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#112403 - 04/18/17 01:57 PM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: Dan_Dread]
LoneWolf78 Offline
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Registered: 05/21/14
Posts: 431
 Originally Posted By: Dan Dread

You should be taking notes son, In this I am the master atop The mountain. Challenge me if you wish.


Ok, a bit of flare I like it.

 Originally Posted By: Dan Dread
As per your source grapes with Gilmore girl..I just don't care. Those guys just aren't relevant to me.


Source grapes?

 Originally Posted By: Dan-Dread
If you aren't clear with your language, how can you hope to be clear in your message?


Tsk tsk. All is good though.

Were I to be a believer, I would take it at it's face value and believe that you meant "source grapes" exactly as you wrote it and ask no other question.

Were I to be a disbeliever, I would believe that you did not mean "source grapes".

So, how can I prove that you meant it as you wrote it? How can I prove that you didn't? I can't.

I lack knowledge which is to say that I am skeptical but I will await your answer. Even when you give me an answer, of course, there could still be doubt, and depending on my understanding of the information, I could also be wrong. Hence, our little math game.

Your argument presents a false dichotomy which is either one is a theist or an Atheist.

Both are absolutes.

I am saying that skepticism is the in-between.

As our friend Megatron says, nothing is absolute. \:\)

As Sin indicates Peter is fat so his double speak works for him. \:D

CanisMachina42, Either I agree with you or you got what I was saying all along. ;\)





Edited by LoneWolf78 (04/18/17 02:01 PM)

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#112407 - 04/18/17 02:14 PM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: LoneWolf78]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3946
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
My autocorrect likes to source grapes. I don't ask it who it's source is, as long as they are green and crispy.

You still don't seem to be getting it. You are using the word belief to mean faith, which is a specific type of belief. A belief is, again, any and all propositions you hold to be true.

Knowledge, is, again, justified true belief. That is just what the word means in epistemology, because all other alternatives are highly problematic and fold under scrutiny. Do you have an alternate definition that can hold its own? If so you'll likely be famous soon.

Not Charlie Sheen famous, but philosophy nerds at the very least will know your name.

As for your claim of a false dichotomy, you are again mistaken. One is either a Theist(holds the premise 'deities' exist as true), or one is not(does not hold the premise 'deities exist' as true). There are no other alternatives. If you are skeptical of that premise, then you do not hold it as true.
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#112410 - 04/18/17 03:21 PM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: LoneWolf78]
SIN3 Offline
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Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 7064
Loc: Virginia
Let me ask you this, if Satanism isn't a celebration of life, indulgence without guilt, materialism and all the carnal pleasures that comes with it - what the hell is it? Why would Anton even use Satan as a way to poke his finger in the eye of Christianity's influence over culture?

If the Devil represents everything that is carnal and sinful, we that embrace it are what? People that believe in imaginary boogeymen?

C'mon, it's so rudimentary that I find it difficult to take these conversations serious.


I wanted to add, that if you DO believe in the devil, I don't think Anton would stand in your way. He may have opinions about it. He may even find your zeal admirable, if you do it with style and still maintain a sense about you. The idea isn't to try to win over the approval of others anyway, the idea is to grab life by the balls and take IT for a ride. So if you're going to be a believer, be one and stop trying to get people into your ride. You don't need a co-pilot for that sort of thing. Even if you manage to hang out with a few people that believe as you do, what does that do for you aside help you make friends that share your beliefs?


Edited by SIN3 (04/18/17 03:25 PM)
Edit Reason: addendum
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#112413 - 04/18/17 03:45 PM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: SIN3]
LoneWolf78 Offline
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Registered: 05/21/14
Posts: 431
I am not sure why you seem to be itching for an argument, but as far as your remarks go, there are none really to be found.

 Quote:
Let me ask you this, if Satanism isn't a celebration of life, indulgence without guilt, materialism and all the carnal pleasures that comes with it - what the hell is it? Why would Anton even use Satan as a way to poke his finger in the eye of Christianity's influence over culture?


Agreed.

 Quote:

If the Devil represents everything that is carnal and sinful, we that embrace it are what? People that believe in imaginary boogeymen?


Not at all.

You can certainly enjoy half of Satanism without ever venturing over to the other half involving Magic and Ritual. Though it would be kind of like Superman without the kryptonite.

 Quote:
So if you're going to be a believer, be one and stop trying to get people into your ride.


You have missed my point all along. My point has been and so far remains that disbelief is a belief.

I side with doubt and knowledge over belief.

So let me ask you this:

SIN, do you think that Satanism is the same thing as Atheism?

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#112414 - 04/18/17 03:57 PM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: Dan_Dread]
LoneWolf78 Offline
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Registered: 05/21/14
Posts: 431
 Quote:
One is either a Theist(holds the premise 'deities' exist as true), or one is not(does not hold the premise 'deities exist' as true). There are no other alternatives. If you are skeptical of that premise, then you do not hold it as true.


I disagree on this point.

You seem to be dealing in absolutes.

I am not.

I am saying that there is an in-between where you can keep an opened mind and explore.

To an extent I can see your point about Atheists not discarding everything. For example, I would find many scientists to be Atheist from a religious standpoint. However, there are many believers in science who drive facts to fit the theory that muddy the waters of true science which is doubt and exploration.

Getting back to religion though, I would pose the same question to you that I have to SIN. Do you think that Atheism and Satanism are the same thing? Why or why not?

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#112416 - 04/18/17 05:57 PM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: LoneWolf78]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3946
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Well, I guess you can use whatever words you want to mean whatever you want, and just disagree with points made and points supported just because you feel like it with no supporting argument, but it leaves you in a pretty weak position. Whatever, I'm not going to hold your hand.

As per your question..is that really a serious question? I mean, maybe if you are redefining both of those words to mean something else(which does actually seem to be the case) that might be a coherent question, but as it stands you are pretty much asking if waffles and apples are both types of tree.

Atheism is merely the state of not believing in any deities, despite what you keep insisting.

Satanism has nothing whatsoever to do with whether you believe in deities or not.

Seriously, you should just log out of 600C for a week and brush up on your rhetorical skills, as it stands you are really bad at this.


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#112417 - 04/18/17 06:10 PM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: Dan_Dread]
LoneWolf78 Offline
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Registered: 05/21/14
Posts: 431
 Quote:
Atheism is merely the state of not believing in any deities, despite what you keep insisting.

Satanism has nothing whatsoever to do with whether you believe in deities or not.


I don't know why you have such a problem with my correctly stating that Atheism is a disbelief. Beyond that I don't see where we disagree on this term.

No less, you and I also agree that Atheism and Satanism are not the same thing, which is what I have been saying since the beginning of this post.

So what exactly is it that you are arguing against?

BTW, as for insults, etc. I know you have a bombastic name and a mean looking avatar. But, seriously, c'mon. This is cyberspace it just seems silly to try to flex your muscles.

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#112420 - 04/18/17 09:05 PM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: LoneWolf78]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3946
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
I see bullshit, I exterminate it. It's what I do.

You laid out a buffet of naked assertions, which I soundly dissected and left laying on the table.

And I haven't even touched your posit that Atheism is a belief system, which it patently isn't. Maybe later
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#112421 - 04/18/17 10:15 PM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: Dan_Dread]
LoneWolf78 Offline
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Registered: 05/21/14
Posts: 431
 Quote:
I see bullshit, I exterminate it. It's what I do.

You laid out a buffet of naked assertions, which I soundly dissected and left laying on the table.


Not true.

Every term that I put out I defined by way of Merriam Webster dictionary. In fact, I copied and pasted the multiple definitions for each word.

You wish to strictly apply terms as they are defined by parts of Epistemology. As long as you can do that then you can stay in your narrative.

However, Epistemology is only one branch, but it isn't the entire tree.

 Originally Posted By: Dan Dread
We can only ever ‘know’ what we experience, but you are right when you say that we all interpret experience through a subjective lense. All we can know for sure is how these things effect us personally. I


I agree with that.

As far as Atheism goes, the question really is, who cares?

Satanists are Satanists regardless of if there is a man in sandals with a long white beard in the sky. Really we haven't seen any evidence that there is such a god to behave as though there is.

Which is why, I guess you could say, I am confused why so many self professed Satanists seem so hung up on shying away from the term Satanist and replace it with the term Atheist. If you don't feel comfortable using a term when talking to others (don't even get me started on if you bought the high priesthood for an organization called The Church of Satan), then why even bother? Why not stick to the "safe space"?

Mind you, I am not trying to come up with a better way or save Satanism. It is simply something that makes me curious.

IMO, I just think if you are going to call yourself something, then do it, don't pussy foot around in word soup to make apologies for it. (Hence my OP).

 Originally Posted By: Dan Dread
And I haven't even touched your posit that atheism is a belief system, which it patently isn't. Maybe later


Fair enough. To keep it simple, my point is that disbelief is belief.

'Til next time.

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#112424 - 04/18/17 10:57 PM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: LoneWolf78]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3946
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
 Quote:

Every term that I put out I defined by way of Merriam Webster dictionary. In fact, I copied and pasted the multiple definitions for each word.


Yes, you did, which made it all the more comical when you proceeded to use the words Atheist, belief, and knowledge in the creative ways that you did.

Epistemology isn't one branch of some unknown lonely tree somewhere(since you don't seem to know what that means either), it is the philosophy of what can be known, and how things can be known. Much like science, everything there is up for scrutiny and replacement.

Or, since you like copypasta, this;

e·pis·te·mol·o·gy
əˌpistəˈmäləjē/
noun PHILOSOPHY
the theory of knowledge, especially with regard to its methods, validity, and scope. Epistemology is the investigation of what distinguishes justified belief from opinion.

Yes, I am the language police. Yet the limits of ones language mean the limits of ones world..;)
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#112436 - 04/19/17 12:29 PM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: LoneWolf78]
SIN3 Offline
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Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 7064
Loc: Virginia
 Originally Posted By: LoneWolf78
I am not sure why you seem to be itching for an argument,


That's just your perception. I'm not responsible for it.

 Quote:
You have missed my point all along. My point has been and so far remains that disbelief is a belief.


No I haven't. I'm directly challenging your logical fallacy. I'm confrontational, arguing implies that one of us will come out the winner. I'm not trying to win you over to my side. I'm confronting your obvious misstep here. Take it as a challenge to think on it more critically rather arguing for its sake alone.

 Quote:

I side with doubt and knowledge over belief.


You can't expect me to believe in something that lacks evidence to support it, even a UPG requires some catalyst. If the experience was compelling enough, it would spark some sort of belief (even if only a blind one). A dis-belief is not a belief.


 Quote:
So let me ask you this:

SIN, do you think that Satanism is the same thing as Atheism?


Atheism is a form of Satanic practice. If the norm were all Devil Worship, my lack of Devil Worship is a Satanic Act.

Caprice?
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#112439 - 04/19/17 03:25 PM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: SIN3]
LoneWolf78 Offline
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Registered: 05/21/14
Posts: 431
 Quote:
Atheism is a form of Satanic practice.


For the most part agreed. I would say that is a tool that Satanists can use, but it is certainly not the definition of Satanism.

As for the rest, you enjoy reading, so here are a couple of things that you may find of interest.

here and here.

Beyond that, the debate on the topic of disbelief being a belief seems to be ongoing in Atheist communities. So far, based on what I have seen, when someone says that disbelief isn't a belief, my response is, that I doubt it. I could be wrong, that is fine by me. I am not concerned with Atheism. I am a Satanist.

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#112440 - 04/19/17 03:38 PM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: Dan_Dread]
LoneWolf78 Offline
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Registered: 05/21/14
Posts: 431
 Quote:
Epistemology isn't one branch of some unknown lonely tree somewhere(since you don't seem to know what that means either), it is the philosophy of what can be known, and how things can be known.


I understand that.

What I am saying is that philosophy is the tree. One of the branches of that tree is Epistemology. Which, as you say, deals in what can be known and how things can be known. The other branch of that tree is Ontology, another is Methodology.

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#112441 - 04/19/17 04:16 PM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: LoneWolf78]
SIN3 Offline
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Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 7064
Loc: Virginia
 Originally Posted By: LoneWolf78
 Quote:
Atheism is a form of Satanic practice.


For the most part agreed. I would say that is a tool that Satanists can use, but it is certainly not the definition of Satanism.


In a society that is permeated with beliefs in the Supernatural, whether gods, unicorns or delusions of grandeur (and I do mean "Magick"), it's the epitome of it. A lack of belief in gods, is the -ism part. Words mean things, no matter how much effort is put forth to change them, the commonly held understanding of it remains. That's language. That's how language operates. Words are just carriers, what is being carried is meaning. If you don't know what I mean when I say 'Satanism', it accounts for beating this corpse to death on the daily here. It was never meant for the masses, let them believe we worship the devil. That's useful. As for those that claim the title Satanist, you'd be hard-pressed to convince us it means something else. This is why the so-called 'versions' are shat upon because it's ludicrous. Satanism is just Satanism. not Theistic-Satanism, Spiritual-Satanism, Luciferic-Satanism, et. al. It's unnecessary.

 Quote:
Beyond that, the debate on the topic of disbelief being a belief seems to be ongoing in atheist communities.
Because people lack understanding and are mostly idiots.

 Quote:
So far, based on what I have seen, when someone says that disbelief isn't a belief, my response is, that I doubt it.


You haven't proven that a dis-belief, is a belief. I somewhat understand where you're coming from though. Say, I'm a flat-earther and I hold a disbelief in the world being spherical. I hold beliefs in a flat earth but my disbelief still isn't a belief. Only the beliefs I hold in a flat earth are. It only seems confusing but it's really simple.

 Quote:
I could be wrong, that is fine by me. I am not concerned with atheism. I am a Satanist.


And I'm not concerned with your beliefs. I am only concerned with how people perceive these things. It's all ammo to me.
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#112443 - 04/19/17 05:07 PM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: SIN3]
LoneWolf78 Offline
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Registered: 05/21/14
Posts: 431
 Quote:
This is why the so-called 'versions' are shat upon because it's ludicrous. Satanism is just Satanism. not Theistic-Satanism, Spiritual-Satanism, Luciferic-Satanism, et. al. It's unnecessary.


Really?

Really?!!

Ok, here we go:

[quote:SIN3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSR6TPSNcOk

I've explored all kinds of Satanism. (25:23)/

I want to make a point about Satanism. I feel very strongly about this because that it exists. There is not one form of Satanism. This is our form of Satanism. This is our form of Satanism. We seem to be on the same point that it is very atheistic and we don't acknowledge deities, however, there are other forms of Satanism that do. There's tons of them. Ya know, I'm on paganspace.net go to paganspace.net and I have a thread Satanism for dummies that you would love it links you to other forms of Satanism it has a plethora of information, seriously educate yourselves because this is our Satanism there are TONS of kinds of Satanism. (45:28)

I think it is so limiting to think that way (that there is only one type of Satanism) (49:38) [/quote]

So, tell me to you still feel strongly about the "TONS of kinds of Satanism that there are or that "Satanism is just Satanism. not Theistic-Satanism, Spiritual-Satanism, Luciferic-Satanism, et. al. It's unnecessary?"

Or

Is it that split tongue thing that you were talking about?


Edited by LoneWolf78 (04/19/17 05:08 PM)

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