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#112659 - 05/01/17 03:05 PM Re: Islamic Incest [Re: Sabrina27]
CanisMachina42 Offline
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 Quote:
You don't require a religious person to get to know morals. Intuitively, you can objectify the killing of innocents as morally wrong.


And I am addressing why that is.

The Euthyphro Dilemma (I looked it up) is not what I'm getting at. That speaks to things like the following:

"Do the police hate the ghetto because it is mistrustful, or is the ghetto only mistrustful because it is hated by the police."

Circular logic does nothing here.

What I'm ACTUALLY saying is:

Does Man have morality because of a God, or does man have instinct towards self preservation, which becomes adaptive behavior that later gets represented as morality when it's finally written down?

It nicely describes why one civilization (like Plato's) can condone fucking 12 year old boys, and many of the subsequent civilizations did not.

Because that behavior falls under "B" and not "A", Pedophilia transitioned from "good" to "bad" along "moral" lines. 

 Quote:
There is a third alternative. A morally stable God, a supreme being who will not arbitrary change His mind about goodness, compassion and the evil of sexual misconduct. Such a God always commands good because His character & nature are good." So His commands are good because it's the derivatives of the Divine will. And the divine will is he is good.


This does not apply. It is still an example of "B". 
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#112668 - 05/02/17 10:09 AM Re: Islamic Incest [Re: CanisMachina42]
Sabrina27 Offline
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Registered: 01/21/17
Posts: 158
I don't want to make useless arguments before knowing what are we exactly arguing about. Let me ask you this before we take this further. From where do you believe morals and ethics originated from?
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#112676 - 05/02/17 10:21 PM Re: Islamic Incest [Re: Sabrina27]
duhsquidbilly Offline
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Registered: 01/07/16
Posts: 38
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 Quote:
@duhsquidbilly (hope I spelled that right) You people have very complex names just as the dimwit Uberman whatever it is.


Dimwit by association? I accept that compliment, and hope to encourage your fucktardery whenever possible. However my postulations for your surmisings and presuppositions are that you just read sbit that is not there. http://www.lovethispic.com/uploaded_images/122989-Fucktard.jpg


Edited by duhsquidbilly (05/02/17 10:25 PM)
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#112681 - 05/04/17 02:51 AM Re: Islamic Incest [Re: Sabrina27]
CanisMachina42 Offline
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 Quote:
From where do you believe morals and ethics originated from?


Illustrated with a time line.

10,000 BCE - "Climate change". The area credited as "The cradle of Civilization" lay on a latitude, that due to Earth's tilt 13,000 years ago, was a lot cooler and wetter.  (The Sahara Desert was savanna). The Nomadic Clans followed the water as the climate dried.

7,000-5,000 BCE - First civilizations converge around river valleys in the now arid areas ranging from Egypt to Iran and started farming.

* It is around this point that a primarily "clan-centric" approach became incomplete, now needing an element for social interaction outside their clan (as a survival strategy).

7,000 - 5,000 BCE - A new "social" approach is passed on and adapted to. The ethics arose as a way for transactions to occur in "equilibrium".

4,000 BCE - Written language (developed to track transactions) starts to provide a snapshot into man's "ethos" often represented as myth or parable. Through a natural morphology each civilization's code tailored itself based on need.

Such as:  "The Code of Ur-Nammu" (2,100 BCE.)

This is what turns a natural ethos into an artificial one. "Moral" and "Criminal" codes attempt to convey that natural behavior as a means to regulate the society itself.

It promotes cooperation, but at the same time feeds the still present clan-centric thinking in the form of an ever-mutating dictate of how "others" should behave. 

If there is still confusion, here's an example with LIONS.

 Mutual of Omaha Narrator: "The younger male will have to wait his turn to feed on the gazelle until the older more dominant animals have their fill."

The behavior suggests a "respect for elders" is imitated and ingrained in most higher mammals.

If the lions evolved language their own "moral" code may be written as:

"Honor thy older members of the pride."

So to answer your question:  "morality" as we know it today exists as the result of earth's tilt.
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#112692 - 05/06/17 12:29 PM Re: Islamic Incest [Re: CanisMachina42]
Sabrina27 Offline
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Registered: 01/21/17
Posts: 158
I really don't know if I should respond to you or not. Should I or not?
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#112710 - 05/08/17 12:15 PM Re: Islamic Incest [Re: CanisMachina42]
SIN3 Offline
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 Originally Posted By: dogmachine
"morality" as we know it today exists as the result of earth's tilt.


What about the moral and ethical codes unknown to us? Are you saying that forcing people to cooperate created them? As if there were none in existence in smaller, roaming, tribal families?

How do you explain burial goods of Prehistory? That, at the very least, shows us that prior to a written record, the earliest homos believed things.
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#112712 - 05/08/17 02:07 PM Re: Islamic Incest [Re: SIN3]
CanisMachina42 Offline
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And what do elephants believe that leads them to "bury" their dead? Am I suppose to buy that Nomadic Joe belived in an afterlife because he was unearthed next to some pottery? One has to make an associative leap and assume it's rooted in superstitious belief.

Their purpose could have been, "People deserve to buried with their stuff because it's theirs." With no more significant a mystical purpose.

I'd say it's more telling of "mourning" and respect for the dead being an inclination. But you're right, maybe that is the predecessor of "afterlife" conception. A behavior that later modified itself into a set of death rites.
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#112736 - 05/10/17 11:53 AM Re: Islamic Incest [Re: CanisMachina42]
SIN3 Offline
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Registered: 05/14/13
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 Originally Posted By: CanisMachina42
And what do elephants believe that leads them to "bury" their dead? Am I suppose to buy that Nomadic Joe belived in an afterlife because he was unearthed next to some pottery? One has to make an associative leap and assume it's rooted in superstitious belief.


Apples to shoes. An elephant isn't a Homo. Burial Goods don't by very presence orchestrate a particular belief. It only demonstrates that beliefs may have been present. Baby steps to understanding the world the way it actually is vs. how one believes it to be.


 Quote:
Their purpose could have been, "People deserve to buried with their stuff because it's theirs." With no more significant a mystical purpose.

I'd say it's more telling of "mourning" and respect for the dead being an inclination. But you're right, maybe that is the predecessor of "afterlife" conception. A behavior that later modified itself into a set of death rites.


All things mystery, may be one day demystified but until that time, Homos do weird things. All well documented.

On a personal level, I don't mourn the dead. Never have. This Anti-Nomos has always put me with odds with people. Mourning is a weird process, I'd chalk it up to the other weird belief based things man does. Mourning isn't just chronic sadness, there are rituals and ceremony, a complete culture dedicated to remembering the dead.

Memorial Day is right around the corner and it's the 21st century. Just sayin'

May 8th marks rheinwiesenlager, I post about it every year. Sacred Cows and all of that. According to mainstream culture, this event should be forgotten and only recognition of the Holocaust should be memorialized. There is an ethic/morality at work there. Just me with my dirty finger in the holy water. Just another example of what 'mourning' can do. Even Elephants mourn their dead.
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#112752 - 05/10/17 09:10 PM Re: Islamic Incest [Re: SIN3]
ShadowLover Offline
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Registered: 05/26/16
Posts: 351
Loc: Gold Coast, Australia
 Originally Posted By: CanisMachina42
And what do elephants believe that leads them to "bury" their dead?


I'm just speculating because I haven't spent a lot of time around elephants, but agree, it could be to do with still feeling attached to the deceased and still feeling a need to protect them from predators.

Another reason for burials is hygiene. I actually learnt last night about Sky Burials in Tibet where they take the body to the top of the mountain, cut it up in little pieces and feed it to the birds. They believe the birds carry them straight to heaven, but we speculated that perhaps sky burials were once a practical option for hygiene as the ground was rocky if not icy - a traditional burial might have been challenging. And there wasn't a lot of wood around for a fire.

 Originally Posted By: SIN3
On a personal level, I don't mourn the dead. Never have. This Anti-Nomos has always put me with odds with people. Mourning is a weird process, I'd chalk it up to the other weird belief based things man does. Mourning isn't just chronic sadness, there are rituals and ceremony, a complete culture dedicated to remembering the dead.


Mourning is just grief and can be applied to more than just a deceased loved one. It is a process which takes us from our delusion to reality.

When my first son died I mourned, though I felt it was a lot easier for me than it was for other people. I believe that was because I never had to ask why? and I didn't have any regrets. I think people get very caught up in these things, whereas I could simply fast forward to the anger stage, which was awful in itself. But I was also patient with myself and knew the sadness would pass.

And sadness, is simply about feeling and slowly closing the gaping void that you are left with. When you invest a lot of time in someone or a dream of some type, they become deeply woven into our own fabric and feel like part of us. Really, mourning is a part of our narcissist make-up whereby we take a tragedy and make it about ourselves.

I say slowly fill the void... Voids hurt and we tend to want to fill them quickly. I was consciously very careful not to fill my void with too much drugs and alcohol because I feel when we have these open voids it is when we are at our most dangerously susceptible to substance abuse - the universe doesn't like voids. But people also experience these voids with breakups, or with job losses etc, etc, etc. We mourn for the illusionary life we expected to have. Once we process the changes, we can move on.

Jade in people is part of the mourning process... So is detachment. Along with a whole lot of other things. They're normal to experience but the trick is to be aware of what they are so you can process them and get on with living.


Edited by ShadowLover (05/10/17 09:18 PM)
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#112758 - 05/11/17 03:39 PM Re: Islamic Incest [Re: ShadowLover]
SIN3 Offline
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I was speaking on tradition as well as expectations. For example, should I mourn the dead, simply because it's expected? If it isn't a genuine loss, why go through the motions of all the strange rituals?

I sit them out. I didn't even go to my Dad's wake ( overview ) and I actually liked him. I left my 'family' to their morbid practices and their anger over my absence.

The last memory burned into my mind is my own, it sure as shit ain't his bloated dead body in a box. The Catholics don't even know why they do the things they do half the time, it's just tradition.

As for the loss, it took weeks for me to feel anything at all and then when I did, I was more or less empathetic to what a tragic life he had for it to end so early (he was 48). I felt pity. I felt disgust. I was annoyed by how everyone was acting, like they were such great supportive friends and family to the guy when they weren't. They put on a good show though. All tears and pretending, and for what? His Mother's benefit? Like she didn't witness the actual treatment of the man during her lifetime?

Weirdest part of death for me is that you can empathize with another person's loss but when it comes to your own, you find it hard to muscle up tears.

So I can't relate. Not even a little. They say the loss of a child is the most devastating. I don't know that to be true.

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#112761 - 05/11/17 07:28 PM Re: Islamic Incest [Re: SIN3]
ShadowLover Offline
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Registered: 05/26/16
Posts: 351
Loc: Gold Coast, Australia
 Originally Posted By: SIN3
I was speaking on tradition as well as expectations. For example, should I mourn the dead, simply because it's expected? If it isn't a genuine loss, why go through the motions of all the strange rituals?


Okay, I understand what you are saying. I like our ANZAC Day (Australian & New Zealand Army Corps) though. It's personally my favourite (half day) public holiday. I can't say I mourn for the soldiers because as you say, I don't know them, but it makes me feel fortunate in how cushy we have it as a nationality.

 Originally Posted By: SIN3
I didn't even go to my Dad's wake ( overview ) and I actually liked him. I left my 'family' to their morbid practices and their anger over my absence.


Yeah same. I didn't go to my son's wake. I didn't even think to organise one... (I was only 23yo) After the cremation some of my close friends and family wanted to go out to dinner but that was the last thing in the world I felt like doing. But that was how they processed it. I stayed home. My Mum stayed home too - she got drunk before the cremation just to get through it. Lol.

 Originally Posted By: SIN3
As for the loss, it took weeks for me to feel anything at all and then when I did, I was more or less empathetic to what a tragic life he had for it to end so early (he was 48).

Weirdest part of death for me is that you can empathize with another person's loss but when it comes to your own, you find it hard to muscle up tears.


Yeah, I had to consciously appear sad when I did the eulogy. There were no tears that day - just numbness with veins of anger.

I was fortunate in that the the Cystic Fibrosis association payed for the cremation so I didn't have the financial hassle of legally disposing of a body. I could select from a few Christian Faiths to do the service - I was a spiritualist so none of them meant anything to me - I think I went with Anglican. I got to pick versus so I made sure I went with ones that were pretty but not overly Christian. But the service didn't mean much to me. I more did it for the benefit of others.

When I picked up the ashes I threw the box on the kitchen table and they stayed there for a couple of months. People would come over and ask what was in the box and I would say Mitchell, and they would freak out. Lol. But to me he was gone and I didn't really associate him with the ashes - they were just ashes. Eventually I figured I should get them off the table so I put them in the back of my cupboard. I honestly didn't know what to do with them.

It wasn't until I became pregnant with my second son a few years later that I felt an urgency to return the ashes to the Earth. I guess that was my own sense of ritual coming in - I needed to return that energy to the earth because the Earth was giving more - like a recycling process. I was about to go on a Native American journey weekend and I asked the organiser if I could bring the ashes and they actually incorporated a release into the weekend. I enjoyed it - it was Earthy and actually meant something to me.

I actually buried the ashes in a place I knew I would never see again. I didn't want him in a place where people could go and cry - it creeps me out. It's icky! I have always said that I feel cemeteries are far more haunted by the living than they are by the dead - the ground is soaked in sadness.

 Originally Posted By: SIN3
They say the loss of a child is the most devastating. I don't know that to be true.


I think loss is loss. I think they say that about children because of their age (like how your Dad died young). Plus I think they have a natural tendency to leave the biggest voids in us - we invest a lot into our children. But I'm sure a child losing a parent would be at least as devastated. Or losing one's "soul mate".



Edited by ShadowLover (05/11/17 07:56 PM)
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#112762 - 05/11/17 07:56 PM Re: Islamic Incest [Re: SIN3]
CanisMachina42 Offline
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The reason for including elephants was to illustrate taxonomic class similarities. So it's more apples to other flowering plants.

1. Higher mammals are predisposed to "mourning" as a response to loss.

2. What you said. It's assuming to speculate anything as to motivation.

The broader point being these natural tendencies wrote themselves into memeplex behavior later, but also became subject to sociopolitical leveraging and mutation along artificial lines.

 Quote:
On a personal level, I don't mourn the dead. Never have. This Anti-Nomos has always put me with odds with people. Mourning is a weird process, I'd chalk it up to the other weird belief based things man does.


It's bargaining.

Wakes and funerals are artificial, but afterlife beliefs become counterproductive when they keep people from accepting that dead means dead.

It's an instance of self regulation, and self perpetuating as long as there is belief family is waiting on a cloud on an eternal plain. It's hard to accept other interpretations when you can't break the chain in your mind binding you to immortal delusions.

Beauty is in the meaningless short nature of it.
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#112763 - 05/12/17 10:33 AM Re: Islamic Incest [Re: CanisMachina42]
SIN3 Offline
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 Originally Posted By: CanisMachina42
The reason for including elephants was to illustrate taxonomic class similarities. So it's more apples to other flowering plants.

1. Higher mammals are predisposed to "mourning" as a response to loss.
Plenty of other species mourn, then move on. Birds for example, will sit next to the body for a time, then decide it's been long enough and fly off. They don't start annual processions, look for the bones to visit or prolong it for years on end like Homos do. That's what I'm referring to. You're reaching here.

 Quote:

2. What you said. It's assuming to speculate anything as to motivation.

The broader point being these natural tendencies wrote themselves into memeplex behavior later, but also became subject to sociopolitical leveraging and mutation along artificial lines.


Only people do this. Natural tendencies can also be treating a death for what it is, and quickly moving on. Consider how thousands, if not millions of people seemed devastated with Princess Diana died. I'm alien among people crying out, as if they knew her personally. Then all the memorial/mourning practices that followed. I don't know how much of that is influenced vs. instinctive. It's sure as shit weird though. Especially to me. That's not the same thing as empathizing with a close friend that lost their mother. I can empathize with my friend's suffering without feeling his pain. When it comes to strangers, especially 'celebrity' - I think it's a loss of what these people represent. Don't get me wrong, I can be bummed out (for a split second) that one of my favorite entertainers died but still not feel the loss, or a need to mourn them.


 Quote:


 Quote:
On a personal level, I don't mourn the dead. Never have. This Anti-Nomos has always put me with odds with people. Mourning is a weird process, I'd chalk it up to the other weird belief based things man does.


It's bargaining.

Wakes and funerals are artificial, but afterlife beliefs become counterproductive when they keep people from accepting that dead means dead.


Traditions can be really strange, especially death rites. People can commiserate in a group, see the dead body, know its dead and still go on for weeks on end (if not years) about how the dead's spirit torments them. Even when you point out the psychology of it, doesn't seem to matter much. Their beliefs are so ingrained and immovable, the only thing you can do is distance yourself from them. Including the family members that hold them. Batshit beliefs lead to batshit behaviors.

 Quote:

It's an instance of self regulation, and self perpetuating as long as there is belief family is waiting on a cloud on an eternal plain. It's hard to accept other interpretations when you can't break the chain in your mind binding you to immortal delusions.

Beauty is in the meaningless short nature of it.




In self-regulating, it's not as if it all goes really smooth. Drama ensues, it doesn't matter how much calculated effort you put forth to avoid it. This is why most people just go to the damn Wake. Not I, I remain the worst of all. I'm good with that. It's stratifying and requires less effort to repel them.
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#112774 - 05/12/17 06:35 PM Re: Islamic Incest [Re: SIN3]
Czereda Offline
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I think most people move on when their loved ones die sooner or later. There is no other option really. Life goes on and you have to go on if you want to survive. I thought that when my loved ones died, I would be devastated. Nothing like that happened. They've died recently, first my grandma, then my mom. I cried a little but occasionally only. It's healthy to release your emotions but plunge into despair not so much. I used my experience with caring for my grandma to get a job in the nursing home for the elderly. I like it much more than the work of a teacher.

Caring for the graves is the matter of tradition. I bring some flowers to the graves, care for them. Now this is the only thing I can do for the grandma and mom. We had a standard Catholic ceremony, nothing special. My aunt and uncle felt a bit of sorrow but they aren't all too emotional. They are more reserved so nobody gave a weeping show.

I'm aware that there are people who can't get over their relatives' death but it's a self-destructive behavior. Everyone dies. Five of the patients I looked after together with my colleagues have died and I've been working there for only two months. Anger is also unhealthy. It's better to accept the unavoidable. There will come a day when me and you will also die so why shake one's fist at the sky?
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#112775 - 05/12/17 07:53 PM Re: Islamic Incest [Re: Czereda]
Oxus Offline
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I've been surrounded by death since I was 8-9 and steadily ever since. In the Order I am a member of we practice Tibetan Chöd (meditations upon death) and many other disciplines aligned with embracing Death. I have assumed a strong understanding of it.

When our middle brother died from pancreatic cancer it drove our mother insane and she soon died, my father hung on a little while but also gave in, all he could say was; "no parent should outlive their child" . . .

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