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#112356 - 04/16/17 11:28 PM As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan.....
LoneWolf78 Offline
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Registered: 05/21/14
Posts: 435
In this news essay Peter Gilmore explains why that the CoS drifts further from Satanism as it was defined by Anton LaVey.

For all of the newbies and those who are old enough to (and should) know better, be aware of the Gilmore double speak as we will look at a bit further.

A prime example of this can be found in the following, where Peter says,

 Originally Posted By: Peter Gilmore
Occultism, however, refers to spiritually-oriented systems of thought that typically include supernatural aspects which are fundamental to their premises and practices.


However, let's look at this. Yes, he is correct in his use of occultism, but let's look at the word that it derives from: occult.

Let's consult our friend Merriam Webster on this:

 Originally Posted By: Merriam Webster


Definition of occult
1:not revealed :secret
deep subterranean occult jealousy — J. C. Powys

2:not easily apprehended or understood :abstruse, mysterious
occult matters like nuclear physics, radiation effects and the designing of rockets — Robert Bendiner

3:from view:concealed occult underground passages

4:of or relating to the occult
… the occult arts—astrology, palmistry, card reading … — Amy Fine Collins occult practices

5:not manifest or detectable by clinical methods alone occult carcinoma; also :not present in macroscopic amounts occult blood in a stool


He then goes on to imply the correct definition when he says,

 Originally Posted By: Peter Gilmore
We do not play "bait and switch," which would be an easy approach toward fleecing the wannabe occultnik rubes who write us daily. Instead, we are quite upfront that there are no secret inner circles or other forms of hidden teachings. Turning away those who have a mistaken perception of Satanism is our constant practice. Time is too precious to waste on those misguided "seekers."


In part, here, he may be somewhat correct. The CoS teachings have long been aboveboard and you gain absolutely no further knowledge by joining them. Likewise, there is nothing that has been built onto the structure since Anton LaVey's passing.

So, no, they don't play bait and switch when it comes to their practices. He just plays bait and switch with words and definitions to gain and keep the faithful. You really have to watch him when it comes to this trick folks. He is a fast talker.

Next up, we have this little gem:

 Originally Posted By: Peter Gilmore
However, since Satanism advocates free thought and exploration of what might be of interest to each Satanist, some of our members might choose to examine various forms of occult thought, both past and present, and this is not in any way "forbidden." It is not encouraged, either.


So, let's straight. Here is where Peter comes into create a sidestep for himself and by the same token give the gift of freedom.

Ha!

Are CoS members supposed to be grateful that Peter doesn't forbid them free thought and exploration?!

I know that a sucker is born every second, but let's get a little bit real here, ok?

No one, let me repeat, NO ONE needs an organization to grant them freedom of thought or exploration. Anyone who would depend upon such a set up is indeed a slave and hardly a Satanist.

Here is what a true Satanist should be asking: Suppose Uncle Pete did forbid independent study of various subjects. Would you continue in your studies or would you drop them all together out of fear that you may be labeled a "pseudo"?

It seems to me that a true Satanist does not seek organizational validation.

He then continues on with this theme of granting CoS members freedom by saying,

 Originally Posted By: Peter Gilmore
And the rational basis of the coherent philosophy we defined as Satanism provides an excellent platform for open, critical examination of many perspectives, whether they are rational or not. Our members are free to extract and employ whatever they find in them to be beneficial to themselves.


I call bullshit.

First off, as we have established any individual is capable of "open, critical examination". You do not need an organization for this. So, what is it again that the CoS is giving you?

That is what I like.

Lol.

The way that this stuff is worded says it all. In the design of this speech it is saying, "We already know that you don't think for yourselves, however, we will allow you to. Isn't that swell of us?"

Now, let's get to the real meat of this:

 Quote:
From the earliest days of the Church of Satan, which was founded during an “Occult Revival” in Western society, aspects of what was then swirling through popular culture were examined in our newsletter, THE CLOVEN HOOF. Some articles were humorous, tongue-in-cheek mockeries of astrology, "pyramid power" and other similar outré subjects that Dr. LaVey called “occultnik,” often meant to see who amongst the membership might be more absorbed in the “occulture” of the time rather than being interested in Satanism as a tool for life enhancement.


Am I missing something here?

One half of TSB was dedicated to Ritual Magic. The Satanic Rituals was entirely dedicated to Ritual Magic, even The Satanic Witch had some nifty little Greater Magic techniques.

If we are to accept the Gilmore Satanic History revision then we also must accept that two and a half books of Satanic cannon are merely a waste of page space and that the only reason they were written was to weed out the "occultnik".

On this premise we must also wonder how legendary stories of LaVey healing Jayne Mansfield's son, having parking spaces appear for him, and the curse of Sam Brody can be reconciled.

Finally we have Gilmore showing his hand:

 Quote:
So, to be clear, Satanism is a carnal, not a spiritual, religion, and it is not a form of occultism. It is an atheist, materialist philosophy that promotes individualism, rational self-interest and the celebration of the one life we have.


Or you could be direct and keep it simple, you know, like Anton LaVey did in The Satanic Bible:

 Originally Posted By: Anton LaVey
Satanism is not a white light religion; it is a religion of the flesh, the mundane, the carnal -all of which are ruled by Satan, the personification aeon of the Left Hand Path


Hmmmmm......I don't see the word Atheist anywhere in that quote.

I also would like to call on our old friend Merriam Webster:

 Originally Posted By: Merriam Webster


Definition of Atheism
1a: a lack of belief or a strong disbelief in the existence of a god or any gods

b: a philosophical or religious position characterized by disbelief in the existence of a god or any gods

2 archaic : godlessness especially in conduct : ungodliness, wickedness


 Originally Posted By: Merriam Webster


Definition of disbelief: the act of disbelieving : mental rejection of something as untrue.


 Originally Posted By: Merriam Webster


Definition of belief

1: a state or habit of mind in which trust or confidence is placed in some person or thing her belief in God a belief in democracy I bought the table in the belief that it was an antique. contrary to popular belief

2: something that is accepted, considered to be true, or held as an opinion : something believed an individual's religious or political beliefs; especially : a tenet or body of tenets held by a group the beliefs of the Catholic Church

3: conviction of the truth of some statement or the reality of some being or phenomenon especially when based on examination of evidence belief in the validity of scientific statements


 Originally Posted By: Merriam Webster


Definition of knowledge

1 obsolete : cognizance

2 a (1) : the fact or condition of knowing something with familiarity gained through experience or association (2) : acquaintance with or understanding of a science, art, or technique

b (1) : the fact or condition of being aware of something (2) : the range of one's information or understanding answered to the best of my knowledge

c : the circumstance or condition of apprehending truth or fact through reasoning : cognition

d : the fact or condition of having information or of being learned a person of unusual knowledge

3 archaic : sexual intercourse

4 a : the sum of what is known : the body of truth, information, and principles acquired by humankind

b archaic : a branch of learning


If you carefully consider the above definitions you will notice that Atheism, disbelief, and belief, all lack knowledge.

Atheism is a system of disbelief.

However, to disbelieve is to hold a belief.

For example, I believe that god as it is commonly known does not exist. I disbelieve in god. However, I cannot prove this.

When you consider the above, you can see quite clearly that Atheism is a belief system.

On the other hand we have knowledge.

Knowledge is something that you obtain once that something has been tested and verified to be true.

In other words, you can prove knowledge.

When you have knowledge, no belief is needed.

For example, I know that cash is a form of currency. I can test this by going into a store and using it as such. This will be verified when the cashier accepts the cash as a form of payment for the items I have selected.

I don't need to believe or disbelieve that cash works. I know that it does.

An Atheist would simply dismiss half of TSB, The Satanic Rituals and parts of The Satanic Witch out of hand.

An Atheist would disbelieve that those things work.

A Satanist would test them to find out.

Here we have Anton LaVey describing the true cornerstone of Satanism: Doubt

 Originally Posted By: Anton LaVey
It has been said "the truth will make men free." The truth alone has never set anyone free. It is only DOUBT which will bring mental emancipation. Without the wonderful element of doubt, the doorway through which truth passes would
be tightly shut, impervious to the most strenuous poundings of a thousand Lucifers. How understand-able that Holy Scripture
should refer to the Infernal monarch as the "father of lies"-a magnificent example of character inversion. If one is to believe this theological accusation that the Devil represents falsehood, then it surely must be concurred that it was HE, NOT GOD, THAT
ESTABLISHED ALL SPIRITUAL RELIGIONS AND WHO WROTE ALL OF THE HOLY BIBLES! When one doubt is followed by another, the bubble, grown large from long accumulated fallacies, threatens to burst. For those who already doubt supposed truths, this book is revelation. Then Lucifer will have risen. Now is the time for doubt! The bubble of falsehood is bursting and its sound is the roar of the world!


It is also interesting to note that the word Atheist is used only twice throughout the entire TSB and that is to discuss Christian atheists.

Are there also Satanic atheists?

It is quite possible for atheists to follow Anton LaVey's advice:

 Originally Posted By: Anton LaVey
If you do not believe in what your religion teaches, why continue to support a belief which is contradictory with your feelings. You would never vote for a person or issue you did not believe in, so why cast your ecclesiastical vote for a religion
which is not consistent with your convictions?


However, I am assuming that it would be even harder for those in the CoS today to claim that they invented Atheism. Likewise, they can't copyright occult and we see how much they like that word. ;\)


Edited by LoneWolf78 (04/16/17 11:33 PM)

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#112357 - 04/16/17 11:41 PM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: LoneWolf78]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3975
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
LOL, did they kick you out or something?

For the record, your definition of Atheist is way too narrow. Atheist simply means a lack of belief. You don't have to believe there are no deities to be an Atheist,you merely need to remain unconvinced.
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#112358 - 04/16/17 11:46 PM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: Dan_Dread]
LoneWolf78 Offline
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Registered: 05/21/14
Posts: 435
I accept your definition.

 Quote:
Atheist simply means a lack of belief.


Which comes out to disbelief.

Disbelief is a belief.

You are talking about skepticism.

For the record who said that I was kicked in or kicked out?


Edited by LoneWolf78 (04/16/17 11:48 PM)

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#112359 - 04/17/17 02:03 AM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: LoneWolf78]
Bartho LeMule Offline
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Registered: 10/13/13
Posts: 108
 Originally Posted By: LoneWolf78
Here we have Anton LaVey describing the true cornerstone of Satanism: Doubt


Satanism seems to share things in common with Buddhism then.

There is an old - older than LaVey - Chan Buddhist maxim that goes: "The Greater the Doubt, the Greater the Enlightenment."

This concept in Zen Buddhism is known as " Great Doubt".

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#112360 - 04/17/17 09:42 AM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: LoneWolf78]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3975
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Incorrect.

For instance, I lack a belief in the loch Ness monster. However, I don't hold one position or the other vis a vis it's existence. It's perfectly possible some small population of creatures long thought to be extinct might still exist, I just haven't seen convincing evidence yet.

An Atheist is simply one who does not hold a belief in the existence of deities, nothing more, nothing less, and this set includes everyone on earth that lacks these beliefs, including infants and Bushmen from deepest Columbia that have never even heard of the concept of 'deities' in order to deny it.
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#112363 - 04/17/17 10:30 AM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: Dan_Dread]
Megatron Offline
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Registered: 08/22/14
Posts: 859
Loc: fuckit, some kid cracked my co...
 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread
An atheist is simply one who does not hold a belief in the existence of deities, nothing more, nothing less, and this set includes everyone on earth that lacks these beliefs, including infants and Bushmen from deepest Columbia that have never even heard of the concept of 'deities' in order to deny it.


Aww shit, why'd you have to go and do that?

Look, man, it's just literally impossible to lack a belief in ANY proposition X, which proposition you know the meaning of. Given such a proposition, there are three possible belief-stances (epistemic attitudes) which you can take:

the proposition is true,

the proposition is false,

the proposition is meaningless.

There are no other epistemic attitudes you can take towards some statement you know the meaning to.

I know that right about now, you must be fuming. What about the obvious "I DON'T KNOW" as epistemic stance? That is, after all, what you were saying, right?

I would agree with you if I thought the mind could ever be brought to a truly binary (50/50) state. To the point where you had exactly even personal epistemic weight given to two contrary propositions. We're not that neat.

When it comes to gods, and possible gods, and my stance on them, I try to get specific.

Show me a god and I'll tell you whether I believe in him/her/it. Personally I answer "no" to everything except Dharmakaya, which itself is just a word/concept representing a
Warning, Spoiler:
thing
beyond imagination.

So, in short, just say no to gods. Not "I don't know."


Edited by Megatron (04/17/17 10:41 AM)
Edit Reason: Fact: Dolphins are rapists of the highest order.
_________________________
You can't beat me, I'm a fucking Transformer (TM), dude.

Oh, and I spell everything right.

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#112370 - 04/17/17 01:16 PM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: Dan_Dread]
LoneWolf78 Offline
member


Registered: 05/21/14
Posts: 435
 Quote:
For instance, I lack a belief in the loch Ness monster. However, I don't hold one position or the other vis a vis it's existence. It's perfectly possible some small population of creatures long thought to be extinct might still exist, I just haven't seen convincing evidence yet.


That is not disbelief and is not Atheism.

It is being skeptical or agnostic if you prefer.

 Quote:
An atheist is simply one who does not hold a belief in the existence of deities, nothing more, nothing less,


So an Atheist is one who does not hold a belief in the existence of deities.

That would mean that you don't have faith in the existence of these things.

Have I misunderstood something?

If I have not, that would also be disbelief which, in fact, is a belief. It takes as much faith to be an Atheist as it does to be a Christian. ;\)

 Quote:
this set includes everyone on earth that lacks these beliefs, including infants and Bushmen from deepest Columbia that have never even heard of the concept of 'deities' in order to deny it.


As you say yourself, infants or Bushmen have not been presented with these concepts to form faith, disbelief, indifference or unsure.

There is a difference between having a lack of understanding and a lack of belief.

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#112372 - 04/17/17 02:45 PM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: LoneWolf78]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3975
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
A belief is a proposition held as 'true' in the mind.

Personally, I hold the proposition 'deities' don't exist' to be true, yet doing so is not necessary to be defined as an Atheist. Many atheists either have not given serious thought to the matter, or have and are simply unsure; Or, as mentioned previously, have never been presented with the concept at all.

Anyhow, since I'm here, let's dial it back to the OP.
 Quote:


When you consider the above, you can see quite clearly that Atheism is a belief system.

On the other hand we have knowledge.

Knowledge is something that you obtain once that something has been tested and verified to be true.

In other words, you can prove knowledge.

When you have knowledge, no belief is needed.


A Ha! Here is the problem; you don't seem to have the first clue about epistemology. Allow me to dial you in.

Everything you think you know is a belief. Any proposition you hold as true is a belief. All of them.

Knowledge is 'justified true belief' which is, yes, every bit as slippery as it sounds.

Secondly, again, an Atheist is simply one who lacks a belief in deities. That doesn't mean they might not believe in anything else, from aliens to fairies to satanic greater magic.

Words mean things \:\)
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#112374 - 04/17/17 03:32 PM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: LoneWolf78]
SIN3 Offline
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Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 7188
Loc: Virginia
Here's a thought. Why should I expel the energy to muster a fuck to give about Peter's thoughts?

He doesn't play the Honey Pot well enough. He has no more importance to the methods of Satanism as any of you people do. Its my life to live. Just as I'd imagine you'd feel about your own lives.

We tread the LHP, we don't circle jerk around it.
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#112375 - 04/17/17 04:24 PM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: SIN3]
LoneWolf78 Offline
member


Registered: 05/21/14
Posts: 435
 Quote:
Here's a thought. Why should I expel the energy to muster a fuck to give about Peter's thoughts?

He doesn't play the Honey Pot well enough. He has no more importance to the methods of Satanism as any of you people do. Its my life to live. Just as I'd imagine you'd feel about your own lives.

We tread the LHP, we don't circle jerk around it.


I don't disagree with you on this.

My reason for posting this is quite simple: To call bullshit where it pertains to Satanism.

Either people will agree with my sentiments or they wont.

I have no axe to grind with the CoS. To each their own.

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#112378 - 04/17/17 05:06 PM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: Dan_Dread]
LoneWolf78 Offline
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Registered: 05/21/14
Posts: 435
I understand your thoughts on the issue.

 Quote:
Words mean things \:\)


Problems also arise when people identify with words.

 Quote:
Knowledge is 'justified true belief' which is, yes, every bit as slippery as it sounds.


I disagree.

Do you believe in mathematical equations?

Do you believe in the very real and material items around you?

Do you believe that death is a guaranteed thing?

Hopefully not.

You can demonstrate proof of work for math and have others agree and thus validate the formula.

You know what material possessions that you have and could show them to others who would agree that you do in fact have these things.

You can look through obituaries and cemeteries to see the guarantee of death.

To say that something beyond death exists is a belief.

To say that nothing beyond death exists is also a belief.

Neither argument can be proven.

Same thing with "god".

If you think that there is a big daddy in the sky that is a belief.

If you think there is no such thing as "god" that is also a belief.

You could allow, as you say, for the possibility. A kind of wait until sufficient evidence comes in and still allow for the possibility of being wrong.

That is skepticism. Which, skepticism (hopefully) occurs in epistemology, lest one become faithful.

Perhaps on this point you and I will have to agree to disagree, however.

Anyhoo, yes, back to the OP:

The word Atheist as stated before is listed exactly twice in The Satanic Bible. This is used to explain the concept of Christian Atheists. Of which LaVey says:

 Originally Posted By: Anton LaVey
Great numbers of
people are beginning to doubt the existence of God, in the established Christian sense of the
word. So, they have taken to calling themselves "Christian Atheists". True, the Christian Bible
is a mass of contradictions; but what could be more contradictory than the term "Christian
Atheist"?


It is only the version of TSB with the Gilmore introduction that the word increases from two to six.

Which to be technical is used in part as follows:

 Originally Posted By: Peter Gilmore
I first encountered Anton Szandor LaVey through The Satanic Bible, at the age of thirteen when
I was an avowed Atheist.

Not being partial to literature promoting faith of any sort, I was pleasantly surprised that this was no rant by someone claiming direct contact with Satan.

Instead, I found a common sense, rational, materialist philosophy, along with theatrical ritual
techniques meant as self-transformative psychodrama. Here was a tool perfectly suited to my nature
as a means for getting the most out of my life. I knew that "Atheist" was no longer sufficient as a
designation for myself. This book lead me to meet and befriend LaVey, working with him to
administer the Church he created, and finally to succeed him as the second High Priest of the
Church of Satan.


The other two times that Gilmore uses the word is as follows:

 Originally Posted By: Peter Gilmore
The philosophy presented in it is an integrated whole, not a smorgasbord from which one can
pick and choose. It is meant only for a select few who are epicurean, pragmatic, worldly, atheistic,
fiercely individualistic, materialistic, rational, and darkly poetic. There may be fellow-travelers —
atheists, misanthropes, humanists, freethinkers — who see only a partial reflection of themselves in
this showstone. Satanism may thus attract these types in some ways, but ultimately it is not for
them.


This, is of course, a glaring contradiction to his newest litany where he states:

 Originally Posted By: Peter Gilmore
So, to be clear, Satanism is a carnal, not a spiritual, religion, and it is not a form of occultism. It is an atheist, materialist philosophy that promotes individualism, rational self-interest and the celebration of the one life we have.


So, while in his introduction, he correctly distinguishes between Atheism and Satanism, it sounds as though he has baited and switched his way back to full on Atheism and took the CoS in the same direction.

Getting back to SIN's point which is a good one, why care what Gilmore thinks?

My reason is very simple:

It is to call bullshit.

Satanism is not Atheism.

If it were just that there would have been no use for half of TSB, the entire TSR, or parts of The Satanic Witch.

When the bedrock book of your organization uses the term Atheist twice to describe a contradiction of a term and as the head of said organization you use it to describe the said organization, that is a CONTRADICTION.

As I say, there are folks who will read this and agree.

There are folks who won't.

I have no control over those elements.

I simply called a shot as I saw it.

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#112395 - 04/18/17 10:43 AM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: LoneWolf78]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3975
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
If you aren't clear with your language, how can you hope to be clear in your message?

You should be taking notes son, In this I am the master atop The mountain. Challenge me if you wish.

Maybe this will clue you in. You ask if I believe that math works. I ask the converse; do you NOT believe math works? What is the converse?

Think about it.

As per your source grapes with Gilmore girl..I just don't care. Those guys just aren't relevant to me.
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#112397 - 04/18/17 11:21 AM Re: The nature of axiomatic structures [Re: Dan_Dread]
Megatron Offline
active member


Registered: 08/22/14
Posts: 859
Loc: fuckit, some kid cracked my co...
 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread
Maybe this will clue you in. You ask if I believe that math works. I ask the converse; do you NOT believe math works? What is the converse?


I have no idea what his point was (actually I do, but who cares), and it doesn't matter. You raise an extremely interesting point/angle regarding the hierarchy of certainty. Let's play a game . . .

Call it Fill in the Blank. I'm going to give you something really simple, try to solve it:

__________________ is absolutely certain; beyond any and all doubt.

Fill in the blank. You can use as many characters as you wish, but 140 might be too many.

My answer?
Warning, Spoiler:
Nothing.
Simple, huh?

Actually, no. One might vector any number of things as axiomatic or indefeasible within a worldview. Not the least of which would be one's own ability to make said judgements. Bootstraps? But of course . . .


Edited by Megatron (04/18/17 11:23 AM)
Edit Reason: Yeah, I used the mighty Semicolon, jealous?.
_________________________
You can't beat me, I'm a fucking Transformer (TM), dude.

Oh, and I spell everything right.

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#112398 - 04/18/17 12:06 PM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: LoneWolf78]
SIN3 Offline
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Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 7188
Loc: Virginia
 Originally Posted By: LW
My reason for posting this is quite simple: To call bullshit where it pertains to Satanism.


Here's the thing. We each speak in split-tongues as it serves our purposes. If it wasn't working out for Peter, you'd expect him to be fairly thin, malnourished and fretting over a wage job. But he isn't.
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#112401 - 04/18/17 01:05 PM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: LoneWolf78]
CanisMachina42 Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/10/13
Posts: 1348
Loc: CA
 Quote:
My reason is very simple:

It is to call bullshit.

Satanism is not Atheism.
 


I think of this sort of like the trope in the movies when the character catches the other in a lie by getting them to answer to a known falsehood.

Perhaps I can get them to all to do dogmatic rituals and light candles like it's fucking Santeria?

 Quote:

If it were just that there would have been no use for half of TSB, the entire TSR, or parts of The Satanic Witch.


Or Avon wouldn't publish a 40 page book, and he kinda took it from there.

Years later, there's devout "followers" using TSB as a stand in for the non-Satanic Bible tapping all the same belief/faith centers.

So when people parrot Gilmore parroting Anton:

 Originally Posted By: Peter Gilmore

So, to be clear, Satanism is a carnal, not a spiritual, religion, and it is not a form of occultism. It is an atheist, materialist philosophy that promotes individualism, rational self-interest and the celebration of the one life we have.


You go to church on Friday instead. That there are even discussions treating LHP expression as an exoteric dogmatic entity to be put alongside other "faiths" is ironic.
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