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#11349 - 09/10/08 12:29 PM The Large Hadron Collider
DistroyA Offline
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It recently come to my attention of this device that's planned to be used within the next couple of months. Probably old news to others, but I'd only heard of it in the last 24 hours.

I don't know much about it, and I'm not really boned up on physics, but from what I've heard, there's a good chance that they might fuck up the experiment and end existence as we know it by creating a black hole. They say it's a very small chance, but ANY chance of creating a black hole on Earth, no matter how small, isn't worth risking in my opinion.

And all this risk, just to create the "God Particle". I hope it's worth the risk, and it had better be the scientific find of all time.

What are your views on this matter?
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#11350 - 09/10/08 12:35 PM Re: The Large Hadron Collider [Re: DistroyA]
Nemesis Offline
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I'd heard of it a few months ago. Does anyone know how long it takes for a black hole to form? If it takes at least a few minutes, I'd hope one of the scientists would be smart enough to hit the "OFF" switch!

They started doing test runs on it today. We're all still alive ;).
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#11351 - 09/10/08 12:42 PM Re: The Large Hadron Collider [Re: Nemesis]
DistroyA Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Nemesis
I'd heard of it a few months ago. Does anyone know how long it takes for a black hole to form? If it takes at least a few minutes, I'd hope one of the scientists would be smart enough to hit the "OFF" switch!

They started doing test runs on it today. We're all still alive ;).
Did they? Crikey. That's probably the reason why my friend mentioned it over MSN last night.

My dad ended up joking about one of his work mates telling him the world's going to end today after he got back from work. Seems to me that everyone knows about it in some respects.

In all fairness, even the smallest of risks of creating a [b]black hole, no matter how small[/] is is not worth taking. But that's my view on it. After all, I want to actually live, rather than sit here, knowing that there's no more I can do with my life, since it'll all be in vain.

I dunno. I guess my mood is pretty low right now, and this news isn't doing it any favours.
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#11352 - 09/10/08 12:44 PM Re: The Large Hadron Collider [Re: DistroyA]
Diavolo Offline
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The 'black hole' killing potential is a joke, don't take it serious.

They just shoot particles and try to gain more understanding about what happens at a quantum level.
The also will try to recreate a mini big bang to see what happened before point n at which we're stuck now. It might affirm some theories or lead to new ones.

I find it exciting at some level.

In case they are wrong about the black hole, know you probably won't notice them creating it. We'll be mashed potatoes in a split second.

Large Hadron Rap

D.

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#11354 - 09/10/08 12:49 PM Re: The Large Hadron Collider [Re: Diavolo]
DistroyA Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
The 'black hole' killing potential is a joke, don't take it serious.

They just shoot particles and try to gain more understanding about what happens at a quantum level.
The also will try to recreate a mini big bang to see what happened before point n at which we're stuck now. It might affirm some theories or lead to new ones.

I find it exciting at some level.

In case they are wrong about the black hole, know you probably won't notice them creating it. We'll be mashed potatoes in a split second.

Large Hadron Rap

D.
I hope you're right about it just being a joke.

In some respects, it is a bit exciting to think about, but I really don't want this life to end really, just because some scientist made the slightest incorrect calculations. It had better be worth it is all I can say.
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#11355 - 09/10/08 12:53 PM Re: The Large Hadron Collider [Re: DistroyA]
Diavolo Offline
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To be honest, I'd not mind death by black hole.
It sure would be spiffy.

None of us wants their life to end but the moment you are born you start dying. If it isn't a black hole, it might be black car smashing into you, or a stupid disease or just your body failing.

Every moment can be the last, we just kinda ignore that most of the time.

D.

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#11356 - 09/10/08 03:15 PM Re: The Large Hadron Collider [Re: Diavolo]
DistroyA Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
To be honest, I'd not mind death by black hole.
It sure would be spiffy.

None of us wants their life to end but the moment you are born you start dying. If it isn't a black hole, it might be black car smashing into you, or a stupid disease or just your body failing.

Every moment can be the last, we just kinda ignore that most of the time.

D.
You've got a point there. Oh well, I guess we'll have to wait and see what happens in the next couple of months, eh?
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#11369 - 09/10/08 09:01 PM Re: The Large Hadron Collider [Re: DistroyA]
Nemesis Offline
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Just think: If we can recreate the Big Bang, or even come to an entirely different conclusion about how the universe started, holy shit! There'd be a world-wide "In your FACE bitches!" to the Creationists and like-minded individuals. Their entire stance is rooted in, "Well, we don't KNOW how the universe started!" If we could DEFINITIVELY prove them wrong, meet me at the bar and I'll buy a round for everyone.

Even if Earth was ripped apart by a black hole, at least we have recordings of Elvis floating around the galaxy.
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#11383 - 09/11/08 06:25 AM Re: The Large Hadron Collider [Re: Nemesis]
Impius Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Nemesis
Even if Earth was ripped apart by a black hole, at least we have recordings of Elvis floating around the galaxy.


"Thank God", humanity's memories are safe ! xD

Well, I don't know if it would be enough to defeat creationists' rethoric. Let's say these scientists are able to recreate the Big Bang :
 Quote:
Well, that's beautiful, but how can you be sure this is what happened ? We don't really know...
Or even worse :
 Quote:
Yep, the Universe was created with the Big Bang, which was God's way of making it.

RAAAH will you stfu !?

Their conviction of having a God behind it all is unbreakable because they can't stand the fact there's none... too scary, to hard to imagine.
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#11385 - 09/11/08 07:47 AM Re: The Large Hadron Collider [Re: Impius]
Nemesis Offline
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Article: http://www.tampabay.com/incoming/article803794.ece
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#11390 - 09/11/08 09:30 AM Re: The Large Hadron Collider [Re: Nemesis]
Diavolo Offline
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I doubt many religious-minded will change their opinion when we recreate a bigbang at miniature level and are able to explain about everything that happened. Even if they'd accept the scientific theory about how things came into existance, they'd probably insert god as the grand igniter and adapt their seven days lore to a cosmic scale.

Religious minded will, sadly, never be proved wrong because they always find a new loophole to insert their pipe-dreams. If they'd be open to scientific input, they'd already dropped their religion the moment Darwin presented his theory.

D.

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#11391 - 09/11/08 09:33 AM Re: The Large Hadron Collider [Re: Diavolo]
Nemesis Offline
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*sigh* Yeah, I know. Wishful thinking on my part. ;\)
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#11410 - 09/11/08 09:11 PM Re: The Large Hadron Collider [Re: Nemesis]
fakepropht Moderator Offline
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But the offer of the free beer still stands, right? Count me as one of the ignorant, too. Until this thread started, I had no knowledge of this experiment/test. I am now looking into several sources about it. Sounds cool as all hell. I agree with D, it won't change the opinion of organized religion. They may have to rewrite some of their mythology, adapt, adjust.
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#11411 - 09/11/08 09:27 PM Re: The Large Hadron Collider [Re: fakepropht]
Nemesis Offline
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Of course!

Hawking stipulated that any black holes that might form when the collider was running would disappear almost instantly, since Earth's gravity is infinitely stronger than tbe draw of a wee black hole. That made me feel better \:D
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#11451 - 09/13/08 06:33 PM Re: The Large Hadron Collider [Re: Nemesis]
DistroyA Offline
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Thankfully, I'm worrying less and less about the "threats" now. I guess this is due to being misinformed really. Speaking to people I know to be honest and know what they're talking about has relieved me. Plus the fact that the LHC was tested on Wednesday morning has triggered me to joke about the black hole scare.

On a lighter note, for those who are still worried (Doubtful, but this is a good article to read...), here's a blog entry I've been directed to;

Explanation of what the LHC can do, and what it won't do...
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#11457 - 09/14/08 06:20 AM Re: The Large Hadron Collider [Re: DistroyA]
ZephyrGirl Offline
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They have only started testing DistroyA, they haven't actually smashed any protons yet, that's a couple of weeks away still.

Zeph
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#11470 - 09/15/08 09:26 AM Re: The Large Hadron Collider [Re: ZephyrGirl]
DistroyA Offline
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 Originally Posted By: ZephyrGirl
They have only started testing DistroyA, they haven't actually smashed any protons yet, that's a couple of weeks away still.

Zeph
Whichever. It's still all good to have a laugh about it, rather than get panicky over it like I have done. ;\)
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#11476 - 09/15/08 06:40 PM Re: The Large Hadron Collider [Re: DistroyA]
ta2zz Offline
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HAARP is a much scarier project with worse possible uses and/or repercussions... Why has the weather changed since HAARP started playing?

~T~

Shhhhh there is nothing to see here... Pay me no mind...
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#11496 - 09/16/08 04:22 AM Re: The Large Hadron Collider [Re: ta2zz]
DistroyA Offline
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 Originally Posted By: ta2zz

HAARP is a much scarier project with worse possible uses and/or repercussions... Why has the weather changed since HAARP started playing?

~T~

Shhhhh there is nothing to see here... Pay me no mind...
Okay, I skimmed through an article on the HAARP project, and I didn't see anything to do with the weather on it. All I saw was the fact that it's designed to research communication frequencies. Unless I'm not looking in the right places of course... =S
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#11649 - 09/20/08 09:47 AM Good News For DistroyA [Re: DistroyA]
Nemesis Offline
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The world's largest atom smasher -- which was launched with great fanfare earlier this month -- is more badly damaged than previously thought and will be out of commission for at least two months, its operators said Saturday.

Full article on CNN
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#11662 - 09/20/08 06:20 PM Re: Good News For DistroyA [Re: Nemesis]
DistroyA Offline
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Yeah, I've read about it through a friend of mine.

I'm now hoping they can get it repaired quick enough so we can see results of the experiments sooner, rather than later.
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#11676 - 09/21/08 12:18 AM Re: Good News For DistroyA [Re: DistroyA]
ta2zz Offline
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Damn it the end of the world has been put off a couple of months... Do micro black holes melt electrical connections?

~T~

P.S. In answer to your last question... How could heating up the ionosphere change the weather...
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#11713 - 09/21/08 08:05 PM Re: Good News For DistroyA [Re: ta2zz]
DistroyA Offline
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 Originally Posted By: ta2zz
P.S. In answer to your last question... How could heating up the ionosphere change the weather...
Like my mind could comprehend that sort of thing. If anything, I don't think I was very good at Physics, but there ya go. Then again, even though science intrigues and fascinates me, I've never been very good at it. It's one of my weaker areas of knowledge.
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#11815 - 09/25/08 02:29 PM Re: Good News For DistroyA [Re: DistroyA]
Dimitri Offline
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 Quote:
P.S. In answer to your last question... How could heating up the ionosphere change the weather...

I think I can answer on this part. The ionosphere is a sphere around the earth that reflects some of the radio golves from the sun/earth. But as far as I know the ionosphere has no influence on our weather... Maybe you made a mistake and it is some other sphere around the earth.
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#12239 - 10/05/08 06:08 PM Re: The Large Hadron Collider [Re: DistroyA]
ta2zz Offline
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While reading my email I noticed I was sent this...

... Black holes are spoken of as scientific facts and it is routinely claimed that they have been detected at the centres of galaxies. Images of black holes having their wicked ways with surrounding matter are routinely included with reports of them. Some physicists even claim that black holes will be created in particle accelerators, such as the Large Hadron Collider, potentially able to swallow the Earth. Despite the assertions of the astronomers and astrophysicists, nobody has ever found a black hole, anywhere, let alone "imaged" one. ...

I thought of this thread and felt the need to share the link...

The Black Hole Catastrophe and the Collapse of Spacetime

Enjoy

~T~
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#12242 - 10/05/08 06:58 PM Re: The Large Hadron Collider [Re: ta2zz]
Fabiano Offline
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I think there is a big difference between black hole as they exists in the universe or galaxies and the one that could pop up in the LHC.

The first result could result of the death of the massive star. There is a very big amount of matter.
The second will be so tiny that they will have few chance to interract with the surrounding matter. The matter consisty mainly in void, empty space. There so few matter in this kind of black hole that as soon as the particles "mutate" the black hole loses energy and finish by just vanishing.
Nothing is eternal, not even black holes...


Edited by Fabiano (10/05/08 06:59 PM)

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#12247 - 10/05/08 07:36 PM Re: The Large Hadron Collider [Re: Fabiano]
DistroyA Offline
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Thing is, I've read up that Black Holes can only suck in matter that is relative to it's size, and that micro variants will dissolve due to them not being able to retain themselves (Or something along those lines anyway...). The possibility of one consuming the Earth is quite small. So small that it's hardly visible.

Yes, I've changed my tune drastically since my first post on this thread. But I've been educated since then. =P


Edited by DistroyA (10/05/08 07:37 PM)
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#12248 - 10/05/08 08:22 PM Re: The Large Hadron Collider [Re: DistroyA]
Fabiano Offline
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Yep! Less ignorance, less stupidity, less pain \:D

Like this we go down the road...

Cheers,

Fabiano

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#12320 - 10/07/08 02:59 PM Re: The Large Hadron Collider [Re: Fabiano]
Dimitri Offline
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 Quote:
Despite the assertions of the astronomers and astrophysicists, nobody has ever found a black hole, anywhere, let alone "imaged" one. ...

Is this site you have the text from a bit outdated?
In the world of astronomers it is wideley known that in the center of our galaxy there is a black hole. Black holes can be found if you look closely at the stars. It is known that not even light can escape from it. If you are photographing a star and notice for a certain period of time the light is "bended" or dissapeared for a while while other stars still shine bright, you can say you may have found a black hole.
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#12332 - 10/07/08 07:43 PM Re: The Large Hadron Collider [Re: Dimitri]
ta2zz Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
In the world of astronomers it is wideley known that in the center of our galaxy there is a black hole. Black holes can be found if you look closely at the stars. It is known that not even light can escape from it. If you are photographing a star and notice for a certain period of time the light is "bended" or dissapeared for a while while other stars still shine bright, you can say you may have found a black hole.

More likely a planet…

Dare to think outside of the box for one minute…

http://www.thunderbolts.info/thunderblogs/guest.htm also seen before as The Black Hole Catastrophe and the Collapse of Spacetime is a link to the article… This is a step towards understanding how this forums code works… I might also point out that it is better to reply to the person you are speaking not just quick reply to the last person in the thread…

No it is not old it is dated September 30th 2008… Perhaps reading the article you may understand that it speaks out about the fact that the modern scientific community is run by money not information… Black holes have never been seen or proven period… In fact according to this article and the math provided it is not a possibility using the theory of relativity or physics that a black hole can exist… This is why science has to make extraordinary claims about unknown states of matter to make them feasible…

One can follow the lead sheep right over the cliff or one can read the facts and draw their own conclusion…

I would say more but this deserves its own thread…

~T~
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#12414 - 10/09/08 02:20 PM Re: The Large Hadron Collider [Re: ta2zz]
Dimitri Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Ta2zz
More likely a planet…

Ever seen a planet bend light? To "bend" light you need heavy electromagnetic fields OR another power that can be found within a black hole (actually it is some sort of extreme gravity force fields...).

 Originally Posted By: Ta2zz
Perhaps reading the article you may understand that it speaks out about the fact that the modern scientific community is run by money not information…

Then again, if you think critical and outside the bubble. What doesn't run on money? This site runs on money, the site with the article runs on money,... everything does except our toughts.

 Quote:
Black holes have never been seen or proven period…
A fair question: ever opened up another scientifique book or site talking about black holes except for this one? And I don't want to be rude, but I did. And seriously they talked about it and how it was discovered. NG has some interesting documentaries about it, euhm.. I don't know if these series are published in the US but: "Heelal" (dutch for space) is a scientifique magazine about the universe and has some very interesting articles about it,... and so on.

Anyway; about black holes I have no doubts they exist and that some are discovered. Dark energy and matter on the other hand.. well about that I have some serious doubts..

I wouldn't talk about "following the lead sheep" and so on. I'm quite critical myself but as a person who knows a bit or 2 about science I can say that most of the information I give (and wich is global and easy explained) is 99.9% right. However if I go into detail It is possible I make mistakes.
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#12419 - 10/09/08 04:11 PM Re: The Large Hadron Collider [Re: Dimitri]
Diavolo Offline
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Actually, Ta2zz is right. Up to today there is no 100% proof for black holes. Most objects discovered have the potential to be one and in my humble opinion will turn out being one but until they can actually see the event horizon, it isn't sure it really is a black hole.

D.

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#12452 - 10/10/08 08:12 AM Re: The Large Hadron Collider [Re: Diavolo]
Dimitri Offline
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 Quote:
Actually, Ta2zz is right. Up to today there is no 100% proof for black holes

NOW I agree. Ta2zz said "there never was". I say there is but not 100% accurate or 100% proof it exsited. Slight difference in nuance. \:\)
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#12470 - 10/10/08 07:21 PM Re: The Large Hadron Collider [Re: Dimitri]
ta2zz Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
Ever seen a planet bend light?

See Transit method... Not bend but block light... It is but one way extrasolar planets are detected...

 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
To "bend" light you need heavy electromagnetic fields OR another power that can be found within a black hole (actually it is some sort of extreme gravity force fields...).

Well now what makes a magnetic force better than electricity? Read the article I provided the link to about black holes, prove it by using something said there as a basis for debate... Otherwise you are simply continuing to build your argument on what you think is being said...

Thank you...

~T~
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#12498 - 10/11/08 09:47 AM Re: The Large Hadron Collider [Re: ta2zz]
Dimitri Offline
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 Quote:
Well now what makes a magnetic force better than electricity?

Can I say that the earth has an electromagnetic field without some sort of plug wich gives electricity and generates a magnetic field?

You can say suns with large masses may have a field powerfull enough to bend it, but this seems impossible. The power needed is enormous. Even the elektromagnetic field in our solarsystem isn't strong enough. (And not to say the least, this field produced by all our planets, sun, asteroids,.. within is already gigantic. But within the universe it is compaired to nothing.)

But still, if you had taken your time and read my 2nd response I agreed under the condition we are not 100% sure black holes exist. Only (don't know...) 40-50% sure they may exist? Wich means: it can exist, there are methods to find one, but we may have not found one till this very moment but we think they may be one within our galaxy...
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#12503 - 10/11/08 06:16 PM Re: The Large Hadron Collider [Re: Dimitri]
Fabiano Offline
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 Quote:
Can I say that the earth has an electromagnetic field without some sort of plug wich gives electricity and generates a magnetic field?

You can say suns with large masses may have a field powerfull enough to bend it, but this seems impossible. The power needed is enormous. Even the elektromagnetic field in our solarsystem isn't strong enough. (And not to say the least, this field produced by all our planets, sun, asteroids,.. within is already gigantic. But within the universe it is compaired to nothing.)


Well, the electromagnetic field of the earth is supposed to be generated by the rotation of its metalic center.

The field which bends the light is the gravity field, not the electromagnétic one. The photons are not charged and thus not influenced by electromagnetic field...

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#12534 - 10/11/08 10:42 PM Re: The Large Hadron Collider [Re: Dimitri]
ta2zz Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
Can I say that the earth has an electromagnetic field without some sort of plug wich gives electricity and generates a magnetic field?

So in your mind you need a wire and/or plug to move electricity? Let me point you to Birkeland Currents… You can do a bit of research by clicking on this word HERE… Also let me point you to electromagnetic induction and THIS VIDEO… This will show you how we know that the interaction of magnetic fields creates electricity…

 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
You can say suns with large masses may have a field powerfull enough to bend it, but this seems impossible.

Are we talking about bending light? The current mainstream science community believes that some stars can bend time… SEE HERE I would have to say that the same people whose ideas you are trying to defend would say that if time can be bent then of course light would follow suit… Would bending time not affect the speed of light?

 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
The power needed is enormous.

Imagine if you will the galactic sized bolt of energy that could create something like THIS

 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
But still, if you had taken your time and read my 2nd response I agreed under the condition we are not 100% sure black holes exist. Only (don't know...) 40-50% sure they may exist?

Where do you come up with these percentages? If you had taken the time to read or even skim the article I linked to sir… You would understand at least using the math and argument provided that the theory of black holes does not hold up under the theory of relativity… You say you understand that we are dealing with a theory nothing more… Yet you fail to understand that fact alone means that these percentages of which you speak have no place in this discussion…

 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
Wich means: it can exist, there are methods to find one, but we may have not found one till this very moment but we think they may be one within our galaxy...

Some think there is a supreme god that watches over us in the sky… There may yet be a method to prove this but as of today we have not found one… Until then faith powers this belief…

God, Santa, the Easter Bunny, Black holes all fit into the same group for me… But what should you expect from a group of people (modern scientists) growing up believing in such make believe?

When you start needing to invent fantastic unknown states of matter (yet another theory) to justify a current theory there is clearly no difference between a black hole and God…

Thanks

~T~
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#12535 - 10/11/08 10:43 PM Re: The Large Hadron Collider [Re: Fabiano]
ta2zz Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 1552
Loc: Connecticut

 Originally Posted By: Fabiano
The photons are not charged

This is what is at question...

~T~
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We are the music makers, And we are the dreamers of dreams. ~Arthur William Edgar O'Shaughnessy

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#12550 - 10/12/08 04:05 AM Re: The Large Hadron Collider [Re: ta2zz]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3119
 Quote:
So in your mind you need a wire and/or plug to move electricity? Let me point you to Birkeland Currents… You can do a bit of research by clicking on this word HERE…

No, I already knew that, but to me it looked like you were thinking you needed an electronic plug...

 Quote:
I would have to say that the same people whose ideas you are trying to defend would say that if time can be bent then of course light would follow suit…

I'm not defending anyones ideas. I'm just talking pure scientifique facts. And I don't believe in time bending thank you very much..

 Quote:
Where do you come up with these percentages? If you had taken the time to read or even skim the article I linked to sir… You would understand at least using the math and argument provided that the theory of black holes does not hold up under the theory of relativity… You say you understand that we are dealing with a theory nothing more… Yet you fail to understand that fact alone means that these percentages of which you speak have no place in this discussion…

1) The numbers of percentages I gave are not right, I know that. It is just some kind of measurement of certitude it can be lower, it can be higher.
2)The theory of relativity is also a theory and not 100% right. Because of that fact dark matter and dark energy has been called to life. Nothing more, nothing less. I'm not saying that theory is wrong, I'm only saying that theory may be incomplete.
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