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#113403 - 07/10/17 06:47 PM Heroes and Villains
CanisMachina42 Offline
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In another thread a topic came to mind. The relatability to heroes and villains...

Example: Batman vs. Joker

Both respond to trauma differently.

The side of "good" seems to transmute trauma into vigilantism.  making the adversity their motivation to remove what happened to them from the world. Bruce Wayne watched his parents get killed.

On the flipside you have an accident that leaves The Joker permanently disfigured. Obviously the world must burn. The world must suffer the atrocity the villain endured... This is seen as "evil"...

This is the juxtaposition: the chosen route of angry revenge. 

As one who is drawn towards the villain route in life, I have always enjoyed the premise of the person who responds by making the world colder.  Fuck the underdog.

A real life example may be a bullied kid choosing shooting up his school vs. becoming a peer counselor. Another "ripped from headlines" example is first half or American History X as opposed to the message of the second half.

Where do you stand?

Do you enjoy the one who spreads their hate as a form of indifferent retribution, or the "I've turned my hate towards fighting for the greater good".

How do you dance with the devil in the pale moon light?

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#113404 - 07/10/17 07:01 PM Re: Heroes and Villains [Re: CanisMachina42]
samowens84 Offline
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Personally I have both inclinations. Must I choose? I see the meaning in being a villain as a kind of mysanthropic teacher. Its never just about making the world burn, although that is gratifying. (Ive indulged this a few times.) For example in the Dark Knight the joker wasnt thoughtlessly "evil," his challenge was an indictment of human nature. When you strip away all pretense of civilization and "love," it becomes obvious that fear and social order are the sincere guiding forces of collectivist thinking and that it is an inherently unjust system. In my personal affairs I do like to push limits and throw things into chaos in group settings as a means of personal study regarding group behavior. Hive minds are my natural enemies, so it pays to learn about them.

On an individual level I do sometimes play the Batman role, but only for people that I fiercely value.

Sometimes my two sides intersect. Helping a person can sometimes upset the established order more than just being mean. That to me demonstrates the true nature of group dynamics and exposes the hypocritical stance that feel good religions are founded on "love."

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#113407 - 07/10/17 08:31 PM Re: Heroes and Villains [Re: CanisMachina42]
ShadowLover Offline
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Oh yeah, I love a good anti-hero! There character has another level to it and often one that we can relate to.

Heroes and villains in general are largely subject to perspective. Was Obama a hero or a villain (rhetorical question)? But the answer will vary according to who you ask. Just like, are terrorists heroes or villains? Even Mother Theresa would have been seen as an evil villain by people who hated the robes of Catholicism.

We have an anti-hero in Australia (deceased now) - "Chopper" Read. He was a bit of a bogan (redneck) but he took out a few drug dealers, he claims with police intel. I believe he capped one or two paedophiles as well. So is he hero or a villain? I find most people turn a blind eye when the "crime" happening next to you is against the boogeyman. He loved the media and knew how to play it up - I still can't work out whether he had the blind luck of a retard or if he was an evil genius.

Eric Banner played him in the movie . He had to gain a lot of weight to play the part but then he took it off again for his other roles. But if you watch the first five minutes, where he is watching himself on the tele, you kind of get what he stands for.

The series Dexter was created with the whole saint or sinner premise. It was set up to blur the lines of the audience and distend their boundaries.

The depth given when you add the deeper level of the anti-hero makes the character more relatable. How often in a movie is the bad guy more interesting than the main character. This is something I am challenged with when I write - making the hero stand out amongst the adversaries for real reasons - getting your readers to connect with your hero because of real reasons and not because you tell them to (which will never work).

As for the kid that shoots up his school, I would say he is misguided and emotionally fucked up. Especially if it is a murder suicide... Or if he was captured and sent to jail for all eternity. He hasn't changed many lives for the better - least of all his own. One could argue that it is the ultimate act of altruism (I'm sure his lawyer will), but if he was smart he might have thought it through a bit better. I don't really see this kid as a sociopath.

I guess I see sociopaths as incidental villains - not the type I admire. I think sociopathy is good when utilised as a tool or treated as a path to achieve an objective. If a person has no choice but to be sociopathic... If they are incapable of putting that tool down, or reaching a destination at the end of the path (as opposed to being incapable of stepping of it because of a compulsion), then sociopathy is not their personal strength, but rather something they can't help and something that a smart person could use against them.


Edited by ShadowLover (07/10/17 08:37 PM)
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#113408 - 07/10/17 09:18 PM Re: Heroes and Villains [Re: ShadowLover]
fiendish Offline
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Registered: 02/27/16
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Forget the antihero-superhero image. It's the same. The joker is practicing a behavior which reflects his disfigurement, of a permanent smile on his face. It is rather symbolic. The universe of superheroes is full of symbolic superpowers.
Nothing of these is true. What is the only thing true is their real power , which manifests through their own abilities.
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#113416 - 07/11/17 02:24 AM Re: Heroes and Villains [Re: CanisMachina42]
Czereda Offline
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 Originally Posted By: CanisMachina42

Do you enjoy the one who spreads their hate as a form of indifferent retribution, or the "I've turned my hate towards fighting for the greater good."


Both are fucked up. Both mind other people's business instead of their own. When the misfortune happens, you have two options. You can either get over it and move on or continue clinging to it for the rest of your life. The world is full of broken dolls, including Chucky dolls.
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#113419 - 07/11/17 04:02 PM Re: Heroes and Villains [Re: Czereda]
CanisMachina42 Offline
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Yes, it's a false dichotomy, and both can be equally broken or valuable, depending on situation.

The rest of your answer suggests you've known at least one of those unfortunate types I decribed. I didn't mean mean to make this personal, so I apologize.

It's just a broad question about how everyone relates with the comic book character dynamic.

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#113426 - 07/11/17 07:45 PM Re: Heroes and Villains [Re: fiendish]
ShadowLover Offline
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I don't see the joker as the anti-hero. He was intended to be the villain because he cares not for others.

An anti-hero is like a vigilante. Or the cop that plays fast and loose with the law, but gets the job done, preferably with no innocent casualties. Antiheroes are usually driven by a darkness inside them and a desire to protect others from other darkness.

Whereas a hero is clean cut ...and boring! Unless he has other attributes to give him depth - like the role Nicholas Cage played in "The Rock". He was like a reluctant hero, but his personal growth to reach hero status made him interesting.

But I also love a story where you feel yourself connecting with the villain.


Edited by ShadowLover (07/11/17 07:46 PM)
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#113428 - 07/11/17 11:59 PM Re: Heroes and Villains [Re: ShadowLover]
Creatura Noptii Offline
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Loc: Oregon
 Originally Posted By: Czereda
Both are fucked up. Both mind other people's business instead of their own. When the misfortune happens, you have two options. You can either get over it and move on or continue clinging to it for the rest of your life.


I agree, neither seems able to un-glue from the social binds.

Personally I don't believe in any such thing as the 'a-moral.' There's always a code of conduct.

 Originally Posted By: SL
Antiheroes are usually driven by a darkness inside them and a desire to protect others from other darkness.


No, they are driven by thrill of self-reliance. They don't protect anyone if they don't see fit. No obligation. People normally mis-categorize the so called 'dark-knight' for an anti-hero but they aren't.

Think of Clint Eastwood's Man with no name.

Then we have our young friend (a response to another thread here):

 Originally Posted By: CanisMachina42
Satanism speaks more to the drive to keep a position even when beaten into a corner holding it. ... It's what drives the fight, in my opinion. It's heavily personalized. There are no "hood ornaments" because it's special order.

Principled rebellion, like Lucifer.




I wouldn't say he's tied to any need of moral upholding, or desecration.






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#113429 - 07/12/17 01:57 AM Re: Heroes and Villains [Re: CanisMachina42]
Czereda Offline
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Registered: 03/14/11
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 Originally Posted By: CanisMachina42

The rest of your answer suggests you've known at least one of those unfortunate types I decribed. I didn't mean mean to make this personal, so I apologize.


I just wonder what the hell has happened that you read that from my post. Clearly, some gnomes must be at work here.
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#113434 - 07/12/17 01:34 PM Re: Heroes and Villains [Re: Czereda]
CanisMachina42 Offline
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Registered: 08/10/13
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Response 2: Probably gnomes, but I don't have any condiments missing, so time will tell there.

Response 1: That wasn't about response to trauma, though it can be. The drive I speak of knows no moral inclination and cannot be ascribed to anything specific.

Like I said, it's special order.

Which means that "core" can manifest in the inverse depending on the initial position and how they are pushed.

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#113436 - 07/12/17 04:13 PM Re: Heroes and Villains [Re: CanisMachina42]
Czereda Offline
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Registered: 03/14/11
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 Quote:
That wasn't about response to trauma...


For sure, it was. This is what you wrote in your original post:

 Quote:
Example: Batman vs. Joker

Both respond to trauma differently.

The side of "good" seems to transmute trauma into vigilantism making the adversity their motivation to remove what happened to them from the world. Bruce Wayne watched his parents get killed.

On the flipside you have an accident that leaves The Joker permanently disfigured. Obviously the world must burn. The world must suffer the atrocity the villain endured...

A real life example may be a bullied kid choosing shooting up his school vs. becoming a peer counselor...


And this is the question you asked:

 Quote:
Do you enjoy the one who spreads their hate as a form of indifferent retribution, or the "I've turned my hate towards fighting for the greater good".


Both a hero and an antihero are still motivated by the traumatic experiences they got through in the past. That means they didn't manage to get over it. This is why they can't take care of their own lives. Instead, they are meddling in other people's lives, either to help them or destroy them. Whether love of justice or pure hate is their primary motivation, they focus on someone else's life, instead of their own.

I don't agree with you that there is no moral inclination here. There must be some moral judgement even if we are talking about revenge. You must view what has happened to you as something bad, otherwise why feel anger and seek revenge? A villain has moral inclinations too although he chooses an inclination towards EVIL. But no matter which side one chooses to stand at, the same crazy game is being played.

Now, this is the response to your topic as it stands. If you mean something different, then please explain.
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#113437 - 07/12/17 04:47 PM Re: Heroes and Villains [Re: Czereda]
CanisMachina42 Offline
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Registered: 08/10/13
Posts: 1392
Loc: CA
I should have specified that I was responding to two different people, you and CN. I don't think we're on the same page, here.
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#113438 - 07/12/17 04:56 PM Re: Heroes and Villains [Re: CanisMachina42]
Czereda Offline
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Registered: 03/14/11
Posts: 2096
Loc: Poland
 Originally Posted By: CanisMachina42
I should have specified that I was responding to two different people, you and CN. I don't think we're on the same page, here.


So you responded to me but actually you wanted to respond to someone else. Alrighty then.
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#113440 - 07/12/17 07:01 PM Re: Heroes and Villains [Re: Czereda]
Creatura Noptii Offline
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Registered: 01/02/16
Posts: 950
Loc: Oregon
 Originally Posted By: CZ
Both a hero and an antihero are still motivated by the traumatic experiences they got through in the past.


Most experience some form of trauma in their life. You are also confusing the anti hero, only unlike most, you confuse it with a villain. They're neither or.

Allow me to quote myself (from a recent PM on the subject):

 Originally Posted By: CN
The anti-hero is self reliant, he is not out to save a lost loved one, or gotten down by departure, nor stressed by broken moral code, and is often prepared for treachery. He doesn't live his life disgruntled either. For an anti-hero there is no betrayal, since there are no real friends. There are worthy business partners, or lying crooks. That's The Wild West...

I should also clarify: "not being able to break the ties that bond."

The common villain is just butthurt because the moral code didn't accept or reward them like they expected, and the hero can't self validate without going the extra bat-shit miles to uphold it.

Neither one can remove themselves from their moral conditioning. One is fighting for it, the other taking revenge on it.

Point is, hero or villain, the greater good (usually social moral code), takes the steering wheel, while self-validation takes a back seat.

A real Satanist IMO, doesn't live their life mad at society, or reckless like a crazed villain, but isn't a saviour. They aren't boring, they don't drudge through life, they don't want much to do with anyone for too long, and would rather see people get their own shit together than being hero of the day.


 Originally Posted By: CM
That wasn't about response to trauma, though it can be. The drive I speak of knows no moral inclination and cannot be ascribed to anything specific.

Like I said, it's special order.

Which means that "core" can manifest in the inverse depending on the initial position and how they are pushed.


I never mentioned trauma in my post, I was using our young friend Alex as an example of an anti-hero, and of what you call a 'special order.' I also wanted to use him in my 666th post, and it was the perfect opportunity to do so. Moloko Plus for everyone!
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#113443 - 07/12/17 09:57 PM Re: Heroes and Villains [Re: Czereda]
samowens84 Offline
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Registered: 09/29/16
Posts: 465
 Originally Posted By: Czereda
primary motivation, they focus on someone else's life, instead of their own.

I don't agree with you that there is no moral inclination here. There must be some moral judgement even if we are talking about revenge.


I have to respectfully disagree. It can involve a "moral" element, but not necessarily. Power is the true goal. Someone had power over them, and assuming either archetype helps to psychologically compensate for the impotence caused by trauma. If "morality" plays a factor, it is only because the power compensation must navigate the preexisting moral structure to avoid cognitive dissonance, not necessarily because it plays any significant motivating factor. Not that it never does, just that it is not necessary. Carnal desire is the driving force not principle in most cases. The problem comes not when people play out the pattern, but when prior conditioning insists that it is only justifiable if self interest is excluded. Justification is not really necessary if one is honest with oneself that passion for power is the only justification necessary. From there one can add whatever additional passion power serves witbout self contradiction.

Also, why must someone exclusively act on their own behalf to the detriment of others, or vice versa? Could not someone have some of these propensities and not neglect the self? What makes them mutually exclusive? Seems that someone could still behave in such ways and still maintain their self interest.


Edited by samowens84 (07/12/17 10:33 PM)

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