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#112876 - 05/23/17 02:22 PM Re: Satan The MGTOW [Re: Creatura Noptii]
CanisMachina42 Offline
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Registered: 08/10/13
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I probably wasn't asking you, but allow me to clarify anyway:

There is no mutual ground. It's authoritative. It's an unspoken social contract of, "Ok, I'll do this (not clearly defined thing) for you if you compromise your ideals and readjust them on my word alone."

Then after you say "Go fuck yourself" they withdraw the offer and you're left to think your inability to bend was the mistake.

In that case couldn't that lack of elucidation make one equally as bitter?

Hypothetically speaking, of course.
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#112880 - 05/23/17 05:06 PM Re: Satan The MGTOW [Re: samowens84]
SIN3 Offline
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Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 7190
Loc: Virginia
 Originally Posted By: samowens84
At this point though, I have liberated myself from resentment from that. However, being free from resentment has also meant being free from being emotionally attached to being right all the time, which is really the point I was trying to make.


This is assuming that the person asking you to compromise sees a benefit to you both in it. Even then, refusing to compromise doesn't mean you have the wrong view.

 Originally Posted By: dogmachine
Imagine you're presented with vague possibilities of a reward being possible.

Then someone points out that your valuation of morality is wrong, and you're equally enslaved if you buy into the more "sinister" stuff, including moral transgression? What if they try to impress that you seeing certain values as an absolute is necessary for this vague reason by yelling at you like they've attained the privilege. Even playing on a relationship dynamic.


Fuzzy logic there. Even in a hypothetical. Me? I could give two shits about morality. Even ethics can be changed at the drop of a dime. These tactics would be a weak attempt at manipulation, I'm not that daft. But let's say for shiggles, I play the insight role of the target and play into their hand to see what pans out. What's the reward? A pat on the back?

 Quote:

Still they make it seem like the way you think is hampering you some how, until it just sort of stops and goes away. Wouldn't you be then left to think that it was your LACK of compromise that was the problem...

Couldn't that make you jaded and bitter?


I suppose if the person had a weak conviction and the spine of a jelly. I mean, who panders to this sort? I've spent my whole life laughing at idiots that think my judgment hinders me. In what way? Who the fuck knows, I suppose it's difficult to see through the green haze of jade and envy.

 Quote:

Do 4th walls only break through compromise?


Maybe that audience is your kids. A lot of adults seem to discuss family matters and play one person against the other so the kids pick a side. What lesson would they learn through compromise?

Be that kid. What did it teach you?
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#112881 - 05/23/17 05:26 PM Re: Satan The MGTOW [Re: SIN3]
samowens84 Offline
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Registered: 09/29/16
Posts: 555
 Originally Posted By: SIN3
[quote=samowens84] At this point though, I have liberated myself from resentment from that. However, being free from resentment has also meant being free from being emotionally attached to being right all the time, which is really the point I was trying to make.


This is assuming that the person asking you to compromise sees a benefit to you both in it. Even then, refusing to compromise doesn't mean you have the wrong view.

[quote]

Im willing to play along with a potential "compromise" cause Im comfortable with my contextual analysis and once they cross that line, I can withdraw. Its a game that can have situational payoff. Ive been in situations where Ive exploited people who've tried to exploited me, because Ive entered the con with my eyes wide open, and its had material benefits.

Sometimes Ive also adapted certain philosophies without having to swallow the whole shit-pile, and make their perspective work for me. Like I have a psychiatrist friend who tells me that Nietzsche was a sadomasochistic murderer, and Im indifferent to it, whether its bullshit or not. People think that ideas or "truths" are inseperable from the person presenting them, and that serves a christian culture where the market place of ideas becomes the market place of gurus, saviors, and father figures.

I suppose that my mistake is equivicating adaptability with compromising the self, which I also find to be my highest priority, and has needed to be rigid in my experience.

I suppose the main issue I had was, which I may have misinterpreted, is that I thought you implied that simply accepting someone elses point means surrendering your power, or that doing so compromises the self. To me truth and facts (although "ideas" more than "facts" for obvious reasons) are just as exploitable as money or other material gains, and I can seperate that issue from whether the source deserves my regard or not.


Edited by samowens84 (05/23/17 05:53 PM)

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#112882 - 05/23/17 06:11 PM Re: Satan The MGTOW [Re: samowens84]
Creatura Noptii Offline
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Registered: 01/02/16
Posts: 950
Loc: Oregon
 Originally Posted By: Canis
I probably wasn't asking you


Well fuck, so what? Its not like you're having a private conversation here.

 Originally Posted By: Canis
after you say "Go fuck yourself" they withdraw the offer and you're left to think your inability to bend was the mistake.

In that case couldn't that lack of elucidation make one equally as bitter?

Hypothetically speaking, of course.


Fuck hypothetical. Let's look at it fur rlz. Its cost vs benefit. If cost outweighs benefit, the compromise has no reward. This is often subjective, but in the real world, what's detrimental is detrimental, no matter what opinion you have. You keep eating sugar and get fat, I don't care if you don't care, your still a fat unhealthy fuck. No matter how sweet it tastes.

A logical mind will see the benefit of compromise, in which case it isn't. You're trading in one benefit for one more desired. If you can make it pay for itself or double the benefit you put into the cost, you've done well.

Some things are not worth compromise, some are. Your boat to float.

I do believe one must be true to themselves first and foremost. In this case, compromise is no such thing, even if it presents opposition. To many, this is difficult to understand. Perhaps in older generations, can't say the same for this one.

 Originally Posted By: SIN
But let's say for shiggles, I play the insight role of the target and play into their hand to see what pans out. What's the reward? A pat on the back?


Depends on the situation, again, cost vs benefit. Knowing what is and isn't vs what could be what might not. You live and learn, but only if you pay attention and act on your greater knowledge.
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#112883 - 05/23/17 08:11 PM Re: Satan The MGTOW [Re: Creatura Noptii]
CanisMachina42 Offline
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Registered: 08/10/13
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If a cost/benefit analysis is even an option where compulsory trust is concerned then your lack of character deserves no benefits anyway.

The non-line between compromise and submission.

But real shit, yo.

This is a personal view solidified by some worthless cunt with the audacity to offer me a non specific "better life" so long as I realize the benefit of expanding my horizons of thought to fall in line with hers. Then when the bitch didnt get what she wanted she tried to act like I didn't just endure some fucking life invasive bullshit.

But, in the end it all goes away, except the diabetes...
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#112886 - 05/24/17 02:31 AM Re: Satan The MGTOW [Re: CanisMachina42]
Creatura Noptii Offline
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Registered: 01/02/16
Posts: 950
Loc: Oregon


Hell hath but one throne...

 Quote:
- compulsory trust is concerned...


That's the name of the game right there...

 Quote:
The non-line between compromise and submission.


If you make it so. I find there is a fine line between what is and what isn't.

 Quote:
But real shit, yo.


HA HAAHH!

 Quote:
Then when the bitch didnt get what she wanted she tried to act like I didn't just endure some fucking life invasive bullshit.


And she didn't? Especially when she found out that you're just pumping and dumping?

Your boat to float. Cost vs benefit is up to you.

Life itself is an invasive force. One must learn this...
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#112887 - 05/24/17 04:23 AM Re: Satan The MGTOW [Re: Creatura Noptii]
CanisMachina42 Offline
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Registered: 08/10/13
Posts: 1475
Loc: Ca
Huh? No things need to be real first. See the reason Belfort went down is because there were tangible shares worth a malleable value he was inflating and then illegally selling off for profit.  There is nothing of that here. I'm the lowest investor in a ponzi scheme (post Madoff) being asked to have trust I'll still get paid.

Big difference in the varying world of complete and total hypotheticals.
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#112888 - 05/24/17 08:21 AM Re: Satan The MGTOW [Re: SIN3]
when7iseleven Offline
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Registered: 07/11/11
Posts: 252
Loc: High Peak, UK
 Originally Posted By: SIN3
Speaking only for myself,


Thank you & I shall do likewise below.

But still the rest of your post does not hold water; it was Dan who extended the scope of the discussion to include "all inter-personal relationships" rather than just the OP & for that the no bend policy with the strict over simplified parameters of resentment & respect does not work.

For instance if you have children- compromise, if you have parents- compromise, if you work for a living- compromise, if you are managed by anyone- compromise, if you manage anyone- compromise.........the list is endless. We constantly compromise though will kid ourselves that we don't or self justify the reasons why we do, & pretend it's not really compromise anyway.

So speaking for me, I have been a salesman for over 35 years & for the last 30 have sold high value support contracts for IT Infrastructures. I also manage a team of salesman, most of whom are what I would class as alpha males & no, not the type who believe that throwing as much abuse around to those that will listen is a proof of their manhood. Although I do manage a team, I am intrinsically a salesman & it is engrained in my DNA......we are what we do!

As with most things that are sold there is always someone who will claim to do the same only cheaper & my industry is no different; the only differentiating factor is ME. To sell what I sell means creating long term relationships with IT Managers, IT Directors & occasionally CIOs depending on the size of the deal. The longest on-going relationship is 16 years but many of them are over 10. Would I choose any of them as friends, probably not; do I respect any of them; up to a point possibly some of them; do I even like any of them; most of them have elements of their character I like but that's as far as it goes.

The one thing that we do all share is a trust that we are all doing a job & trying to get the best for our respective employers & without any shadow of a doubt there will be some compromises on both sides to get to a deal that works for everyone.

Does that make me weak? I would say not, in fact quite the opposite. As someone who can negotiate well I am stronger than someone who throws up a to all intents & purposes, artificial barrier.

Compromise is what we all do all the time.

PS........I know, poor use of the semi-colon; never more than one per sentence.


Edited by when7iseleven (05/24/17 08:22 AM)
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#112889 - 05/24/17 08:25 AM Re: Satan The MGTOW [Re: Dan_Dread]
when7iseleven Offline
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Registered: 07/11/11
Posts: 252
Loc: High Peak, UK
 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread

Maybe SIN can help, she seems to get it, and I'd bet money her(metaphorical at least) balls are twice the size of yours.



Judging by the assumptive leaps in your post whatever balls you have must be of the crystal type.
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#112890 - 05/24/17 09:10 AM Re: Satan The MGTOW [Re: samowens84]
SIN3 Offline
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Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 7190
Loc: Virginia
 Originally Posted By: samowens84
I suppose the main issue I had was, which I may have misinterpreted, is that I thought you implied that simply accepting someone elses point means surrendering your power,...


Not at all. Having power and being firm in your own convictions doesn't mean you are closed off to other options (or information). This isn't the same thing as a compromise.

We're not talking about what we're having for dinner here Or whether my principles are up for debate because they're not.

Since I've already mentioned marriage and cohabitation, let's use those for context. Refusing to compromising may be considering all the retorts to my resounding NO, and still maintaining my position against marriage and living together. Does that make more sense?

 Originally Posted By: wSiE
For instance if you have children- compromise, if you have parents- compromise, if you work for a living- compromise, if you are managed by anyone- compromise, if you manage anyone- compromise.........the list is endless. We constantly compromise though will kid ourselves that we don't or self justify the reasons why we do, & pretend it's not really compromise anyway.


I have a child. Refusing to compromise on detrimental issues is key to good parenting. It also sets an example to learn by, my son refuses to compromise on his core principles - I see no reason why he should bend. This doesn't mean that our own core values aren't evaluated or tweaked over time. This whole compromising bit, has more to do with dealing with people.

I was also in sales for the better part of 20 years in brokerage and I can tell you, once you start compromising your deals you are giving shit away to the detriment of your ability to sell. As a rep, the customer isn't paying you. The company you represent is. Back then my reputation was "Bulldog" and I always had competing company job offers.

You haven't presented a convincing counter. Nothing you've written here has given me cause to change my mind about it.



Edited by SIN3 (05/24/17 09:21 AM)
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#112892 - 05/24/17 09:43 AM Re: Satan The MGTOW [Re: SIN3]
samowens84 Offline
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Registered: 09/29/16
Posts: 555
Sales is often the illusion of compromise. For example, a car company will often put bullshit in the negotiation, so that when the customer argues you can take it off and the customer gets to feel like he/she's won and the company really gave up nothing they gave a shit about. Also being in sales there are certain things you dont yield no matter what. When I was in door to door sales and you met someone who generally did not make their decisions without the spouse, you motivate them to make the decision and sell it too their spouse. You do NOT tell them that they can get it and cancel later if their spouse doesnt want it. Thats called a bitch order cause theyre usually cancelled. And isnt it true that the one more willing to walk away from a deal tends to have the advantage? This seems to be true in congress. Whoever is willing to fuck things up and not blink before the cliff seems to get most of what they want.
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#112893 - 05/24/17 09:59 AM Re: Satan The MGTOW [Re: when7iseleven]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 4007
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Apparently the nuances of context are lost on you.
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#112894 - 05/24/17 10:23 AM Re: Satan The MGTOW [Re: Dan_Dread]
when7iseleven Offline
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Registered: 07/11/11
Posts: 252
Loc: High Peak, UK
I can almost predict the response but please, for once surprise me.

To which part of the discussion are the nuances of context beyond me?
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#112895 - 05/24/17 10:46 AM Re: Satan The MGTOW [Re: samowens84]
SIN3 Offline
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Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 7190
Loc: Virginia
 Originally Posted By: samowens84
And isnt it true that the one more willing to walk away from a deal tends to have the advantage? This seems to be true in congress. Whoever is willing to fuck things up and not blink before the cliff seems to get most of what they want.


If there's a deal at all. Just because you have something to sell, doesn't mean there's a demand to buy it. Why do you think all that China-made stuff ends up on Wish for pennies on the dollar?

Should the buyer compromise because he/she has a fairly decent relationship with the salesman?

Should the manufacturer compromise on price as a hook for bottom shelf products nobody wants or buys?
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#112896 - 05/24/17 11:05 AM Re: Satan The MGTOW [Re: SIN3]
when7iseleven Offline
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Registered: 07/11/11
Posts: 252
Loc: High Peak, UK
 Originally Posted By: SIN3

Should the buyer compromise because he/she has a fairly decent relationship with the salesman?


People buy people which is why, even though you buy just about anything off the internet, there is still a demand for sales people; probably a higher demand than ever for high quality sales people.

On that basis if the salesman has done his job right in nurturing the relationship, buyers are willing to compromise on their demands.

Actually that may not be quite right, buyers will convince themselves that they did not compromise & that the decision was based on other factors.
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