at an impasse with my "adversary". This person can't even get me to go along with them in the first place so it's just taunting and baiting currently. It hasn't really gone anywhere. Not that our situations are similar.

 Quote:
Hey, I have a great degree of influence around here, and if you don't want trouble with me, there are a few rules."


See, I want their trouble, don't give two fucks about their rules, and know their reach, but I can't get them off their lazy fucking asses to "play their hand" despite my best efforts. I haven't even got my ass kicked like promised.

So allow me to use my response to you to bait these fuckers one last time because I would welcome a situation like yours for its conclusive nature.

Starting to think the bitch is all talk and wondering what I'm doing wrong. I've tried one thing and I'm all out of ideas

If this makes no sense, disregard.

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#111374 - 01/31/17 05:53 PM Re: Fuck Peter Carroll [Re: samowens84]
SIN3 Offline
stalker


Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 7190
Loc: Virginia
It's not so much a matter of "Rights". We all cast judgments, whether that be the actions of others (even if only from an analytical stance) or our own. Emotional separation implies that it's required. Say for example, a rather close friend is telling me they believe I'm making an error in judgment. I can disagree and have no need for emotional separation from that friend (or judgment for that matter).

 Quote:
Like if you've been "faking" it till you make it for years then it might be time to reevaluate, or not. If you feel I might be telling you what you should do, that's a misunderstanding. You do what works for you, and only you can decide whether it works for you, which is really the point I've been trying to make. That self-appraisal and acceptance or action with discipline has the potential to being more reliably made by the individual, rather than the outsider.


Not at all. I'm speaking of the time it takes one to reach a level. As you stated, maybe it takes years... Some things take longer than others to learn. A person can hear outside judgment and opinion all day and still not consider it advice. That should be rather evident by a refusal to adopt it.

 Quote:
cause if I'm not in control, then someone else is.


Determinism is like that and you may never pinpoint cause, or even be aware of it in all cases. Outward conflict is an aid in that regard. I think only the really truthful stuff makes a lasting impression.

Individually, people create their own moral codes. Whether you believe it's a moral ethic or not, is irrelevant.

 Quote:
Which I suppose proves your point as well.


Conversational discourse IS a path to self discovery.
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#111375 - 01/31/17 05:58 PM Re: Fuck Peter Carroll [Re: edgy]
SIN3 Offline
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Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 7190
Loc: Virginia
 Originally Posted By: edgy
Liberation from complete and total unhappiness. A chance at liberty and freedom, when it's something you've never tasted before.


Do you believe everyone to be powerless and miserable, or were you speaking on an personal pursuit?

I am neither Unhappy nor Restricted.
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#111377 - 02/02/17 05:05 AM Re: Fuck Peter Carroll [Re: SIN3]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3344
[Quick reply]
To repeat is to learn. What Caroll and others write about is nothing new. Different folks with differents strokes. One might like how another brings the subject to the table whereas another one loathes his/her manner of speech.

Some kids learn languages through Dora the explorer. Other kids find it more easy to follow a text book.

As such I see a bit of whining about "liberation" and freedom.
Liberation of what? There's no need for liberation of "something" when it isn't within your best interest nor if it isn't perceived as a burden. Although, sometimes yanking the chains can be a good sport. If only to see how the perception is received.
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#111977 - 03/23/17 12:56 PM Re: Fuck Peter Carroll [Re: Dimitri]
edgy Offline
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Registered: 09/28/16
Posts: 12
As far as the book goes:

I got to the end of it, and it did go into depth more than I'd expected, but I still ultimately reject it, because I feel like it's designed to hook people into a wild goose chase, duping them into learning useless shit like quantum physics and general relativity and all the math that goes along with that, only to tie it into a worldview that's astrally restrictive while being presented as liberating.

I feel like this book was designed for intelligent people who need a little bit more than what they might get from, say, A Course in Miracles, but still contains enough misleading information to cripple their development. It probably doesn't lead anywhere useful.

And I hate that he called it the Apophenion, when Apophis is the God of emptiness and formless chaos, while the book is entirely about structure and form.

Apophis is supposed to be the Form Destroyer, the force that eats away at the universe's structure, not the time dimensions that structure reality, what the Gnostics called the false spiritual world.

As far as my above post goes:

Okay, okay.

I just needa calm down a little. All the gaslighting has induced a state of psychosis to some degree, so I apologize for the spergout.

I'm gonna find a way out of my situation and increase my personal power. This is the only thing that can be done.

My position is bad, but I can do this. But I need to fix the psychological imbalances that recent events have caused.

My biggest enemy is my own lack of faith in myself. The odds are bad, but not insurmountable; everything I need is right here, within my reach.


Edited by edgy (03/23/17 01:02 PM)

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#111984 - 03/24/17 11:26 AM Re: Fuck Peter Carroll [Re: edgy]
SIN3 Offline
stalker


Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 7190
Loc: Virginia
 Originally Posted By: edgy
I'm gonna find a way out of my situation and increase my personal power. This is the only thing that can be done.


Now you're cooking with gasoline. It's pretty easy to criticize the works of others, when you have done no work yourself eh?


 Quote:
My position is bad, but I can do this. But I need to fix the psychological imbalances that recent events have caused.


When it comes to concepts of mind, 'balance' is the illusion. Start with your perception.
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#111998 - 03/25/17 10:14 AM Re: Fuck Peter Carroll [Re: edgy]
Megatron Offline
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Registered: 08/22/14
Posts: 859
Loc: fuckit, some kid cracked my co...
Sorry, Opie, I can't do that. He's just an awesome football coach. BTW, he goes by Pete, not Peter. Your bad. And he's won championships on multiple levels, so suck it.
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#112650 - 05/01/17 03:40 AM Re: Fuck Peter Carroll [Re: Megatron]
aerial_dc Offline
pledge


Registered: 10/01/12
Posts: 82
I like Liber Null. I read it at a younger age and it definitely had an effect. The way Chaos Magic is described and the examples given have been useful for me. I would like it more if the IOT was mentioned less. Still, I like the flow, writing style, and descriptions. Even for someone who's not into Magic I feel like the chaotic book would be entertaining.

I've never read any of Carroll's other books. Reading the descriptions, it always seemed like he was trying to describe a constructed system for his group. As you said Edgy, his book "Apophenion" is more about structure and form. Are any of his other books like Liber Null? Are ANY books like it? I couldn't get into Austin Spare or Phil Hine, not that I checked everything out.
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