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#114516 - 09/28/17 01:23 PM Patriotism
entropicmomentum Offline
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Registered: 08/07/12
Posts: 56
Loc: Texas
I've seen a lot of hubbub around the NFL players kneeling for the United States National Anthem. Some people think it's disrespectful to the troops to take a knee and some think that form of expression is one of the ideal the troops fought for.

This line of thinking extends to other forms of expression that treat other national symbols in the same way. Desecrating a flag can either be seen as taboo or an exercise in the rights granted by the country for which the flag stands.

I don't really care why people burn flags, fail to stand for the anthem, fail to stand for the pledge, or whatever. It seems to me that sticking to rigid patriotic standards is no less servile than bending the knee to worship a magical bearded sky daddy.

Patriotism is a slave religion.
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#114517 - 09/28/17 02:22 PM Re: Patriotism [Re: entropicmomentum]
Phoenician Offline
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Registered: 02/16/17
Posts: 133
Loc: CA
Nail on the fucking head.

Patriotism and religious fervor are an extension of a similar predisposition. That fucking piece of cloth may as well be a cross adorned with Jeebus for how most treat it...

I remember when I was joining the Navy (before failing the drug test and then refusing to clean up) the Chief Petty Officer asked, "Why are you joinging?". To which I answered, "For the GI BILL". And the response was, "No, it's to serve your country."

And I still don't have that ability to see such "higher callings", and understand why my dad almost cried when I defaced the flag as a teenager. Some people aren't meant to "Bow down", as most are fit for indoctrination

Like you said, service of a country is service of the lord. Or as RATM said, "a yellow ribbon instead of a swastika."
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#114518 - 09/28/17 03:15 PM Re: Patriotism [Re: entropicmomentum]
Asmedious Moderator Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
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Loc: New York
Patriotism isn't about the flag itself, but what it represents, otherwise few would care about a colorful piece of cloth.

I was brought to the U.S when I was 8 years old, over forty years ago, and I often still get goose bumps when I see the American flag waving. The reaction is not to the flag itself, but the knowledge of how lucky I was to leave a satellite country of the Soviet Union.

Do you think you would have this kind of opportunity to express your disdain for patriotism if the Socialists had their way? You'd be getting a visit from their police in the middle of the night to have a “chat” with you in a locked down facility somewhere. It happened to my grandfather more then once.

Cubans weren't risking their lives in shark infested waters to see a flag waving or to hear the American national anthem, they wanted to get away from that communist shit hole.

Personally I do have an issue with people not standing for the national anthem, or disrespecting the American flag, but I support their rights to do as they please, but it is also MY right, to express my disgust for their choice.

Most of these people never traveled out of the country to places where the U.S didn't have an impact years ago. I have, and there was always a bit of uncomfortable feeling in me, even as a child to be away from the protection of the U.S.A.

These days an American, or a citizen of any Western nation can travel to most places in the world without fear from a foreign government questioning them or holding them against their Will. This isn't because Eastern blocked countries have become more enlightened on their own, but because of American influence over many decades.

Even these days many who claim to want to move over seas and try it for awhile end up coming back. So if you want to burn the American flag go for it, but I'd be willing to bet that it's not something you would try in many foreign countries with their flag.
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#114521 - 09/28/17 05:10 PM Re: Patriotism [Re: Asmedious]
Phoenician Offline
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Registered: 02/16/17
Posts: 133
Loc: CA
 Quote:
Do you think you would have this kind of opportunity to express your disdain for patriotism.


False Dilemma. You'd have it in most of Europe, Japan, Austrailia, and many other countries with only minor aesthetic variations.

 Quote:
Cubans weren't risking their lives in shark infested waters to see a flag waving or to hear the American national anthem, they wanted to get away from that communist shit hole.


And that's the remnant "Statue of Liberty" propaganda and could be copy and pasted on any "exodus" to any promised land. The U.S. is defacto "Zion", only it's called "The American Dream."
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#114523 - 09/28/17 08:15 PM Re: Patriotism [Re: Phoenician]
Asmedious Moderator Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
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 Quote:
False Dilemma. You'd have it in most of Europe, Japan, Austrailia, and many other countries with only minor aesthetic variations.


Yes, you have it in Europe NOW, but why is that? It's because the U.S was able to keep the Soviet Union at bay for decades, until the USSR collapsed. You had no such freedom in half of Europe for about 80 years. If it wasn't for the U.S, Europe would have been entirely Soviet.

Also, there are websites (freedom of speech) not only blocked in much of Europe, but you could get arrested for visiting them even today.

You think the U.S is "Zion?" Try even questioning parts of the Holocaust in Europe and even Canada. You will be fined and even jailed.
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#114524 - 09/28/17 08:36 PM Re: Patriotism [Re: Asmedious]
Phoenician Offline
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Registered: 02/16/17
Posts: 133
Loc: CA
All good points. It's a perspective thing. A "you couldn't know unless you've been there" type thing. My statements, honestly come from the shelter of western middle class privilege... Maybe that could change with a little "adversity".

I'm not a holocaust denier either. It happened, I just don't buy the historical record.

America is Zion... In the sense that it's a "promised land" for many people. It's the all purpose deliverance country...
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#114527 - 09/28/17 09:39 PM Re: Patriotism [Re: Phoenician]
Asmedious Moderator Offline
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 Quote:
My statements, honestly come from the shelter of western middle class privilege.


At least you realize that, which is a big plus compared to those in the same situation who think they know the outside world better then those who have been there.

One good thing is that if we want real facts, or at least subjective points of view from people who lived in foreign countries, you can still talk with them and find out what it was like back under non Capitalist regimes. If you took the time to talk to some people who came here from Europe between the 1940s all the way through the 1970s and ask them what it was like back then, and why they left, you might discover a few things.


I'll tell you this though, blind patriotism annoys the fuck out of me too. There are those who think the U.S.A is the greatest thing since sliced bread, and will knock your teeth out if you disagree. To me that's just as bad as blind Anti-Americanism.

I find it unfortunate that even those who love this country don't really know why they do so, except they were raised to do so. They can meet thousands of people, drive through vast spaces of all kinds, buy hundreds of things on a whim, and never really see or appreciate any of it, because they always had it.

I could go on a long ass rant about what, even today, makes the USA the greatest place in the world...fuck I could probably write a book.
For instance, no matter who you are and what you believe, you can always find people here who feel the same way as you do, and you can openly search for them without being jailed for your beliefs. You may have those who talk a lot of shit against you, but you will also find supporters.

If you travel around the country, you will find some great everyday people, who never make it unto the news or into the public eye. Of course that can be said about just about everywhere in the world, but we happen to have a bigger variety of folks because variety has always been welcome here. No matter what your heritage you are welcome here. You can celebrate it, parade it around and share it with anyone who is interested. You don't even have to learn the language if you don't want to. (Although you'd be a fool not to learn English if you had the chance, because after that you can go anywhere in the world and find someone who understand you) Of course if one holds on to their native countries heritage and language, they might miss out on all the great stuff we have to offer. The main conflict with foreigners who move here, is with the ones who want to remain foreigners, and don't really care to be "Americans." They are free to do as they wish, but when they try to push their cultural ways on us, we don't have to accept it or respect it, which creates conflict. As technically a foreigner myself, I know that you can have the best of both worlds. If you allow yourself to embrace America and it's people, it will welcome you and will even respect your native culture and boundaries, as long as you don't force it on anyone else.

Then there is the land itself; possibly one of the most fertile ground on earth, and there's a LOT of it.
If you like the mountains, you got it; vast open spaces, got that too, Forests; still plenty around. Water....whatever you want, salty, fresh, flowing, dropping, billions of gallons to suit your desires.

What the U.S had since its founding, while most of the world didn't was opportunity to succeed for anyone. Notice, it's opportunity, not a guarantee.

You know how a lot of Eastern Europeans bought those cool little cheap ass cars back in the day before Capitalism? They would save up for the full price, which could take ten or more years, then they would pay for it and then wait for delivery....which generally took about three years at least. Or they bought a used one on the black market if they had enough money, and wanted it right away.

We are definitely not a perfect utopia, but no place can be. Freedom isn't free, and sometimes it even takes some under handed dirty deals to achieve it, and unfortunately there are people who are victimized for others to be free. It may not be always fair, but neither is life. Standing for the flag might be a small salute to those "victims" themselves, a sign of appreciation for their sacrifice even if they didn't have a choice about it.

If one reads about people in history who fought for freedom in one way or another, in any country, one might realize that those of us who enjoy even some benefits of their work and sacrifices do so on the ashes of millions of these people through out history, and in my view their memory deserves a lot more respect then they are given.
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#114530 - 09/28/17 10:27 PM Re: Patriotism [Re: Asmedious]
Phoenician Offline
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Registered: 02/16/17
Posts: 133
Loc: CA
I look at it like this.

 Quote:
Yes, you have it in Europe NOW, but why is that?


The United States replaced the Vatican and/or Church of England as the dominant driver of "morality", and with that all this coopted ancient greek concepts.

And then that erodes again. America becomes like religion beyond social purpose itself. The iconography of God holding the constitution would likely be accepted without a hint of Irony by far too many still to this day.

Speaking of which...

After 9/11 the song "Born in the USA" became really popular by the total inability of the average American to comprehend lyrics and interpret contextual meaning.

So in other words: patriotism manifests as zealotry. And while The American model spread itself throughout the western and eastern worlds; that could just be an indication of its tenable qualities.  Naturally, this leaves room for various nationalist inflections... This, unfortunately trends towards a superiority complex. 

In which America becomes the country God chose to save the world... Nevermind that claim first belonging to England.

Bottom Line: Patriotism is often approached like wearing your "Sunday best".

*but at least it doesn't follow the "Turkish Secular Inflection", as you pointed out.
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#114546 - 09/29/17 02:27 PM Re: Patriotism [Re: entropicmomentum]
SIN3 Offline
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Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 7190
Loc: Virginia
 Originally Posted By: entropicmomentum
Patriotism is a slave religion.


I'm going to go ahead and play the advocate and, challenge that.

I think what people today are really angry about, is that when there is a lack of love of country, it speaks to one's Character. As well as one's action or inaction in the face of adversity. Multi-culturalism will hit an epoch, then what? Isn't diversity key to our survival?

One can be self-aware, aware of his surroundings, what's taken for granted and it not be a slave religion. Imagine this forum in Communist NK, oh wait...

I think the context matters. Even if you only address the object (flag) itself. Hear me out, Example: Recently there was a report of Iraqis that captured a city back from IS (after losing many of their men) and they were celebrating with their enemy flag in hand. That can be a motivator for their brothers in arms to continue. Or else, defect and run off right? People need to know they are making progress, that they've bled for something aside an idea. The idea is great but if it's never put into practice what do you really have? Opinionated freedom holders turning their nose up to the slave. It does take time for people to tire of their oppressors. Especially if they have no point of reference to compare. Does a North Korean know he/she has limits? Or is it that the best existence they can muster is to believe the hype to save their own lives?

What if, for a lack of love and country; we get open borders and we have to deal with the same bombings as we see on a regular basis in Europe? I'm sure many are thinking to themselves "Well, I'll just fight them!" Really now? Hundreds, thousands as one person? Who would back you up? A handful of people until they run off? Go into hiding? This is the extreme end as a theoretical but a reality that many countries face today because they've lost their patriotism. The Patriot isn't just wearing a shirt with a flag on it, or pledging allegiance to it for that matter. Real Patriots don't get over powered by ideas because it's trending. They stand by their convictions no matter the blow back. At the end of the day, what do you stand for? What would you stand against? Who would join you? Who would give you the bird and tell you that you're on your own?

People talk a lot. When the shit hits the fan, you find out what you're really made of. I don't really have a dog in the race that these people are taking a knee for. Even if I've personally been roughed up by police. I wasn't deluded at the time to think I was granted special treatment because I'm female. On the flip side to that, these civil servants are accessible to us as citizens. Cops have saved my life more than once. I think one can move around the law, and acknowledge who the enforces are simultaneously. It's not like cops have gone rogue, formed a militia and are picking people off as snipers. When you actively engage, you have to be aware of everything around you. Including the limits of your rebellion.

I don't think people defend it because they are just wholesale slaves. If you treat it on an individual basis, you may have a change of mind about it. Especially when one can burn our country's flag and not get decapitated for it.
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#114551 - 09/29/17 05:41 PM Re: Patriotism [Re: entropicmomentum]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
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Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2721
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: entropicmomentum
the NFL players kneeling

NFL games are private-sector business, not official national/governmental functions.

Of course symbols like the flag and the anthem can be used in both official and non-official situations. But bad taste or immaturity in the latter is just that, reflecting on the individuals, not the symbols. I think mature citizens should see it that way and ignore the jerks accordingly.

One of the corollaries to Parkinson's Law is that the amount of attention people pay to an issue varies inversely with its complexity. When I was the budget officer at HQ US Army Reserves, I regularly brought up multimillion$ budget issues at staff meetings. Usually all the colonels and generals remained silent. But if there was an agenda item to decide whether office coffee breaks should be 15 minutes or 20 minutes, absolutely everyone had voiced an opinion, often a passionate one.

Right now the USA has real problems with hurricanes, borders, taxes, all the stupid endless wars, not to mention wacko North Korea. Spending more than 2 seconds on what some doofus football players do seems excessive under the circumstances.

 Quote:
Patriotism is a slave religion.

Only if you reduce it to "My Country Right or Wrong", which is rather the secular counterpart to "The Bible Sez It, I Beleive It, That Ends It".

There was a bit of a Chinese Fire-Drill (obsolete non-PC arm) about this at the end of WW2, when at Nürnberg the Allies applies one standard to Nazi Germany and another to themselves. Which turned the entire exercise into mere political theater.

"Patriotism" basically means automatic loyalty to a nation-state in an international community defined by nation-states. The usual contrast is some kind of supranationalism, like socialism, communism, or anarchism. The interhuman problems remain; they're just rephrased and re-contextualized.
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#114553 - 09/29/17 05:51 PM Re: Patriotism [Re: Asmedious]
CCB Offline
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Registered: 05/24/17
Posts: 25
Loc: United States
 Quote:
Patriotism isn't about the flag itself, but what it represents, otherwise few would care about a colorful piece of cloth.


The problem is that the American flag represents an entire nation. Including all good and bad aspects of it, whether it's the relative freedom that you enjoy, or the policy of wantonly killing civilians in foreign countries. It's almost like a Rorschach test, with the moral value of the thing being seen deciding the reaction of any given person. For this reason you and others who respect the flag can easily find common ground with people who do not, because you are in many cases not reacting to the same thing. Unless the U.S government passes an official decree about the specific symbolism of the flag, this will remain an issue. An extremely petty one at that.

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#114554 - 09/29/17 06:19 PM Re: Patriotism [Re: entropicmomentum]
Czereda Offline
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Registered: 03/14/11
Posts: 2118
Loc: Poland
 Quote:
It seems to me that sticking to rigid patriotic standards is no less servile than bending the knee to worship a magical bearded sky daddy.


In many cases, what you describe is nothing more than habitual behavior or imitation. You've been taught to stand for a national anthem so you do it. You did it so many times that you got used to it. You see other people do it so you do that too. Monkey see, monkey do. You don't want to stand out.

In other cases, it's tribalism. Venerating national symbols builds the feeling of community. It can be useful in times of emergency, like war, economic crisis or natural disaster. It's in those difficult times that plenty of people can put off their selfish aims to come together and fight for something bigger they feel they are the part of.

You can despise this kind of attitude for sure but, as Aquino noticed, we live in a reality of nation states and the alternative for that is what? Socialism, anarchism, right, I would add cosmopolitanism to that bag too. It's like trading one master for another master, one bullshit for another bullshit.

I daresay, some degree of nationalism and xenophobia is healthy. Nature made us distrustful of the Other for purpose. That natural mechanism can get pathological but it can also save your ass. The countries which accepted immigrants indiscriminately learned it the hard way. Or didn't. Sometimes, it's easier to ignore the reality and live the lie instead.

Now if someone destroyed the flag or was sitting during the anthem, what could that behavior manifest? The worst scenario would be a fine, you run for the same risk if you pee on the city lawn. That would hardly get you a martyrdom laurel or even a villain stigma.


Edited by Czereda (09/29/17 06:20 PM)
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#116613 - 07/28/18 10:44 AM Re: Patriotism [Re: Czereda]
Timi Offline
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Registered: 07/28/18
Posts: 7
Loc: Finland
Defending and loving your homeland is up to each individual. I'm a hardcore patriot. I would like to see Europe finding it's pagan roots again, getting rid of all the abrahamic religions - christianity, judaism and islam - they all want to convert people and spread the word.
I've seen how islam has become an enemy. Fight fire with fire.
I live in Finland. We have fought the commies in 1939 and 1940, when they invaded.
Yeah, kill those who want to kill you.
Everyone has a right to have a homeland.
Hippies don't survive.
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#116625 - 07/29/18 07:06 AM Re: Patriotism [Re: Timi]
Zeno Offline
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Only the Basque and Sami have any claim on integrity of their race, everyone else deludes themselves they are pure or will be pure as a race. Anyone who has studied the movement of peoples over the last 2000 years knows such ideas are a delusion.
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#116634 - 07/30/18 06:06 AM Re: Patriotism [Re: Zeno]
ShadowLover Offline
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Posts: 351
Loc: Gold Coast, Australia
I consider myself a patriot but I don't necessarily agree with everything the govt does. I love my country and our culture. To me, patriotism is about preserving the core personality of a culture.

As far as the national anthem goes... "Advance Australia Fair." Extremely few Australians know more than the first verse, and most of us think even that reeks! Seriously, it has a high note that no one can hit. And it has words that nobody has used in over 100 years. At one stage, people were talking about changing it to "Waltzing Matilda", because everybody knows and loves that song. But it was decided it was inappropriate to have a national anthem about a sheep thief. LOL. ...I have to agree.

Patriotism is a bit like the difference between you calling your brother an idiot and some other arsehole calling your brother an idiot. You don't have to like the anthem, we don't care, but just get up and sing the fucking thing, and if you don't your an un-Australian cunt.

Being a patriot is about embracing the bullshit, because it is your bullshit. There is beauty in imperfection.

"Australia... Love it or leave!"
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