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#111667 - 03/08/17 04:48 PM Another one of my Idols . . .
Oxus Offline
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Or at least some of the dipshits here would like to think that, in any case Don's interview is pretty cool IMO and hits on the widely debated topic of RHP LHP and Western LHP concepts.


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#111668 - 03/08/17 04:54 PM Re: Another one of my Idols . . . [Re: Oxus]
Dan_Dread Offline
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LOL

"Western LHP concepts"

Carry on.
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#111670 - 03/08/17 05:23 PM Re: Another one of my Idols . . . [Re: Dan_Dread]
Oxus Offline
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I've been 'carrying on' about the differences between Eastern LHP and Western LHP for a while now. If you have an intelligent rebuttal I'd like to hear it.
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#111671 - 03/08/17 05:25 PM Re: Another one of my Idols . . . [Re: Oxus]
2ndHandSatanist Offline
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You're quite funny the way you talk. You seem like you're interested in one thing only: making sense of ideas.

I like that.

I like that a lot.

Let's see... what was there to talk about? There was something very important for you to know....
You need to know that I was all over the idea of you telling me more about this book.

What was this book? Was this book a good book? Was it a critical thought book?

Was this book about me? XD
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#111672 - 03/08/17 05:54 PM Re: Another one of my Idols . . . [Re: 2ndHandSatanist]
CanisMachina42 Offline
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So after the lobotomy did they let you keep the piece of brain they cut out? Did you put it in a jar and name it?

This seems a bit of a departure, but I get it's a creative (destructive?) process.

Don't mind me, I'm just trying to make sense of this...

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#111677 - 03/09/17 04:43 AM Re: Another one of my Idols . . . [Re: Oxus]
Dimitri Offline
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There's a difference between Eastern and Western LHP.
The Western LHP prides itself with self-titled "masters" and hundreds of books filled with opinions.

Joking and poking aside.
The difference has to do with culture. Different strokes, different folks. You can't expect a LHP practitioner who has been raised with Buddhism to hold the same mindset and practices as one raised with Christianity.
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#111680 - 03/09/17 06:57 AM Re: Another one of my Idols . . . [Re: Dimitri]
Oxus Offline
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The real significant difference is the ELHP is based on heterodoxy and ultimately is still a RHP goal towards absolving into something else, e.g. God, universe, the One etc. While the WLHP works off of Antinomianism and autotheism.
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#111681 - 03/09/17 07:04 AM Re: Another one of my Idols . . . [Re: Oxus]
Megatron Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Oxus
I've been 'carrying on' about the differences between Eastern LHP and Western LHP for a while now. If you have an intelligent rebuttal I'd like to hear it.


I agree with you on this. Well maybe. Would you say it's a difference of degree, or of kind? Or maybe some third option?

Would you hold that LHP and RHP have the same ultimate goal in mind, or are they seeking different fruit entirely? Or again, maybe some third option?

Don't assume that people are familiar with your "work," as it were. Feel free to say what you mean in a different context, or perhaps provide links if applicable. Did I spell all that right?


Edited by Megatron (03/09/17 07:06 AM)
Edit Reason: note: I posted this prior to reading the directly preceding post as both of us were composing at the same time.
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#111682 - 03/09/17 08:53 AM Re: Another one of my Idols . . . [Re: Megatron]
Dan_Dread Offline
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I'm perfectly familiar with his 'western' LHP thing.

It is basically him enjoying the term LHP while lacking the capacity to grasp what it means.

The whole concept as he presents it is incoherent
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#111683 - 03/09/17 09:47 AM Re: Another one of my Idols . . . [Re: Dan_Dread]
Megatron Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread
It is basically him enjoying the term LHP while lacking the capacity to grasp what it means.


That actually raises an interesting point/question: what DOES it mean? Did I get all two lines in there? My apologies if not. I always strive for the high bar. LOL, the WEED bar.

I lost track, are we still doing labels?
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#111684 - 03/09/17 09:57 AM Re: Another one of my Idols . . . [Re: Megatron]
Dan_Dread Offline
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What does it mean? Who cares. I now declare the existence of the 'northern left hand path' (nlhp). It means you eat cheeseburgers every second Friday.
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#111685 - 03/09/17 10:07 AM Re: Another one of my Idols . . . [Re: Dan_Dread]
Megatron Offline
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That's awesome. I always wanted to see this matchup:




VS




My vote is for the Hamburglar. Does that make me LHP? NLP? HRQ? ME?


Edited by Megatron (03/09/17 10:13 AM)
Edit Reason: just joking, I have plenty of weed. Don't tell the cops, though. I'd probably get in trouble . . .
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#111686 - 03/09/17 10:32 AM Re: Another one of my Idols . . . [Re: Megatron]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Really dude? Hamburglar is a poser that only steals other people's material, while Wimpy reliably pays back his loans every Tuesday, which is an obvious nlhp virtue.

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#111687 - 03/09/17 10:51 AM Re: Another one of my Idols . . . [Re: Oxus]
SIN3 Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Ox
ELHP is based on heterodoxy and ultimately is still a RHP goal towards absolving into something else, e.g. God, universe, the One etc.


Or could it be that people in the East much like the West refuse to participate and comply with what is Orthopraxy?

Not because they have to be pardoned from a god, the universe or even their fellow man but because the practice from the get-go doesn't make much sense.

Would a Hindu eating meat when told not to be different from a young child refusing to attend church because it's expected of him?

By all means, continue to Pontificate on the matter.
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#111689 - 03/09/17 11:03 AM Re: Another one of my Idols . . . [Re: Dan_Dread]
Megatron Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread
Really dude? Hamburglar is a poser that only steals other people's material, while Wimpy reliably pays back his loans every Tuesday, which is an obvious nlhp virtue.



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#111694 - 03/09/17 07:07 PM Re: Another one of my Idols . . . [Re: SIN3]
Oxus Offline
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I read about orthopraxy but maybe you should explain it in simple terms so I can wrap my brain around your point
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#111715 - 03/10/17 04:16 PM Re: Another one of my Idols . . . [Re: Oxus]
SIN3 Offline
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Here, let's try this for shits and giggles:

 Originally Posted By: Ox
The real significant difference is the ELHP is based on heterodoxy and ultimately is still a RHP goal towards absolving into something else, e.g. God, universe, the One etc. While the WLHP works off of Antinomianism and autotheism.



Take your average (Catholic) family, say Mom, Dad and 1 out of two kids, do the thing (go to church, observe religious holy days, try to live by that doctrine, etc.) kid#2 refuses to go to church, do any of that shit and trips over god in the woods. They have come to believe in it through Orthodox practices, where as he comes to understand what god is differently. Things would be a lot easier for him if he just falls in line and to stop actively engaging in this conflict with his family.

Maybe that kid still holds concepts of what god is and does but decides that it's none of the things described by the Catholic church, including how one comes to believe in it and hold faith in it (he's always been skeptical). This kid reads pretty much everything he can get his hand on that describes why some things are taboo and he delves into all of them to see where he stands (really). His family tells him he's going to hell, he's a sinner and he'd better find Christ or he's going to burn for all eternity. He gives a big FUCK YOU to their demands, rhetoric and emotional extortion tactics.

Please describe how this is not achieving the god head and being antinomian?

What Right-handed goal has he achieved?
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#111721 - 03/10/17 05:09 PM Re: Another one of my Idols . . . [Re: SIN3]
Dan_Dread Offline
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You're wasting your time, S.

I've tried explaining this to him and those other weiners from the LHP section of religious forums more than once. That is where this WLHP silliness began; a few liberal mushies didn't like that LHP could be ugly sometimes, and that a few of their gurus weren't technically LHP thinkers, so they invented their own fairy princess version and slapped the word 'western' onto it.

It wouldn't be so bad if it was a clearly defined coherent thing unto itself, but it just isn't. What it is is a 'safe space' for wannabes.

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#111723 - 03/10/17 05:21 PM Re: Another one of my Idols . . . [Re: SIN3]
Kori Houghton Offline
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In your hypothetical Catholic family, even the kid who accepts the doctrine and follows it throughout life isn't aiming for "a RHP goal towards absolving into something else, e.g. God, universe, the One etc." (quoting Oxus here) Part of the doctrine is a belief in the resurrection of the body, to be reunited with the "soul" for eternity. I admit it's been half a century since I had to sit through daily indoctrination in the form of "religion class" in a Catholic primary school, but I recall the belief as being about you, as an individual in all aspects.


 Originally Posted By: SIN3
He gives a big FUCK YOU to their demands, rhetoric and emotional extortion tactics.

Please describe how this is not achieving the god head and being antinomian?

What Right-handed goal has he achieved?


Good questions! I am wondering how a kid born into a Setiologist family does the Antinomianism bit?
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#111726 - 03/10/17 06:28 PM Re: Another one of my Idols . . . [Re: SIN3]
Oxus Offline
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One of the most common misapprehensions about antinomianism is that it causes (or is synonymous with) libertinism - doing `whatever you want' regardless of other peoples' values or lives. Luckily Nietzsche settled this point once and for all for everyone, no matter what their sect or belief: 'beyond good and evil' means nothing without that 'self-overcoming' or 'sublimation' which utterly rules out the banality of a pointless and self-defeating 'evil'. The antinomian may commit crimes in the eyes of society or the Law, but only out of a personal ethics which reaches unimaginably higher than any moral code. Antinomian ethics does this precisely because it is Imaginal, 'made up' by the individual, personal and central.

Simply stated; Kid #2 is rebelling against a religion indoctrinated into his brain, this means Kid #2 has accepted said religion as real and something that must be eradicated from his mind . . . heterodoxy.

Let's say there is a Kid #3 and what she does is pure WLHP Antinomianism in that she has deduced that mom and dad's religion does not exist, is an aberration of their delusional minds and therefore has no reason to rebel against it.

Kid #3's Adversary, unlike Kid#2, is Herself and what makes her less of a goddess (aka further from her higher Self).

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#111727 - 03/10/17 06:29 PM Re: Another one of my Idols . . . [Re: Dan_Dread]
Oxus Offline
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According to you Vamachara is the same as Satanism . . . it is?
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#111738 - 03/11/17 01:26 PM Re: Another one of my Idols . . . [Re: Oxus]
Megatron Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Oxus
According to you Vamachara is the same as Satanism . . . it is?


I'll bite.

No.

Satisfied?

The only question is, who said it was?


Edited by Megatron (03/11/17 01:28 PM)
Edit Reason: it's my thing
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#111740 - 03/11/17 08:58 PM Re: Another one of my Idols . . . [Re: Oxus]
Dan_Dread Offline
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According to me?

Umm..What?
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#111757 - 03/13/17 11:22 AM Re: Another one of my Idols . . . [Re: Oxus]
SIN3 Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Oxus
One of the most common misapprehensions about antinomianism is that it causes (or is synonymous with) libertinism - doing `whatever you want' regardless of other peoples' values or lives.


What does this have to do with the hypothetical situation I provided for you to address?

I think you've confused Libertarianism with the Libertines.

 Quote:
Luckily Nietzsche settled this point once and for all for everyone, no matter what their sect or belief: 'beyond good and evil' means nothing without that 'self-overcoming' or 'sublimation' which utterly rules out the banality of a pointless and self-defeating 'evil'. The antinomian may commit crimes in the eyes of society or the Law, but only out of a personal ethics which reaches unimaginably higher than any moral code.


Did he? I don't think you understand Philosophy.

 Quote:
Antinomian ethics does this precisely because it is Imaginal, 'made up' by the individual, personal and central.


Made up in contrast to Nomian values and practices. People don't just pull these things out of their asses for no good reason.


 Quote:

Simply stated; Kid #2 is rebelling against a religion indoctrinated into his brain, this means Kid #2 has accepted said religion as real and something that must be eradicated from his mind . . . heterodoxy.


Please quote the text where I have stated that (1) He is rebelling against a religion, (2) he accepted religion and (3) was indoctrinated.

 Quote:
Let's say there is a Kid #3 and what she does is pure WLHP Antinomianism in that she has deduced that mom and dad's religion does not exist, is an aberration of their delusional minds and therefore has no reason to rebel against it.

Kid #3's Adversary, unlike Kid#2, is Herself and what makes her less of a goddess (aka further from her higher Self).


Baby steps Ox, you're comprehension and cognition needs a lot of work.
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#111760 - 03/13/17 12:23 PM Re: Another one of my Idols . . . [Re: SIN3]
Oxus Offline
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It has everything to do with the fact that yourself and others misunderstand the differences between heterodoxy, and Antinomianism . Which is what defines eastern and western LHP's.
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#111763 - 03/13/17 04:59 PM Re: Another one of my Idols . . . [Re: Oxus]
SIN3 Offline
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By all means, demonstrate my misunderstandings. Otherwise, these are just excuses and a flat refusal to demonstrate your own understanding. Words mean things, they also require context to mediate understanding.

The boy in my example, isn't just a non-conformist. He isn't just refusing to go to Church, he's doing a whole lot more there. Whether that boy stands in the East or West while doing it, makes no difference.
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#111770 - 03/14/17 08:43 AM Re: Another one of my Idols . . . [Re: Oxus]
Dan_Dread Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Oxus
It has everything to do with the fact that yourself and others misunderstand the differences between heterodoxy, and Antinomianism . Which is what defines eastern and western LHP's.


Man, you're a hoot. Ok then, why don't you explain the difference vis a vis your safe and harmless version of LHP.

I expect you'll dodge this one but let's find out.
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#111771 - 03/14/17 10:42 AM Re: Another one of my Idols . . . [Re: Oxus]
Megatron Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Oxus
The differences between heterodoxy and antinomianism . Which is what defines eastern and western LHP's.


Heterodoxy: Opposite belief. From the Greek. As directly opposed to Orthodoxy, or correct belief.

Antinomian: Against the law. Also from the Greek. As directly opposed to Nomos, or Law.

Funny, I don't see much difference here. Do you?
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#111772 - 03/14/17 11:10 AM Re: Another one of my Idols . . . [Re: Megatron]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Cmon J. Why you gotta nail the coffin lid shut while I'm watching the cadaver squirm?
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#111774 - 03/14/17 11:37 AM Re: Another one of my Idols . . . [Re: Dan_Dread]
SIN3 Offline
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Yeah, what a party-pooper. Killing our good time.

And Dan, there's no such thing as wasted time. It all gets spent one way or another. \:\)
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#111779 - 03/14/17 12:00 PM Re: Another one of my Idols . . . [Re: SIN3]
Oxus Offline
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Though I've explained this numerous times before, here goes;

Heterodoxy in a religious sense means "any opinions or doctrines at variance with an official or orthodox position". Under this definition, heterodoxy is similar to unorthodoxy, while the adjective "heterodox" could be applied to a dissident.

In contemporary studies of western esotericism, antinomianism is regarded as "a central ingredient in Left-Hand Path spiritualities," and understood as "nonconformity through the concept of transgression". This extends the modern usage of the term, from simply implying that "moral laws are relative in meaning and application", to include the avowed irreligion manifest in modern Satanism.

Worth a read;
http://www.webstonne.com/LHP.html

In heterodoxy the adversary seems to be the orthodox religious beliefs one has been indoctrinated into while Antinomianism the adversary is the self.


Edited by Oxus (03/14/17 12:04 PM)

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#111780 - 03/14/17 12:32 PM Re: Another one of my Idols . . . [Re: Oxus]
Dan_Dread Offline
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You really don't see how arbitrary that is do you? There is no distinction there.

"Nonconformity through the concept of transgression"? I guess the Aghori are "Western" LHP and the very law abiding citizens of the CoS and TOS aren't LHP at all.

Well done \:\)
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#111781 - 03/14/17 01:20 PM Re: Another one of my Idols . . . [Re: Dan_Dread]
Oxus Offline
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I don't know if you're just thick headed or are simply busting my balls?
Vamachara aghori would be obviously heterodox and the ToS antinomian.

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#111782 - 03/14/17 01:25 PM Re: Another one of my Idols . . . [Re: Oxus]
Dan_Dread Offline
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...

So you are saying that the Aghori don't engage in "Nonconformity through the concept of transgression" and the TOS does?

Alrighty then.
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#111783 - 03/14/17 01:33 PM Re: Another one of my Idols . . . [Re: Dan_Dread]
Oxus Offline
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Is that what I'm saying? Wow . . .
All I am and have ever tried to convey is that the term LHP is a weak term for either the Luciferian, Setian, or Satanist. It is so because both orthodox and heterodox eastern paths are fundamentally RHP's. In my opinion a better term is Western LHP.


Edited by Oxus (03/14/17 01:43 PM)

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#111784 - 03/14/17 04:10 PM Re: Another one of my Idols . . . [Re: Oxus]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Hopeless...

Yes, SIN, time can be wasted.
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#111786 - 03/14/17 05:15 PM Re: Another one of my Idols . . . [Re: Oxus]
CanisMachina42 Offline
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Can I play?

Call it the "Satanic Action Test"

1. You are offered a position of privilege provided you adhere a set of standards you don't agree with to complete the work described.

Do you:

A. Rationalize it as: "I am getting ahead so that serves my interests. My standards can be compromised."

B. Say you'll do it and just do what ever you want. Play their system to your advantage.

C. Get twisted in a way that overrides all other responses because what they've asked is unnecessary and pisses you off so much your "reward response" is negated. Be sure to include a "go fuck yourself".

D. Try to negotiate your position using LBM and come to a compromise.
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#111787 - 03/14/17 06:06 PM Re: Another one of my Idols . . . [Re: Oxus]
SIN3 Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Oxus
Though I've explained this numerous times before, here goes;

Heterodoxy in a religious sense


What gives you the impression a religious sense is required?

 Quote:
conforming to established doctrine


 Quote:
especially in religion orthodox principles the orthodox interpretation


Especially is not synonymous with Explicitly.

I'll use an example from my family background for a different context:

Example: In Italian (even those immigrated) families it's traditional according to both age and position in the family to cook specific dishes for a family dinner (typically Sundays). If the Mother/Father is still alive, He/she does the main course, and his/her children in order of age/position the side dishes, bread, dessert etc. Maybe one of their children says fuck that, and doesn't cook. Maybe they don't even show up. Or maybe, they show up with the Main course and monkey wrench this Orthodox Practice. Which is basically a familial pecking order. Cultural notions are impressed upon the next generation in the home, even when not in your native country. In the U.S., your neighbor isn't going to call you out for bringing a dish you are not supposed to unless they too are part of this cultural tradition. Once you break the tradition, it causes conflict. Just because it causes conflict, doesn't mean you should avoid it. Some ideas and traditions should be broken, not just in your own tight-nit group (like a family) and can ripple through a society; which is a catalyst for changes. Rock n' Roll at one time was Satan's music, now look we have Christian Rock. NOMOS.



 Quote:
means "any opinions or doctrines at variance with an official or orthodox position". Under this definition, heterodoxy is similar to unorthodoxy, while the adjective "heterodox" could be applied to a dissident.


Ok, let's roll with your definition for the sake of this conversation. Describe in detail why being Heterodox/Unorthodox is in flux with being Anti-Nomos? You don't seem to think that there are a multitude of applications.


You:
1. If a person refuses to participate at all - that's Antinomian
2. If a person participates but in an unorthodox manner - that's Heterdoxy


Me:
1. If a person refuses to participate at all, it's Heterdox and Antinomian it only requires a full understanding why not conforming and parting with tradition can be synonymous.

It's not as if people stop eating dinner.


Whether East or West, it makes no difference. You are asserting that an Eastern practice differs from the Western, that may be true but only insofar as Westerners that have specific interpretations have misunderstood. It doesn't mean different things from East to West.
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#111790 - 03/14/17 11:17 PM Re: Another one of my Idols . . . [Re: SIN3]
Oxus Offline
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Then tell me what you think the end goal of an Aghori is and the end goal of say a non-theistic Luciferian?
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#111792 - 03/15/17 01:25 AM Re: Another one of my Idols . . . [Re: Oxus]
Megatron Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Oxus
say a non-theistic Luciferian?


No. YOU say it. Oh, wait, you just did.


Is that the most meaningless descriptor you could think of? Did Mabon (anyone remember that clown?) help you draw that up?

But seriously, Aristotle has your answer: every moral agent always acts towards a perceived "good."

Even when I'm stabbing you in the face, I mean well. Maybe not by YOUR standards of "well," but I don't share your perspective. I have my own, and face-stabbing you works in that scenario.

Now of course all that's a metaphor, and I hope you'll get it. The goal in either case is parallel in the way it satisfies the particular paradigm. Apples, oranges, you know the drill. Both grow on trees!


Edited by Megatron (03/15/17 01:28 AM)
Edit Reason: Hey Oxus, aren't you the clown that shrunk his balls up quite tight in PM when I pressed you on Tregs-Chod? Same guy, or do I have you confused?
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#111795 - 03/15/17 05:48 AM Re: Another one of my Idols . . . [Re: Oxus]
Zeno Offline
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When I read up on the Aghori I noted two things:

1. they provide a service to the community akin to a shaman.
2. they reject the concept of opposites prefering personal obliteration of ego into a concept of oneness with something.

Their end goal would be oneness with something, and from that oneness providing some service to their community such as healing.

The "non-theistic Luciferian" i.e. a Luciferian who is atheistic, acts for themselves, and their ego generally is protected and enhanced in the process they follow.

The end goal of this type of individual will be greater authenticity and personal progress as separate from external conformist influences.
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#111798 - 03/15/17 08:10 AM Re: Another one of my Idols . . . [Re: Zeno]
Oxus Offline
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Now, the Aghori practices vamachara which translates to the 'left hand path', do you find this Eastern LHP to be the same as the non-theistic Luciferian's? Not at all, in fact the Aghori is simply on the RHP using heterodoxy techniques.
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#111799 - 03/15/17 09:58 AM Re: Another one of my Idols . . . [Re: Oxus]
Dan_Dread Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Oxus
Now, the Aghori practices vamachara which translates to the 'left hand path', do you find this Eastern LHP to be the same as the non-theistic Luciferian's? Not at all, in fact the Aghori is simply on the RHP using heterodoxy techniques.


LOL.

OK, this guy has to be intentionally trolling. Nobody is this daft.

First you draw a completely meaningless distinction between antinomian and heterodox which mean basically the same thing, both terms applying to the LHP proper, then you define these words in such a way that both exclude the groups you wish to include and include the groups you wish to exclude...Then pretend you didn't.

Ok then. Ten troll points, we took the bait.

Now here you are, doubling down on your stupidity..Claiming the ones that invented a term to define themselves are actually using the words wrong.

"Vamachara means left hand path but it is actually right hand path. In other news up actually means down, and dry actually means wet"

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#111800 - 03/15/17 10:51 AM Re: Another one of my Idols . . . [Re: Oxus]
SIN3 Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Oxus
Then tell me what you think the end goal of an Aghori is and the end goal of say a non-theistic Luciferian?


I can only assume since you read Ford, that your interpretation may be similar to his own. Let me break it down like this:

Whether an Aghori Hindu is wearing a Deific Mask while standing in India or Indiana makes no difference.

Aghori are kept at a distance for a reason . What reason do you think that is?

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#111802 - 03/15/17 11:31 AM Re: Another one of my Idols . . . [Re: SIN3]
Oxus Offline
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I'm beginning to think both of you are in some form of cognitive denial or something. I'm wondering who's trolling who?
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#111803 - 03/15/17 11:40 AM Re: Another one of my Idols . . . [Re: Oxus]
SIN3 Offline
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Anytime you're ready to address my statements and questions. I'll be here.

For the archive's sake, each reader will form their own opinions. There's nothing you can do about that, aside to directly address the topic instead of escapist tactics.

Do you feel cornered Ox?
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#111804 - 03/15/17 11:49 AM Re: Another one of my Idols . . . [Re: Oxus]
Creatura Noptii Offline
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Ok.

I often encounter people discussing this need to eliminate their ego. Yet I observe the same people bragging about how they've cleansed their being of their 'egos' in the most egotistic ways to the ends of much desired social validation.

Take me for example. People don't relate to me well, nor I to them. I've been called childish, immature, uncaring, nuts, and I often am. I find value in holding on to childish notions that other people believe should be eliminated at some point.

So many have criticized me for behaving like a child, being too goofy or 'out of touch.'

I've also noted how these people dress, act, criticize and judge the same way while telling me what to do and how to act.

Concerning this other stuff:

Wouldn't common behaviour withing a group, be it anywhere in the world, be considered 'nomian?'

In other words, everything is nomian only until put to contrast. Light and dark. You need contrast to see the details.

What I find attractive about 'satanic praxies' and the overall perspective, is the ability to look before you leap. Scrutiny. Much needed in terms of personal refinement. I'm no prime example, but knowing so much is really all that's needed to start, no?

Labels don't matter much in the long run. I could just as well call it 'alienism,' or 'otherism.'

Carry on.
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#111808 - 03/15/17 02:00 PM Re: Another one of my Idols . . . [Re: Oxus]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Perhaps if you addressed the glaring incoherencies and contradictions that have already been pointed out to you repeatedly you would get farther.
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#111809 - 03/15/17 03:52 PM Re: Another one of my Idols . . . [Re: Creatura Noptii]
SIN3 Offline
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 Originally Posted By: CN
Wouldn't common behaviour withing a group, be it anywhere in the world, be considered 'nomian?'


YES

At 21, my son keeps asking me (in jest) when I'm going to be a "Mom" and "Settle Down". In other words, I'm so unconventional that it tends to give one a sense of 'other'.


 Quote:
Labels don't matter much in the long run.


The label isn't as important as understanding what's under it. Hence my challenge to Ox, to Splain it.

I mean, what an absurd way of conceptualizing it. He read a bunch of crap from people that misunderstand, and that somehow provides him with what he needs to change the essence under the form. Like jamming a square peg into a round hole.
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#111813 - 03/15/17 06:34 PM Re: Another one of my Idols . . . [Re: SIN3]
Oxus Offline
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You can cajole me all you want, it is not me who misunderstands these terms and their significance in today's existence.
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#111814 - 03/15/17 06:34 PM Re: Another one of my Idols . . . [Re: SIN3]
Creatura Noptii Offline
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 Quote:
In other words, I'm so unconventional that it tends to give one a sense of 'other'.


And most of the time these people don't even have a rounded idea of this 'other.' It is as you say, a sense, or 'essence.'

I've noticed something about this reaction. The first conclusion people normally jump to is 'crazy.'

He/She must be 'nuts.'

I get what you mean. Some time back I told a few friends that I wanted to try living alone, spend most of my time in solitude.

The first reaction was to ask me if I'd consider getting therapy. Mind you, I wasn't displaying any abnormal behaviour, yet, the idea that I just wanted to be alone got them thinking I must have been loosing my mind.
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#111815 - 03/15/17 07:56 PM Re: Another one of my Idols . . . [Re: Oxus]
Dan_Dread Offline
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So, in summary, you have no idea what you are talking about, and as such are unable to coherently describe your own position on the matter in a way that doesn't melt in the sunlight.

So, I'll just reitterate my opening rejoinder.

LOL

"Western LHP concepts"

Carry on.
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#111817 - 03/15/17 09:00 PM Re: Another one of my Idols . . . [Re: Dan_Dread]
Oxus Offline
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Having the last say, aside from being juvenile, does not in any way validate your confusion about these terms.
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#111821 - 03/15/17 11:39 PM Re: Another one of my Idols . . . [Re: Oxus]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Dude, I actually quoted your contradictions, definitions have been posted to you, obvious things pointed out to you, and you have addressed exactly none of it.

You can't just post jibberish, ignore all attempts at discussion and claim victory somehow.

This..This is why you have been around for years and learned nothing.
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#111825 - 03/16/17 06:14 AM Re: Another one of my Idols . . . [Re: Dan_Dread]
Oxus Offline
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If you understood what vamachara meant and what it is, we wouldn't need this useless conversation. In India, what they refer to as the LHP is not what we have come to refer to as the LHP. Hence why I use Western in front. Is Madman Blavatsky sitting on your head or something?
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#111826 - 03/16/17 08:39 AM Re: Another one of my Idols . . . [Re: Oxus]
Megatron Offline
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Registered: 08/22/14
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Loc: fuckit, some kid cracked my co...
 Originally Posted By: Oxus
If you understood what vamachara meant and what it is, we wouldn't need this useless conversation. In India, what they refer to as the LHP is not what we have come to refer to as the LHP. Hence why I use Western in front. Is Madman Blavatsky sitting on your head or something?


As Dan has pointed out, LHP is better understood as a method rather than a goal. That's why it's called a PATH, and not a destination. In that case, yes, these two things can be placed in the same category. But, you know, the problem with categories is that there's plenty enough to go around . . .


Edited by Megatron (03/16/17 08:47 AM)
Edit Reason: between Dimitri and Fakepropht, I dont feel safe playing cards around here. They have all the aces . . .
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#111827 - 03/16/17 08:52 AM Re: Another one of my Idols . . . [Re: Oxus]
Dan_Dread Offline
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LOL.

The definition for vamachara is already on the table here remember? Left hand path or more properly, left course. This word was coined thousands of years ago, and continued to mean the same thing until you came along and decided it would be more convenient to your fluffbunny metaphysics to define it as the opposite thing.

I'm all for creativity, especially as it pertains to digging out your own philosophy and even your own lexicon. Unfortunately, you have yet to provide any substance here beyond your hi-lar-i-ous attempt to separate the east from West with the words heterodox and antinomian..Which got reduced to dust by Jason, SIN, and myself.

You're a clown, straight up.
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#111828 - 03/16/17 09:03 AM Re: Another one of my Idols . . . [Re: Dan_Dread]
Oxus Offline
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I'll address all this in a couple of days, right now I'm without a computer and sick as a dog.
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#111829 - 03/16/17 09:47 AM Re: Another one of my Idols . . . [Re: Oxus]
Megatron Offline
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Registered: 08/22/14
Posts: 859
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 Originally Posted By: Oxus
right now I'm without a computer.


Really? What did you do, mail this in?

LOL, I look forward to your resurrection. Did I spell that right?

Be well.
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#111830 - 03/16/17 10:27 AM Re: Another one of my Idols . . . [Re: Megatron]
Oxus Offline
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No smart ass, I'm on my phone
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#111831 - 03/16/17 10:40 AM Re: Another one of my Idols . . . [Re: Oxus]
Megatron Offline
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Registered: 08/22/14
Posts: 859
Loc: fuckit, some kid cracked my co...
 Originally Posted By: Oxus
No smart ass, I'm on my phone


,winks to the crowd, 'watch this shit' ,

Dude. Really? Gluttonous for Punishments a lot?

A PHONE IS A FUCKING COMPUTER!



Edited by Megatron (03/16/17 10:41 AM)
Edit Reason: I edited this shit in your dreams and then came back to haunt you. I hope I spelled all that right.
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#111832 - 03/16/17 10:43 AM Re: Another one of my Idols . . . [Re: Creatura Noptii]
SIN3 Offline
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 Originally Posted By: CN
He/She must be 'nuts.'


Indeed. In truth, I'm really ok with that sort considering me out of my tree. Again, the label isn't as important as what's under it.

Imagine being just like them.

 Originally Posted By: Ox
If you understood what vamachara meant and what it is, we wouldn't need this useless conversation. In India, what they refer to as the LHP is not what we have come to refer to as the LHP.



Repetition doesn't make it fact Ox. It means the same thing in the West as it does the East. Really it does.

By 'we' I'm guessing you mean people of your ilk. You're right about that. You people have your own delusions of practice, I'm ok with that too. Your sort serve their purpose in Macrocosm. I love it when people explain 'Satanic and Luciferian Religion' in front of me to their peers. That stuff is useful as fuck.
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#111835 - 03/16/17 12:05 PM Re: Another one of my Idols . . . [Re: Megatron]
Oxus Offline
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That was just brilliantly played. You're a fucking moron and your desire to just argue over anything whatsoever warrants you a block.
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#111836 - 03/16/17 01:18 PM Re: Another one of my Idols . . . [Re: Oxus]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
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So you are unable to produce a cogent explanation for your position because you lack a physical keyboard?

Seems legit.
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#111837 - 03/16/17 01:23 PM Re: Another one of my Idols . . . [Re: Oxus]
Czereda Offline
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Posts: 1846
Loc: Poland
 Originally Posted By: Oxus
In India, what they refer to as the LHP is not what we have come to refer to as the LHP. Hence why I use Western in front.


All the tantric practices, though different, are meant to produce the same result - help the practitioner to achieve enlightenment and the state of godhood. So in the long run it doesn't matter whether you practice dakshinachara or kaulachara or vamachara. They are mere toolboxes you use for doing the same job. It is something an average Westerner accustomed to dualistic thinking finds hard to understand; that "good" and "evil" are aspects of the same divinity. Dakshinachara means the worship of the benign, protective and nourishing aspect of the divine. Vamachara refers to the terrible and the destructive side of the deity. But it's the same deity, the same source and the same destination. In other words, all roads lead to Rome.

Here is an interesting article:
http://shaktisadhana.50megs.com/Newhomepage/Resource/essays/4traditionsofsrividya.html

In my opinion, talking about Western and Eastern LHP is superfluous. It's like in the case of yoga. It's not that there are two yoga traditions; Eastern and Western one. There is just yoga and the dumbass Westerners practicing something they think is yoga.


Edited by Czereda (03/16/17 01:29 PM)
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#111839 - 03/16/17 03:07 PM Re: Another one of my Idols . . . [Re: Czereda]
Dan_Dread Offline
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I'm going to take this very rare opportunity to agree with something you wrote.

Two methods, one goal. Of course, the methods are quite different, and there is no guarantees as per the effectiveness of either. They are more of a human inevitably than a specific practice, and the concept certainly transcends any specific culture or geography.
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#111844 - 03/17/17 08:08 AM Re: Another one of my Idols . . . [Re: Oxus]
Megatron Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Oxus
That was just brilliantly played. You're a fucking moron and your desire to just argue over anything whatsoever warrants you a block.


Oh noes, I've made your ignore list. How on earth am I going to deal with this monumental tragedy?

Oh yeah, Iron Fist dropped this morning. I guess I'll cry in the corner while I watch in my mommy's basement.
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#111846 - 03/17/17 10:34 AM Re: Another one of my Idols . . . [Re: Czereda]
SIN3 Offline
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I can't.

It's not just Westerners that hold concepts of Dualism. Hindus do also. The goal is very different depending on *how* you practice.


I pulled up this piece for your perusal.


 Quote:
The Purusha-Prakriti and Shiva-Shakti pairs of Indian thought also represent passive and active, matter and energy, gross and subtle, and the right and the left. The Right is Dakshina: saral (straightforward), honest, impartial, amiable, compliant and submissive. It is also the South. The Left is Vama: crooked, reverse, contrary, opposite; yet lovely, beautiful, and charming.


Shatki/Shiva (visual aids) are dual energies that work together. The Electric upon the Static. Even within India there are schisms and misunderstandings, which is why you have these people constantly bickering about it, not much differently than on this forum.


There are several schools of thought and there remains a percentage of people that conceptualize attainment as reaching some higher plane with rewards. Not just a higher awareness of the world but also taking these divinities as something 'other' than self. So, we can't realistically say it's to reach the same goal because that goal may be very different. Different because the base understanding is off from the original intended message.

Not that the message was obscure from the start but because people that preach, share and write gain an audience.

 Quote:
The Hindu world-view holds the cosmos to be holonomic and symmetric, but within that symmetry the existence of two opposite and complimentary principles is recognised.


I think it was Osho Rajneesh that said, meditation is a back-door approach.

In practice, it's similar to how other Eastern religions regard human behavior. Love shouldn't be Lust. Lust, is the back door entry.

The RHP method to achieving 'consciousness' was to suffer pain (visa vis penance) rather than delving into what you wanted a higher understanding of (aka the insight role).

This is why there are two tantric practices. One of the Spirit (RHP) and one of the Flesh (LHP).

Neither are conceptualized differently from East to West.
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#111856 - 03/17/17 09:38 PM Re: Another one of my Idols . . . [Re: SIN3]
Creatura Noptii Offline
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Registered: 01/02/16
Posts: 819
Loc: Oregon
 Quote:
That was just brilliantly played. You're a fucking moron and your desire to just argue over anything whatsoever warrants you a block.


HA HAAA!

I just have to say that in the short time I've been here, I've noticed you arguing on the same subject, flinging from the same old batch of weaksauce.

I get it though. People like to argue. I just think that you know... on a whole, there are many other subjects at hand.

Right left east west, the fuck ever.

A slight amusement at most.

Useless on the whole.
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#111863 - 03/18/17 12:02 PM Re: Another one of my Idols . . . [Re: Creatura Noptii]
Oxus Offline
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Feeling better and have my 'puter back, here goes;

The RHP accepts the idea there is a greater something whether a God, Nature, or some form of the Absolute to which we are inherently a part of and to which we are to return to / absolve etc.

The LHP involves heterodox practices designed to Individuate the person while also realizing that person's primordial self, which is still in some way absolved into some external deity.

Western LHP is an autotheistic approach that doesn't believe there is an external deity only a higher Self to which one embraces. There is no heterodoxy involved because there is no religious system to rebel against. This Self is realized and embraced through Antinomianism practices.

In this respect Eastern Left & Right hand traditions seek the same results but through different practices.
However, the Western LHP tradition there is no integration into the divine, in fact there is separation from anything perceived as such and the strengthening of one's isolate intelligence / psyche / soul etc.

Eastern and Western Left Hand Paths are not the same because the West approaches self-deification differently than in the East. The East works through heterodoxy means and is reliant on cultural norms to go against / the West seeks subjective norms of Antinomy, the East is reliant on the idea of deity / the West scoffs at the idea of deity and places one's isolate consciousness at the throne.

That said, Vamachara although translating to 'left hand(ed)' is not and was never intended to be anything similar to the recent traditions of the West (or visa versa) when it comes to 'spiritual goals', I would agree that a better term other than 'Western Left Hand Path' could and should be used so as to permanently sever its tie from the East.

Heterodoxy is dependent upon a set of orthodox laws, in other words there needs to have been a spiritual doctrine believed in order to have something to go 'against', this may relate to those Satanists who believe they need to be Anti-Christian. Antinomianism is best explain through its Greek etymology ἀντί (anti "against") + νόμος (nomos "law") which is not reliant on any spiritual doctrine.


Edited by Oxus (03/18/17 12:04 PM)

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#111864 - 03/18/17 12:19 PM Re: Another one of my Idols . . . [Re: Oxus]
Oxus Offline
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"Despite LaVey’s atheistic and pantheistic leanings, Satanism / the WLHP has evolved over time in to many different paths, including Luciferianism, Setianism, Ahrimanism, Dionysianism (sp?), and all such similar paths. All together these make up the WLHP, and they all share certain common traits – apathy towards cultural norms/values, a high respect for subjective experience, and perhaps most importantly, a focus on the individual Self. This is taken to the extreme extent of self-deification, whether that means becoming metaphorically godlike in this life, or literally continuing as godlike being after death. Many people try and say that the WLHP is invalid and such because of this, as the traditional LHP in the East still had the goal of the loss of ego, nirvana, etc. This, however, is specifically WHY the WLHP specifies that it is not Eastern in its very name. The WLHP is also apathetic to values and such, rather than strictly heterodox in nature. In some of Don Webb’s texts from the Temple of Set, for instance, he explicitly explains that sometimes teaming up with authority can be a means to success and power. A follower of the WLHP will obey State laws not because they accept the authority of the state, but because the punishment is not worth the reward. Try getting a meaningful job with multiple felonies, for example. Understanding how the system works does not mean one agrees with or supports it."

"So yes, there is a lot of misunderstanding and lies about the WLHP. It boils down to nothing more than that. The WLHP is not evil, and practitioners tend to keep out of trouble. Something like assaulting a man you are upset with would never be worth the monetary and temporal loss. The WLHP does not claim a relation to the ELHP, heterodoxy and loss of the self are not of interest to practitioners of the WLHP. It’s also ridiculous to claim that the WLHP somehow is not real or is inauthentic, and there are many academic works out there discussing the topic, the two best I’ve read already being mentioned, and containing many more sources within them. Finally, to view the WLHP as selfish in some way is not entirely accurate. The WLHP essentially deifies the Self, but not just the individuals Self, the Self in general. All people are individuals, and so all people are deified at least to an extent. Yes, in the WLHP there is no belief that all people are eternally equal, and people can certainly be seen as “beyond hope”, but this is not the same as the selfishness often presented."
_________________________________________
https://www.reddit.com/r/occult/comments/4i38y9/the_western_lefthand_path/

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#111865 - 03/18/17 01:29 PM Re: Another one of my Idols . . . [Re: Oxus]
Czereda Offline
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The God is the Self. There is no other God. All the religions, whether in the East or West, are about deifying the Self, even if that Self is externalized for the sake of convenience. Jesus is just a man, an ordinary dude who achieved the state of godhood. The funny thing is that whether you repeat after Jesus "You are gods" or after LaVey " The God you save may be yourself", it basically means the same thing. Personally, I regard all the pontifications about LHP and RHP as pseudointellectual bullshit and evidence that you can't see the forest for all the trees and leaves there.
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#111867 - 03/18/17 03:27 PM Re: Another one of my Idols . . . [Re: Oxus]
CanisMachina42 Offline
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Posts: 1160
Loc: San Diego, CA
This fucking thread...

You want it all but you can have it. It's in your face but you can't grab it.

What is it?

Textbook knowledge on a subject that defines itself through personality. It sucks you're not "born", it's not easy when something you want to be isn't really you.  If it was you'd see the disconnect between what your saying and why no amount of you explaining shit gives you the "it" factor, let alone an ability to recognize it.

 Quote:
Feeling better and have my 'puter back, here goes;


That's some bitch shit right there. Don't cop out with technical difficulties, Just say:

I got my ass handed to me in debate and needed a day or so to compose another wall text to further smash my head into.

Nailed by my Galaxy smartphone.
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#111870 - 03/18/17 08:01 PM Re: Another one of my Idols . . . [Re: CanisMachina42]
XiaoGui17 Offline
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Registered: 10/21/09
Posts: 1143
Loc: Amarillo, TX
 Originally Posted By: CanisMachina42
This fucking thread...

You want it all but you can have it. It's in your face but you can't grab it.

What is it?

Sex, obviously, and thanks for getting that stuck in my head.

 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread
So you are unable to produce a cogent explanation for your position because you lack a physical keyboard?

Seems legit.

Or long posts get tiring with a little swipe keyboard.

I just had to go back and correct half the words in that sentence because my phone fucked* them up. Oxus is a tool, no doubt, but I can certainly relate to the desire for a good, old-fashioned keyboard to make a long post.

*no, autocorrect, I did not mean "ducked."

This thread reminds me of the times a hapless deer mouse wandered into my apartment and my cats took turns ducking** with it.


**Duck, I'm leaving that one.
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#111875 - 03/19/17 01:11 AM Re: Another one of my Idols . . . [Re: XiaoGui17]
Czereda Offline
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 Originally Posted By: XiaoGui17



**Duck, I'm leaving that one.


Damn but it's so cute!

If this is supposed to be JK, I'm taking him home. Just curious how he will get along with my Puszek. It's gonna be a freaking show. Will post a movie on YouYube.
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#111876 - 03/19/17 02:23 AM Re: Another one of my Idols . . . [Re: Oxus]
Dan_Dread Offline
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So, the LHP of the west has nothing to flow against, nothing to be heterodox to.

Ok

Yet at the same time you say it is antinomian, which requires of course, a Nomos to run counter to.

But the eastern LHP's relies on spirituality to counter, yet the western doesn't.

Ok.

So you have confused the form with the substance, which is what everyone has been telling you since page one. The substance, the method, the doing, is exactly the same.

To be heterodox to, or antinomian of a system remains the same regardless of what the predominant beliefs are, it doesn't matter if the 'master' comes in the form of some invisible bogeyman or if it comes in the form of arbitrary laws and customs, as they both are the same - the laws and customs of men.

It doesn't matter what those laws and customs are, or where they come from - as they are only really relevant to the one DOING.

Your divide remains unmeaningful. The path is the path.
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#111880 - 03/19/17 09:32 AM Re: Another one of my Idols . . . [Re: Dan_Dread]
Oxus Offline
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While it is true that both heterodoxy and antinomianism bounce off of something, that's where it ends however. The heterodoxy of the eastern paths seeks separation in order to experience the Divine better. Antinomianism is Jungian individuation, it seeks separation in order to experience one's Self better.

The so-called left handed goals of the east are different than that of the west. Shaivism is not Satanism nor is it Luciferianism, Setian or a Niner philosophy. Are you trying to experience some lord Satan better or are you trying to experience the better you?

On a last note here; I see the word 'nomian' used a lot. The word anti-nomian although developed and used to pit one against Christian religious authority is probably the original meaning, however it has evolved into newer and less restrictive meanings. I am certainly not using it to bounce off of Christianity.

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#111884 - 03/19/17 01:50 PM Re: Another one of my Idols . . . [Re: Oxus]
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You can use a hammer to build a house. You can use a hammer to build a cabinet.

The very same hammer.
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#111888 - 03/19/17 04:22 PM Re: Another one of my Idols . . . [Re: Dan_Dread]
Oxus Offline
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That makes no sense. How is separating your self from religious doctrine in order to experience the divine the same as separating your Self from your pathetic self through individuation?
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#111891 - 03/19/17 07:44 PM Re: Another one of my Idols . . . [Re: Oxus]
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Religious doctrine only has power over you if you internalize it. It's the same thing. 'Other' is 'Other'. You are focussed on the bottle.
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#111900 - 03/20/17 11:52 AM Re: Another one of my Idols . . . [Re: Oxus]
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Having read your new replies. It's obvious you have cognitive dissonance. You have invested so much in your beliefs that you can't wrap your head around this subject.

Instead of taking a few days to organize a reply, (in what you believe is a well thought out response) may I suggest doing actual research into how the East applies it?

You're missing the mark here. Clue 1: It doesn't have shit to do with LaVey or how he mediates it for mass consumption using contextual concepts.
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#111902 - 03/20/17 12:00 PM Re: Another one of my Idols . . . [Re: SIN3]
Oxus Offline
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Then please correct me in your perceived understanding of my misunderstanding of the Eastern LHP. For once I'd like to hear something from you other than what you believe are the faults of another.

At least Dan Dread is making an effort to either see where I'm coming from or to correct me as he sees fit.


Edited by Oxus (03/20/17 12:01 PM)

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#111904 - 03/20/17 12:11 PM Re: Another one of my Idols . . . [Re: Oxus]
SIN3 Offline
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 Quote:
For once I'd like to hear something from you other than what you believe are the faults of another.


I'm not playing ring around the rosie with you Ox, I've posted plenty to break it down in the simplest of terms. I've even included archive topics. This is why I can only conclude that you have cognitive dissonance. Which is just a way to describe the investment into your beliefs, that you reject all contrary information.
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#111906 - 03/20/17 04:06 PM Re: Another one of my Idols . . . [Re: SIN3]
Oxus Offline
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Then I can safely assume that some of you here are nothing more than Shaivites in Devil costumes? That you are simply rebelling against a belief system (Christianity) and by doing so are only giving credibility to that belief system as well as enabling that system to define your 'Satanism'. There is no individuality involved or uniqueness because of your relinquishing of power to another system of belief. Your Satanism only exists because the Church allows it to. Sad . . .
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#111907 - 03/20/17 04:25 PM Re: Another one of my Idols . . . [Re: Oxus]
Dimitri Offline
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There is a small discernable difference between "E-LHP" and "W-LHP".

The "Eastern school" has a more "RHP"-orientated mindset wherein the heterodox lifestyle is validated by "celebrating that all is carrying divinity and must be respected as such".
It carries out antinomian and heterodox practices under this guise.

The "Western school" holds the attitude nothing is holy and nothing can be truly considered as "sinful". In here, heterodoxy and antinomian behavior is being carried out as it is understood for being "just another choice that can be opted for".

Both "schools" are LHP in that they perform, indulge and offer the choice of going against the established "norm". There's no need to differentiate between "Western" and "Eastern" as they both strive and stand for heterodoxy as an equally valid choice.

The "initial mindsets" may differ. But the underlying red line remains the same.
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#111908 - 03/20/17 04:26 PM Re: Another one of my Idols . . . [Re: Oxus]
Dan_Dread Offline
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I personally have never had the Christian indoctrination treatment, so that was never my chain to break.

However, that doesn't mean I am immune to cultural spillover, as nobody is. We are literally sauteed in it from birth.
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#111909 - 03/20/17 05:31 PM Re: Another one of my Idols . . . [Re: Dimitri]
Oxus Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
There is a small discernable difference between "E-LHP" and "W-LHP".
then you at least agree there exists a definitive difference!

 Quote:
The "Eastern school" has a more "RHP"-orientated mindset wherein the heterodox lifestyle is validated by "celebrating that all is carrying divinity and must be respected as such".
It carries out antinomian and heterodox practices under this guise.

The "Western school" holds the attitude nothing is holy and nothing can be truly considered as "sinful". In here, heterodoxy and antinomian behavior is being carried out as it is understood for being "just another choice that can be opted for".

Both "schools" are LHP in that they perform, indulge and offer the choice of going against the established "norm". There's no need to differentiate between "Western" and "Eastern" as they both strive and stand for heterodoxy as an equally valid choice.

The "initial mindsets" may differ. But the underlying red line remains the same.


The CoS is a good example of a heterodoxy approach, the church defined their Satanism, it was the church that needed to be separated from by going against their tenets. This is similar if not exactly what the eastern LHP's do. That is heterodoxy and what vamachara, shaivism, and tantra is all about. This however is not what it is about in the Western LHP's, which is the experience of higher Self from lower self through individuation.

On the other hand, antinomianism does not need a belief system to rebel against, what is rebelled against and separated from, is one's lower self in order to experience one's higher Self.

THAT is what I speak of when I use the term Western Left Hand Path.

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#111910 - 03/20/17 05:37 PM Re: Another one of my Idols . . . [Re: Dan_Dread]
Oxus Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread
I personally have never had the Christian indoctrination treatment, so that was never my chain to break.

However, that doesn't mean I am immune to cultural spillover, as nobody is. We are literally sauteed in it from birth.
i hear that, and maybe we all begin heterodoxical (is that a word?) in that we need rid ourselves of prior indoctrination, then move into antinomian practices of discovering the true and higher GodSelf, which is the Western approach.

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#111912 - 03/20/17 07:13 PM Re: Another one of my Idols . . . [Re: Oxus]
Dan_Dread Offline
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I still don't see your distinction, but I can only type that so many times I guess.

To be heterodox is to simply be different than the rest, in the form of action it is to do the things that are not-orthdox,with intent.

To be antinomian is to willfully violate the boundaries of Nomos/law/culture, which is to say do the things that are not-orthdox. ;\)

As far as finding some godself, that doesn't even play a part. At least, that is not how I would frame it. It's more, to me, a matter of just maximizing autonomy.

You only shed your mortal coil once, and after that it's too late for further growth or introspection. If a lifetime of trying to become a godform ends one up like Grandpa Munster, I think I'll pass!

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#111920 - 03/21/17 02:43 AM Re: Another one of my Idols . . . [Re: Oxus]
Dimitri Offline
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 Originally Posted By: CN
then you at least agree there exists a definitive difference!

There's a small difference.
Compare it like the difference between a chicken's egg and ostrich egg. The concept remains the same, the animal is different.

The difference here is merely culture. The practice and attitude is quite universal.

 Originally Posted By: CN
The CoS is a good example of a heterodoxy approach, the church defined their Satanism, it was the church that needed to be separated from by going against their tenets. This is similar if not exactly what the eastern LHP's do. That is heterodoxy and what vamachara, shaivism, and tantra is all about.

Pre-1976 the CoS might have been a good example. Even though white-washing was still going on...
They've copyrighted, and brought into limelight, heterodoxy in the West. Not much more need to be accredited to it.

If I want to be a nit-picker then I'll have to say that anti-nomian behavior is only limited to Christian countries as it literally stands for
 Originally Posted By: Webster
1: one who holds that under the gospel dispensation of grace (see 1grace 1a) the moral law is of no use or obligation because faith alone is necessary to salvation

[2: one who rejects a socially established morality]


What it concerns "The West" and the higher self... that's just bastardization. Remember man is JUST another animal

The higher Self is more a theme for Luciferians and people who want to feel special.
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#111924 - 03/21/17 08:58 AM Re: Another one of my Idols . . . [Re: Oxus]
Dark Magician Offline
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OXUS:

Then I can safely assume that some of you here are nothing more than Shaivites in Devil costumes? That you are simply rebelling against a belief system (Christianity) and by doing so are only giving credibility to that belief system as well as enabling that system to define your 'Satanism'. There is no individuality involved or uniqueness because of your relinquishing of power to another system of belief. Your Satanism only exists because the Church allows it to. Sad . . .

The above quote struck me as interesting.

To get immanent - to follow it through.

Philosophical and psychological alterity lies at the heart of this matter – we define ourselves in distinction to and against an Other.

Satanism was created by “them” as the practice or doing of their Other.

Satan as an Other and Satanism as a practice of the Other draws its coherence through its distinction to and against Judeo-Christian religion and culture. If it didn’t do that, then those words would fade away as signifiers capable of drawing a convincing meaning.

Hence most Modern Satanism has a fascination with elitism, Social Darwinism, hierarchy, carnal indulgence, individualism and this strange fascination with a nature defined as adversarial, ruthless and cruel etc.

And further, most Modern Satanism describes a type of doing or praxis which is anti-Judeo Christian in character, which is consistent with an Other defined by “them” in distinction to and against their Judeo-Christian doing.

When you start to move away from a type of doing or praxis which is anti-Judeo Christian in character then the signifier once again begins to lose its meaning.

Also, here is some correct information on cognitive dissonance:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance

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#111925 - 03/21/17 09:42 AM Re: Another one of my Idols . . . [Re: Dark Magician]
Dan_Dread Offline
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 Quote:

And further, most Modern Satanism describes a type of doing or praxis which is anti-Judeo Christian in character, which is consistent with an Other defined by “them” in distinction to and against their Judeo-Christian doing.


Well, in theory. In practice most 'modern Satanism' is anything but antinomian; especially the CoS brand.

Those guys practically worship the law.
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#111927 - 03/21/17 10:11 AM Re: Another one of my Idols . . . [Re: Oxus]
SIN3 Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Oxus
Then I can safely assume that some of you here are nothing more than Shaivites in Devil costumes?


No.


 Quote:

That you are simply rebelling against a belief system


Belief systems permeate any given society. It isn't just religion. I think that because you are hard-focused on religion, that's the only point of reference you understand. There are tons of influences we are subjected to at birth that its any wonder individuality can even happen. The path of Taboo is delving into any aspect that is shunned by a society. It can be knowledge, aesthetic, expression, et. al. I think people get hung up on labels too, as if this is what your person is, a label. The label is only relevant as a prescriptive descriptor for the action, not the person. The actor is doing the action.


 Quote:
(Christianity) and by doing so are only giving credibility to that belief system as well as enabling that system to define your 'Satanism'.
No, this is a gross misunderstanding. There are people that are actively peeling away religious influences, I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss them. Satan as a label would be useful to those folks in proper context but that doesn't mean the rest have been doped up on Jesus.

 Quote:
There is no individuality involved or uniqueness because of your relinquishing of power to another system of belief. Your satanism only exists because the Church allows it to. Sad . . .


No. Again, this is just your belief and shallow understanding of the subject matter. Whatever Nomos is coming down shits creek, Heterdoxy is just one method to paddle against that current.

For a guy that pisses and whines about snark and condescension, you sure do avoid mirrors.
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#111928 - 03/21/17 11:51 AM Re: Another one of my Idols . . . [Re: SIN3]
Oxus Offline
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I've discussed this with quite a few people now, outside of the 600C and they are for the most in agreement with what I am saying. I really have no desire to un-muddy some of your comprehension abilities, or rather lack of, and since this has run its course on both ends I believe it is time to put it to bed . . . until the next 600 diatribe!
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#111929 - 03/21/17 12:27 PM Re: Another one of my Idols . . . [Re: Oxus]
Megatron Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Oxus
I've discussed this with quite a few people now, outside of the 600C and they are for the most in agreement with what I am saying. I really have no desire to un-muddy some of your comprehension abilities, or rather lack of, and since this has run its course on both ends I believe it is time to put it to bed . . . until the next 600 diatribe!


Ad populum much?

This is starting to get ridiculous. You are quite literally being out-pointed at every turn. Ignore me all you want, you can't ignore the losing end of an argument.

That's all, folks.
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#111936 - 03/21/17 04:06 PM Re: Another one of my Idols . . . [Re: Oxus]
Dan_Dread Offline
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That's a shame.

Perhaps you should polish up the old argument for this one before you drop it again eh?

I mean, even if there is some lucid, meaningful distinction to be had here you haven't articulated it in this thread.

Honestly, it would be really cool if you did carve something out for yourself here. I'm a big fan of that. So far though, you just seem to have a fuzzy idea drifting around in there.

Gotta start somewhere though, right?
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#111938 - 03/21/17 06:53 PM Re: Another one of my Idols . . . [Re: Dan_Dread]
Oxus Offline
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I clearly stated it, not my fault some of you can't grasp it.
I'm sure I'm wasting my time with this . . .

Antinomianism, states that practitioners think of themselves as ‘going against the grain’ of their culturally conditioned and conventional norms of ‘good’ and ‘evil’. True Lords of the Left-hand Path will have the spiritual courage to identify himself [sic] with the cultural norms of ‘evil’. There will be an embracing of the symbols of … whatever quality the conventional culture fears and loathes."

"Despite the fact that antinomianism is usually characteristic of the left-hand path, Crowley uses it to right-hand path ends. The core of Crowley’s magical philosophy is the willed dissolution of opposites - ‘Let there be no difference …between any one thing and any other thing’…"
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Antinomianism by Phil Hine


"The term Dakshinachara (Right-Hand Path) is a technical term used to refer to Tantric sects that do not engage in these heterodox practices. In contrast, Vamachara (Left-Hand Path) is used to describe particular tantric practices that are considered heterodox according to usual Hindu social norms."
______________
Taantrik.com

The synonyms for Heterodoxy are: (nowhere is antinomism cited)
dissident
doubtful
iconoclastic
skeptical



Edited by Oxus (03/21/17 07:17 PM)

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#111939 - 03/21/17 07:13 PM Re: Another one of my Idols . . . [Re: Oxus]
Megatron Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Oxus
I clearly stated it, not my fault some of you can't grasp it.


This is fun. Make sure you don't click it unless you want to see what a dunce you've become . . .
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#111943 - 03/22/17 01:18 AM Re: Another one of my Idols . . . [Re: Oxus]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Then again, I might as well hold out hope that roosters might start laying eggs for all the good it would do.
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#111949 - 03/22/17 10:21 AM Re: Another one of my Idols . . . [Re: Oxus]
SIN3 Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Oxus
I've discussed this with quite a few people now, outside of the 600C and they are for the most in agreement with what I am saying.


This right here says it all.

 Quote:
I really have no desire to un-muddy some of your comprehension abilities, or rather lack of, and since this has run its course on both ends I believe it is time to put it to bed . . . until the next 600 diatribe!


Well thank Satan for that. Last thing I'd want to do is disturb your precious shit.
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