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#113573 - 07/21/17 09:38 PM Reduced sentences for getting on birth control
XiaoGui17 Offline
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Registered: 10/21/09
Posts: 1342
Loc: Austin, TX
The story:
http://www.newschannel5.com/news/inmates-given-reduced-jail-time-if-they-get-a-vasectomy

As a lawyer:
(1) The ACLU is correct; this is in flagrant violation of a huge bulk of SCOTUS precedent, and
(2) Fucking yes, I wish every county would follow suit. Fuck the fucking constitution, this is beautiful.

I especially like Benningfield's gamesmanship about helping them get their lives back together. Glorious way to disguise this gutter scraping as compassion.

I'm vaguely peeved that PP & company are bitching about it. They truly are "pro-choice".

I am not pro-choice. I am pro eugenics. This is fucking awesome.
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#113583 - 07/22/17 07:24 PM Re: Reduced sentences for getting on birth control [Re: XiaoGui17]
Dark Magician Offline
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Registered: 04/24/14
Posts: 151
I am fucking against this, and I am fucking against eugenics. This is fucking terrible.

I just see this as an attempt by people in established positions of power, for example the government etc., to control and limit the opportunities of other people who are regarded as outsiders, Others, and trouble makers etc.

Fucking crazy – some guy gets some time wiped from his sentence as a reward for giving up his right to procreate – fuck the bureaucrats who designed this thing and fuck you.

Again fuck you and fuck your eugenics. You certainly are a servant of the system and it damned well shows.

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#113584 - 07/22/17 07:50 PM Re: Reduced sentences for getting on birth control [Re: Dark Magician]
ShadowLover Offline
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Registered: 05/26/16
Posts: 351
Loc: Gold Coast, Australia
I'm of two... or three minds about this.

I don't mind the government offering troubled people free vasectomies and whatever that needle is... Maybe some of them don't want the burden of children but are too drug-fucked to organise the prevention themselves. This opportunity might just be the convenient solution they were looking for.

But I don't agree with trading it off for a reduced sentence. Addictions leave people vulnerable, and the government is taking advantage of their vulnerability - seems unethical...

Then again, if people allow themselves to be manipulated like this than it is on them. I just wonder where it stops. If the government is allowed to manipulate this vulnerable group, I wonder who is next.

Who else don't we want to breed? Poor people? Sick people? Ugly people?
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#113585 - 07/22/17 07:59 PM Re: Reduced sentences for getting on birth control [Re: Dark Magician]
Kori Houghton Offline
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Registered: 11/23/15
Posts: 182
Loc: East Coast USA
 Originally Posted By: Dark Magician
I just see this as an attempt by people in established positions of power, for example the government etc., to control and limit the opportunities of other people who are regarded as outsiders, Others, and trouble makers etc.


Simply being "regarded as outsiders, Others, and trouble makers etc." isn't (usually) enough to get your butt in the slammer. These people were convicted and sentenced.

 Originally Posted By: Dark Magician
Fucking crazy – some guy gets some time wiped from his sentence as a reward for giving up his right to procreate – fuck the bureaucrats who designed this thing and fuck you.


Not a lot of time. The article I read in the WP mentioned something like 30 days. Their sentences are not being extended if they don't accept the offer.

And I wouldn't actually call this offer "eugenics" since no one is being forced to do anything. For the women, the birth control option offered is completely reversible. It's likely that the men already fathered children before being incarcerated.
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#113588 - 07/22/17 09:07 PM Re: Reduced sentences for getting on birth control [Re: Kori Houghton]
Creatura Noptii Offline
active member


Registered: 01/02/16
Posts: 950
 Originally Posted By: XG
I am not pro-choice. I am pro eugenics. This is fucking awesome.


Eugenics is a whole other thing. The goal is to prevent accidental births and kids being raised by drug-addicted parents and growing up neglected and abused. This is about cutting the link in the behavioural, not the physical.

 Originally Posted By: XG
Glorious way to disguise this gutter scraping as compassion.


From what I understand this isn't forced, its a choice and the judge is ready to reverse his order if commanded. There's no real gutter cleaning here. Whether he's honest or not, you really think all the fat fucks out there aren't reproducing at higher rates than those in jail?

 Originally Posted By: DM
for example the government etc., to control and limit the opportunities of other people who are regarded as outsiders, Others, and trouble makers etc.

Fucking crazy-


Yup. But that's the world dude. Seriously, I got over the whole 'sytem' bit a few years ago. The world is a chaotic place. I agree eugenics is complete illogical crap, but that's that fucker called 'the world' for ya.

 Originally Posted By: SL
the government is taking advantage... seems unethical...


...The fuck's new?

 Originally Posted By: SL
Who else don't we want to breed? Poor people? Sick people? Ugly people?


Pretty much.

 Originally Posted By: KH
Simply being "regarded as outsiders, Others, and trouble makers etc." isn't (usually) enough to get your butt in the slammer. These people were convicted and sentenced.


Debatable.

 Originally Posted By: KH
since no one is being forced to do anything.


Fuck, you want people to go nuts? Tell 'em everything is OK and the world isn't as bad off as they think. See how they react. You'd think there's a fuckin' SHARKNADO outside.

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#113590 - 07/22/17 11:49 PM Re: Reduced sentences for getting on birth control [Re: Creatura Noptii]
XiaoGui17 Offline
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Registered: 10/21/09
Posts: 1342
Loc: Austin, TX
 Originally Posted By: ShadowLover
the government is taking advantage of their vulnerability - seems unethical...

Ya don't say. I don't care.

People who have shit independent decision making skills don't need to be breeding.

 Originally Posted By: SL
Who else don't we want to breed? Poor people? Sick people? Ugly people?

(1) Yeah, if you can't afford kids, don't have them.
(2) Yeah, if you have some sort of debilitating condition that makes you incapable of supporting yourself, you have no business making another person that will inevitably rely on others for support, as well. (If, however, you are coping with your condition well enough to be self-reliant, breed away!)
(3) Nah, ugly people can breed. If I don't want to see them, I won't look at them.

 Originally Posted By: Kori Houghton
 Originally Posted By: Dark Magician
I just see this as an attempt by people in established positions of power, for example the government etc., to control and limit the opportunities of other people who are regarded as outsiders, Others, and trouble makers etc.

Simply being "regarded as outsiders, Others, and trouble makers etc." isn't (usually) enough to get your butt in the slammer. These people were convicted and sentenced.

I don't know how much stock I put in the convicted and sentenced part, or even in the criminal part, but I've not seen a terribly high number of pinnacles of humanity in the revolving door of jails. I get that in theory the justice system could destroy innocent people, but in practice I end up agreeing with most of the shots it calls.

 Originally Posted By: Dark Magician
Fucking crazy – some guy gets some time wiped from his sentence as a reward for giving up his right to procreate – fuck the bureaucrats who designed this thing and fuck you.

I love how you're deeply concerned about some skiver's "right to procreate," but not at all concerned about a child's right to have a parent who actually has a snowball's chance of caring and providing for them, and incidentally being born not addicted to junk.

 Originally Posted By: KH
And I wouldn't actually call this offer "eugenics" since no one is being forced to do anything.

Eugenics can be voluntary/ incentivized.

 Originally Posted By: KH
For the women, the birth control option offered is completely reversible. It's likely that the men already fathered children before being incarcerated.

Overall improvement of the bell curve is still eugenics, even if it means pruning the trees that drop bad apples instead of uprooting them.

 Originally Posted By: Creatura Noptii
Eugenics is a whole other thing. The goal is to prevent accidental births and kids being raised by drug-addicted parents and growing up neglected and abused. This is about cutting the link in the behavioural, not the physical.

Yes, and no.

It may be nurture instead of nature that causes certain people to be fucked up, but I've seen enough to conclude that some people are just fundamentally, genetically broken, and their lifestyle that lands them in jail is a symptom of it.

It's not directly designed as eugenics, but it's incidentally going to make some headway in that direction.

 Originally Posted By: CN
Whether he's honest or not, you really think all the fat fucks out there aren't reproducing at higher rates than those in jail?

Wait, what?
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#113594 - 07/23/17 12:45 PM Re: Reduced sentences for getting on birth control [Re: XiaoGui17]
Creatura Noptii Offline
active member


Registered: 01/02/16
Posts: 950
 Originally Posted By: XG
It's not directly designed as eugenics, but it's incidentally going to make some headway in that direction.


I can see where people might think so, but there aren't enough details to categorize it.

My point is that people getting fixed in jail isn't going to make any difference in the long run. Fat idiots are reproducing their biology, both nature and nurture. They feed their children junk food and sugar three times a day, they have no interest in being good parents.

Now, the whole thing with the prisoners could be the start of an agenda, only time will tell. Far as genetically 'fucked' I don't agree. People are conditioned. Unless your talking birth defects, people are a product of their environment and upbringing.

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#113596 - 07/24/17 02:58 AM Re: Reduced sentences for getting on birth control [Re: Creatura Noptii]
XiaoGui17 Offline
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Registered: 10/21/09
Posts: 1342
Loc: Austin, TX
 Originally Posted By: Creatura Noptii
Far as genetically 'fucked' I don't agree. People are conditioned. Unless your talking birth defects, people are a product of their environment and upbringing.

Since it's a given that people can have obvious, recognizable birth defects (e.g. Down Syndrome), is it really a stretch to suggest that some defects may be more subtle, and not readily identifiable, but every bit as much genetic in nature?


Edited by XiaoGui17 (07/24/17 02:59 AM)
Edit Reason: Quote blocks
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#113598 - 07/24/17 10:56 AM Re: Reduced sentences for getting on birth control [Re: XiaoGui17]
Creatura Noptii Offline
active member


Registered: 01/02/16
Posts: 950
Possible? Yes, but I'm not about to support something as dumbfounded as eugenics, especially on mere suspicion. It screams of paranoia.

Of course they may be genetic in nature, but you're going to have to offer more than phantom bugs. In any case, even if there were 'subtle' defects, I doubt it would be as damaging as sugar consumption.

What always gets me after travel, is coming back here and seeing how god awful fat/unhealthy, pissed off and paranoid everyone is.

I'm at a point now I don't even want friends. Maybe its age, or I just don't want anything to do with anyone else's bullshit. Probably both.

Somewhere in another thread I called myself a patriot. This country accomplished a lot. I believe in freedom of speech, gun ownership, the basics. Otherwise, our society is full of paranoid libtards and fatasses.

People believe any little conspiracy, all while gulping down mass loads of sugar and fast food.

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#113599 - 07/24/17 12:08 PM Re: Reduced sentences for getting on birth control [Re: Creatura Noptii]
entropicmomentum Offline
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Registered: 08/07/12
Posts: 56
Loc: Texas
Gotta love the sanctimony at the start of this thread.

Who gets to decide what are good genes and what are bad genes? Sure, some genetic conditions are pretty straight forward, but we’re talking about human genetics not peas. This is especially problematic when one considers we do not understand all gene interactions.

That being said, we can still have a productive conversation about eugenics. I think positive eugenics is worth exploring because we’re not really talking about nature vs nurture. Nature may manifest differently based on environment. For example, you can genetically be predisposed to alcoholism, but if you never have drop of alcohol in your life, then that never manifests.

Behavior and genetics are intertwined, so if an incentive is offered to stem the genetic variable, then future behavior is taken care of. If you can’t reproduce, you can’t teach shit behaviors to children who are susceptible to shit behaviors.

As for obesity, sure there can be a vicious cycle there too, but the context of this thread is eugenics as it pertains to the criminal reform. If people being addicted to Big Macs and milkshakes were criminal, or lead to criminal activity, I could see that being more relevant. Teaching kids shit eating habits could potentially be criminal, so maybe if an adult has food addictions that leads to criminal negligence of a child’s health, then I don’t see why offering them an option to not be able to make kids wouldn’t work.
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#113601 - 07/24/17 04:44 PM Re: Reduced sentences for getting on birth control [Re: XiaoGui17]
SIN3 Offline
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Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 7190
Loc: Virginia
Personally, I think it's funny that the women are offered a 4 year contraception device, and men have to get a vasectomy to shorten their term. This speaks volumes on the threat.

Will these women miraculously turn their lives around with a 4 year stint against their egg-basket? How about men?

This bullshittery is an attempt at gentrification, not eugenics. Don't get it twisted there cupcake. This is about economics. One less baby on welfare, that's it. Nothing to celebrate.
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#113605 - 07/24/17 05:48 PM Re: Reduced sentences for getting on birth control [Re: SIN3]
Creatura Noptii Offline
active member


Registered: 01/02/16
Posts: 950

 Originally Posted By: EPM
That being said, we can still have a productive conversation about eugenics.


Eugenics is based on the segragation, prevention, and or elimination of undesireable people, based on psudo-science or rather, no factual basis other than pure bigotry.

I like to associate Satanism with sound logic. Eugenics is not that.

 Originally Posted By: EMP
I think positive eugenics


Here I laugh. If its a crusade your after, perhaps you ought to find your nearest Jesus center, go there and kneel.

 Originally Posted By: SIN3
This is about economics.


Look, someone got it right for once \:\)

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#113608 - 07/24/17 10:46 PM Re: Reduced sentences for getting on birth control [Re: SIN3]
Kori Houghton Offline
member


Registered: 11/23/15
Posts: 182
Loc: East Coast USA
 Originally Posted By: SIN3
This bullshittery is an attempt at gentrification, not eugenics. Don't get it twisted there cupcake. This is about economics. One less baby on welfare, that's it. Nothing to celebrate.


I looked at some of the demographics for White County TN, and I can't see that location having any potential for gentrification. I spent 10 years living in a similar place during the 1990s, in a county with about 20K residents (versus 23K in White Co.), outside a town (the county seat) with about 1000 residents. While there were a few extremely wealthy families living there, the majority were poor and semi-literate. That situation was maintained for reasons of economics: poor people need government and non-profit services, and administering those services meant jobs for the college educated daughters of the wealthier families without having to commute out of the area.

When I say the county had a drug problem 20 years ago, I am not basing that on articles I read in the local weekly newspaper. My husband found syringes etc at the bottom of our driveway. Called the sheriff, and was met with indifference. "Just be careful not to stick yourself when you pick up the needle." We were looking into installing a security gate across the bottom of the driveway, until we discovered that our home would not be permitted internet access (your name had to be on an approved list sent to the local ISP by the local PTB), and decided to sell out and move.

In my view, preventing even a few pregnancies is worth the effort. Seriously, even one less incident like this one is worth the effort in prevention. I have buprenorphine syringes for my cat's chronic health problems, and I have to be around to keep an eye on her for the first few hours after giving her the squirt. No way would I play doctor, and give that stuff to a baby!
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#113609 - 07/25/17 10:51 AM Re: Reduced sentences for getting on birth control [Re: SIN3]
XiaoGui17 Offline
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Registered: 10/21/09
Posts: 1342
Loc: Austin, TX
 Originally Posted By: entropicmomentum
Who gets to decide what are good genes and what are bad genes? Sure, some genetic conditions are pretty straight forward, but we’re talking about human genetics not peas. This is especially problematic when one considers we do not understand all gene interactions.

Okay, okay. My bad. Using the term "eugenics" was an unwieldy, imprecise use of language. It's not exactly what I meant, and it comes across as misguided junk science.

I don't really have a term for what it is I'd like to see. The term "culling" refers to disposing of those already born, not preventing their birth. I'd like something like pre-emptive culling.

I'm not terribly concerned with what went wrong with these people, whether it was drugs or poverty or bad genes or abuse. As in the Parable of the Poisoned Arrow, I want to fix the problem, not nit pick about the cause. I see this as a step in the right direction.

 Originally Posted By: SIN3
This bullshittery is an attempt at gentrification, not eugenics. Don't get it twisted there cupcake. This is about economics. One less baby on welfare, that's it. Nothing to celebrate.

This. That's precisely what I am celebrating.

 Originally Posted By: SIN3
Personally, I think it's funny that the women are offered a 4 year contraception device, and men have to get a vasectomy to shorten their term. This speaks volumes on the threat.

I suspect it's because (1) there's no LARC available for men, and (2) straight-up sterilizing women would cause a bit more of an uproar.
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#113613 - 07/25/17 12:27 PM Re: Reduced sentences for getting on birth control [Re: XiaoGui17]
SIN3 Offline
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Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 7190
Loc: Virginia
They don't mince words about it. The jump to Eugenics is fuzzy logic. Aside that, it doesn't knock off much time. 30 days I think? Some of these inmates have lost their entire lives while incarcerated. In their attempt to restart, sex is high on the top of the list of things they want to do. Common sense isn't applied, so yeah... Welfare babies are born.

Even if there's more of an uproar for sterilizing women, it appears the real threat is a newly released sperm gun.

Gentrification is a slow process. You start by eliminating mitigating economic factors such as a release of x # of inmates and babies that follow.
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