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#112356 - 04/16/17 11:28 PM As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan.....
LoneWolf78 Offline
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Registered: 05/21/14
Posts: 431
In this news essay Peter Gilmore explains why that the CoS drifts further from Satanism as it was defined by Anton LaVey.

For all of the newbies and those who are old enough to (and should) know better, be aware of the Gilmore double speak as we will look at a bit further.

A prime example of this can be found in the following, where Peter says,

 Originally Posted By: Peter Gilmore
Occultism, however, refers to spiritually-oriented systems of thought that typically include supernatural aspects which are fundamental to their premises and practices.


However, let's look at this. Yes, he is correct in his use of occultism, but let's look at the word that it derives from: occult.

Let's consult our friend Merriam Webster on this:

 Originally Posted By: Merriam Webster


Definition of occult
1:not revealed :secret
deep subterranean occult jealousy — J. C. Powys

2:not easily apprehended or understood :abstruse, mysterious
occult matters like nuclear physics, radiation effects and the designing of rockets — Robert Bendiner

3:from view:concealed occult underground passages

4:of or relating to the occult
… the occult arts—astrology, palmistry, card reading … — Amy Fine Collins occult practices

5:not manifest or detectable by clinical methods alone occult carcinoma; also :not present in macroscopic amounts occult blood in a stool


He then goes on to imply the correct definition when he says,

 Originally Posted By: Peter Gilmore
We do not play "bait and switch," which would be an easy approach toward fleecing the wannabe occultnik rubes who write us daily. Instead, we are quite upfront that there are no secret inner circles or other forms of hidden teachings. Turning away those who have a mistaken perception of Satanism is our constant practice. Time is too precious to waste on those misguided "seekers."


In part, here, he may be somewhat correct. The CoS teachings have long been aboveboard and you gain absolutely no further knowledge by joining them. Likewise, there is nothing that has been built onto the structure since Anton LaVey's passing.

So, no, they don't play bait and switch when it comes to their practices. He just plays bait and switch with words and definitions to gain and keep the faithful. You really have to watch him when it comes to this trick folks. He is a fast talker.

Next up, we have this little gem:

 Originally Posted By: Peter Gilmore
However, since Satanism advocates free thought and exploration of what might be of interest to each Satanist, some of our members might choose to examine various forms of occult thought, both past and present, and this is not in any way "forbidden." It is not encouraged, either.


So, let's straight. Here is where Peter comes into create a sidestep for himself and by the same token give the gift of freedom.

Ha!

Are CoS members supposed to be grateful that Peter doesn't forbid them free thought and exploration?!

I know that a sucker is born every second, but let's get a little bit real here, ok?

No one, let me repeat, NO ONE needs an organization to grant them freedom of thought or exploration. Anyone who would depend upon such a set up is indeed a slave and hardly a Satanist.

Here is what a true Satanist should be asking: Suppose Uncle Pete did forbid independent study of various subjects. Would you continue in your studies or would you drop them all together out of fear that you may be labeled a "pseudo"?

It seems to me that a true Satanist does not seek organizational validation.

He then continues on with this theme of granting CoS members freedom by saying,

 Originally Posted By: Peter Gilmore
And the rational basis of the coherent philosophy we defined as Satanism provides an excellent platform for open, critical examination of many perspectives, whether they are rational or not. Our members are free to extract and employ whatever they find in them to be beneficial to themselves.


I call bullshit.

First off, as we have established any individual is capable of "open, critical examination". You do not need an organization for this. So, what is it again that the CoS is giving you?

That is what I like.

Lol.

The way that this stuff is worded says it all. In the design of this speech it is saying, "We already know that you don't think for yourselves, however, we will allow you to. Isn't that swell of us?"

Now, let's get to the real meat of this:

 Quote:
From the earliest days of the Church of Satan, which was founded during an “Occult Revival” in Western society, aspects of what was then swirling through popular culture were examined in our newsletter, THE CLOVEN HOOF. Some articles were humorous, tongue-in-cheek mockeries of astrology, "pyramid power" and other similar outré subjects that Dr. LaVey called “occultnik,” often meant to see who amongst the membership might be more absorbed in the “occulture” of the time rather than being interested in Satanism as a tool for life enhancement.


Am I missing something here?

One half of TSB was dedicated to Ritual Magic. The Satanic Rituals was entirely dedicated to Ritual Magic, even The Satanic Witch had some nifty little Greater Magic techniques.

If we are to accept the Gilmore Satanic History revision then we also must accept that two and a half books of Satanic cannon are merely a waste of page space and that the only reason they were written was to weed out the "occultnik".

On this premise we must also wonder how legendary stories of LaVey healing Jayne Mansfield's son, having parking spaces appear for him, and the curse of Sam Brody can be reconciled.

Finally we have Gilmore showing his hand:

 Quote:
So, to be clear, Satanism is a carnal, not a spiritual, religion, and it is not a form of occultism. It is an atheist, materialist philosophy that promotes individualism, rational self-interest and the celebration of the one life we have.


Or you could be direct and keep it simple, you know, like Anton LaVey did in The Satanic Bible:

 Originally Posted By: Anton LaVey
Satanism is not a white light religion; it is a religion of the flesh, the mundane, the carnal -all of which are ruled by Satan, the personification aeon of the Left Hand Path


Hmmmmm......I don't see the word Atheist anywhere in that quote.

I also would like to call on our old friend Merriam Webster:

 Originally Posted By: Merriam Webster


Definition of Atheism
1a: a lack of belief or a strong disbelief in the existence of a god or any gods

b: a philosophical or religious position characterized by disbelief in the existence of a god or any gods

2 archaic : godlessness especially in conduct : ungodliness, wickedness


 Originally Posted By: Merriam Webster


Definition of disbelief: the act of disbelieving : mental rejection of something as untrue.


 Originally Posted By: Merriam Webster


Definition of belief

1: a state or habit of mind in which trust or confidence is placed in some person or thing her belief in God a belief in democracy I bought the table in the belief that it was an antique. contrary to popular belief

2: something that is accepted, considered to be true, or held as an opinion : something believed an individual's religious or political beliefs; especially : a tenet or body of tenets held by a group the beliefs of the Catholic Church

3: conviction of the truth of some statement or the reality of some being or phenomenon especially when based on examination of evidence belief in the validity of scientific statements


 Originally Posted By: Merriam Webster


Definition of knowledge

1 obsolete : cognizance

2 a (1) : the fact or condition of knowing something with familiarity gained through experience or association (2) : acquaintance with or understanding of a science, art, or technique

b (1) : the fact or condition of being aware of something (2) : the range of one's information or understanding answered to the best of my knowledge

c : the circumstance or condition of apprehending truth or fact through reasoning : cognition

d : the fact or condition of having information or of being learned a person of unusual knowledge

3 archaic : sexual intercourse

4 a : the sum of what is known : the body of truth, information, and principles acquired by humankind

b archaic : a branch of learning


If you carefully consider the above definitions you will notice that Atheism, disbelief, and belief, all lack knowledge.

Atheism is a system of disbelief.

However, to disbelieve is to hold a belief.

For example, I believe that god as it is commonly known does not exist. I disbelieve in god. However, I cannot prove this.

When you consider the above, you can see quite clearly that Atheism is a belief system.

On the other hand we have knowledge.

Knowledge is something that you obtain once that something has been tested and verified to be true.

In other words, you can prove knowledge.

When you have knowledge, no belief is needed.

For example, I know that cash is a form of currency. I can test this by going into a store and using it as such. This will be verified when the cashier accepts the cash as a form of payment for the items I have selected.

I don't need to believe or disbelieve that cash works. I know that it does.

An Atheist would simply dismiss half of TSB, The Satanic Rituals and parts of The Satanic Witch out of hand.

An Atheist would disbelieve that those things work.

A Satanist would test them to find out.

Here we have Anton LaVey describing the true cornerstone of Satanism: Doubt

 Originally Posted By: Anton LaVey
It has been said "the truth will make men free." The truth alone has never set anyone free. It is only DOUBT which will bring mental emancipation. Without the wonderful element of doubt, the doorway through which truth passes would
be tightly shut, impervious to the most strenuous poundings of a thousand Lucifers. How understand-able that Holy Scripture
should refer to the Infernal monarch as the "father of lies"-a magnificent example of character inversion. If one is to believe this theological accusation that the Devil represents falsehood, then it surely must be concurred that it was HE, NOT GOD, THAT
ESTABLISHED ALL SPIRITUAL RELIGIONS AND WHO WROTE ALL OF THE HOLY BIBLES! When one doubt is followed by another, the bubble, grown large from long accumulated fallacies, threatens to burst. For those who already doubt supposed truths, this book is revelation. Then Lucifer will have risen. Now is the time for doubt! The bubble of falsehood is bursting and its sound is the roar of the world!


It is also interesting to note that the word Atheist is used only twice throughout the entire TSB and that is to discuss Christian atheists.

Are there also Satanic atheists?

It is quite possible for atheists to follow Anton LaVey's advice:

 Originally Posted By: Anton LaVey
If you do not believe in what your religion teaches, why continue to support a belief which is contradictory with your feelings. You would never vote for a person or issue you did not believe in, so why cast your ecclesiastical vote for a religion
which is not consistent with your convictions?


However, I am assuming that it would be even harder for those in the CoS today to claim that they invented Atheism. Likewise, they can't copyright occult and we see how much they like that word. ;\)


Edited by LoneWolf78 (04/16/17 11:33 PM)

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#112357 - 04/16/17 11:41 PM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: LoneWolf78]
Dan_Dread Offline
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LOL, did they kick you out or something?

For the record, your definition of Atheist is way too narrow. Atheist simply means a lack of belief. You don't have to believe there are no deities to be an Atheist,you merely need to remain unconvinced.
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#112358 - 04/16/17 11:46 PM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: Dan_Dread]
LoneWolf78 Offline
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Registered: 05/21/14
Posts: 431
I accept your definition.

 Quote:
Atheist simply means a lack of belief.


Which comes out to disbelief.

Disbelief is a belief.

You are talking about skepticism.

For the record who said that I was kicked in or kicked out?


Edited by LoneWolf78 (04/16/17 11:48 PM)

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#112359 - 04/17/17 02:03 AM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: LoneWolf78]
Bartho LeMule Offline
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Posts: 104
 Originally Posted By: LoneWolf78
Here we have Anton LaVey describing the true cornerstone of Satanism: Doubt


Satanism seems to share things in common with Buddhism then.

There is an old - older than LaVey - Chan Buddhist maxim that goes: "The Greater the Doubt, the Greater the Enlightenment."

This concept in Zen Buddhism is known as " Great Doubt".
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#112360 - 04/17/17 09:42 AM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: LoneWolf78]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Posts: 3946
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Incorrect.

For instance, I lack a belief in the loch Ness monster. However, I don't hold one position or the other vis a vis it's existence. It's perfectly possible some small population of creatures long thought to be extinct might still exist, I just haven't seen convincing evidence yet.

An Atheist is simply one who does not hold a belief in the existence of deities, nothing more, nothing less, and this set includes everyone on earth that lacks these beliefs, including infants and Bushmen from deepest Columbia that have never even heard of the concept of 'deities' in order to deny it.
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#112363 - 04/17/17 10:30 AM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: Dan_Dread]
Megatron Offline
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Registered: 08/22/14
Posts: 859
Loc: fuckit, some kid cracked my co...
 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread
An atheist is simply one who does not hold a belief in the existence of deities, nothing more, nothing less, and this set includes everyone on earth that lacks these beliefs, including infants and Bushmen from deepest Columbia that have never even heard of the concept of 'deities' in order to deny it.


Aww shit, why'd you have to go and do that?

Look, man, it's just literally impossible to lack a belief in ANY proposition X, which proposition you know the meaning of. Given such a proposition, there are three possible belief-stances (epistemic attitudes) which you can take:

the proposition is true,

the proposition is false,

the proposition is meaningless.

There are no other epistemic attitudes you can take towards some statement you know the meaning to.

I know that right about now, you must be fuming. What about the obvious "I DON'T KNOW" as epistemic stance? That is, after all, what you were saying, right?

I would agree with you if I thought the mind could ever be brought to a truly binary (50/50) state. To the point where you had exactly even personal epistemic weight given to two contrary propositions. We're not that neat.

When it comes to gods, and possible gods, and my stance on them, I try to get specific.

Show me a god and I'll tell you whether I believe in him/her/it. Personally I answer "no" to everything except Dharmakaya, which itself is just a word/concept representing a
Warning, Spoiler:
thing
beyond imagination.

So, in short, just say no to gods. Not "I don't know."


Edited by Megatron (04/17/17 10:41 AM)
Edit Reason: Fact: Dolphins are rapists of the highest order.
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Oh, and I spell everything right.

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#112370 - 04/17/17 01:16 PM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: Dan_Dread]
LoneWolf78 Offline
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Registered: 05/21/14
Posts: 431
 Quote:
For instance, I lack a belief in the loch Ness monster. However, I don't hold one position or the other vis a vis it's existence. It's perfectly possible some small population of creatures long thought to be extinct might still exist, I just haven't seen convincing evidence yet.


That is not disbelief and is not Atheism.

It is being skeptical or agnostic if you prefer.

 Quote:
An atheist is simply one who does not hold a belief in the existence of deities, nothing more, nothing less,


So an Atheist is one who does not hold a belief in the existence of deities.

That would mean that you don't have faith in the existence of these things.

Have I misunderstood something?

If I have not, that would also be disbelief which, in fact, is a belief. It takes as much faith to be an Atheist as it does to be a Christian. ;\)

 Quote:
this set includes everyone on earth that lacks these beliefs, including infants and Bushmen from deepest Columbia that have never even heard of the concept of 'deities' in order to deny it.


As you say yourself, infants or Bushmen have not been presented with these concepts to form faith, disbelief, indifference or unsure.

There is a difference between having a lack of understanding and a lack of belief.

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#112372 - 04/17/17 02:45 PM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: LoneWolf78]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
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A belief is a proposition held as 'true' in the mind.

Personally, I hold the proposition 'deities' don't exist' to be true, yet doing so is not necessary to be defined as an Atheist. Many atheists either have not given serious thought to the matter, or have and are simply unsure; Or, as mentioned previously, have never been presented with the concept at all.

Anyhow, since I'm here, let's dial it back to the OP.
 Quote:


When you consider the above, you can see quite clearly that Atheism is a belief system.

On the other hand we have knowledge.

Knowledge is something that you obtain once that something has been tested and verified to be true.

In other words, you can prove knowledge.

When you have knowledge, no belief is needed.


A Ha! Here is the problem; you don't seem to have the first clue about epistemology. Allow me to dial you in.

Everything you think you know is a belief. Any proposition you hold as true is a belief. All of them.

Knowledge is 'justified true belief' which is, yes, every bit as slippery as it sounds.

Secondly, again, an Atheist is simply one who lacks a belief in deities. That doesn't mean they might not believe in anything else, from aliens to fairies to satanic greater magic.

Words mean things \:\)
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#112374 - 04/17/17 03:32 PM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: LoneWolf78]
SIN3 Offline
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Here's a thought. Why should I expel the energy to muster a fuck to give about Peter's thoughts?

He doesn't play the Honey Pot well enough. He has no more importance to the methods of Satanism as any of you people do. Its my life to live. Just as I'd imagine you'd feel about your own lives.

We tread the LHP, we don't circle jerk around it.
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#112375 - 04/17/17 04:24 PM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: SIN3]
LoneWolf78 Offline
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Registered: 05/21/14
Posts: 431
 Quote:
Here's a thought. Why should I expel the energy to muster a fuck to give about Peter's thoughts?

He doesn't play the Honey Pot well enough. He has no more importance to the methods of Satanism as any of you people do. Its my life to live. Just as I'd imagine you'd feel about your own lives.

We tread the LHP, we don't circle jerk around it.


I don't disagree with you on this.

My reason for posting this is quite simple: To call bullshit where it pertains to Satanism.

Either people will agree with my sentiments or they wont.

I have no axe to grind with the CoS. To each their own.

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#112378 - 04/17/17 05:06 PM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: Dan_Dread]
LoneWolf78 Offline
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Registered: 05/21/14
Posts: 431
I understand your thoughts on the issue.

 Quote:
Words mean things \:\)


Problems also arise when people identify with words.

 Quote:
Knowledge is 'justified true belief' which is, yes, every bit as slippery as it sounds.


I disagree.

Do you believe in mathematical equations?

Do you believe in the very real and material items around you?

Do you believe that death is a guaranteed thing?

Hopefully not.

You can demonstrate proof of work for math and have others agree and thus validate the formula.

You know what material possessions that you have and could show them to others who would agree that you do in fact have these things.

You can look through obituaries and cemeteries to see the guarantee of death.

To say that something beyond death exists is a belief.

To say that nothing beyond death exists is also a belief.

Neither argument can be proven.

Same thing with "god".

If you think that there is a big daddy in the sky that is a belief.

If you think there is no such thing as "god" that is also a belief.

You could allow, as you say, for the possibility. A kind of wait until sufficient evidence comes in and still allow for the possibility of being wrong.

That is skepticism. Which, skepticism (hopefully) occurs in epistemology, lest one become faithful.

Perhaps on this point you and I will have to agree to disagree, however.

Anyhoo, yes, back to the OP:

The word Atheist as stated before is listed exactly twice in The Satanic Bible. This is used to explain the concept of Christian Atheists. Of which LaVey says:

 Originally Posted By: Anton LaVey
Great numbers of
people are beginning to doubt the existence of God, in the established Christian sense of the
word. So, they have taken to calling themselves "Christian Atheists". True, the Christian Bible
is a mass of contradictions; but what could be more contradictory than the term "Christian
Atheist"?


It is only the version of TSB with the Gilmore introduction that the word increases from two to six.

Which to be technical is used in part as follows:

 Originally Posted By: Peter Gilmore
I first encountered Anton Szandor LaVey through The Satanic Bible, at the age of thirteen when
I was an avowed Atheist.

Not being partial to literature promoting faith of any sort, I was pleasantly surprised that this was no rant by someone claiming direct contact with Satan.

Instead, I found a common sense, rational, materialist philosophy, along with theatrical ritual
techniques meant as self-transformative psychodrama. Here was a tool perfectly suited to my nature
as a means for getting the most out of my life. I knew that "Atheist" was no longer sufficient as a
designation for myself. This book lead me to meet and befriend LaVey, working with him to
administer the Church he created, and finally to succeed him as the second High Priest of the
Church of Satan.


The other two times that Gilmore uses the word is as follows:

 Originally Posted By: Peter Gilmore
The philosophy presented in it is an integrated whole, not a smorgasbord from which one can
pick and choose. It is meant only for a select few who are epicurean, pragmatic, worldly, atheistic,
fiercely individualistic, materialistic, rational, and darkly poetic. There may be fellow-travelers —
atheists, misanthropes, humanists, freethinkers — who see only a partial reflection of themselves in
this showstone. Satanism may thus attract these types in some ways, but ultimately it is not for
them.


This, is of course, a glaring contradiction to his newest litany where he states:

 Originally Posted By: Peter Gilmore
So, to be clear, Satanism is a carnal, not a spiritual, religion, and it is not a form of occultism. It is an atheist, materialist philosophy that promotes individualism, rational self-interest and the celebration of the one life we have.


So, while in his introduction, he correctly distinguishes between Atheism and Satanism, it sounds as though he has baited and switched his way back to full on Atheism and took the CoS in the same direction.

Getting back to SIN's point which is a good one, why care what Gilmore thinks?

My reason is very simple:

It is to call bullshit.

Satanism is not Atheism.

If it were just that there would have been no use for half of TSB, the entire TSR, or parts of The Satanic Witch.

When the bedrock book of your organization uses the term Atheist twice to describe a contradiction of a term and as the head of said organization you use it to describe the said organization, that is a CONTRADICTION.

As I say, there are folks who will read this and agree.

There are folks who won't.

I have no control over those elements.

I simply called a shot as I saw it.

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#112395 - 04/18/17 10:43 AM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: LoneWolf78]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3946
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
If you aren't clear with your language, how can you hope to be clear in your message?

You should be taking notes son, In this I am the master atop The mountain. Challenge me if you wish.

Maybe this will clue you in. You ask if I believe that math works. I ask the converse; do you NOT believe math works? What is the converse?

Think about it.

As per your source grapes with Gilmore girl..I just don't care. Those guys just aren't relevant to me.
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#112397 - 04/18/17 11:21 AM Re: The nature of axiomatic structures [Re: Dan_Dread]
Megatron Offline
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Registered: 08/22/14
Posts: 859
Loc: fuckit, some kid cracked my co...
 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread
Maybe this will clue you in. You ask if I believe that math works. I ask the converse; do you NOT believe math works? What is the converse?


I have no idea what his point was (actually I do, but who cares), and it doesn't matter. You raise an extremely interesting point/angle regarding the hierarchy of certainty. Let's play a game . . .

Call it Fill in the Blank. I'm going to give you something really simple, try to solve it:

__________________ is absolutely certain; beyond any and all doubt.

Fill in the blank. You can use as many characters as you wish, but 140 might be too many.

My answer?
Warning, Spoiler:
Nothing.
Simple, huh?

Actually, no. One might vector any number of things as axiomatic or indefeasible within a worldview. Not the least of which would be one's own ability to make said judgements. Bootstraps? But of course . . .


Edited by Megatron (04/18/17 11:23 AM)
Edit Reason: Yeah, I used the mighty Semicolon, jealous?.
_________________________
You can't beat me, I'm a fucking Transformer (TM), dude.

Oh, and I spell everything right.

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#112398 - 04/18/17 12:06 PM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: LoneWolf78]
SIN3 Offline
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Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 7064
Loc: Virginia
 Originally Posted By: LW
My reason for posting this is quite simple: To call bullshit where it pertains to Satanism.


Here's the thing. We each speak in split-tongues as it serves our purposes. If it wasn't working out for Peter, you'd expect him to be fairly thin, malnourished and fretting over a wage job. But he isn't.
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#112401 - 04/18/17 01:05 PM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: LoneWolf78]
CanisMachina42 Offline
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Registered: 08/10/13
Posts: 1242
Loc: CA
 Quote:
My reason is very simple:

It is to call bullshit.

Satanism is not Atheism.
 


I think of this sort of like the trope in the movies when the character catches the other in a lie by getting them to answer to a known falsehood.

Perhaps I can get them to all to do dogmatic rituals and light candles like it's fucking Santeria?

 Quote:

If it were just that there would have been no use for half of TSB, the entire TSR, or parts of The Satanic Witch.


Or Avon wouldn't publish a 40 page book, and he kinda took it from there.

Years later, there's devout "followers" using TSB as a stand in for the non-Satanic Bible tapping all the same belief/faith centers.

So when people parrot Gilmore parroting Anton:

 Originally Posted By: Peter Gilmore

So, to be clear, Satanism is a carnal, not a spiritual, religion, and it is not a form of occultism. It is an atheist, materialist philosophy that promotes individualism, rational self-interest and the celebration of the one life we have.


You go to church on Friday instead. That there are even discussions treating LHP expression as an exoteric dogmatic entity to be put alongside other "faiths" is ironic.

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#112403 - 04/18/17 01:57 PM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: Dan_Dread]
LoneWolf78 Offline
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Registered: 05/21/14
Posts: 431
 Originally Posted By: Dan Dread

You should be taking notes son, In this I am the master atop The mountain. Challenge me if you wish.


Ok, a bit of flare I like it.

 Originally Posted By: Dan Dread
As per your source grapes with Gilmore girl..I just don't care. Those guys just aren't relevant to me.


Source grapes?

 Originally Posted By: Dan-Dread
If you aren't clear with your language, how can you hope to be clear in your message?


Tsk tsk. All is good though.

Were I to be a believer, I would take it at it's face value and believe that you meant "source grapes" exactly as you wrote it and ask no other question.

Were I to be a disbeliever, I would believe that you did not mean "source grapes".

So, how can I prove that you meant it as you wrote it? How can I prove that you didn't? I can't.

I lack knowledge which is to say that I am skeptical but I will await your answer. Even when you give me an answer, of course, there could still be doubt, and depending on my understanding of the information, I could also be wrong. Hence, our little math game.

Your argument presents a false dichotomy which is either one is a theist or an Atheist.

Both are absolutes.

I am saying that skepticism is the in-between.

As our friend Megatron says, nothing is absolute. \:\)

As Sin indicates Peter is fat so his double speak works for him. \:D

CanisMachina42, Either I agree with you or you got what I was saying all along. ;\)





Edited by LoneWolf78 (04/18/17 02:01 PM)

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#112407 - 04/18/17 02:14 PM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: LoneWolf78]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3946
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
My autocorrect likes to source grapes. I don't ask it who it's source is, as long as they are green and crispy.

You still don't seem to be getting it. You are using the word belief to mean faith, which is a specific type of belief. A belief is, again, any and all propositions you hold to be true.

Knowledge, is, again, justified true belief. That is just what the word means in epistemology, because all other alternatives are highly problematic and fold under scrutiny. Do you have an alternate definition that can hold its own? If so you'll likely be famous soon.

Not Charlie Sheen famous, but philosophy nerds at the very least will know your name.

As for your claim of a false dichotomy, you are again mistaken. One is either a Theist(holds the premise 'deities' exist as true), or one is not(does not hold the premise 'deities exist' as true). There are no other alternatives. If you are skeptical of that premise, then you do not hold it as true.
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#112410 - 04/18/17 03:21 PM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: LoneWolf78]
SIN3 Offline
stalker


Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 7064
Loc: Virginia
Let me ask you this, if Satanism isn't a celebration of life, indulgence without guilt, materialism and all the carnal pleasures that comes with it - what the hell is it? Why would Anton even use Satan as a way to poke his finger in the eye of Christianity's influence over culture?

If the Devil represents everything that is carnal and sinful, we that embrace it are what? People that believe in imaginary boogeymen?

C'mon, it's so rudimentary that I find it difficult to take these conversations serious.


I wanted to add, that if you DO believe in the devil, I don't think Anton would stand in your way. He may have opinions about it. He may even find your zeal admirable, if you do it with style and still maintain a sense about you. The idea isn't to try to win over the approval of others anyway, the idea is to grab life by the balls and take IT for a ride. So if you're going to be a believer, be one and stop trying to get people into your ride. You don't need a co-pilot for that sort of thing. Even if you manage to hang out with a few people that believe as you do, what does that do for you aside help you make friends that share your beliefs?


Edited by SIN3 (04/18/17 03:25 PM)
Edit Reason: addendum
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#112413 - 04/18/17 03:45 PM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: SIN3]
LoneWolf78 Offline
member


Registered: 05/21/14
Posts: 431
I am not sure why you seem to be itching for an argument, but as far as your remarks go, there are none really to be found.

 Quote:
Let me ask you this, if Satanism isn't a celebration of life, indulgence without guilt, materialism and all the carnal pleasures that comes with it - what the hell is it? Why would Anton even use Satan as a way to poke his finger in the eye of Christianity's influence over culture?


Agreed.

 Quote:

If the Devil represents everything that is carnal and sinful, we that embrace it are what? People that believe in imaginary boogeymen?


Not at all.

You can certainly enjoy half of Satanism without ever venturing over to the other half involving Magic and Ritual. Though it would be kind of like Superman without the kryptonite.

 Quote:
So if you're going to be a believer, be one and stop trying to get people into your ride.


You have missed my point all along. My point has been and so far remains that disbelief is a belief.

I side with doubt and knowledge over belief.

So let me ask you this:

SIN, do you think that Satanism is the same thing as Atheism?

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#112414 - 04/18/17 03:57 PM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: Dan_Dread]
LoneWolf78 Offline
member


Registered: 05/21/14
Posts: 431
 Quote:
One is either a Theist(holds the premise 'deities' exist as true), or one is not(does not hold the premise 'deities exist' as true). There are no other alternatives. If you are skeptical of that premise, then you do not hold it as true.


I disagree on this point.

You seem to be dealing in absolutes.

I am not.

I am saying that there is an in-between where you can keep an opened mind and explore.

To an extent I can see your point about Atheists not discarding everything. For example, I would find many scientists to be Atheist from a religious standpoint. However, there are many believers in science who drive facts to fit the theory that muddy the waters of true science which is doubt and exploration.

Getting back to religion though, I would pose the same question to you that I have to SIN. Do you think that Atheism and Satanism are the same thing? Why or why not?

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#112416 - 04/18/17 05:57 PM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: LoneWolf78]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3946
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Well, I guess you can use whatever words you want to mean whatever you want, and just disagree with points made and points supported just because you feel like it with no supporting argument, but it leaves you in a pretty weak position. Whatever, I'm not going to hold your hand.

As per your question..is that really a serious question? I mean, maybe if you are redefining both of those words to mean something else(which does actually seem to be the case) that might be a coherent question, but as it stands you are pretty much asking if waffles and apples are both types of tree.

Atheism is merely the state of not believing in any deities, despite what you keep insisting.

Satanism has nothing whatsoever to do with whether you believe in deities or not.

Seriously, you should just log out of 600C for a week and brush up on your rhetorical skills, as it stands you are really bad at this.


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#112417 - 04/18/17 06:10 PM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: Dan_Dread]
LoneWolf78 Offline
member


Registered: 05/21/14
Posts: 431
 Quote:
Atheism is merely the state of not believing in any deities, despite what you keep insisting.

Satanism has nothing whatsoever to do with whether you believe in deities or not.


I don't know why you have such a problem with my correctly stating that Atheism is a disbelief. Beyond that I don't see where we disagree on this term.

No less, you and I also agree that Atheism and Satanism are not the same thing, which is what I have been saying since the beginning of this post.

So what exactly is it that you are arguing against?

BTW, as for insults, etc. I know you have a bombastic name and a mean looking avatar. But, seriously, c'mon. This is cyberspace it just seems silly to try to flex your muscles.

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#112420 - 04/18/17 09:05 PM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: LoneWolf78]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3946
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
I see bullshit, I exterminate it. It's what I do.

You laid out a buffet of naked assertions, which I soundly dissected and left laying on the table.

And I haven't even touched your posit that Atheism is a belief system, which it patently isn't. Maybe later
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#112421 - 04/18/17 10:15 PM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: Dan_Dread]
LoneWolf78 Offline
member


Registered: 05/21/14
Posts: 431
 Quote:
I see bullshit, I exterminate it. It's what I do.

You laid out a buffet of naked assertions, which I soundly dissected and left laying on the table.


Not true.

Every term that I put out I defined by way of Merriam Webster dictionary. In fact, I copied and pasted the multiple definitions for each word.

You wish to strictly apply terms as they are defined by parts of Epistemology. As long as you can do that then you can stay in your narrative.

However, Epistemology is only one branch, but it isn't the entire tree.

 Originally Posted By: Dan Dread
We can only ever ‘know’ what we experience, but you are right when you say that we all interpret experience through a subjective lense. All we can know for sure is how these things effect us personally. I


I agree with that.

As far as Atheism goes, the question really is, who cares?

Satanists are Satanists regardless of if there is a man in sandals with a long white beard in the sky. Really we haven't seen any evidence that there is such a god to behave as though there is.

Which is why, I guess you could say, I am confused why so many self professed Satanists seem so hung up on shying away from the term Satanist and replace it with the term Atheist. If you don't feel comfortable using a term when talking to others (don't even get me started on if you bought the high priesthood for an organization called The Church of Satan), then why even bother? Why not stick to the "safe space"?

Mind you, I am not trying to come up with a better way or save Satanism. It is simply something that makes me curious.

IMO, I just think if you are going to call yourself something, then do it, don't pussy foot around in word soup to make apologies for it. (Hence my OP).

 Originally Posted By: Dan Dread
And I haven't even touched your posit that atheism is a belief system, which it patently isn't. Maybe later


Fair enough. To keep it simple, my point is that disbelief is belief.

'Til next time.

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#112424 - 04/18/17 10:57 PM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: LoneWolf78]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3946
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
 Quote:

Every term that I put out I defined by way of Merriam Webster dictionary. In fact, I copied and pasted the multiple definitions for each word.


Yes, you did, which made it all the more comical when you proceeded to use the words Atheist, belief, and knowledge in the creative ways that you did.

Epistemology isn't one branch of some unknown lonely tree somewhere(since you don't seem to know what that means either), it is the philosophy of what can be known, and how things can be known. Much like science, everything there is up for scrutiny and replacement.

Or, since you like copypasta, this;

e·pis·te·mol·o·gy
əˌpistəˈmäləjē/
noun PHILOSOPHY
the theory of knowledge, especially with regard to its methods, validity, and scope. Epistemology is the investigation of what distinguishes justified belief from opinion.

Yes, I am the language police. Yet the limits of ones language mean the limits of ones world..;)
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#112436 - 04/19/17 12:29 PM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: LoneWolf78]
SIN3 Offline
stalker


Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 7064
Loc: Virginia
 Originally Posted By: LoneWolf78
I am not sure why you seem to be itching for an argument,


That's just your perception. I'm not responsible for it.

 Quote:
You have missed my point all along. My point has been and so far remains that disbelief is a belief.


No I haven't. I'm directly challenging your logical fallacy. I'm confrontational, arguing implies that one of us will come out the winner. I'm not trying to win you over to my side. I'm confronting your obvious misstep here. Take it as a challenge to think on it more critically rather arguing for its sake alone.

 Quote:

I side with doubt and knowledge over belief.


You can't expect me to believe in something that lacks evidence to support it, even a UPG requires some catalyst. If the experience was compelling enough, it would spark some sort of belief (even if only a blind one). A dis-belief is not a belief.


 Quote:
So let me ask you this:

SIN, do you think that Satanism is the same thing as Atheism?


Atheism is a form of Satanic practice. If the norm were all Devil Worship, my lack of Devil Worship is a Satanic Act.

Caprice?
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#112439 - 04/19/17 03:25 PM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: SIN3]
LoneWolf78 Offline
member


Registered: 05/21/14
Posts: 431
 Quote:
Atheism is a form of Satanic practice.


For the most part agreed. I would say that is a tool that Satanists can use, but it is certainly not the definition of Satanism.

As for the rest, you enjoy reading, so here are a couple of things that you may find of interest.

here and here.

Beyond that, the debate on the topic of disbelief being a belief seems to be ongoing in Atheist communities. So far, based on what I have seen, when someone says that disbelief isn't a belief, my response is, that I doubt it. I could be wrong, that is fine by me. I am not concerned with Atheism. I am a Satanist.

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#112440 - 04/19/17 03:38 PM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: Dan_Dread]
LoneWolf78 Offline
member


Registered: 05/21/14
Posts: 431
 Quote:
Epistemology isn't one branch of some unknown lonely tree somewhere(since you don't seem to know what that means either), it is the philosophy of what can be known, and how things can be known.


I understand that.

What I am saying is that philosophy is the tree. One of the branches of that tree is Epistemology. Which, as you say, deals in what can be known and how things can be known. The other branch of that tree is Ontology, another is Methodology.

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#112441 - 04/19/17 04:16 PM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: LoneWolf78]
SIN3 Offline
stalker


Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 7064
Loc: Virginia
 Originally Posted By: LoneWolf78
 Quote:
Atheism is a form of Satanic practice.


For the most part agreed. I would say that is a tool that Satanists can use, but it is certainly not the definition of Satanism.


In a society that is permeated with beliefs in the Supernatural, whether gods, unicorns or delusions of grandeur (and I do mean "Magick"), it's the epitome of it. A lack of belief in gods, is the -ism part. Words mean things, no matter how much effort is put forth to change them, the commonly held understanding of it remains. That's language. That's how language operates. Words are just carriers, what is being carried is meaning. If you don't know what I mean when I say 'Satanism', it accounts for beating this corpse to death on the daily here. It was never meant for the masses, let them believe we worship the devil. That's useful. As for those that claim the title Satanist, you'd be hard-pressed to convince us it means something else. This is why the so-called 'versions' are shat upon because it's ludicrous. Satanism is just Satanism. not Theistic-Satanism, Spiritual-Satanism, Luciferic-Satanism, et. al. It's unnecessary.

 Quote:
Beyond that, the debate on the topic of disbelief being a belief seems to be ongoing in atheist communities.
Because people lack understanding and are mostly idiots.

 Quote:
So far, based on what I have seen, when someone says that disbelief isn't a belief, my response is, that I doubt it.


You haven't proven that a dis-belief, is a belief. I somewhat understand where you're coming from though. Say, I'm a flat-earther and I hold a disbelief in the world being spherical. I hold beliefs in a flat earth but my disbelief still isn't a belief. Only the beliefs I hold in a flat earth are. It only seems confusing but it's really simple.

 Quote:
I could be wrong, that is fine by me. I am not concerned with atheism. I am a Satanist.


And I'm not concerned with your beliefs. I am only concerned with how people perceive these things. It's all ammo to me.
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#112443 - 04/19/17 05:07 PM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: SIN3]
LoneWolf78 Offline
member


Registered: 05/21/14
Posts: 431
 Quote:
This is why the so-called 'versions' are shat upon because it's ludicrous. Satanism is just Satanism. not Theistic-Satanism, Spiritual-Satanism, Luciferic-Satanism, et. al. It's unnecessary.


Really?

Really?!!

Ok, here we go:

[quote:SIN3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSR6TPSNcOk

I've explored all kinds of Satanism. (25:23)/

I want to make a point about Satanism. I feel very strongly about this because that it exists. There is not one form of Satanism. This is our form of Satanism. This is our form of Satanism. We seem to be on the same point that it is very atheistic and we don't acknowledge deities, however, there are other forms of Satanism that do. There's tons of them. Ya know, I'm on paganspace.net go to paganspace.net and I have a thread Satanism for dummies that you would love it links you to other forms of Satanism it has a plethora of information, seriously educate yourselves because this is our Satanism there are TONS of kinds of Satanism. (45:28)

I think it is so limiting to think that way (that there is only one type of Satanism) (49:38) [/quote]

So, tell me to you still feel strongly about the "TONS of kinds of Satanism that there are or that "Satanism is just Satanism. not Theistic-Satanism, Spiritual-Satanism, Luciferic-Satanism, et. al. It's unnecessary?"

Or

Is it that split tongue thing that you were talking about?


Edited by LoneWolf78 (04/19/17 05:08 PM)

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#112447 - 04/20/17 06:46 AM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: LoneWolf78]
Megatron Offline
active member


Registered: 08/22/14
Posts: 859
Loc: fuckit, some kid cracked my co...
 Originally Posted By: LoneWolf78
Is it that split tongue thing that you were talking about?


Wow! That was brilliant.

I've often wondered if, due to my prolific nature, my own words could be turned against me. I'm sure they could. Even though I've had the same ultimate philosophical core for the last 20+ years, things on the periphery shift and move from time to time.

Also, there's the issue of context. It is entirely possible to hold these two statements as true at the same time (just not in the same respect):

A) There is only one Satanism

B) There are many forms of Satanism.

Still, given these caveats, I must say, that was some fierce shit you just did, dude. But look at me, I just pulled off FOUR COMMAS! Only ever done five once.

JK


Edited by Megatron (04/20/17 06:57 AM)
Edit Reason: pay no attention to the man behind the curtain
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Oh, and I spell everything right.

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#112449 - 04/20/17 09:09 AM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: LoneWolf78]
SIN3 Offline
stalker


Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 7064
Loc: Virginia
Just because a lot of people misunderstand, doesn't make that misunderstanding the way things are.

If you believe in a Devil, do it. Fuck everybody, that's still just Satanism.

If you have spiritual leanings, Be Spiritual. Who cares what other people think about it. Why do you give a shit? That's still just Satanism.

You have a boner for Lucifer? Fan-fucking-tastic. Fap to misunderstood myths and do the damn thing. Still, it's just Satanism.

It's really simple. It's not hard to understand, only the unintelligible have trouble with it.
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#112450 - 04/20/17 09:33 AM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: SIN3]
LoneWolf78 Offline
member


Registered: 05/21/14
Posts: 431
 Quote:
If you believe in a Devil, do it. Fuck everybody, that's still just Satanism.

If you have spiritual leanings, Be Spiritual. Who cares what other people think about it. Why do you give a shit? That's still just Satanism.

You have a boner for Lucifer? Fan-fucking-tastic. Fap to misunderstood myths and do the damn thing. Still, it's just Satanism.


I agree.

I also agree with your sentiments of defying authority would be Satanism.

Being yourself with no apologies would also be Satanism.

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#112461 - 04/21/17 11:39 AM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: LoneWolf78]
SIN3 Offline
stalker


Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 7064
Loc: Virginia
Right, so if you want to try to sell it to me, I don't have to buy it. I shouldn't need to. External Validation is for people with a weak conviction.

People have been writing feverishly for decades to change the stripes of that Tiger but the Tiger is still a Tiger.
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#112464 - 04/21/17 12:06 PM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: SIN3]
LoneWolf78 Offline
member


Registered: 05/21/14
Posts: 431
 Quote:
Right, so if you want to try to sell it to me, I don't have to buy it. I shouldn't need to.


I will answer you by quoting you:

 Quote:

That's just your perception. I'm not responsible for it.


 Quote:
External Validation is for people with a weak conviction.


Agreed.

Anything else?

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#113031 - 06/05/17 04:29 PM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: LoneWolf78]
Bacchus Offline
pledge


Registered: 09/08/16
Posts: 56
@LoneWolf78

Even as a non-member I am grateful to the CoS for available materials provided by them and nobody else because that's the stuff I resonate with and not the other crap that I find almost everywhere else.

What may seem to the unthinking or the disgruntled as some sort of "corporate tyranny" of Gilmore or CoS is in fact a useful mechanism to protect LaVey's doctrines and practices from corruption, infiltration and takeover by various packs and their own fucking ideas and angles. It is much harder for infiltrators to operate within a corporate entity, especially small, tight-knit entity and disseminate their alien doctrines.

Man is a pack animal and there's no way around it, even for a practitioner of the individualistic doctrine. Without the "corporate meat-grinder" just about any group would have used Satanism as a vehicle for their special agenda.

You wouldn't want to turn CoS into some anemic "spirituality" club, would you? Or into just another socially engaged movement for the "great unwashed"?

 Quote:
"No one, let me repeat, NO ONE needs an organization to grant them freedom of thought or exploration. Anyone who would depend upon such a set up is indeed a slave and hardly a Satanist."


So many people are born into various groups and organizations that deny them their own autonomous faculties of senses and reason, so they can be considered slaves. But it takes a CHOICE (an act of a free man) to join the CoS. Instead to hide in a closet like a frightened animal it takes a COURAGE to join what is perhaps the only group that openly stands for egoism in a world that demands self-sacrifice and obedience. It's a PLEASURE to find other individuals with whom you may have something in common with, thus it is a form of SELF-INDULGENCE to pursue this joy.
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#113032 - 06/05/17 05:36 PM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: Bacchus]
Czereda Offline
senior member


Registered: 03/14/11
Posts: 1983
Loc: Poland
 Quote:
... a useful mechanism to protect LaVey's doctrines and practices from corruption, infiltration and takeover by various packs and their own fucking ideas and angles.


LaVey's doctrines. Hilarious.

But this is what is happening. Anyone can read LaVey's writings and the works of other CoS pooh bahs, most of which can be downloaded for free online and just do whatever they want with the ideas presented there. Of course, Gilmore might rant that the heretics ain't troo Satanists, that they are pretenders to the throne yada yada, the bullshit PR hardly anyone gives a fuck about.

I also wonder why you believe Satanism shouldn't be used as a vehicle for one's personal agenda. What is it for then?
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#113033 - 06/05/17 05:42 PM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: Bacchus]
samowens84 Offline
member


Registered: 09/29/16
Posts: 198
 Originally Posted By: Bacchus


So many people are born into various groups and organizations that deny them their own autonomous faculties of senses and reason, so they can be considered slaves. But it takes a CHOICE (an act of a free man) to join the CoS. Instead to hide in a closet like a frightened animal it takes a COURAGE to join what is perhaps the only group that openly stands for egoism in a world that demands self-sacrifice and obedience. It's a PLEASURE to find other individuals with whom you may have something in common with, thus it is a form of SELF-INDULGENCE to pursue this joy.


It takes "courage" to be open about being a satanist. Joining CoS is something else. They keep the registry secret. There is nothing inconsistent about being a "frightened animal" and being a member. It would take the extra step to tell your friends and family to announce said membership. Of course, one could just tell people youre a satanist and have the same "courage." Which for some people might just be foolhardy self-destruction. Are you arguing that "true Satanism" requires you to be a martyre for the "cause?"

As for finding like minded individuals, even Peter Gilmore will tell you that they arent the lonely hearts club, and that joining them does not necessarily bring you in contact with other individuals. Again, they say that it is not their responsibility. With the age of the internet and proper applications of lesser magic, you can find them on your own.

Personally, Ive done both these things and I am not a member. However that does not exclude me from joining in the future. My motives would only be a sense of responsibility and gratitude to an organization that I hope continues to publish new literature. I dont need them for "like-minded" individuals, or to feel especially "couragous." Im secure in both aspects thank you.


Edited by samowens84 (06/05/17 05:59 PM)

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#113035 - 06/05/17 06:31 PM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: samowens84]
Cyrus Offline
stranger


Registered: 05/05/17
Posts: 20
Loc: Portland, OR
Re: Bacchus

The bit about "courage" to join a group that celebrates egoism is amusing to me, because if one is an unbending egoist then one doesn't need anyone else to validate, or even share, that attribute. Only someone who (IMO rightly) questions their own egoist tendencies would need that group reinforcement. So what's the point of such a group, except as a sort of purgatory for people who are stuck in that catch-22, "Misanthropes United".

That's why I never joined any of the Satanic organizations until I found one that was more about social engagement than about ego--so I enjoy the social engagement, for its own sake, and practice my personal version of Satanism without needing their or anyone's stamp of approval.


Edited by Cyrus (06/05/17 06:32 PM)

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#113036 - 06/05/17 06:33 PM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: Czereda]
Bacchus Offline
pledge


Registered: 09/08/16
Posts: 56
 Originally Posted By: Czereda

LaVey's doctrines. Hilarious.

But this is what is happening. Anyone can read LaVey's writings and the works of other CoS pooh bahs, most of which can be downloaded for free online and just do whatever they want with the ideas presented there. Of course, Gilmore might rant that the heretics ain't troo Satanists, that they are pretenders to the throne yada yada, the bullshit PR hardly anyone gives a fuck about.


If ANY individual was capable of critical examination (and especially self-examination) than The Nine Satanic Sins would have been superfluous, serving no purpose whatsoever. Some individuals need interaction, some seek self-perfection via exchange of ideas. Evidently you can't get a constructive, systematic exchange of ideas about a PARTICULAR field of interest just about everywhere and with everybody.

 Quote:
I also wonder why you believe Satanism shouldn't be used as a vehicle for one's personal agenda. What is it for then?


My original claim was about sectarian agendas. Why do you think LaVeyan Satanists should be spoonfed with non-LaVeyan garbage they disagree with? There are lots places where we can listen all sorts of outsiders provided we don't have anything better to do.
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#113037 - 06/05/17 07:29 PM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: Bacchus]
Czereda Offline
senior member


Registered: 03/14/11
Posts: 1983
Loc: Poland
 Quote:
My original claim was about sectarian agendas. Why do you think LaVeyan Satanists should be spoonfed with non-LaVeyan garbage they disagree with?


And it isn't a sectarian approach, right? A funny dude you are.
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#113038 - 06/05/17 07:31 PM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: samowens84]
Bacchus Offline
pledge


Registered: 09/08/16
Posts: 56
 Originally Posted By: samowens84
"They keep the registry secret... Are you arguing that "true Satanism" requires you to be a martyre for the "cause?"


Of course not, but to join a maligned group is an act of a courage because martyrdom CAN come down the road as an undesired consequence, regardless of all precautions. So courage is about taking the acceptable risk for a gain. It's not martyrdom or courage per se one is after but new experiences and fun.

 Quote:
As for finding like minded individuals, even Peter Gilmore will tell you that they arent the lonely hearts club, and that joining them does not necessarily bring you in contact with other individuals. Again, they say that it is not their responsibility.


I wouldn't know about that but I do remember hearing LaVey's interview stating that in the end of the day man is a 'social animal' and that this is indulgence too, as opposed to abstinence, asceticism. It's not as if he said that Satanists MUST join some organization or MUST internally socialize but rather that they don't have to live as hermits if they (mutually) find a society a more desirable alternative.

 Quote:
With the age of the internet and proper applications of lesser magic, you can find them on your own.


Internet is a mixed bag. churchofsatan.com and links on that page are more specific. I'm grateful there is such an organization online to provide info because without it I'd probably dwelled on all sorts of useless distractions and often crafty baits for a while and eventually loose interest.
_________________________
The Satanic High Mass

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#113039 - 06/05/17 07:50 PM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: Bacchus]
Czereda Offline
senior member


Registered: 03/14/11
Posts: 1983
Loc: Poland
 Originally Posted By: Bacchus
Of course not, but to join a maligned group is an act of a courage because martyrdom CAN come down the road as an undesired consequence, regardless of all precautions... I'm grateful there is such an organization online to provide info because without it I'd probably dwelled on all sorts of useless distractions and often crafty baits for a while and eventually loose interest.


I'm willing to bet all my money that this guy is trolling. Is this a test?

Go try your luck in a cabaret, buddy. You're wasting your potential here.
_________________________
Anna Czereda
O9A Meme Cat

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#113040 - 06/05/17 07:55 PM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: Bacchus]
samowens84 Offline
member


Registered: 09/29/16
Posts: 198
I personally dont do well with group dynamics, and have never searched for any "right group." I hen picked a few individuals off the internet, and a couple in the real world. This way Im the center, and no one can exclude me from it. Joining an organization puts that power squarely in the hands of an authority figure. And I dont need them to sort out who is worthwhile and who isnt. Ive learned to usually discriminate on my own who to include. Not that meeting new people doesnt includes unforseen risk. Like you said, no matter how many precautions taken...

"Of course not, but to join a maligned group is an act of a courage because martyrdom CAN come down the road as an undesired consequence, regardless of all precautions. So courage is about taking the acceptable risk for a gain. It's not martyrdom or courage per se one is after but new experiences and fun."

Do this on my own. I enjoy my life. ;\) But I agree with the sentiment. Adventure, excitement and new wisdoms gained usually come at the price of safety.


Edited by samowens84 (06/05/17 07:59 PM)

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#113041 - 06/05/17 08:14 PM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: Czereda]
Bacchus Offline
pledge


Registered: 09/08/16
Posts: 56
 Originally Posted By: Czereda
And it isn't a sectarian approach, right? A funny dude you are.


There's nothing wrong about sectarianism provided it's your sort of sectarianism. Otherwise what's the point of wasting your time with people you don't share any common affinities? doh...





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The Satanic High Mass

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#113043 - 06/05/17 08:39 PM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: samowens84]
Bacchus Offline
pledge


Registered: 09/08/16
Posts: 56
 Originally Posted By: samowens84
I personally dont do well with group dynamics, and have never searched for any "right group." I hen picked a few individuals off the internet, and a couple in the real world. This way Im the center, and no one can exclude me from it. Joining an organization puts that power squarely in the hands of an authority figure. And I dont need them to sort out who is worthwhile and who isnt. Ive learned to usually discriminate on my own who to include. Not that meeting new people doesnt includes unforseen risk. Like you said, no matter how many precautions taken...


That's about how I reason as well in practice. I doubt I'll be joining any group soon but If I ever change my mind CoS will be my first choice since they seem to be least cryptic and since I have already noticed a number of people affiliated with them that seem sensible.
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The Satanic High Mass

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#113044 - 06/05/17 08:54 PM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: Bacchus]
samowens84 Offline
member


Registered: 09/29/16
Posts: 198
 Originally Posted By: Bacchus
 Originally Posted By: samowens84
I personally dont do well with group dynamics, and have never searched for any "right group." I hen picked a few individuals off the internet, and a couple in the real world. This way Im the center, and no one can exclude me from it. Joining an organization puts that power squarely in the hands of an authority figure. And I dont need them to sort out who is worthwhile and who isnt. Ive learned to usually discriminate on my own who to include. Not that meeting new people doesnt includes unforseen risk. Like you said, no matter how many precautions taken...


That's about how I reason as well in practice. I doubt I'll be joining any group soon but If I ever change my mind CoS will be my first choice since they seem to be least cryptic and since I have already noticed a number of people affiliated with them that seem sensible.


Lol so what was that bullshit about "courage" if you havent already joined? Are you scared and trying to talk yourself into it? Are you that "scared frightened animal?" ;\)


Edited by samowens84 (06/05/17 08:56 PM)

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#113046 - 06/05/17 09:18 PM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: samowens84]
Bacchus Offline
pledge


Registered: 09/08/16
Posts: 56
 Originally Posted By: samowens84
Lol so what was that bullshit about "courage" if you havent already joined? Are you scared and trying to talk yourself into it? Are you that "scared frightened animal?" ;\)


Courage not the absence of fear or bravado but rather resistance to fear, mastery of fear. The reason why I haven't joined has nothing to do with taking into consideration all the unlikely but still possible risks (like theocratic government taking over and purging all non-Christians).
_________________________
The Satanic High Mass

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#113048 - 06/05/17 09:25 PM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: Bacchus]
Creatura Noptii Offline
active member


Registered: 01/02/16
Posts: 922
Loc: Oregon
You give yourself too much credit.

If you are afraid of shit like that you have nothing at all to do with Satanism. Go suck the dick of Baphomet at the Satanic temple like all the others.

I've worn a satanic symbol at work, told people I'm a Satanist and you know something?

No fucks given. Not by them, or me.

If people don't like that I'm a Satanist, big fucking deal. If one were to get fired over it they'd probably have ground to sue for religious discrimination, as I'm pretty sure Satanism is recognized as an official religion in quite a few Western societies.

More money, and more stupid people to one-up and fuck with.

Get over yourself, or continue on like a bitch.


Edited by Creatura Noptii (06/05/17 09:34 PM)
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Creatură Nopții

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#113049 - 06/05/17 11:02 PM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: Bacchus]
samowens84 Offline
member


Registered: 09/29/16
Posts: 198
 Originally Posted By: Bacchus
 Originally Posted By: samowens84
Lol so what was that bullshit about "courage" if you havent already joined? Are you scared and trying to talk yourself into it? Are you that "scared frightened animal?" ;\)


Courage not the absence of fear or bravado but rather resistance to fear, mastery of fear. The reason why I haven't joined has nothing to do with taking into consideration all the unlikely but still possible risks (like theocratic government taking over and purging all non-Christians).


Courage isnt courage without action. And youre a long way from "mastery." Youre still just a slave.

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#113050 - 06/05/17 11:03 PM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: Creatura Noptii]
Cyrus Offline
stranger


Registered: 05/05/17
Posts: 20
Loc: Portland, OR
 Originally Posted By: Bacchus
There's nothing wrong about sectarianism provided it's your sort of sectarianism. Otherwise what's the point of wasting your time with people you don't share any common affinities?

Learning, growing as a person, refining coarse ideas, reflecting on areas only noticed by someone with a different perspective, etc. Also, I think one should be careful about assuming (or deciding prematurely) that any given person or group of people really does not share any common affinities with you. Sure you can make up extreme cases like a militant Islamist and a militant Zionist, how it would be unlikely for them to enjoy spending time together, so why bother. But not only have many of us seen (or lived) cases of supposed enemies learning to work together or even become friends, but more relevantly most real-life interactions are not such caricature extremes. Especially if the other person does explicitly share one OBVIOUS common affinity. All you'd be doing is blowing up some minor differences into an all-or-nothing fantasy. That is IMO one of the worst common traits of most established religions.

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#113051 - 06/05/17 11:21 PM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: Creatura Noptii]
Cyrus Offline
stranger


Registered: 05/05/17
Posts: 20
Loc: Portland, OR
 Originally Posted By: Bacchus
...taking into consideration all the unlikely but still possible risks (like theocratic government taking over and purging all non-Christians).

 Originally Posted By: Creatura Noptii
You give yourself too much credit.

If you are afraid of shit like that you have nothing at all to do with Satanism. Go suck the dick of Baphomet at the Satanic temple like all the others.

Agreed with the first part--but I have to point out that TST has done more in actual, concrete work to mitigate the possibility of theocratic government abuse than any other Satanic organization. That might not be as exciting as an individual declaring that they can publicly signify whatever they want with zero fear; but there are many countries and communities where people are tortured, killed, "disappeared", and dispossessed for not conforming to the local theocratic law. They have real reason to fear, and you in your exquisite safety do not. We in somewhat freer countries have the luxury of being defiant without much reprisal--but only due to the rule of law being checked by the separation of church and state, which is reinforced by the precedents set in legal cases. If there are any other Satanic -or even "faux" or "supposedly" Satanic- groups doing this sort of work that I don't know about, I'd love to hear it.

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#113052 - 06/05/17 11:43 PM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: Bacchus]
LoneWolf78 Offline
member


Registered: 05/21/14
Posts: 431
 Originally Posted By: Bacchus
What may seem to the unthinking or the disgruntled as some sort of "corporate tyranny" of Gilmore or CoS is in fact a useful mechanism to protect LaVey's doctrines and practices from corruption, infiltration and takeover by various packs and their own fucking ideas and angles.


You're joking, right?

Gilmore has back-peddled nearly anything that LaVey said that could be considered slightly controversial. This would include Satanism. Notice how he has been fading it out in favor of the more socially acceptable Atheism?

 Originally Posted By: Bacchus
You wouldn't want to turn CoS into some anemic "spirituality" club, would you? Or into just another socially engaged movement for the "great unwashed"?


As opposed to what? Gilmore's Atheist, yet faithful followers? Gosh dang your right, I forgot Satanism was a knitting club managed by geeks and boy-scouts.


 Originally Posted By: Bacchus
But it takes a CHOICE (an act of a free man) to join the CoS. Instead to hide in a closet like a frightened animal it takes a COURAGE to join what is perhaps the only group that openly stands for egoism in a world that demands self-sacrifice and obedience.


Ok, now this one is just too goddamned funny! Here is a recent take on tucking in your Baphomet:

 Originally Posted By: Elizabeth Salmone
The Purposeful Art of Tucking the Baphomet
by Satanist Elizabeth Salome
an article for The Black Flame—March, LI A.S.
…the real Satanist is not quite so easily recognized as such. - Anton LaVey
Each member of the Church of Satan is unique, and so the comfort level about living as an open Satanist is different for each of us. For me personally, I am not in a position to publicly vocalize my affiliation with the Church of Satan. Even now, 50 years after the Church was founded, a certain level of “Satanic Panic” is still very real. It is a sad truth, but it is a truth.
I have many acquaintances in my everyday world. Personally and professionally, I do enjoy my own brand of popularity. I’m known for being the offbeat, sarcastic, charming lady that I am, and for being a lover of the arts and the darker corners of life. I suppose that like-minded individuals in open spaces might be able to sniff me out for the LHP'er that I am.
That being said, I work in a highly competitive market, and I rely heavily on both my personality and my Lesser Magic to set me apart from my peers. I also bring in clients largely by word of mouth referral. Take those two pieces of the puzzle and add in the fact that I grew up within the Catholic School system, and that many of my repeat clients are people that I have known since then, and you have a very good reason to keep my membership with the Church under wraps. I would go so far to say that 95% of my clients are religious in some way or another.
Why do I care if they know and/or accept my Satanic Self or not? Simply put, money. It behooves me financially to play a certain “role.” Now, I am not saying that I (or that you should) run around pretending to be a Christian; my family and close friends know that I am an Atheist. I’m just saying that I smile and nod, and collect my money. I don’t want just that 5% of non-religious revenue—I want it all, by whatever means necessary.
I admit that I struggled for quite some time with the notion that I might not be a worthy or productive Satanist if I was not “out of the closet.” (A struggle admittedly exacerbated by knowing some extremely powerful, extremely vocal Satanists.) I think perhaps that internal battle may be a natural part of the process for many people after their initial introduction to the Church of Satan. For me, I worried about whether or not I was able to make my Church proud if I could not openly speak about my affiliation, much less wear a shiny, undeniable Baphomet.
The truth is that I can. And so can you. There are many great members, both Active and Registered, who keep their affiliation private. Being a “good” Satanist is not about what we wear, how loud we shout “Hail Satan!”, or what we say in a group or message board online. It’s about who we are and how we LIVE. It’s about being a productive member of society. About “living deep and sucking out all the marrow of life.“ About being Epicurean Ladies and Gentleman who strive for personal happiness and growth, moving ever forward in our passions and pursuits.
Even though I am a Witch in the broom closet, I know that I am still a damned good Satanist. If you align yourself with the tenets of the Church of Satan and strive to be your very best in all that you do, you are too, even if you’re not shouting “Hail Satan!” from the rooftop.


Perhaps your late on the bus, but the CoS nearly encourages members to hide in the closet from Gilmore all of the way down.

Here is the thing Bacchus:

It takes FAITH to believe whatever any religious leader tells you.

It is easy to follow the herd lock step.

It takes COURAGE to question all things especially what is considered unquestionable by so-called leaders.

Moreover it takes both COURAGE and HONESTY for leaders of such groups to put themselves up for scrutiny and question.

Satanism isn't for the faithful.

Apply that to the CoS and then come back and talk about courage and bravery.

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#113054 - 06/06/17 09:14 AM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: Cyrus]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3946
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
 Quote:
TST has done more in actual, concrete work to mitigate the possibility of theocratic government abuse than any other Satanic organization.


..and their good guy badges are in the mail, don't you worry.
_________________________
RETIRED


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#113061 - 06/06/17 12:01 PM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: Dan_Dread]
Creatura Noptii Offline
active member


Registered: 01/02/16
Posts: 922
Loc: Oregon
 Quote:
there are many countries and communities

So go to those. Spread the good word where most needed, as it were. Those Christians at least know how to leave their little shell. Your organization beats a dead horse. Freedom of religious practice came long before your temple, as did Satanism.

In any case, I'm sure their milk and cookies are all worth it on good Sundays.

Nothing new.
_________________________
Creatură Nopții

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#113071 - 06/06/17 06:01 PM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: LoneWolf78]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2706
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: LoneWolf78
In this news essay Peter Gilmore explains why that the CoS drifts further from Satanism as it was defined by Anton LaVey.

The Gilmoronic "Church of Satan" has been neither a church nor acknowledging of Satan since 1975, when Anton LaVey disavowed both:

 Originally Posted By: Anton LaVey, 24 hours before 6/21/75
I have freely admitted that I assumed my office of High Priest because at the time there was no one else who did. The titles “Infernal Empire”, “Exarch of Hell”, etc. are symbolic, not literal.

Not exactly ...

 Originally Posted By: Anton LaVey, Satanis, 1968
I’m in league with the Devil as much as any mortal can possibly be.

 Originally Posted By: Anton LaVey, The Cloven Hoof, 3/1970
And what do they do, now that it is safe to use His Great Infernal Name? They deny Him! They have the opportunity to cast the very creed of defamation, which killed their brothers and sisters of the past - cast that creed before the world in triumphal mockery of its age of unreason! But no! They do not thrust the bifid barb of Satan aloft and shout, “He has triumphed!” His Art and Works which brought men to the rack and thumbscrew, can now be learned in safety! But No! He is denied! Denied by those who cry up His Art and ply His Work!

Let it be known that every man who delves into the Arts of Darkness must give the Devil and His Children the due their years of infamy deserve! Satan’s Name will not be denied! Let no man shun or mock His Name who plays His winning game, or Despair, Depletion, and Destruction await!

As indeed followed. As for the Church of Satan, it had been incorporated as a non-profit church in California in 1971. Post-1975 Anton discarded this, asserting it to be a business partnership between his wife Diane and himself. Once Sharon "Blanche Barton" Densley had established herself at 6114 in Diane's place, Diane sued Anton in Superior Court to dissolve the "partnership".

 Originally Posted By: Judge Ollie Marie-Victoire, Supplemental order after trial, Case #891863, 10/28/91
A receiver will be appointed by the court, at defendant’s expense, to prepare an accounting and inventory of all partnership assets, and upon completion of such accounting a dissolution of the partnership will occur and all partnership assets will be divided 50-50 between the parties.

Anton delayed, but did not vacate this court order by filing personal bankruptcy, in which he now asserted under oath that the "Church of Satan" was nothing more than his personal business:

 Originally Posted By: Anton LaVey, Declaration, Chapter 11 Case #91-34251, April 22, 1992
My income derives from my operation as a sole proprietor known as the Church of Satan and from royalties from the sales of my books.

Hence whatever Peter Gilmore advertises his own business to be, it has never had anything to do with Satan or His Church.

[Complete documents, references, & attributions in my The Church of Satan.]
_________________________
Michael A. Aquino

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#113076 - 06/06/17 09:59 PM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
LoneWolf78 Offline
member


Registered: 05/21/14
Posts: 431
Exactly Dr. Aquino. I guess that my original intention for the OP was because I know that every now and then a new comer hops on here. While the past has been well documented by yourself, Gilmore still continues to show why that his business is neither a church or has anything to do with Satan as you say.

What really gets me is how that anyone could call themselves a Satanist and have faith in....well in anything.

When it comes to cults of personality, I am inclined to agree with Nikolas and Zeena Schreck on one hand:

 Originally Posted By: Demons of The Flesh
If there is an appropriate left-hand path attitude to be taken with the famous and infamous sex-magical teachers of the past, it is surely irreverence, not pious sanctification. In fact, in the process of transforming yourself from human to divine consciousness through erotic initiation, a
healthy irreverence directed at your own pretensions is mandatory.


For that matter, read the entire Second Book of Satan in TSB and apply it towards the current CoS.

When it comes to an Anton LaVey fan clubhere is a new video with the happy Gilmore's and I notice that they still haven't managed to get out from under your shadow Dr. Aquino. In fact, from what I can gather they are still up in a bundle because you have not recognized Gilmore as a High Priest.

I also agree with Don Webb,

 Originally Posted By: The Mysteries of The Temple of Set
The Temple began with a handful of people who broke away from the Church of Satan. Almost anyone would have imagined this small group in California to have the average fate of any cult. It would center on a leader, immerse itself in the art of gaining as many members as possible, dumb down it's teachings, and eventually factionalize again into other small groups, and have no effect on the occult world except for generating some peculiar artifacts on ebay.


Sadly, this is nearly prophetic when one considers this podcast episode of The Devil You Know. Talk about dumbing down. More like special ed class at it's finest. (Though anyone who listens to or watches John "Shawsome" can see that this is befitting. Anytime I see him he looks as though he is lost in space and clueless.) Hell, most of the episode is devoted to who should sell what trinkets on ebay and when that they should. Might as well take the current CoS to Pawnstars I'm sure that Chumley would entertain them. \:D

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#113080 - 06/07/17 02:32 AM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: Creatura Noptii]
Cyrus Offline
stranger


Registered: 05/05/17
Posts: 20
Loc: Portland, OR
 Originally Posted By: Creatura Noptii
Freedom of religious practice came long before your temple

And you do not see those freedoms being eroded and robbed right in front of our eyes by the theocratic shitbags currently in office? Christian curricula taught openly in schools, women's health care defunded for religious reasons, the health of our kids sold out on the basis of dominionism, etc. Perhaps you think if those actions don't affect you directly, they don't affect anyone else? Perhaps you think this is not a slippery slope?
 Originally Posted By: Creatura Noptii
as did Satanism.

No disagreement there--but so what? Anton made it official in '69, but we've just seen posts here clearly showing why Anton's gig was not the last word on the subject, and many of us like to claim that Satanism existed long before him anyway.

TST never once claimed to be first, original, or "new". They set out an agenda, and proceeded to follow it; they don't claim authorship, they just do the work. Give them a few decades, and they'll be considered just as "real" as these other self-help book vendors that have founded churches in the last 40 years.

Since it makes you feel good to put them down, stick to arguing that they're just SJW's--at least that claim makes sense.

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#113081 - 06/07/17 03:00 AM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: LoneWolf78]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2706
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: LoneWolf78
Sadly, this is nearly prophetic when one considers this podcast episode of The Devil You Know.

I endured only a couple of minutes of this; I gather it was an argument about selling a Gilmore conclave souvenir coin on eBay?

As an historical trivia aside, I came up with the idea of calling the Church's regional gatherings "conclaves". The LaVeys and I were kicking around some names prior to the 1st Eastern in Centerville, Ohio 1971. I had just finished a term as National Commander of the Eagle Scout Honor Society, the Knights of Dunamis, and we used the term "conclave", so I suggested that. We thought it was a bit cute to borrow from the BSA. ;\)

The Church held either 2 or 3 Eastern and 1 Western conclave before it shut down. We were going to shoot for a 1st International in 1975 in Toronto; I'd negotiated with an elegant old castle - Casa Loma, I think its name was. It had a great pipe organ, so would have been glorious for everyone to hear Anton play live [Diane and I were going to record it]. Also I was friends with a geek from Raytheon in Santa Barbara, and he was going to come up with a triangulated laser projector (very avant in those days). Anton was going to invoke Satan in the main ritual, and suddenly He was going to materialize as a giant 3D hologram, We were taking bets on how many members were going to say "Cool!" vs. bolting for the door. \:D

The Temple of Set has had 36 Internationals to date - all over the world from Hawaii to Helsinki and Prague. I've lost count of the regionals and Euroclaves. We don't pass out souvenir coins, however. \:\(

Re the podcast: I don't mind anyone's having a good time at his comfort level. It's just that this one was pretty knuckle-dragging, including for the original Church past its first couple of years. As recounted in COS, Anton was emphatic about being ever more selective, especially for the Priesthood:

 Originally Posted By: Letter, Anton LaVey to M. Aquino 1/6/72
... Just how does one state the following bits of everyday logic?

Every candidate for the Priesthood must serve an apprenticeship at the Central Grotto, during which his behavior is observed under various conditions.

Seminarial preparations and qualification are rigorous for those attempting to enter the priesthood of any other established religion, so why should they not be equally rigid in the Church of Satan? Why should it be easier to become a Priest of Satan than it is to become a Catholic priest, a Jewish rabbi, or a Methodist minister, when a Priest of Satan actually requires a great deal more wisdom, considering his terrestrial commitment? How do we tell them that initiative is wonderful, but that it can never take the place of ability, and that a proficiency in the latter quality will surely have been made manifest in their pre-III° application activities?

Mike, we are dealing with grown-up little boys who wish to be big shots and pathetically think that the rules of the game (verifiable resumés, credit checks, occupational, residential, familial, and emotional stability) do not apply here, but that the passing of a test is all that matters. They simply cannot divorce themselves from the climate of the childhood vacant lot fraternity, though outside the Church they accept the rules of the game from prospective employers, loan companies, etc. without question.

Maybe I’m wrong, but I think a man who bears the portentous title of Priest of Mendes should be able to buy a ticket to San Francisco [not hitchhike], check in at a decent hotel [without depending on the C.G. staff to find him one!], and show other examples of worldly resourcefulness, such as spelling gud, maybe taking the High Priest and High Priestess out for a hot dog, and additional intellectual feats and social graces.

I was once astounded at the effrontery of many aspirants to the Priesthood; now I have simply become inured to such copious amounts of cheekiness. Clearly what our problem children of the Church lack most is introspection and genuine self-evaluation. I base my standards of tact, protocol, and true respect for those I feel deserve it on the very selfish premise that “it’s the only way I ever got anywhere!”

Perhaps I have read too many Horatio Alger novels, but in this epic, as in all, the Devil is a gentleman who knows how to say “sir”, address a fellow as “mister” even if the man’s a garbage man (sanitation engineer), praise others without choking on the words, and generally display the sound and secure ego for which the Prince of Darkness is noted. Contrary as it might seem to most, it takes a great deal of personal pride to be genuinely humble.

These are the things that cannot be - no, should not be - taught to our would-be Priests, for if such qualities are not inherent, the aspirant is a bad risk. These requirements for the Priesthood of Mendes, if so stated, would then combine “Yes, Virginia, there is a Santa Claus” with Emily Post. I dislike hurting anyone’s feelings, but we are well into our Fourth Phase and we’d best toughen our hides.

As I have alluded, we will drop many of our “most dedicated” by the wayside, and umbrages - both small and great - will be freely taken. What we will gain will be infinitely superior, as it has always been. I feel there is now enough of a solid foundation to establish a new and comprehensive set of Priesthood requirements, exclusive of personality traits, which can and should be observed firsthand.

So over the next three years we were, as recounted, increasingly more selective for both admission and the Priesthood. This may explain why we were all so stunned by Anton's surprise sell-out in mid-75.

Since then the Temple has maintained a very meticulous Recognition system. Generally it does its job, but - like the original Church - we have occasionally seen Setians experience "initiatory crisis", reaching a "Peter Principle" point of divinity/responsibility.

The lesson for both the old Church and the new Temple is that Satanic/Setian initiation is not for everyone; indeed for only a very few. Neither institution was/is in the least suited to be a substitute for the mainstream slave religions.

This raises the question: For non-initiate humans, what would be a good religion? I used to suggest Stoicism to the intellectuals, and AMORC for the "occultists" [on the assumption that there they could have some easy-to-understand spooky fun without hurting themselves or others].

My next book, if I'm around long enough to finish it, may be a prospectus for a new "religion for the masses": getting rid of as much of the "useless lumber and wreckage" as possible. Part of the challenge is that for the last 2,000 years people have been terrorized into incomprehensible religions. Something too sensible may not be S/M-exciting enough.
_________________________
Michael A. Aquino

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#113084 - 06/07/17 09:07 AM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: Cyrus]
Bacchus Offline
pledge


Registered: 09/08/16
Posts: 56
 Originally Posted By: Cyrus
Learning, growing as a person, refining coarse ideas, reflecting on areas only noticed by someone with a different perspective, etc...TST has done more in actual, concrete work to mitigate the possibility of theocratic government abuse than any other Satanic organization.


It's good to be dogmatic about what you care about. You don't wan't to be dogmatic about anything only if you are an empty bag...a total relativist, a total skeptic, a nihilist, someone who has not yet found meaning or value in anything including him self.

What I care about is ethical hedonism and egoism because I like my cup of pleasures filled to the rim just as nature intended!

TST is about rebellion against dogmatic thought...but Epicurus was a dogmatic writer of his Canon and LaVey codified the doctrines of CoS. These people were dogmatic about their teachings! There is nothing wrong with that word.

TST is more for SJW types. They believe in "universal justice". I believe there is no such thing. Justice (morals) are determined by social contract and dependent upon time, place and situation. They are also about "universal compassion" and "empathy" (ideas promoted by "major world religions" and globalist educated political class in pursuit of new workers, soldiers and suckers).
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#113085 - 06/07/17 10:20 AM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: Cyrus]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3946
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
 Quote:
they just do the work.


Maybe, but not the devil's work. They are just another outlet of safe impotent protest that appeals to people that would rather complain about problems than solve them.

The costume they have chosen just couldn't fit any worse.
_________________________
RETIRED


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#113089 - 06/07/17 11:45 AM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: Bacchus]
SIN3 Offline
stalker


Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 7064
Loc: Virginia
 Originally Posted By: Bacchus
TST is about rebellion against dogmatic thought...but Epicurus was a dogmatic writer of his Canon and LaVey codified the doctrines of CoS. These people were dogmatic about their teachings! There is nothing wrong with that word.


While dogma isn't a bad word, this is debatable. LaVey included dogma for those that need it, understanding the condition of man. I don't think that alone determines what the CoS is and does. That's more of an outer interpretation of written utterings by people like Gilmore. Gilmore is not the CoS. He is one man expressing ideas based on previously uttered thoughts.
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#113092 - 06/07/17 04:38 PM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: SIN3]
Bacchus Offline
pledge


Registered: 09/08/16
Posts: 56
 Originally Posted By: SIN3
LaVey included dogma for those that need it understanding the condition of man.


That means the entire membership. For what other reason a person of sound mind knowingly joins a certain society based on uttered principles if not out of need and approval of these principles?

It's not as if LaVey or Gilmore forced someone to join like "major world religions" do. And it's not as if they trick people to join by NOT uttering their basic tenets, or by clouding them them in a cryptic or ambiguous language like obscurantists. Even those who do not wish to join CoS should be grateful for this sort of 'in your face' transparency which allows them to make the right decision according to their own preferences - and not join.

 Quote:
I don't think that alone determines what the CoS is and does.


Can you be more specific? What determines an organization if not some set of ideas? What else remains? People (like arms, legs..)? Buildings (bricks, boards, Baphomet statues..)?

 Quote:
That's more of an outer interpretation of written utterings by people like Gilmore. Gilmore is not the CoS. He is one man expressing ideas based on previously uttered thoughts.


This of course is an inversion. People who attack Gilmore and question his prerogative just for enforcing the rules (which is after all his job) make them selves obvious (outer).
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#113093 - 06/07/17 05:27 PM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
LoneWolf78 Offline
member


Registered: 05/21/14
Posts: 431
 Originally Posted By: Michael A.Aquino
I endured only a couple of minutes of this; I gather it was an argument about selling a Gilmore conclave souvenir coin on eBay?


Yes. You are correct. It also gets rather embarrassing when you consider that the one who sounds drunk is a Warlock and one of the hosts (John Shaw) is a reverend. The said Warlock has had to resort to go fund me on several occasions due to financial difficulties and John Shaw? How he got to be a reverend is anyone's guess. Here is a guy who was back on alt.Satanism in the early 2000's bad mouthing the CoS, then tries to sell his jewelry to Gilmore, who referred it to Blanche, who claimed it was cheap and broken, with Shaw ending up calling her a "fat bitch". However, now, Shaw is a reverend and he runs the CoS's "authorized" jewelry store, so go figure.

The other interview that I posted with Peter and Peggy may be of some interest to you. Within the first twenty minutes the ToS is invoked and discussed for a bit. Then around the fifty minute to fifty-four minute mark Peter begins discussing you.

One other important note that I should make here I began this thread on 4/16/2017. One of the criticisms that I leveled was in reference to the original article that I posted where Gilmore says,

 Originally Posted By: Peter Gilmore
However, since Satanism advocates free thought and exploration of what might be of interest to each Satanist, some of our members might choose to examine various forms of occult thought, both past and present, and this is not in any way "forbidden." It is not encouraged, either.


My criticism was as follows,

 Originally Posted By: LoneWolf
So, let's straight. Here is where Peter comes into create a sidestep for himself and by the same token give the gift of freedom.

Ha!

Are CoS members supposed to be grateful that Peter doesn't forbid them free thought and exploration?!

I know that a sucker is born every second, but let's get a little bit real here, ok?


Now, the video that I have been referencing was done on 4/28/2017. Ten days after my OP. Listen to the question at the 1:01:22 mark and then PAY CLOSE ATTENTION to Gilmore's response:

 Originally Posted By: Peter Gilmore
Well, it all depends, on, you know, like, that's very broad concept. Because everybody's allowed to, I mean allowed, I mean their, it's basic fundamental approach to Satanism is that you live the way you want to, that you express yourself the way you want to, we're about freedom and individualism.


Notice how tongue tied he is getting over the concept of allowed. It is almost like he was going to say what he typically would from his cyber throne, "Everybody is allowed to live the way you want to, that you express yourself the way you want to, we're about freedom and individualism (with the implied notion that people couldn't do this for themselves)." However, then he caught himself (who knows, maybe due to something he read) getting tongue tied and trying to (as he does with so many other things) twist it another way.

Finally, it is going around that Peggy is working on a CoS history project. Do you want to guess as to who's books she is rumored to be using due to "meticulous" record keeping?

If you looked in the mirror Dr. Aquino, you would be right.

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#113094 - 06/07/17 05:36 PM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: SIN3]
LoneWolf78 Offline
member


Registered: 05/21/14
Posts: 431
 Originally Posted By: SIN
That's more of an outer interpretation of written utterings by people like Gilmore. Gilmore is not the CoS. He is one man expressing ideas based on previously uttered thoughts.


Quite correct.

He owns the business that has been three times removed from Anton LaVey. He more or less rides coattails of the founder of the said business. And rather than do anything further beyond white-washing the said religion and said founder.

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#113095 - 06/07/17 05:46 PM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: Bacchus]
LoneWolf78 Offline
member


Registered: 05/21/14
Posts: 431
 Originally Posted By: Bacchus
This of course is an inversion. People who attack Gilmore and question his prerogative just for enforcing the rules (which is after all his job) make them selves obvious (outer).


No, I simply attack him for white-washing Anton LaVey and Satanic philosophy.

So, may I ask, have you bought your freedom for $200? Did it give you the bonus of courage to come out of the closet?

While I don't know the answer to the first question, the answer to the second has already been answered.

 Originally Posted By: Bacchus
Since I live in Croatia, a Catholic country I tend to be practical. My parents are (moderate) Catholics so I avoid the subject. My dad knows from our conversations that I am not very fond of Catholic teachings and tend to be more "pagan" or "liberal" minded but I have never came out blatantly as a Satanist since that expression has a shock value and bad connotations.


It sounds as though you would fit right in with Gilmore kiddo.

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#113096 - 06/07/17 05:49 PM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: LoneWolf78]
Creatura Noptii Offline
active member


Registered: 01/02/16
Posts: 922
Loc: Oregon
 Originally Posted By: Cyrus
And you do not see those freedoms being eroded and robbed right in front of our eyes by the theocratic shitbags currently in office? Christian curricula taught openly in schools, women's health care defunded for religious reasons, the health of our kids sold out on the basis of dominionism, etc. Perhaps you think if those actions don't affect you directly, they don't affect anyone else? Perhaps you think this is not a slippery slope?


Alright Miley, listen up. Christianity aside, feminism is a lot more destructive. Masculinity is being systematically terminated.

For the most part, Women's heath care is being de-funded for business and economical purposes. Religion is only a moral excuse. Women are the ones sucking up welfare. I'm not one to hate all women, but I'm no white knight and not so quick like you to jump on any given bandwagon.

It doesn't matter who takes office these days, its a fucking puppet show.

You liberal dipshits have nothing better to do than swallow feminist load. Even on my laziest days I still have more ambition than you people could muster in a year.

Go back to your Portlandia circus.
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Creatură Nopții

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#113097 - 06/07/17 05:58 PM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: Creatura Noptii]
Creatura Noptii Offline
active member


Registered: 01/02/16
Posts: 922
Loc: Oregon
 Originally Posted By: LoneWolf
No, I simply attack him for white-washing Anton LaVey and Satanic philosophy.


You can't find a copy of The Satanic Bible these days without Gilligan's intro. He only briefly mentions Karla LaVey, nothing about The First Satanic Church.

Originally I found this place through her website. I've wanted to attend Black X-Mas just for fun. Was planning to last year as it marked 50 years. Is it still a thing these days?
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Creatură Nopții

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#113098 - 06/07/17 06:15 PM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: Creatura Noptii]
XiaoGui17 Offline
active member


Registered: 10/21/09
Posts: 1185
Loc: Austin, TX
 Originally Posted By: Creatura Noptii
Alright Miley, listen up. Christianity aside, feminism is a lot more destructive. Masculinity is being systematically terminated.

Yes.

 Quote:
For the most part, Women's heath care is being de-funded for business and economical purposes. Religion is only a moral excuse. Women are the ones sucking up welfare.

No!

Children are what qualify women for welfare. Women's healthcare is a euphemism for birth control. Birth control keeps women off welfare. Economically it's a huge net save. A stitch in time. There's really no economic justification for cutting funding to something that saves taxpayers billions in the long run.
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#113099 - 06/07/17 07:44 PM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: XiaoGui17]
Creatura Noptii Offline
active member


Registered: 01/02/16
Posts: 922
Loc: Oregon
The actual fuck? No it doesn't! Women are having kids, taking welfare through no fault divorce laws, and eating up the welfare system. Birth control is not helping the problem with DEAD BEAT MOMS.

On the other hand, men should also stop blowing their loads in women and learn how to pull out correctly. But you won't see that implemented in our sex ed system any-time soon. Nor will you see many HONEST men vs women stats on major issues, be it labour, STDs, income or otherwise. Take away marriage and long term relationships, and you'll see women where they naturally go: to the brothel. Marriage is just systematic prostitution, and its only gotten worse.

*I do wonder what will happen once men get their birth control. No more lying about being on the pill, no more sperm jacking. A new men's procedure would be more effective, its called Vasalgel. Its shown to last over a year in Baboons and rabbits. It would cost far less than women having to take a pill every day, and the complications with Vasalgel are as of now, virtually none. Basically, its a gel injection to block sperm while allowing semenal fluidity.

"Vasalgel is a polymer hydrogel that is injected into the vas deferens (the tube sperm swim through) and blocks sperm. The quick procedure is similar to No-Scalpel Vasectomy (NSV), except the doctor injects the vas deferens with gel, instead of cutting it."

The aim is for this procedure to cost somewhere well below $800 USD. Since it might well last over a year or longer, it'd be a greater thing. As for children, men can always have it backed up.

I think the effect will be better, and give men the over all upper hand.


Edited by Creatura Noptii (06/07/17 08:38 PM)
Edit Reason: edits
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#113100 - 06/07/17 08:38 PM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: LoneWolf78]
samowens84 Offline
member


Registered: 09/29/16
Posts: 198
"While I don't know the answer to the first question, the answer to the second has been answered."

 Originally Posted By: samowens84
 Originally Posted By: Bacchus
 Originally Posted By: samowens84
Lol so what was that bullshit about "courage" if you havent already joined? Are you scared and trying to talk yourself into it? Are you that "scared frightened animal?" ;\)


Courage not the absence of fear or bravado but rather resistance to fear, mastery of fear. The reason why I haven't joined has nothing to do with taking into consideration all the unlikely but still possible risks (like theocratic government taking over and purging all non-Christians).


Courage isnt courage without action. And youre a long way from "mastery." Youre still just a slave.


First question was answered as well. This guy is all talk.

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#113101 - 06/07/17 08:44 PM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: LoneWolf78]
Bacchus Offline
pledge


Registered: 09/08/16
Posts: 56
 Originally Posted By: LoneWolf78
No, I simply attack him for white-washing Anton LaVey and Satanic philosophy.

So, may I ask, have you bought your freedom for $200? Did it give you the bonus of courage to come out of the closet?


You don't think LaVey is badmouthed because of ideas he espoused? You don't think Gilmore is supposed to thwart character assassination attempts against LaVey? Lots of people envy LaVey's public success which has made "Satanism" into something more than horror fiction subject at best and black chronicle news at worst.

Lots of people hate what LaVey created because it dwarfed whatever they try to establish. So what other mean they can employ to destroy the idea they cannot outshine if not character assassinations: Firstly of LaVey, than of Gilmore as his accomplished successor and - as your personal attack against me demonstrates - everyone who can see threw your pretense of "open-mindedness" and sides with CoS.
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#113103 - 06/07/17 10:14 PM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: Bacchus]
LoneWolf78 Offline
member


Registered: 05/21/14
Posts: 431
 Originally Posted By: Bacchus
You don't think LaVey is badmouthed because of ideas he espoused? You don't think Gilmore is supposed to thwart character assassination attempts against LaVey?


There is quite a difference between thwarting character assassination attempts and white-washing the guy.

Here is one example:

Assuming you have The Secret Life of a Satanist, by Blanche Barton, go to pages 237-238. Where Anton LaVey said,

 Originally Posted By: Anton Szandor Lavey
I'd rather be grouped in the company of killers than in the company of wimps.


LaVey also went on to speak highly of James Huberty and Richard Ramirez. In regards to Ramirez, he said specifically,

 Originally Posted By: Anton Szandor LaVey
When I met Richard Ramirez he was the nicest, most polite young man you'd ever want to meet...a model of deportment.



Back when Nikolas Schreck and Zeena were still part of the CoS in good standing, they kept in touch with Ramirez in prison and visited him on occasion.

Now, for the following video featuring Gilmore at the 4:27 mark he is asked about Richard Ramirez. This is his response,

 Originally Posted By: Peter H Gilmore
I have nothing but contempt for somebody like Richard Ramirez and wish that he would have climbed into the bedroom of a Satanic woman who would have shot his sorry ass and stopped his reign of terror.


Quite a difference there, wouldn't you say?

To the best of my knowledge Anton LaVey never claimed to be either a nice man or make apologies or excuses for some of his statements that certainly put him at odds with mainstream society. This is why it is offensive to see Gilmore constantly try to apologize for them. The only thing more disgusting is people who have read the books, read the public records, studied anything they could get their hands on, and called themselves Satanists not calling bullshit on this guy. It shows that they are indeed sheep, followers, and gullible.

 Originally Posted By: Bacchus
of Gilmore as his accomplished successor


You really believe that don't you?

Let's see here, did you know that Blanche Barton wasn't even appointed the High Priestess of the CoS by Anton LaVey. This was not her title at the time of his passing. It didn't become her title until she settled on the business name of the CoS after the hand written will that she produced was challenged by both Karla and Zeena.

By that time, as Dr. Aquino and public records (available to anyone who does their homework) show, the CoS was listed as LaVey's personal business and was granted bankruptcy. So, Blanche got the name of a bankrupted business. She then sold it to the Gilmore group and I am not sure if it has ever been officially bought out of bankruptcy. So you will excuse me while I have a nice hard laugh about Gilmore being Anton LaVey's "most accomplished successor." According to someone who knew him well, Anton called Gilmore a "useful idiot" behind his back. I would agree on that from Anton's perspective at that time.


 Originally Posted By: Bacchus
as your personal attack against me demonstrates


What attack?

If you are ashamed of something that you posted before that is on you not on me.






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#113104 - 06/08/17 02:25 AM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: LoneWolf78]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2706
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: LoneWolf78
it is going around that Peggy is working on a CoS history project.

Somewhere around the 2nd Edition of my CoS, Sharon Densley came up with a competitor of the same name and the same cover design. I think it's long since out-ot-pfrint, though used copies are probably findable.

That effort didn't bother me then, and this one doesn't bother me now. The worth of any book is in what it has to say, not in what it advertises itself to be. I wrote CoS over more than a decade and 8 editions with one thing in mind: to recapture the original Church for the reader who was not there to experience it first-hand. So I tried to come at it from as many perspectives as possible, which explains all the letters, articles, appendices, footnotes, photos, etc.

I don't have either the access nor the interest to profile what Gilmore has done with his business, so if he & Peggy want to write it up, that's their affair.

As to the notion of dabbling in "other occultisms", the question is "Why?" If it's just for amusement, no harm done.

It's when you set out to do serious research, tackle the big questions, etc. that you don't want to waste time on blind alleys if you can help it. One of the main objectives of a university education is to teach discernment in research, so that when you write a paper, it's substance, not BS.

This is all the more important in the Internet era, when we are awash in BS aka "fake news". And regrettably from my point of view, universities are not putting as much emphasis on teaching "scholarship" as in my day. Today it's a frantic rush for job marketable skills, which is understandable in this economy.

The second half of the SB consists of the Enochian Keys. If you're on a Gilmore forum, ask the participants to explain what they are, where they came from, and what they're good for. Unless they quote the analyses in CoS & ToS, I suspect you'll just get a lot of glazed eyes.

I think I mentioned elsewhere on 600C that when Anton and I were once chatting and I asked him why the EK were so misrepresented in the SB - because he was certainly smart enough to know their real backstory - he grinned and said that he just needed something incomprehensible and spooky to accent Satanic rituals. Similar to the Catholic Church's use of Latin to make its stuff sound more mysterious.

I think it was Sprague de Camp who some decades ago came out with a fancy hardback "Necronomicon", red leather cover, and a book-length text in Arabic. But if you looked closely, there were only 4 pages, which were then repeated several times to fatten up the book. It was so you'd have something to pull down from your bookcase to wow clueless visitors. \:D

I created the "Yuggothic" language for the two HPL rituals in SR out of thin air during coffeefbreaks while I was on the USA Armor School faculty in 1971. Worked up a rough vocabulary & grammar to make it workable. What Anton and I didn't expect was how it would freak out the HPL community; that's why I finally wrote the Nyctalops article explaining it. ;\)
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Michael A. Aquino

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#113106 - 06/08/17 08:26 AM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: LoneWolf78]
Bacchus Offline
pledge


Registered: 09/08/16
Posts: 56
I am not so well informed about the intrigues behind the scenes but I won't take anything stated for granted without hearing the opposite side which is apparently either absent or dormant here.

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The Satanic High Mass

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#113109 - 06/08/17 09:59 AM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: Bacchus]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3946
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
 Originally Posted By: Bacchus
I am not so well informed about the intrigues behind the scenes but I won't take anything stated for granted without hearing the opposite side which is apparently either absent or dormant here.



Ya not too many CoS types here. They usually split when they realize there is no ass to kiss or line to toe.
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RETIRED


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#113113 - 06/08/17 04:41 PM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: Dan_Dread]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2706
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread
Ya not too many cos types here. They usually split when they realize there is no ass to kiss or line to toe.

Not to mention being pounced upon by Mr. D.D. even if, like me, you are infallible and omniscient.

The only difference between Dan and a Rottweiler is that after awhile the Rottweiler lets go. ;\)
_________________________
Michael A. Aquino

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#113114 - 06/08/17 05:40 PM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3946
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Lol.

Rottweiler attacks build character.

Besides, you have to be either a complete moron or a sublime trickster to attract my attention these days. The former are fodder, and the latter best kept honest. ;\)
_________________________
RETIRED


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#113115 - 06/08/17 05:40 PM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
Bacchus Offline
pledge


Registered: 09/08/16
Posts: 56
Inadvertently you've proved Gilmore right about cutting down diversity in his ranks. It also proves my original point about a man being a pack animal. Diversity is not the strength of the pack. Once the pack senses alien blood it attacks without mercy and the leader should encourage this!
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#113116 - 06/08/17 07:00 PM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
LoneWolf78 Offline
member


Registered: 05/21/14
Posts: 431
 Originally Posted By: Michael A.Aquino
Somewhere around the 2nd Edition of my CoS, Sharon Densley came up with a competitor of the same name and the same cover design. I think it's long since out-ot-pfrint, though used copies are probably findable.

That effort didn't bother me then, and this one doesn't bother me now. The worth of any book is in what it has to say, not in what it advertises itself to be. I wrote CoS over more than a decade and 8 editions with one thing in mind: to recapture the original Church for the reader who was not there to experience it first-hand. So I tried to come at it from as many perspectives as possible, which explains all the letters, articles, appendices, footnotes, photos, etc.

I don't have either the access nor the interest to profile what Gilmore has done with his business, so if he & Peggy want to write it up, that's their affair.


Dr. Aquino, Sharon's book is um, well, nowhere near as detailed as your own. And objectivity? Well, I don't know how objective that a live in girlfriend can be, but there you go. \:D

Overall though, I do hope that my main point was not lost on you:

Consider how many years that the CoS has badmouthed you. How that in their eyes you are a traitor with no credibility, yet, yet, Peggy is using YOU'RE books for reference as to her little history project, due to your "meticulous"-her word, kept records. How is that one for irony?

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#113117 - 06/08/17 07:04 PM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: Bacchus]
LoneWolf78 Offline
member


Registered: 05/21/14
Posts: 431
 Originally Posted By: Bacchus
Inadvertently you've proved Gilmore right about cutting down diversity in his ranks. It also proves my original point about a man being a pack animal. Diversity is not the strength of the pack. Once the pack senses alien blood it attacks without mercy and the leader should encourage this!


Hmm...no. You seem to be proving that Gilmore breeds herd mentality, faithful followers who will ask him how high when he says jump.

Real strength is calling bullshit where you see it......ESPECIALLY if it is from a so called leader.

Your defense of Gilmore is very Christian though. Keep going, it gives me a laugh. \:D

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#113118 - 06/08/17 07:39 PM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: LoneWolf78]
Bacchus Offline
pledge


Registered: 09/08/16
Posts: 56
 Originally Posted By: LoneWolf78
Gilmore breeds herd mentality...Your defense of Gilmore is very Christian though


It follows from human nature, biology...subjects too delicate for departing boomers like Aquino.

Their world is finally approaching it's inevitable end.
The new world will be a tribalist one and a lot more stern toward shit stirrers.
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#113119 - 06/08/17 07:45 PM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: Bacchus]
LoneWolf78 Offline
member


Registered: 05/21/14
Posts: 431
 Originally Posted By: Bacchus
It stems from human nature, biology...subjects too delicate for departing boomers and like Aquino.
Their world is finally approaching it's inevitable end.


Is this why that Peggy is using Dr. Aquino's books for reference on her history project or is it just because her and her husband were Johnny come lately's who really have nothing to go on beyond a few items that Sharon was able to lift from the Black House?

 Originally Posted By: Bacchus
The new world will be a tribalist one and a lot more stern toward shit stirrers.


What a unique way of saying that the world is moving ever forward in the direction of herd mentality. How does that mix with Satanism? I am genuinely interested to know the answer to this one.

Also, you never bothered to answer whether or not you bought your so called freedom for a measly two-hundred bucks. Please do so.

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#113120 - 06/08/17 08:12 PM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: LoneWolf78]
Bacchus Offline
pledge


Registered: 09/08/16
Posts: 56
 Originally Posted By: LoneWolf78
What a unique way of saying that the world is moving ever forward in the direction of herd mentality. How does that mix with Satanism? I am genuinely interested to know the answer to this one.


Haven't you heard LaVey saying something like when the new inquisition arrives the true Satanist will have nothing to fear for HE will be the inquisitor? What do you aspire to become? A killer or a martyr?

 Quote:
Also, you never bothered to answer whether or not you bought your so called freedom for a measly two-hundred bucks. Please do so.


I don't need "freedom". I prefer my place in the pecking order.
_________________________
The Satanic High Mass

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#113121 - 06/08/17 10:18 PM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: Bacchus]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2706
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: Bacchus
Inadvertently you've proved Gilmore right about cutting down diversity in his ranks.

I'm in favor of diversity where it is characterized by sound research and reasoning. Without that you have mere parroting of officially sanctioned dogma. Absent sound research standards, you've just got babble.

Perhaps I am a bit too picky here, but "ranks" connotes obedient formations, as in the Army. The phrase usually heard about the Temple of Set's atmosphere is "herding cats". \:D
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Michael A. Aquino

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#113122 - 06/08/17 10:48 PM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: Bacchus]
LoneWolf78 Offline
member


Registered: 05/21/14
Posts: 431
 Originally Posted By: Bacchus
Haven't you heard LaVey saying something like when the new inquisition arrives the true Satanist will have nothing to fear for HE will be the inquisitor?


Not off hand. Share your source please. Though I do recall him saying that the real Witches were sleeping with their inquisitors. However, what does that have to do with individuality vs herd mentality? Perhaps that is the new Gilmore twist: It is better be part of the herd than to stand on your own?

 Originally Posted By: Bacchus
What do you aspire to become? A killer or a martyr?


You present a false dichotomy here. A killer can be a martyr and a martyr can also be a killer. There are also killers who do so for their own selfish enjoyment. Likewise, there are martyrs who would rather be killed than to kill. So, again I have no idea what if any thought you are putting into your responses at this point.

If you are only talking about killers as in a murdering kind of sense, go up and see my post earlier. I posted sentiments expressed by Anton LaVey regarding being lumped in with killers and specifically Richard Ramirez. Then I also posted Gilmore's sentiments towards the exact same killer. I also provided the video of Gilmore. So at this point, you may ask yourself, who is accurate? Did Sharon just create LaVey's quote out of thin air? Was LaVey himself lying to try to play the tough guy? Or could it have been honest to Satan sentiments expressed by Anton LaVey? Once you have made your conclusion to that, then compare and contrast with what Gilmore said. I think you will notice a (coughs) break in communication. ;\)

 Originally Posted By: Bacchus
I don't need "freedom". I prefer my place in the pecking order.


I already knew that you are a sheep. I was just wondering if you paid two-hundred bucks to Gilmore so he could tell you that you are free? It's a legitimate question.

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#113126 - 06/09/17 06:07 PM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: Bacchus]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3946
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
 Quote:

Their world is finally approaching it's inevitable end.
The new world will be a tribalist one and a lot more stern toward shit stirrers


Shit stirrers..you man like the sort of guy that would have the gall to start an organization thumbing it's nose both at the prevailing religion and the prevailing culture?
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RETIRED


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#113127 - 06/09/17 06:38 PM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: LoneWolf78]
Creatura Noptii Offline
active member


Registered: 01/02/16
Posts: 922
Loc: Oregon
Ok.

If its a devil you need, I'm obliged.

 Originally Posted By: Baccus
The new world will be a tribalist one and a lot more stern toward shit stirrers.


The strongest tribes are the ones composed of self-sufficient individuals. In this world of self-pussification your so called 'pecking order' is a retard circle-jerk.

I for one am a patriot. I believe in owning guns, freedom of speech, whisky and fist-fights.

 Quote:
Their world is finally approaching it's inevitable end.


Here's why:

 Quote:
I don't need "freedom". I prefer my place in the pecking order.


A doomed generation if there was one.

"I kick you in the brains when you get down to kneel
and pray, you pray to your god"


You don't see 'em writing lyrics like that any-more.
_________________________
Creatură Nopții

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#113131 - 06/09/17 09:25 PM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: Creatura Noptii]
Bacchus Offline
pledge


Registered: 09/08/16
Posts: 56
 Originally Posted By: Creatura Noptii
I for one am a patriot. I believe in owning guns, freedom of speech, whisky and fist-fights.


This youtuber said it right: sucking the big American cock of freedom is not much different from sucking Great Leader's cock.

...or indeed God's cock since - like God - freedom can't be smoked, or fucked, or used as a rifle because it doesn't fucking exist! There is no freedom, not in America or anywhere else. Never was and never will be.

Precisely because America is a proposition nation founded on empty phrases of Constitution (freedom) patriotards like you are now reduced to nothing but canon fodder, sent to die abroad for the EMPIRE that is not even yours! It's there for the corporate geeks, imported slave-labor, state-employed bitches, shlomo professors, political faggots and minorities. Not for you tough guy, not for your posterity!
_________________________
The Satanic High Mass

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#113133 - 06/09/17 10:02 PM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: Bacchus]
LoneWolf78 Offline
member


Registered: 05/21/14
Posts: 431
Mr. Bacchus,

It seems that there is a GLARING discrepancy between your obvious love of Gilmore's business and Satanism.

Looking over your profile, I couldn't help but notice that in your hobbies you list,

 Originally Posted By: Bacchus
LaVeyan Satanism with an accent on it's Epicurean philosophical roots


Now, in the event that you should try to change that, I have immortalized it for you:



You're welcome. \:\)

Now, moving onto business, I challenge you to go to a Gilmore infested website and use the term LaVeyan. You will be given the grand welcome of rudeness, group recognition of your being a "pseudo", played with for a bit, and shown the door.

That said, here is where I may differ from other scholars: While the Gilmore camp happens to HATE the term LaVeyan (I guess because it reminds RePeter Gilmore that he clearly hasn't got out from under LaVey's shadow), I happen to think that they are not worthy of the term. All that Gilmore has done has rode the coattails of someone who was creative and charismatic while offering nothing of substance himself. (Save yourself the money on his Satanic Scriptures. There is nothing there that he hasn't already driveled all over the CoS webpage).

So, LaVeyan?

Nope.

The CoS ain't worthy of that name.

However, I won't discourage you to go on a Gilmore page and test out what I told you. ;\)

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#113134 - 06/09/17 10:26 PM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: Bacchus]
Creatura Noptii Offline
active member


Registered: 01/02/16
Posts: 922
Loc: Oregon
It is you and your ilk who are founded on empty phrases that go fuck all nowhere.

 Quote:
Not for you tough guy


Oh yes it is. See, the American standard is that you earn your keep. America is going through a phase of weakness right now, but despite our flaws, we're still Number One. Your either jealous because you don't live here, or you can't admit that your incapable of holding your own in a country of individual pursuit.

 Quote:
state-employed bitches, shlomo professors, political faggots


Like you? A fucking bitch in a faggot pecking order? Maybe you'd like to go to a little safe space in Canada with compelled speech. By all means. But it won't save you from my red-blooded American vulgarity.

Difference between my tribe and yours, is that while they're nice to have, we don't need membership cards.

We have guns.

...and motorcycles, rock 'n roll, and of course Star Trek.

Now go suck a Gilmore dick. Your free to do as much.
_________________________
Creatură Nopții

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#113135 - 06/09/17 11:45 PM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: Creatura Noptii]
Bacchus Offline
pledge


Registered: 09/08/16
Posts: 56
 Originally Posted By: Creatura Noptii
Oh yes it is. See, the American standard is that you earn your keep.


How much do YOU earn? You sound like someone fit enough for menial jobs. So tell me, does hard work really pays off as they say?

 Originally Posted By: Creatura Noptii
America is going through a phase of weakness right now, but despite our flaws, we're still Number One.


Number one in what?

 Originally Posted By: Creatura Noptii
Your either jealous because you don't live here, or you can't admit that your incapable of holding your own in a country of individual pursuit.


I'm so jealous because I don't yet live in a diverse jungle where all the minorities enjoy more favors from the institutions than me. No wonder you sound so edgy online since you've been forced to eat shit since kindergarten.

 Originally Posted By: Creatura Noptii
Like you? A fucking bitch in a faggot pecking order?


I've actually left a lucrative corporate carrier because I don't stand that (unnatural) order.

 Originally Posted By: Creatura Noptii
Maybe you'd like to go to a little safe space in Canada with compelled speech. By all means. But it won't save you from my red-blooded American vulgarity.


It's not American vulgarity or machismo that I find repulsive as much as stupidity. Remember, the same midwestern population that elected a modest nationalist Trump elected Obama. Same godfearin' cornpones. Same dumb rednecks like your self.

 Originally Posted By: Creatura Noptii
We have guns.


I guess you could repel your ghetto antipodes in a 'shit hits the fan' scenario (assuming the army remains neutral) but that's not the real strength of a nation. The only reason America can afford moronic social experiments is favorable geographic position which makes you relatively safe from outside but soft and rotting from the inside. If America bordered with Germany, Russia or Japan I'd put my bets on these more collectivist, more Spartan societies.
_________________________
The Satanic High Mass

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#113137 - 06/10/17 01:35 AM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: Creatura Noptii]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3259
Whatever became of the CoS in recent times... I can't be bothered.
They are no longer the number one revenue nor have the standing to boost about past accomplishments.

If someone is willing to join their little congregation then it is up to them for the follow-up.
As such it would be wrong to deify the idea of a "Satanic individual" while most of the self-professed ones generally are still sucking the company's/College/society's/mom's teat.

It's safe to assume that at least 3/4 of the people are still within a pecking order... and the other 1/4 probably getting screwed by their customers in one way or another.

 Originally Posted By: Creatura Noptii
It is you and your ilk who are founded on empty phrases that go fuck all nowhere.


Now, where it concerns that part...
I believe legislation and jurisdiction in the U.S. is so important by reason the general populace, at large, lacks a bit of common sense and needs to rely on others to cover their shit through lawsuits. It is well-known in the rest of the world that the U.S. is the country where doofusses sue companies because they didn't include the disclaimer "cats cannot be speed-dried in the microwave".

Not to mention the many discussions being held where it concerns the bill of rights no one seems to get a general gist of..

But hey.. GO 'MURICA!!
_________________________
Ut vivat, crescat et floreat

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#113138 - 06/10/17 02:07 AM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: Dimitri]
Creatura Noptii Offline
active member


Registered: 01/02/16
Posts: 922
Loc: Oregon
 Quote:
So tell me, does hard work really pays off as they say?


Yeah. It does. When I make it so.

 Quote:
Number one in what?


GO FUCK YOURSELF.

 Quote:
It's safe to assume that at least 3/4 of the people are still within a pecking order... and the other 1/4 probably getting screwed by their customers in one way or another.


So the world turns.

 Quote:
But hey.. GO 'MURICA!!


Damn strait.

We got CCR.
_________________________
Creatură Nopții

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#113139 - 06/10/17 04:24 AM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: Dimitri]
LoneWolf78 Offline
member


Registered: 05/21/14
Posts: 431
 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
Whatever became of the CoS in recent times... I can't be bothered.


I know what you mean. But sometimes, sometimes it is just fun to engage in blood sport, such as with our friend Bacchus.

Plus, there is also the optimistic part of me that hopes that some folks will see this site, the posts, etc, and educate themselves.
When Dan Dread said this earlier on,

 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread
Ya not too many CoS types here. They usually split when they realize there is no ass to kiss or line to toe.


I couldn't have said it better myself.

Likewise, when Dan asked me this,

 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread
LOL, did they kick you out or something?


back at the beginning of this thread, it was a good question, but the implication was wrong. What brought me here was the fact that I have NEVER been the type to take anything at face value. That just isn't my style. I studied about anything I could get my hands on when it came to the CoS, what it was, and eventually whet it became. There were just certain claims that folks are now making that didn't go along with the CoS's past.

On the other hand, I had heard all of the bad mouthing of the CoS in regards to Dr. Aquino.

I do not believe in censorship in any arena. Especially from an organization that claims that they champion individuality, freedom, and the alternative to herd mentality. However, when on any of their forums there are certain topics, such as detractors, former movers and shakers within the old organization, etc that are all but forbidden to be brought up. Hell, these days there is a squabble if you buy your Baphomet medallion from anyone other than their authorized seller. Also, they claim to be the only show in town, the one true Church of Satan.

Now, let's put just a tiny amount of thought into this shall we? While I am sure that most here are very familiar with what I have just described, where else have we heard about this kind of behavior? Oh, right, that would be the churches of Christianity. So, bringing me to my second issue, hypocrisy. I can't stand it.

As it is, I found this place. When I saw that Dr. Aquino was on here it was an added bonus. I wanted to hear the other side. I wanted to explore the "forbidden" names and topics of the current CoS. After all, when one side does not allow certain things to be discussed, whether they are hiding something or not, telling the truth or not, becomes irrelevant. Because by not allowing the open discussion and free flow of ideas it certainly looks as though someone is hiding something or being dishonest. It's a loss of credibility in my book.

I am pleased to say that I have not seen that on these boards. Unlike Gilmore, or Anton LaVey before him, Dr. Aquino does come on here he has told his story, made his case, put himself up for scrutiny and accepted challenges. Whether you agree with him or disagree with him that makes him a stand up guy.

On the topic of censorship. I have yet to see anyone censored for bringing up subjects that may not agree with some of the posters on here. Hell, I think that there are quite a few (myself included) that enjoy the rough and tumble from time to time. The only time I have seen anyone banned has been when they have either been a troll or blatantly stupid. I have seen the CoS discussed on here, as well as ToS, ToV, TST, O9A, and I am sure that there are others that I am missing. The point is that all is discussed, nothing is censored and there isn't the sanctimonious attitude of there only being one true way.

Hypocrisy? I haven't seen that either. It says, "The 600 Club Community of Satanism & the Occult". It seems like it is true to what it espouses to be.

There is one thing though that I haven't seen on here: I have not seen one self identified current member of the CoS or it's priesthood come out of their "safe zones" to these boards to put their opinions up and see if they can stand a challenge.

Now, that would be entertaining.

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#113740 - 08/04/17 03:39 PM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: LoneWolf78]
97and107 Offline
member


Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 280
Loc: New Mexico
I never understood why if the Church of Satan wants to get away from spirituality so much, why don't they start with knocking off the word "Church" from their organization...

I know for myself and other sinister types that it's a real turnoff and everything they ever do or say is always going to be overshadowed by that gimmick. It was shocking back in the 60's and 70's, now, it is the joke.

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#113743 - 08/04/17 04:59 PM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: 97and107]
LoneWolf78 Offline
member


Registered: 05/21/14
Posts: 431
I think it is all a part of Peter Gilmore's identity crisis. This is reflected not only of his back peddling and white washing of Anton LaVey, but also in his appearance.

Peter Gilmore has sported so many different looks since he has been in the CoS that it is hard to keep up with. I have seen him with his head shaved, short haired, only a mustache, crew cut, big beard, school boy hair cut and a Santa Clause beard. Not to mention his eyebrows have seen a drastic change. I mean he has to be 60 years old, yet he still is always changing his appearance. This is reflective of how he runs the CoS really.

After he founded the CoS, you never saw Anton LaVey change his appearance.

Since Dr. Aquino has been in the public eye he has not changed his appearance.

Then again, these men both understood their roles and were secure. Which is more than the state of the CoS as it is today.

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#113745 - 08/04/17 05:23 PM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: LoneWolf78]
97and107 Offline
member


Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 280
Loc: New Mexico
Yeah I guess "The Satanic Institute" doesn't infer a priesthood of control so much as a cooperative mood...

Churches are all about control, groupthink and hierarchies... the Church of Satan is no different.

Forbidden topics should be the first red flag!

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#113758 - 08/05/17 01:27 PM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: 97and107]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2706
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: 97and107
Churches are all about control, groupthink and hierarchies... the Church of Satan is no different. Forbidden topics should be the first red flag!

Agreed of course with regard to conventional religions. Since they are based on lies, they can't tolerate them being exposed or questioned.

In the 1966-75 Church of Satan and 1975+ Temple of Set, there are no forbidden topics - except for advocacy of criminal actions such as child or animal harm.

The Priesthood in both of these also did/does not see itself as a "control" group, but rather a resource and advice one. Once again the III°+ is expected to take care that affiliated individuals do not jeapodize others, or the Church/Temple, by unethical or illegal actions.
_________________________
Michael A. Aquino

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#113760 - 08/06/17 01:02 AM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
97and107 Offline
member


Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 280
Loc: New Mexico
 Originally Posted By: Michael A.Aquino
 Originally Posted By: 97and107
Churches are all about control, groupthink and hierarchies... the Church of Satan is no different. Forbidden topics should be the first red flag!

Agreed of course with regard to conventional religions. Since they are based on lies, they can't tolerate them being exposed or questioned.

In the 1966-75 Church of Satan and 1975+ Temple of Set, there are no forbidden topics - except for advocacy of criminal actions such as child or animal harm.

The Priesthood in both of these also did/does not see itself as a "control" group, but rather a resource and advice one. Once again the III°+ is expected to take care that affiliated individuals do not jeapodize others, or the Church/Temple, by unethical or illegal actions.


Alright, so, a Priesthood that is composed of walking encyclopedias and counselors.

Why not call them teachers and counselors? If it's due to the religious aspect, then we're back to religious ideas.

"Setians believe that Set is the one real god and that he has aided humanity by giving them a questioning intellect, the "Black Flame", which distinguishes them from other animal species."

So, what's the difference between the god El Shaddai claiming to Abraham he is the one true God and giving them the directive of the Covenant?

If that's a lie, then why is Set and the Black Flame not-a-lie?

It seems to me that that's a bit like the pot calling the kettle black.

I'm probably one of the only "Satanists" who actually like El Shaddai/Haa'shem, which is weird to me, since, Satanists seem to share so many of her qualities (the formula YHVH comes out as female in the bigrams) I find it harder and harder to call myself a Satanist with a straight face, considering the specialists in dumbology that seem to have made it their cozy home *cough* ONA *cough*

If there were one thing I would change about theistic Satanist thinking is this division between oldschool monotheism and newschool monotheism. This is the result of the Osirian cultic meme, the dead and dying God, which is repulsive, but then we have El Shaddai whose name is etymologically connected to Hebrew and Akkadian words signifying *Desolation* *Mountains* *Wilderness* and Setians don't immediately see the correlation to their own god there?

Certainly Satanism may be here for a long time, no thanks to *Satanists* but if the Setians stop playing this by the xian rules then they may have a chance at keeping it going. Sinister knowledge itself will keep plugging along either way. We're certainly too smart for pigeonholing of any kind.

But if Setians are going to play the monotheism card, yet regard the Abrahamic concept of monotheism through the lense of Christianity, they've already lost. They've put one of their best areas of research in the camp of their enemy, and cut off their own feet before they've even begun investigating what is going on there.

There is No God but Man...

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#117177 - 10/13/18 09:05 PM Re: As The CoS Drifts Further From Satan..... [Re: LoneWolf78]
BelialofTheNorth Offline
lurker


Registered: 10/10/18
Posts: 4
Loc: Tennessee
An interesting perspective.

Perhaps not 100% accurate; but certainly well referenced, and it has always been quite clear that Peter Gilmore is a far cry from Anton LaVey.

All things considered, my assessment of your position is: Fair enough.
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"This isn't Wall Street, this is Hell! We have a little something called Integrity!"

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