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#112347 - 04/15/17 02:45 PM Satanism without LaVey: Possible?
Sargeist Offline
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And everything that implies.

I've made it no secret what my take on Satanism is, which I'm not blind enough to realize that it's basically everything LaVey stood against. After all if it weren't for Ayn Rand there'd be no Satanism as it is practiced by most these days.

Yet the whole idea that one is free to do that which they desire is simply not true: What we perceive to be consciously made choices based on free will have their root on both our genetic makeup and environment. Once you remove the idea of Freedom the whole of Libertarianism (and by proxy Satanism) falls apart.

This also means that Existencialism is bullshit, you simply cannot create your perception of yourself out of thin air: The way you deal with the world is a consequence of how your brain is formed: take it away and all you have left is a empty drooling shell incapable of forming any idea of "self."

So, is Satanism possible without none of the foundations laid by LaVey? You could probably think this dangerously tresspasses into fluffy-bunny territory but if Satanic ideas can't successfully pass scrutiny then shouldn't they be discarded? What happens after that?


Edited by Sargeist (04/15/17 02:47 PM)
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#112349 - 04/15/17 09:39 PM Re: Satanism without LaVey: Possible? [Re: Sargeist]
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SARGEIST:

I've made it no secret what my take on Satanism is, which I'm not blind enough to realize that it's basically everything LaVey stood against. After all if it weren't for Ayn Rand there'd be no Satanism as it is practiced by most these days.

Yet the whole idea that one is free to do that which they desire is simply not true: What we perceive to be consciously made choices based on free will have their root on both our genetic makeup and environment. Once you remove the idea of Freedom the whole of Libertarianism (and by proxy Satanism) falls apart.

This also means that Existentialism is bullshit, you simply cannot create your perception of yourself out of thin air: The way you deal with the world is a consequence of how your brain is formed: take it away and all you have left is a empty drooling shell incapable of forming any idea of "self."

So, is Satanism possible without any of the foundations laid by LaVey? You could probably think this dangerously trespasses into fluffy-bunny territory but if satanic ideas can't successfully pass scrutiny then shouldn't they be discarded? What happens after that?


This is what I read, after I spent some time spell and grammar checking the original post.

The opening poster’s brand of Satanism is completely different from Anton LaVey’s brand of Satanism. The O.P’s Satanism stands in opposition to LaVey’s Satanism.

This is MY Satanism against LaVey’s Satanism.

Most Satanism practiced today relies on Ayn Rand’s philosophy of Objectivism and individualism for its philosophical justification. This is the case with LaVey’s Satanism i.e. he relies on Ayn Rand’s thought.

Objective tools, artefacts and traits, such as my brain, my genetics and my environment determine and limit an objective reality, which I am necessarily immersed in as a material "thing" and which is materially distinct from me.

If I take away my brain, then I cannot form an idea of my-self. Apparently, I will drool if I take away my brain.

There is also no free will whatsoever There is no freedom - I cannot just sprout wings and fly away into the blue blue sky if I desire to. I am only limited to doing a certain range of things, given my physical and psychological limitations, in relation to the tools and the environment at my disposal and within which I am situated. Hmmm, cool stuff. I am very limited in my trip.

There is a reference to Existentialism – apparently this philosophy entails the creation of a perception of your-self out of thin air. Bewdy.

And also the question is posed: can there be a Satanism without reference to LaVey?

How often has this last question been discussed in the satanic community in the last five years? How many different answers have been put?

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#112352 - 04/16/17 03:17 PM Re: Satanism without LaVey: Possible? [Re: Sargeist]
Czereda Online
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 Quote:
Yet the whole idea that one is free to do that which they desire is simply not true...


I think you misunderstood LaVey's philosophy. In one of his essays LaVey stated that he's quite fond of catism. And he had that light and carefree attitude to life till the end of his days. LaVey's Satanism is close to catism. It's mostly about enjoying life as it is with the minimum effort put in. Perhaps, you're reading too much into it.


Edited by Czereda (04/16/17 03:20 PM)
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#112353 - 04/16/17 05:25 PM Re: Satanism without LaVey: Possible? [Re: Czereda]
Sargeist Offline
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I'm fully aware of Catism, yet that still implies that one has an inherent freedom to do just like a cat and make the less effort possible on everything and lead a carefree life. That also clashes with the recurrent satanic theme I see frequently here: Ambition and doing whatever needs to be done to get what you want.

Edited by Sargeist (04/16/17 05:26 PM)
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#112354 - 04/16/17 06:41 PM Re: Satanism without LaVey: Possible? [Re: Sargeist]
Czereda Online
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Catism isn't about ambition. You're talking about strife all the time whereas LaVey's Satanism puts enjoyment before ambition. It's cherishing your life as it is. Talk about cats. Even homeless ones can make themselves comfortable. Animals don't complain. Just like LaVey who didn't mind living in a dilapidated house and never thought about renovating it. You seem to be seeing in it something that isn't there.
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#112355 - 04/16/17 08:39 PM Re: Satanism without LaVey: Possible? [Re: Sargeist]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
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Sure, just as sports cars without Enzo Ferrari, Irish line dancing without Michael Flatley, and martial arts without Bruce Lee ...
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#112362 - 04/17/17 09:46 AM Re: Satanism without LaVey: Possible? [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Pompous windbaggery without Michael​ Aquino...
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#112364 - 04/17/17 10:54 AM Re: Satanism without LaVey: Possible? [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
Megatron Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Michael A.Aquino
Sure, just as sports cars without Enzo Ferrari


I think you meant Ferdinand Porsche.

 Originally Posted By: Dr. Mike
Irish line dancing without Michael Flatley


Let me finish your sentence: "would've stayed Irish."

 Originally Posted By: BruceLeeFan36
martial arts without Bruce Lee ...


So he had no sensei himself, right? Learned it straight from the Dragon? And Jeet Kun Do has never been improved upon as an early example of MMA?

It seems like you're painting with a bad set of analogies today, Dr. Mike.
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#112376 - 04/17/17 04:46 PM Re: Satanism without LaVey: Possible? [Re: Megatron]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Actually, Bruce Lee didn't have a Sensei..He had a Sifu. \:\)

His wushu lineage wouldn't have suffered without him, he was pretty much a dead end in the branch. It was his teacher, Yip Man, that popularized Wing Tsun and brought it to the west. The Lions share of existent lineages trace back to him.
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#112377 - 04/17/17 04:56 PM Re: Satanism without LaVey: Possible? [Re: Dan_Dread]
Creatura Noptii Offline
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@ Dan:

Dead end how?

 Originally Posted By: Megatron
And Jeet Kun Do has never been improved upon as an early example of MMA?


I've watched Bruce Lee, and I've seen these modern people, and I'm personally not convinced they've advanced to Lee's capability, let alone surpassed it.

I am open to the idea, I just don't see it.
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#112387 - 04/18/17 02:56 AM Re: Satanism without LaVey: Possible? [Re: Megatron]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Megatron
 Originally Posted By: Michael A.Aquino
Sure, just as sports cars without Enzo Ferrari

I think you meant Ferdinand Porsche.

No, I think you're missing the point. Yes, there have been many great car constructors - Porsche, Colin Chapman, David Brown, Carroll Shelby, et al. But:

 Originally Posted By: Enzo Ferrari
... ho dedicato la mia vita all’automobile: una conquista di libertà per l’uomo ... [I have devoted my life to the automobile, which has won the human race its freedom.]
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#112391 - 04/18/17 08:39 AM Re: Satanism without LaVey: Possible? [Re: Creatura Noptii]
Dan_Dread Offline
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A dead end in that all existent lines of WingTsun would still be as is, even if he had never existed.

Sure, we would have less kids playing with nunchucks in their basement, but Lee didn't teach many students that went on to open their own WT schools. Yip Man was the guy that 'brought it to the West', not Lee.
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#112393 - 04/18/17 08:53 AM Re: Satanism without LaVey: Possible? [Re: Dan_Dread]
Sargeist Offline
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Nevertheless, Aquino's point still stands. We wouldn't know of WT if it weren't for Yip Man and it's probably the same for LaVey and Satanism.

One could make the case that Satanism has always existed under different names and bases itself into doing that which the rest of society doesn't, but if it is mere heterodoxy then why call it Satanism? Surely there are plenty of people with an heterodox way of living and they don't go around calling their actions satanic, right?


Edited by Sargeist (04/18/17 08:59 AM)
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#112412 - 04/18/17 03:43 PM Re: Satanism without LaVey: Possible? [Re: Sargeist]
SIN3 Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Sarg
and it's probably the same for LaVey and Satanism.


Not even close. Plenty were on a LHP, they just didn't have descriptors they found suitable. Keep in mind that only we that appreciate the satire of the Devil even use it at all. We aren't Hindus or Devil Worshipers, eh?

Hell I used a bunch of descriptors before my Librarian recommended the TSB BECAUSE of my research trend, not in spite of it.

Do you honestly believe that I read that book and said "AHA, I WILL NOW BECOME a SATANIST!"

I imagine it happens frequently enough that it's considered norm I suppose, but come on that doesn't even make any sense.

My Satanism started long before I was even old enough to read.
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#112415 - 04/18/17 05:39 PM Re: Satanism without LaVey: Possible? [Re: SIN3]
Sargeist Offline
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Loc: Chile
So that takes care of that.

Still, the question remains: If Satanists believe that Existence precedes Essence, is one a Satanist if they believe in the opposite?


Edited by Sargeist (04/18/17 06:01 PM)
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