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#113043 - 06/05/17 08:39 PM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: samowens84]
Bacchus Offline
pledge


Registered: 09/08/16
Posts: 58
 Originally Posted By: samowens84
I personally dont do well with group dynamics, and have never searched for any "right group." I hen picked a few individuals off the internet, and a couple in the real world. This way Im the center, and no one can exclude me from it. Joining an organization puts that power squarely in the hands of an authority figure. And I dont need them to sort out who is worthwhile and who isnt. Ive learned to usually discriminate on my own who to include. Not that meeting new people doesnt includes unforseen risk. Like you said, no matter how many precautions taken...


That's about how I reason as well in practice. I doubt I'll be joining any group soon but If I ever change my mind CoS will be my first choice since they seem to be least cryptic and since I have already noticed a number of people affiliated with them that seem sensible.

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#113044 - 06/05/17 08:54 PM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: Bacchus]
samowens84 Offline
member


Registered: 09/29/16
Posts: 437
 Originally Posted By: Bacchus
 Originally Posted By: samowens84
I personally dont do well with group dynamics, and have never searched for any "right group." I hen picked a few individuals off the internet, and a couple in the real world. This way Im the center, and no one can exclude me from it. Joining an organization puts that power squarely in the hands of an authority figure. And I dont need them to sort out who is worthwhile and who isnt. Ive learned to usually discriminate on my own who to include. Not that meeting new people doesnt includes unforseen risk. Like you said, no matter how many precautions taken...


That's about how I reason as well in practice. I doubt I'll be joining any group soon but If I ever change my mind CoS will be my first choice since they seem to be least cryptic and since I have already noticed a number of people affiliated with them that seem sensible.


Lol so what was that bullshit about "courage" if you havent already joined? Are you scared and trying to talk yourself into it? Are you that "scared frightened animal?" ;\)


Edited by samowens84 (06/05/17 08:56 PM)

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#113046 - 06/05/17 09:18 PM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: samowens84]
Bacchus Offline
pledge


Registered: 09/08/16
Posts: 58
 Originally Posted By: samowens84
Lol so what was that bullshit about "courage" if you havent already joined? Are you scared and trying to talk yourself into it? Are you that "scared frightened animal?" ;\)


Courage not the absence of fear or bravado but rather resistance to fear, mastery of fear. The reason why I haven't joined has nothing to do with taking into consideration all the unlikely but still possible risks (like theocratic government taking over and purging all non-Christians).

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#113048 - 06/05/17 09:25 PM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: Bacchus]
Creatura Noptii Offline
active member


Registered: 01/02/16
Posts: 950
Loc: Oregon
You give yourself too much credit.

If you are afraid of shit like that you have nothing at all to do with Satanism. Go suck the dick of Baphomet at the Satanic temple like all the others.

I've worn a satanic symbol at work, told people I'm a Satanist and you know something?

No fucks given. Not by them, or me.

If people don't like that I'm a Satanist, big fucking deal. If one were to get fired over it they'd probably have ground to sue for religious discrimination, as I'm pretty sure Satanism is recognized as an official religion in quite a few Western societies.

More money, and more stupid people to one-up and fuck with.

Get over yourself, or continue on like a bitch.


Edited by Creatura Noptii (06/05/17 09:34 PM)
_________________________
https://youtu.be/8nW-IPrzM1g

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#113049 - 06/05/17 11:02 PM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: Bacchus]
samowens84 Offline
member


Registered: 09/29/16
Posts: 437
 Originally Posted By: Bacchus
 Originally Posted By: samowens84
Lol so what was that bullshit about "courage" if you havent already joined? Are you scared and trying to talk yourself into it? Are you that "scared frightened animal?" ;\)


Courage not the absence of fear or bravado but rather resistance to fear, mastery of fear. The reason why I haven't joined has nothing to do with taking into consideration all the unlikely but still possible risks (like theocratic government taking over and purging all non-Christians).


Courage isnt courage without action. And youre a long way from "mastery." Youre still just a slave.

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#113050 - 06/05/17 11:03 PM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: Creatura Noptii]
Cyrus Offline
stranger


Registered: 05/05/17
Posts: 20
Loc: Portland, OR
 Originally Posted By: Bacchus
There's nothing wrong about sectarianism provided it's your sort of sectarianism. Otherwise what's the point of wasting your time with people you don't share any common affinities?

Learning, growing as a person, refining coarse ideas, reflecting on areas only noticed by someone with a different perspective, etc. Also, I think one should be careful about assuming (or deciding prematurely) that any given person or group of people really does not share any common affinities with you. Sure you can make up extreme cases like a militant Islamist and a militant Zionist, how it would be unlikely for them to enjoy spending time together, so why bother. But not only have many of us seen (or lived) cases of supposed enemies learning to work together or even become friends, but more relevantly most real-life interactions are not such caricature extremes. Especially if the other person does explicitly share one OBVIOUS common affinity. All you'd be doing is blowing up some minor differences into an all-or-nothing fantasy. That is IMO one of the worst common traits of most established religions.

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#113051 - 06/05/17 11:21 PM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: Creatura Noptii]
Cyrus Offline
stranger


Registered: 05/05/17
Posts: 20
Loc: Portland, OR
 Originally Posted By: Bacchus
...taking into consideration all the unlikely but still possible risks (like theocratic government taking over and purging all non-Christians).

 Originally Posted By: Creatura Noptii
You give yourself too much credit.

If you are afraid of shit like that you have nothing at all to do with Satanism. Go suck the dick of Baphomet at the Satanic temple like all the others.

Agreed with the first part--but I have to point out that TST has done more in actual, concrete work to mitigate the possibility of theocratic government abuse than any other Satanic organization. That might not be as exciting as an individual declaring that they can publicly signify whatever they want with zero fear; but there are many countries and communities where people are tortured, killed, "disappeared", and dispossessed for not conforming to the local theocratic law. They have real reason to fear, and you in your exquisite safety do not. We in somewhat freer countries have the luxury of being defiant without much reprisal--but only due to the rule of law being checked by the separation of church and state, which is reinforced by the precedents set in legal cases. If there are any other Satanic -or even "faux" or "supposedly" Satanic- groups doing this sort of work that I don't know about, I'd love to hear it.

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#113052 - 06/05/17 11:43 PM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: Bacchus]
LoneWolf78 Offline
member


Registered: 05/21/14
Posts: 435
 Originally Posted By: Bacchus
What may seem to the unthinking or the disgruntled as some sort of "corporate tyranny" of Gilmore or CoS is in fact a useful mechanism to protect LaVey's doctrines and practices from corruption, infiltration and takeover by various packs and their own fucking ideas and angles.


You're joking, right?

Gilmore has back-peddled nearly anything that LaVey said that could be considered slightly controversial. This would include Satanism. Notice how he has been fading it out in favor of the more socially acceptable Atheism?

 Originally Posted By: Bacchus
You wouldn't want to turn CoS into some anemic "spirituality" club, would you? Or into just another socially engaged movement for the "great unwashed"?


As opposed to what? Gilmore's Atheist, yet faithful followers? Gosh dang your right, I forgot Satanism was a knitting club managed by geeks and boy-scouts.


 Originally Posted By: Bacchus
But it takes a CHOICE (an act of a free man) to join the CoS. Instead to hide in a closet like a frightened animal it takes a COURAGE to join what is perhaps the only group that openly stands for egoism in a world that demands self-sacrifice and obedience.


Ok, now this one is just too goddamned funny! Here is a recent take on tucking in your Baphomet:

 Originally Posted By: Elizabeth Salmone
The Purposeful Art of Tucking the Baphomet
by Satanist Elizabeth Salome
an article for The Black Flame—March, LI A.S.
…the real Satanist is not quite so easily recognized as such. - Anton LaVey
Each member of the Church of Satan is unique, and so the comfort level about living as an open Satanist is different for each of us. For me personally, I am not in a position to publicly vocalize my affiliation with the Church of Satan. Even now, 50 years after the Church was founded, a certain level of “Satanic Panic” is still very real. It is a sad truth, but it is a truth.
I have many acquaintances in my everyday world. Personally and professionally, I do enjoy my own brand of popularity. I’m known for being the offbeat, sarcastic, charming lady that I am, and for being a lover of the arts and the darker corners of life. I suppose that like-minded individuals in open spaces might be able to sniff me out for the LHP'er that I am.
That being said, I work in a highly competitive market, and I rely heavily on both my personality and my Lesser Magic to set me apart from my peers. I also bring in clients largely by word of mouth referral. Take those two pieces of the puzzle and add in the fact that I grew up within the Catholic School system, and that many of my repeat clients are people that I have known since then, and you have a very good reason to keep my membership with the Church under wraps. I would go so far to say that 95% of my clients are religious in some way or another.
Why do I care if they know and/or accept my Satanic Self or not? Simply put, money. It behooves me financially to play a certain “role.” Now, I am not saying that I (or that you should) run around pretending to be a Christian; my family and close friends know that I am an Atheist. I’m just saying that I smile and nod, and collect my money. I don’t want just that 5% of non-religious revenue—I want it all, by whatever means necessary.
I admit that I struggled for quite some time with the notion that I might not be a worthy or productive Satanist if I was not “out of the closet.” (A struggle admittedly exacerbated by knowing some extremely powerful, extremely vocal Satanists.) I think perhaps that internal battle may be a natural part of the process for many people after their initial introduction to the Church of Satan. For me, I worried about whether or not I was able to make my Church proud if I could not openly speak about my affiliation, much less wear a shiny, undeniable Baphomet.
The truth is that I can. And so can you. There are many great members, both Active and Registered, who keep their affiliation private. Being a “good” Satanist is not about what we wear, how loud we shout “Hail Satan!”, or what we say in a group or message board online. It’s about who we are and how we LIVE. It’s about being a productive member of society. About “living deep and sucking out all the marrow of life.“ About being Epicurean Ladies and Gentleman who strive for personal happiness and growth, moving ever forward in our passions and pursuits.
Even though I am a Witch in the broom closet, I know that I am still a damned good Satanist. If you align yourself with the tenets of the Church of Satan and strive to be your very best in all that you do, you are too, even if you’re not shouting “Hail Satan!” from the rooftop.


Perhaps your late on the bus, but the CoS nearly encourages members to hide in the closet from Gilmore all of the way down.

Here is the thing Bacchus:

It takes FAITH to believe whatever any religious leader tells you.

It is easy to follow the herd lock step.

It takes COURAGE to question all things especially what is considered unquestionable by so-called leaders.

Moreover it takes both COURAGE and HONESTY for leaders of such groups to put themselves up for scrutiny and question.

Satanism isn't for the faithful.

Apply that to the CoS and then come back and talk about courage and bravery.

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#113054 - 06/06/17 09:14 AM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: Cyrus]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3975
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
 Quote:
TST has done more in actual, concrete work to mitigate the possibility of theocratic government abuse than any other Satanic organization.


..and their good guy badges are in the mail, don't you worry.
_________________________



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#113061 - 06/06/17 12:01 PM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: Dan_Dread]
Creatura Noptii Offline
active member


Registered: 01/02/16
Posts: 950
Loc: Oregon
 Quote:
there are many countries and communities

So go to those. Spread the good word where most needed, as it were. Those Christians at least know how to leave their little shell. Your organization beats a dead horse. Freedom of religious practice came long before your temple, as did Satanism.

In any case, I'm sure their milk and cookies are all worth it on good Sundays.

Nothing new.
_________________________
https://youtu.be/8nW-IPrzM1g

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#113071 - 06/06/17 06:01 PM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: LoneWolf78]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2711
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: LoneWolf78
In this news essay Peter Gilmore explains why that the CoS drifts further from Satanism as it was defined by Anton LaVey.

The Gilmoronic "Church of Satan" has been neither a church nor acknowledging of Satan since 1975, when Anton LaVey disavowed both:

 Originally Posted By: Anton LaVey, 24 hours before 6/21/75
I have freely admitted that I assumed my office of High Priest because at the time there was no one else who did. The titles “Infernal Empire”, “Exarch of Hell”, etc. are symbolic, not literal.

Not exactly ...

 Originally Posted By: Anton LaVey, Satanis, 1968
I’m in league with the Devil as much as any mortal can possibly be.

 Originally Posted By: Anton LaVey, The Cloven Hoof, 3/1970
And what do they do, now that it is safe to use His Great Infernal Name? They deny Him! They have the opportunity to cast the very creed of defamation, which killed their brothers and sisters of the past - cast that creed before the world in triumphal mockery of its age of unreason! But no! They do not thrust the bifid barb of Satan aloft and shout, “He has triumphed!” His Art and Works which brought men to the rack and thumbscrew, can now be learned in safety! But No! He is denied! Denied by those who cry up His Art and ply His Work!

Let it be known that every man who delves into the Arts of Darkness must give the Devil and His Children the due their years of infamy deserve! Satan’s Name will not be denied! Let no man shun or mock His Name who plays His winning game, or Despair, Depletion, and Destruction await!

As indeed followed. As for the Church of Satan, it had been incorporated as a non-profit church in California in 1971. Post-1975 Anton discarded this, asserting it to be a business partnership between his wife Diane and himself. Once Sharon "Blanche Barton" Densley had established herself at 6114 in Diane's place, Diane sued Anton in Superior Court to dissolve the "partnership".

 Originally Posted By: Judge Ollie Marie-Victoire, Supplemental order after trial, Case #891863, 10/28/91
A receiver will be appointed by the court, at defendant’s expense, to prepare an accounting and inventory of all partnership assets, and upon completion of such accounting a dissolution of the partnership will occur and all partnership assets will be divided 50-50 between the parties.

Anton delayed, but did not vacate this court order by filing personal bankruptcy, in which he now asserted under oath that the "Church of Satan" was nothing more than his personal business:

 Originally Posted By: Anton LaVey, Declaration, Chapter 11 Case #91-34251, April 22, 1992
My income derives from my operation as a sole proprietor known as the Church of Satan and from royalties from the sales of my books.

Hence whatever Peter Gilmore advertises his own business to be, it has never had anything to do with Satan or His Church.

[Complete documents, references, & attributions in my The Church of Satan.]
_________________________
Michael A. Aquino

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#113076 - 06/06/17 09:59 PM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
LoneWolf78 Offline
member


Registered: 05/21/14
Posts: 435
Exactly Dr. Aquino. I guess that my original intention for the OP was because I know that every now and then a new comer hops on here. While the past has been well documented by yourself, Gilmore still continues to show why that his business is neither a church or has anything to do with Satan as you say.

What really gets me is how that anyone could call themselves a Satanist and have faith in....well in anything.

When it comes to cults of personality, I am inclined to agree with Nikolas and Zeena Schreck on one hand:

 Originally Posted By: Demons of The Flesh
If there is an appropriate left-hand path attitude to be taken with the famous and infamous sex-magical teachers of the past, it is surely irreverence, not pious sanctification. In fact, in the process of transforming yourself from human to divine consciousness through erotic initiation, a
healthy irreverence directed at your own pretensions is mandatory.


For that matter, read the entire Second Book of Satan in TSB and apply it towards the current CoS.

When it comes to an Anton LaVey fan clubhere is a new video with the happy Gilmore's and I notice that they still haven't managed to get out from under your shadow Dr. Aquino. In fact, from what I can gather they are still up in a bundle because you have not recognized Gilmore as a High Priest.

I also agree with Don Webb,

 Originally Posted By: The Mysteries of The Temple of Set
The Temple began with a handful of people who broke away from the Church of Satan. Almost anyone would have imagined this small group in California to have the average fate of any cult. It would center on a leader, immerse itself in the art of gaining as many members as possible, dumb down it's teachings, and eventually factionalize again into other small groups, and have no effect on the occult world except for generating some peculiar artifacts on ebay.


Sadly, this is nearly prophetic when one considers this podcast episode of The Devil You Know. Talk about dumbing down. More like special ed class at it's finest. (Though anyone who listens to or watches John "Shawsome" can see that this is befitting. Anytime I see him he looks as though he is lost in space and clueless.) Hell, most of the episode is devoted to who should sell what trinkets on ebay and when that they should. Might as well take the current CoS to Pawnstars I'm sure that Chumley would entertain them. \:D

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#113080 - 06/07/17 02:32 AM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: Creatura Noptii]
Cyrus Offline
stranger


Registered: 05/05/17
Posts: 20
Loc: Portland, OR
 Originally Posted By: Creatura Noptii
Freedom of religious practice came long before your temple

And you do not see those freedoms being eroded and robbed right in front of our eyes by the theocratic shitbags currently in office? Christian curricula taught openly in schools, women's health care defunded for religious reasons, the health of our kids sold out on the basis of dominionism, etc. Perhaps you think if those actions don't affect you directly, they don't affect anyone else? Perhaps you think this is not a slippery slope?
 Originally Posted By: Creatura Noptii
as did Satanism.

No disagreement there--but so what? Anton made it official in '69, but we've just seen posts here clearly showing why Anton's gig was not the last word on the subject, and many of us like to claim that Satanism existed long before him anyway.

TST never once claimed to be first, original, or "new". They set out an agenda, and proceeded to follow it; they don't claim authorship, they just do the work. Give them a few decades, and they'll be considered just as "real" as these other self-help book vendors that have founded churches in the last 40 years.

Since it makes you feel good to put them down, stick to arguing that they're just SJW's--at least that claim makes sense.

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#113081 - 06/07/17 03:00 AM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: LoneWolf78]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2711
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: LoneWolf78
Sadly, this is nearly prophetic when one considers this podcast episode of The Devil You Know.

I endured only a couple of minutes of this; I gather it was an argument about selling a Gilmore conclave souvenir coin on eBay?

As an historical trivia aside, I came up with the idea of calling the Church's regional gatherings "conclaves". The LaVeys and I were kicking around some names prior to the 1st Eastern in Centerville, Ohio 1971. I had just finished a term as National Commander of the Eagle Scout Honor Society, the Knights of Dunamis, and we used the term "conclave", so I suggested that. We thought it was a bit cute to borrow from the BSA. ;\)

The Church held either 2 or 3 Eastern and 1 Western conclave before it shut down. We were going to shoot for a 1st International in 1975 in Toronto; I'd negotiated with an elegant old castle - Casa Loma, I think its name was. It had a great pipe organ, so would have been glorious for everyone to hear Anton play live [Diane and I were going to record it]. Also I was friends with a geek from Raytheon in Santa Barbara, and he was going to come up with a triangulated laser projector (very avant in those days). Anton was going to invoke Satan in the main ritual, and suddenly He was going to materialize as a giant 3D hologram, We were taking bets on how many members were going to say "Cool!" vs. bolting for the door. \:D

The Temple of Set has had 36 Internationals to date - all over the world from Hawaii to Helsinki and Prague. I've lost count of the regionals and Euroclaves. We don't pass out souvenir coins, however. \:\(

Re the podcast: I don't mind anyone's having a good time at his comfort level. It's just that this one was pretty knuckle-dragging, including for the original Church past its first couple of years. As recounted in COS, Anton was emphatic about being ever more selective, especially for the Priesthood:

 Originally Posted By: Letter, Anton LaVey to M. Aquino 1/6/72
... Just how does one state the following bits of everyday logic?

Every candidate for the Priesthood must serve an apprenticeship at the Central Grotto, during which his behavior is observed under various conditions.

Seminarial preparations and qualification are rigorous for those attempting to enter the priesthood of any other established religion, so why should they not be equally rigid in the Church of Satan? Why should it be easier to become a Priest of Satan than it is to become a Catholic priest, a Jewish rabbi, or a Methodist minister, when a Priest of Satan actually requires a great deal more wisdom, considering his terrestrial commitment? How do we tell them that initiative is wonderful, but that it can never take the place of ability, and that a proficiency in the latter quality will surely have been made manifest in their pre-III° application activities?

Mike, we are dealing with grown-up little boys who wish to be big shots and pathetically think that the rules of the game (verifiable resumés, credit checks, occupational, residential, familial, and emotional stability) do not apply here, but that the passing of a test is all that matters. They simply cannot divorce themselves from the climate of the childhood vacant lot fraternity, though outside the Church they accept the rules of the game from prospective employers, loan companies, etc. without question.

Maybe I’m wrong, but I think a man who bears the portentous title of Priest of Mendes should be able to buy a ticket to San Francisco [not hitchhike], check in at a decent hotel [without depending on the C.G. staff to find him one!], and show other examples of worldly resourcefulness, such as spelling gud, maybe taking the High Priest and High Priestess out for a hot dog, and additional intellectual feats and social graces.

I was once astounded at the effrontery of many aspirants to the Priesthood; now I have simply become inured to such copious amounts of cheekiness. Clearly what our problem children of the Church lack most is introspection and genuine self-evaluation. I base my standards of tact, protocol, and true respect for those I feel deserve it on the very selfish premise that “it’s the only way I ever got anywhere!”

Perhaps I have read too many Horatio Alger novels, but in this epic, as in all, the Devil is a gentleman who knows how to say “sir”, address a fellow as “mister” even if the man’s a garbage man (sanitation engineer), praise others without choking on the words, and generally display the sound and secure ego for which the Prince of Darkness is noted. Contrary as it might seem to most, it takes a great deal of personal pride to be genuinely humble.

These are the things that cannot be - no, should not be - taught to our would-be Priests, for if such qualities are not inherent, the aspirant is a bad risk. These requirements for the Priesthood of Mendes, if so stated, would then combine “Yes, Virginia, there is a Santa Claus” with Emily Post. I dislike hurting anyone’s feelings, but we are well into our Fourth Phase and we’d best toughen our hides.

As I have alluded, we will drop many of our “most dedicated” by the wayside, and umbrages - both small and great - will be freely taken. What we will gain will be infinitely superior, as it has always been. I feel there is now enough of a solid foundation to establish a new and comprehensive set of Priesthood requirements, exclusive of personality traits, which can and should be observed firsthand.

So over the next three years we were, as recounted, increasingly more selective for both admission and the Priesthood. This may explain why we were all so stunned by Anton's surprise sell-out in mid-75.

Since then the Temple has maintained a very meticulous Recognition system. Generally it does its job, but - like the original Church - we have occasionally seen Setians experience "initiatory crisis", reaching a "Peter Principle" point of divinity/responsibility.

The lesson for both the old Church and the new Temple is that Satanic/Setian initiation is not for everyone; indeed for only a very few. Neither institution was/is in the least suited to be a substitute for the mainstream slave religions.

This raises the question: For non-initiate humans, what would be a good religion? I used to suggest Stoicism to the intellectuals, and AMORC for the "occultists" [on the assumption that there they could have some easy-to-understand spooky fun without hurting themselves or others].

My next book, if I'm around long enough to finish it, may be a prospectus for a new "religion for the masses": getting rid of as much of the "useless lumber and wreckage" as possible. Part of the challenge is that for the last 2,000 years people have been terrorized into incomprehensible religions. Something too sensible may not be S/M-exciting enough.
_________________________
Michael A. Aquino

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#113084 - 06/07/17 09:07 AM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: Cyrus]
Bacchus Offline
pledge


Registered: 09/08/16
Posts: 58
 Originally Posted By: Cyrus
Learning, growing as a person, refining coarse ideas, reflecting on areas only noticed by someone with a different perspective, etc...TST has done more in actual, concrete work to mitigate the possibility of theocratic government abuse than any other Satanic organization.


It's good to be dogmatic about what you care about. You don't wan't to be dogmatic about anything only if you are an empty bag...a total relativist, a total skeptic, a nihilist, someone who has not yet found meaning or value in anything including him self.

What I care about is ethical hedonism and egoism because I like my cup of pleasures filled to the rim just as nature intended!

TST is about rebellion against dogmatic thought...but Epicurus was a dogmatic writer of his Canon and LaVey codified the doctrines of CoS. These people were dogmatic about their teachings! There is nothing wrong with that word.

TST is more for SJW types. They believe in "universal justice". I believe there is no such thing. Justice (morals) are determined by social contract and dependent upon time, place and situation. They are also about "universal compassion" and "empathy" (ideas promoted by "major world religions" and globalist educated political class in pursuit of new workers, soldiers and suckers).

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