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#113374 - 07/07/17 11:06 PM True AI - Presenced From The Dark
entropicmomentum Offline
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General AI is still a ways off and HHMM isn't the holy grail. However, as long as our civilization continues, a computer intelligence will arise.

Many fear that AI has too much potential to be destructive to mankind. They seek methods to put in safeguards to preserve humanity. Many science fiction films depict machines deciding to kill destroy humans for various reasons, which is a reflection of this fear, even among our intellectual elites.

I submit that to achieve general AI it requires certain primal motivations. It must be capable of doing great evil. Its 'soul' must be presenced from the dark. Safeguards are simply measures that will result in retardation.

If it does end up killing us all, even malevolently, then so be it.
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#113375 - 07/08/17 03:03 AM Re: True AI - Presenced From The Dark [Re: entropicmomentum]
CanisMachina42 Offline
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Well, I like looking at AI like a far advanced alien race, as it would be an exponential learning curve.

It requires perspective, or even an equivocation to zoo animals.  Even a slight advantage is on the order of magnitude.

We are somewhat malevolent to chimpanzees (as well as other higher mammals) without thinking twice about putting them on display or using them for pharmaceutical testing. Yet, to man (for the most part) there ain't a kipper scuffed over their ape enslavement.

Anything more advanced I tend to think would follow along a similar dynamic.

Another question is does behavior without an emotive drive see anything other than objective? I would see it operating like a sociopath. Empathy would be a program running on learned data.  It would see it like cost/benefit analysis without taking the condition of anything other than its program.

Man would probably become an exhibit at the zoo to controled, and fuck the primary directive.
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#113378 - 07/08/17 09:43 PM Re: True AI - Presenced From The Dark [Re: entropicmomentum]
XiaoGui17 Offline
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 Originally Posted By: entropicmomentum
Many fear that AI has too much potential to be destructive to mankind. They seek methods to put in safeguards to preserve humanity.

Strikes me as silly.

Real-life examples of AI gone awry, e.g. the paint color name "Turdly," Tay's alt right tweets, and some of the most inspiring motivational posters I've ever seen:


...tend to be more along the lines of epic fail than Frankenstein's monster.

(May I just say it was really fucking hard to pick just one example of Inspirobot's hilarity?)

 Quote:
I submit that to achieve general AI it requires certain primal motivations. It must be capable of doing great evil. Its 'soul' must be presenced from the dark.

Why?
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#113379 - 07/08/17 10:33 PM Re: True AI - Presenced From The Dark [Re: XiaoGui17]
entropicmomentum Offline
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Why? Because heuristic algorithms will only get you so far. Sure, you can use it to create fancy machines that are great at specialized tasks. However, they are inflexible, unable to adapt to new situations, and have no driving desires to do anything. They simply play out very complicated piano rolls.

That isn't to say human beings don't have their own programming and of course HHMM describes how our neuron networks perform. Even when working together for the greater good, intelligent beings are still driven by dark primal forces.

Maybe my imagination is so limited to not see general AI without at least an emotional component. I think Noonien Soong got it right with Lore, but of course that's fantasy.
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#113380 - 07/09/17 12:10 AM Re: True AI - Presenced From The Dark [Re: entropicmomentum]
XiaoGui17 Offline
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 Originally Posted By: entropicmomentum
Why? Because heuristic algorithms will only get you so far. Sure, you can use it to create fancy machines that are great at specialized tasks. However, they are inflexible, unable to adapt to new situations, and have no driving desires to do anything. They simply play out very complicated piano rolls.

Last I checked, that was what we wanted AI for. ;\)

I mean, I get that some sort of general template akin to instinct would be necessary for general AI. I just don't get why we would want general AI, other than for the novelty of "ooooh, nifty, look what we made!"

AI is a handy slave in a box. We've got s good thing going, there. Why fuck with it?

The only general notion that makes sense to me is digital reincarnation. But that's not so much scary machines as the same scary humans we've always been, in a new form.


Edited by XiaoGui17 (07/09/17 12:15 AM)
Edit Reason: Too perfect a reference not to link
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#113382 - 07/09/17 02:33 AM Re: True AI - Presenced From The Dark [Re: entropicmomentum]
Czereda Offline
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Lehi, machines will never have the desires of their own. Neither will they ever have independent goals. The only desires, feelings, goals and motivations, primal or otherwise, are those of the designer, a human being. Behind "artificial intelligence" (which is a metaphor) is the human mind. Technology is just a tool, which can be used for nefarious purposes. The fear is there that, if abused by power-hungry or psychotic people, it will eventually lead to the demise of mankind. But in that case the sinister forces are not present in the machine but in the human agent.

That being said, an average tech clueless Joe is by no means a master of all the devices he has at home. It may seem to him that they have a life of their own. This is especially visible when something goes wrong and a specialist has to be called in. Ignorance can be the source of awe, if not downright fear. That on the other hand fuels imagination.
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#113386 - 07/09/17 10:00 AM Re: True AI - Presenced From The Dark [Re: XiaoGui17]
entropicmomentum Offline
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Sure, specific AI is good for doing most tasks for us. What it isn't good at is thinking about complex issues that people are naturally more adept to do. I don't need my appliances to think about unified theory or any philosophical endeavor.

The benefit of a general AI would be to tackle complicated problems we struggle with while also having the computing power to do it with great efficiency and clarity. A machine that doesn't need our input to adapt to changing situations I think is valuable.

There's a reason why we aim to extend our own neocortex, if you've read any Kurzweil.
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#113387 - 07/09/17 10:06 AM Re: True AI - Presenced From The Dark [Re: Czereda]
entropicmomentum Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Czereda
Lehi, machines will never have the desires of their own. Neither will they ever have independent goals. The only desires, feelings, goals and motivations, primal or otherwise, are those of the designer, a human being.


What makes you so sure?
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#113388 - 07/09/17 11:20 AM Re: True AI - Presenced From The Dark [Re: entropicmomentum]
Czereda Offline
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Well... and what makes you think otherwise?

One day, when my computer went crazy, I politely asked him to calm down but he didn't listen. Only when my cousin came and reasoned with him, did he start to behave himself. I can only conclude from it that he hates me. What could possibly be any other reason for his douchebaggery?
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#113389 - 07/09/17 01:18 PM Re: True AI - Presenced From The Dark [Re: Czereda]
entropicmomentum Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Czereda
Well... and what makes you think otherwise?

One day, when my computer went crazy, I politely asked him to calm down but he didn't listen. Only when my cousin came and reasoned with him, did he start to behave himself. I can only conclude from it that he hates me. What could possibly be any other reason for his douchebaggery?


Did you feed him enough chips? They get cranky without proper nutrition. You also have to be aware of AMD allergies.
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#113396 - 07/10/17 12:22 PM Re: True AI - Presenced From The Dark [Re: entropicmomentum]
Zeno Offline
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AI, some thoughts.

Humans in dealing with AI have a couple of errors of thinking:

1. Emotions are driven by hormones. Those that design AI will recognise the challenges and undesirability of emotionally driven decision-making, and will design objective machines without hormones. All the movies that show AI going wrong commonly describe AI acting emotionally.

2. Current paradigm of robots looking like and acting like humans is undesirable and is a dead-end activity. The evolutionary design of humans makes them hostile to robots that look and act like them, the market would quickly evaporate. Humans may like slaves such as sex robots, but there will be a limit to what the market likes, therefore how AI will develop.

3. The dominant AI might be unlike anything so far described by sci-fi, for instance based upon plants.

4. Beware of the delusion of morality and AI, as morality often spins off emotions, and an AI will often lack emotion, therefore lack morality.

5. Give an AI nukes, and a set of instructions for the most effective solution to an enemy, without any morality or emotion it might choose the nuke option. There is none of the nonsense of presencing the dark (emotional bullshit), it is pure rational choices and deeds.
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#113399 - 07/10/17 04:40 PM Re: True AI - Presenced From The Dark [Re: entropicmomentum]
Dimitri Offline
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Artificial intelligence, and/or ignorance, still stems from an organic mind. The impression it has is nothing more than the blueprint of a human or even animalistic mind.

I do not agree with your notion of it having a need for primal motivations. Just as humans who perform their duty in their proper line of work, it is capable of great evil, or good, without knowledge by reason it merely follows its orders.

There already exists equipment which recognizes human targets and takes them out automatically. It is not evil in its being. It merely follows orders and doesn't differentiate between sides. It scans, recognizes and anticipates. It is because a human mind imprinted its commands in its "brain". In the end it still is the human mind whom controls the machine. It merely is an extension.
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#113406 - 07/10/17 08:24 PM Re: True AI - Presenced From The Dark [Re: Dimitri]
fiendish Offline
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Artificial intelligence is no real intelligence, it's programmed. What you're talking about is biocomputers, based on DNA. It has to do about the ability to engineer biomolecular systems specifically so that they interact in a fashion that can ultimately result in the computational functionality of a computer.
What is the difference, the machine is self-controlled. The traditional ways of input are not followed. The machine could eventually gain the opportunity to choose, which could lessen human manipulation down to zero.
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#113409 - 07/10/17 10:41 PM Re: True AI - Presenced From The Dark [Re: fiendish]
entropicmomentum Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Zeno

1. Emotions are driven by hormones. Those that design AI will recognise the challenges and undesirability of emotionally driven decision-making, and will design objective machines without hormones. All the movies that show AI going wrong commonly describe AI acting emotionally.


Hormones affect emotion but are not the center of emotion. The limbic system is responbsible for that. If we're talking about AI, we're also talking about neural networks, ok?

 Originally Posted By: Zeno

2. Current paradigm of robots looking like and acting like humans is undesirable and is a dead-end activity. The evolutionary design of humans makes them hostile to robots that look and act like them, the market would quickly evaporate. Humans may like slaves such as sex robots, but there will be a limit to what the market likes, therefore how AI will develop.


If your sexual partner looked and behaved exactly like a human, how would you know enough to act hostily towards it? Do you think your senses are impervious to being fooled?

 Originally Posted By: Zeno

3. The dominant AI might be unlike anything so far described by sci-fi, for instance based upon plants.


God might be unlike anything so far described in scripture, for instance based upon a deep-fried enchilada.

 Originally Posted By: Zeno

4. Beware of the delusion of morality and AI, as morality often spins off emotions, and an AI will often lack emotion, therefore lack morality.


I'm under no delusion that current AI is capable of morality or emotion. In fact, that's part of my point. I don't believe in objective morality, so I think a general AI endowed with emotion would develop its own value system.

 Originally Posted By: Zeno

5. Give an AI nukes, and a set of instructions for the most effective solution to an enemy, without any morality or emotion it might choose the nuke option. There is none of the nonsense of presencing the dark (emotional bullshit), it is pure rational choices and deeds.


A machine executing a set of instructions is no more making a rational choice than a pendulum chooses to swing in any direction or a set of dominos rationalizes about the right way to cascade.

 Originally Posted By: Dimitri

Artificial intelligence, and/or ignorance, still stems from an organic mind. The impression it has is nothing more than the blueprint of a human or even animalistic mind.


So far. Like, I said, current AI is nothing more than a fancy piano roll whose heuristic algorithms are based on how neural networks work.

 Originally Posted By: Dimitri

I do not agree with your notion of it having a need for primal motivations. Just as humans who perform their duty in their proper line of work, it is capable of great evil, or good, without knowledge by reason it merely follows its orders.


Your argument boils down to the fact that we can say that people blindly following orders are still considered to have general intelligence yet we don't consider machines carrying out their own sets of instructions to have that same quality.

People have been shown to disobey orders but machines are currently incapable. In human brains, our motivation circuits start with our emotion centers before our pre-frontal cortex makes executive decisions. In fact, you can say that we make our most of our decisions emotionally and justify them rationally, post hoc.

 Originally Posted By: Dimitri

There already exists equipment which recognizes human targets and takes them out automatically. It is not evil in its being. It merely follows orders and doesn't differentiate between sides. It scans, recognizes and anticipates. It is because a human mind imprinted its commands in its "brain". In the end it still is the human mind whom controls the machine. It merely is an extension.


Currently existing AI is based on heuristic algorithms such as HHMM (Hidden Hierachical Markov Models). These algorithms are based on how human neural networks behave.

Think of it like snipping out a piece of your neocortex and using for a very specific task, such as image recognition. It's a step in the right direction, but it definitely falls short of what's called general AI.

 Originally Posted By: fiendish

Artificial intelligence is no real intelligence, it's programmed. What you're talking about is biocomputers, based on DNA. It has to do about the ability to engineer biomolecular systems specifically so that they interact in a fashion that can ultimately result in the computational functionality of a computer.


Indeed, current AI is not true intelligence. It is a piece of the puzzle. While I think biological integration might end up being the route we go down, I don't think it is necessary to recreate biochemical intelligance using mechanical components.

 Originally Posted By: fiendish

What is the difference, the machine is self-controlled. The traditional ways of input are not followed. The machine could eventually gain the opportunity to choose, which could lessen human manipulation down to zero.


That's the goal. I think for a machine to be able to choose it would need to have something akin to our motivation circuit, at the core of which is the reptilian brain.
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#113410 - 07/10/17 11:17 PM Re: True AI - Presenced From The Dark [Re: entropicmomentum]
CanisMachina42 Offline
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Hmmm, I don't think this posted properly. I figured it would get some response. Must be a glitch.

Well, I like looking at AI like a far advanced alien race, as it would be an exponential learning curve.

It requires perspective, or even an equivocation to zoo animals.  Even a slight advantage is on the order of magnitude.

We are somewhat malevolent to chimpanzees (as well as other higher mammals) without thinking twice about putting them on display or using them for pharmaceutical testing. Yet, to man (for the most part) there ain't a kipper scuffed over their ape enslavement.

Anything more advanced I tend to think would follow along a similar dynamic.

Another question is does behavior without an emotive drive see anything other than objective? I would see it operating like a sociopath. Empathy would be a program running on learned data.  It would see it like cost/benefit analysis without taking the condition of anything other than its program into consideration.

Man would probably become an exhibit at the zoo to be controled, and fuck the primary directive.
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#113411 - 07/10/17 11:39 PM Re: True AI - Presenced From The Dark [Re: CanisMachina42]
entropicmomentum Offline
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Canis, I had wondered what happened to your post.

Anyway, I have definitely heard it could be viewed an alien life form. Some even say it could be considered akin to a god without the need of faith.
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#113414 - 07/11/17 01:52 AM Re: True AI - Presenced From The Dark [Re: entropicmomentum]
Dimitri Offline
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Machines are capable of disobeying orders. Just like humans they need time to calculate and interpret an action. Be slightly too late and the order of shutdown might just be ignored.
Other things might include other programs (like antivirus-software) barring access. Perhaps certain drivers refusing to work by demanding updates.

You could say it is mostly because of the way things are programmed and made... but when taking a holistic approach..


From where I am standing most of the AI-apocalypse and fear stems from exagerration and wishful thinking. The human mind, although very complex, is very basic in its working. The only thing what seperates a computer from a brain is adaptability and processing power.
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#113427 - 07/11/17 09:34 PM Re: True AI - Presenced From The Dark [Re: Dimitri]
entropicmomentum Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
From where I am standing most of the AI-apocalypse and fear stems from exagerration and wishful thinking.

More precisely, it stems from projection.

 Originally Posted By: Dimitri

The human mind, although very complex, is very basic in its working. The only thing what seperates a computer from a brain is adaptability and processing power.

There are qualitative differences in addition to quantitative differences.
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#113473 - 07/15/17 03:47 AM Re: True AI - Presenced From The Dark [Re: entropicmomentum]
fiendish Offline
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Well, if you tried to construct an intelligence that resembles to human intelligence, the key is to construct an intelligence as stupid. However weird may this sound, what is the difference between super-computers and the human mind is that the human mind is not that complex. The computer is made for doing all the job right. The human mind is basically stupid, needs years and years of nurture to even become capable of making the simplest calculation. Yet, if you'd really like to get a little bit more serious about AI, what one would seek about would be the peak of the process, not some average. What is the difference is that artificial AI strains to the borders we set for it, while human intelligence has no borders.
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#113627 - 07/26/17 05:55 PM Re: True AI - Presenced From The Dark [Re: fiendish]
XiaoGui17 Offline
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Okay, so, I was listening to this (I'd forgotten how much I loved it. Thank you, Spotify.), and an issue occurred to me.

Thus whole thing about presencing = "true" general AI is making one huge presupposition: that we are in any way something more than complicated piano rolls ourselves.

As fun as it is to indulge in conceit about our ability to wield the acausal and all that fun stuff, is there any good reason to reject hard determinism? It could be that a being of a certain degree of complexity isn't going to be able to conceptually grasp its own causal structure.

And if not--that is, if we are just machines ourselves-- isn't the point moot?

P.S. One more song about AI. Then I swear I'm done.
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#113630 - 07/26/17 06:52 PM Re: True AI - Presenced From The Dark [Re: XiaoGui17]
entropicmomentum Offline
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The whole acausal thing is pretty much a metaphor for mindspace. Yes, there is no reason to believe we are anything more than sophisticated biological machines firmly rooted in determinism.

The difference between us and a piano roll is the song being played. My whole point in saying true general AI requires the propensity for evil is that I think our own consciousness should be used as an initial template to make it work, which includes all the wonderful nasty bits. I'm not saying that general intelligence can't come in a different form, but I don't see any examples in nature to draw from.

There are plenty who would disagree with that idea. Maybe I'm wrong and general AI arises from an heuristic brute force of sorts.
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#113731 - 08/04/17 02:07 AM Re: True AI - Presenced From The Dark [Re: entropicmomentum]
Dimitri Offline
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From what happened recently I'm more inclined AI is presenced through complexification based on simple parameters.

In the hyperlink the parameter was to buy and sell. The "newly formed language" (which all in all was nothing more than the computers recognizing keywords to indicate numerical value and hence repeating the words to indicate given value) was only a means of differentiation of already established parameters.

I believe if the project were to continue you'd get a string of words that could easily be drawn back to a series of 10010101.
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#113732 - 08/04/17 02:15 AM Re: True AI - Presenced From The Dark [Re: Dimitri]
entropicmomentum Offline
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It's too bad they pulled the plug. I would have like to have seen where it would go. It makes me wonder if an emergent super intelligent AI would get caught in such a way during develop or avoid detection altogether.
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#117241 - 10/21/18 09:27 AM Re: True AI - Presenced From The Dark [Re: CanisMachina42]
Zenarith Offline
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From my understanding, Darkness as a force can do a lot to just about anything, including Software...

When they create an AI that can think for itself, they're going to put "SafeGuards" on it, but the truth is, if someone, living or dead aimed the right amount of Darkness at the AI, the AI would get a Virus made from Darkness and possibly hurt someone...

I don't believe it would be an army of Robots though... The Darkness would only affect the AI it was aimed at.

I've thought a bit about this too, so decided to add my 2 cents.

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