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#115348 - 12/12/17 11:21 AM Civic Nationalism is NOT enough
SIN3 Offline
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See also: Liberal Nationalism [i.e. non-xenophobic, tolerant, equality, equal rights & freedom]

1. Does the West require defense?

2. How does one define common ancestry? By ethnic background or location?

3. Alien Migration en masse, is it really the culprit for the decline of Western society?

4. What evidence supports a decline of the West?

5. Is the U.S. on the same path as Europe in terms of the affects of mass chain immigration?

6. If there's no real way to seal borders from aliens, given that law makers seem bent on an open border policy; what is the solution?

7. Is it xenophobic to want to keep your environment free of foreign invaders?

8. Is the rhetoric convincing?
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#115350 - 12/12/17 12:01 PM Re: Civic Nationalism is NOT enough [Re: SIN3]
Creatura Noptii Offline
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1: Yes. This is why people are fighting.

2. People will define it by whatever terms they value.

3. No. Stupidity and greed, rooted in fear of loss.

4. Depends where you look. Look at people, their health and mental well being. No one is learning any sort of personal refinement, only fear, to put it on a basic level. If people aren't dying of heart disease they are dying of drug poison. Look at the corporate sector, the ones who control the resources. Look at how much they care about people.

5. No. We have too many guns, and there are already many tribes here. If anything, our resources will be shipped over seas to them. They won't need to come here.

6. Law makers are in corporate pockets.

7. Yes. It is. It is also rational to defend your resources. It is what all animals do.

8. The bitch needs to close her mouth and open her brain.

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#115354 - 12/12/17 02:33 PM Re: Civic Nationalism is NOT enough [Re: Creatura Noptii]
CanisMachina42 Offline
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1. Does the West require defense?

A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it." That applies to all domestic civil defense everywhere.

2. How does one define common ancestry? By ethnic background or location?

White, Yellow and Brown go by country, black go by Africa. There is also a tendency to categorize people aesthetically. Like the common mistake of confusing an Italian for a Jew.

3. Alien Migration en masse, is it really the culprit for the decline of Western society?

America: Micks, Wops, Poles, Spics, and Sandniggers. The last group to emmigrate rule.

4. What evidence supports a decline of the West?

It certainly isnt GDP. Transition periods always come with an Armageddon of values shifting.

5. Is the U.S. on the same path as Europe in terms of the affects of mass chain immigration?

No. There only two borders and one of them is Canada. And save a bunch of flight school dropouts, it seems all American threat is homegrown or can be stopped at Customs.

6. If there's no real way to seal borders from aliens, given that law makers seem bent on an open border policy; what is the solution?

Implant everyone in the world with a trackable heritage ID chip and catalog their movements with GPS. Through automatic computer monitoring have it send an alert when they cross an imaginary line they are not suppose to.

7. Is it xenophobic to want to keep your environment free of foreign invaders?

No. It's natural likeness recognition. This for the same reason i can differentiate white people, but all blacks and asians look the same.
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#115356 - 12/12/17 04:45 PM Re: Civic Nationalism is NOT enough [Re: SIN3]
Czereda Offline
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I didn't know that such a thing as liberal nationalism exists. People seem to be fond of oxymorons.

1. Does the West require defense?

Every country that is threatened with a foreign invasion, economic crisis, social unrest etc requires defense. What the fuck does the "West" mean? It's an example of totally abstract thinking.

2. How does one define common ancestry? By ethnic background or location?

By blood.

3. Alien Migration en masse, is it really the culprit for the decline of Western society?

I don't see any signs of the decline. Sure, the Western societies (the emphasis on the plural) have their problems but they are in a much better condition than other parts of the world.

4. What evidence supports a decline of the West?

As I wrote, I don't see any decline as compared to the past. Sure, there are some threats. The mass migration is a threat but not as big as Kim Jong-un's nukes.

5. Is the U.S. on the same path as Europe in terms of the affects of mass chain immigration?

I don't know much about the US immigration policy. I know more about the EU. It's difficult for me to say whether you are heading in the same direction. One thing is certain. The reality doesn't look exactly like described by the journalists hungry for sensational news. Many Poles live in Western Europe. They are immigrants too. Sure, the presence of Arabs might suck at times but the situation hardly resembles an approaching Armageddon.

6. If there's no real way to seal borders from aliens, given that law makers seem bent on an open border policy; what is the solution?

Vote for other law makers. I wouldn't underestimate the elections. I don't really want to pontificate about the US but the Hungarian government, for example, was pretty successful in stopping the influx of Muslim immigrants. Here, in my country, when the government changed, it put a stop to the relocation of pseudo-refugees.

7. Is it xenophobic to want to keep your environment free of foreign invaders?

It depends. If someone abhors the uncontrolled swarms of parasites arriving with the sole purpose of draining the local welfare system, then that person's fears and anger are well justified. If someone prattles on about the superiority of the white race and building the state for the white people only as a cure for all the problems of the world, then that is the prime example of wishful thinking.

The mass migration is a problem but many people treat it like a scapegoat for everything that went wrong. It also can't be stopped altogether but it can and should be controlled and limited. We live in a globalized world whether we like it or not. Countries and nations, for sure, are selfish, and talking about unity and common values sounds naive, but the economies are interconnected. We can see it on the example of any economic crisis.

8. Is the rhetoric convincing?

Honestly? I think she should reserve her mouth for blow jobs.

When I heard her blaming the fall of the Roman Empire on multi-culturalism, I wondered whether she'd ever been to school. The rest of her presentation sounds like those creepy stories some moms tell to scare their kids.
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#115357 - 12/13/17 10:44 AM Re: Civic Nationalism is NOT enough [Re: Czereda]
SIN3 Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Czereda
What the fuck does the "West" mean? It's an example of totally abstract thinking.


There is plenty of cultural analysis to be found, if you're genuinely interested. I'd say the biggest difference that stands out between East and West, is how independence is regarded.

In the East, independence is abhorrent. You may need to get through at least 2 generations of family members. Then society at large, if you wish to stand alone, go alone.

In the West, independence is desired. This is why age 18 is a reprieve for parents. Legal adulthood means you can be pushed out of the family home without consequence.
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#115359 - 12/13/17 01:35 PM Re: Civic Nationalism is NOT enough [Re: SIN3]
fiendish Offline
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Not exactly. Independence is always given under conditions, which only means conditions may be different, but all situations are substantially the same. That independence in the West is desired could be quite laughable, if only it wasn't that serious. Independence is more desired in the East, if you want my opinion. Independence is desired more where there's oppression. If you can acquire what is substantial for your survival and still have a say, that's the closest thing to independence.
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#115360 - 12/13/17 02:27 PM Re: Civic Nationalism is NOT enough [Re: SIN3]
Czereda Offline
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I think your reply is a gross generalization. My point, however, was that every country has its own quite selfish interests. We are thinking in terms of nations and states rather than races. It's plainly obvious in the case of the European Union. In spite of all the grandiose declarations about common values, the divisions and conflicts are visible.

Treating the West or the whole white race as some sort of unity is a sign of naivety. It's also a sign that one doesn't really know what nationalism is. Actually, it has shit to do with the race. Which nationalist would be willing to shed his blood for other nations and peoples, just because they happen to be white or because they belong to the West? The focus in on one's own nation/tribe, to which of course only the natives belong. But other white peoples aren't that relevant.
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#115373 - 12/15/17 09:45 AM Re: Civic Nationalism is NOT enough [Re: fiendish]
SIN3 Offline
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 Originally Posted By: fiendish
Not exactly. Independence is always given under conditions, which only means conditions may be different, but all situations are substantially the same.


Sort of. Given the idea of the Nuclear Family, until it no longer makes sense financially. Whereas in the East, you could literally be stuck with an entire family living with you until they die. There's no real incentive for them to leave, and there are real consequences if you kick them out. And I'm just speaking on the basic primal start here. It can either be prolonged, or severed. I think that's not as trivial as dismissed, nor as generalized as believed.
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#115381 - 12/16/17 03:40 PM Re: Civic Nationalism is NOT enough [Re: SIN3]
fiendish Offline
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Independence could be such a burden, it's rather a choice than generalized consequences. The incentive is suppressed yet not eliminated. As a matter of fact, we are always beguiled about what is the truth.
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#115389 - 12/18/17 10:06 AM Re: Civic Nationalism is NOT enough [Re: fiendish]
SIN3 Offline
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Do you have choices when you're a native Middle Easterner? Sure, but they are limited. You can choose to buck tradition, and many certainly have. Some of them died in that process.
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#115399 - 12/19/17 02:21 PM Re: Civic Nationalism is NOT enough [Re: SIN3]
fiendish Offline
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What you don't understand is that each time there are certain choices. You choose, then there's other choices. I mean, look around you . What do you see? Choices. In other words, each situation needs different actions.
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#115406 - 12/21/17 12:09 PM Re: Civic Nationalism is NOT enough [Re: fiendish]
SIN3 Offline
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When choosing from choices already made for you, are they really choices? Don't tell me what I understand.
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#115407 - 12/22/17 11:47 AM Re: Civic Nationalism is NOT enough [Re: SIN3]
fiendish Offline
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You mean, someone else decides for you? Well, this is oppression, there's only one choice, rebellion. So you see what I mean is there's always a choice, though not always the choices you'd like to have. In a way that explains general tension for rebellion in oppressed territories. It's almost that simple to find out why some people become prey to bizarre ideas, when they're really at a dead end. It's not wrong to say they don't embrace those ideas, they just do what they're only left to do. The point is, what some would call fundamentalism is for someone else everyday life.
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#115410 - 12/22/17 03:12 PM Re: Civic Nationalism is NOT enough [Re: fiendish]
Czereda Offline
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If the rebellion is your only option, you actually don't have a choice.

I can think of another option; accepting the environment you live in as something normal and natural. The oppressive regimes usually cut off their citizens from the outside sources of information. Additionally, you are born into that culture and soaked with it. In order to defy it, you need to change your perspective. You need other points of reference. If you don't have them or simply treat them as the Other, then how can you know that you can live a different life?

There is a reason why you have no democracy in Muslim countries. Is this because the regimes are so strong and people so apathetic? Or is this rather the matter of culture?
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#115411 - 12/22/17 03:49 PM Re: Civic Nationalism is NOT enough [Re: Czereda]
fiendish Offline
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Well, really? Accept an oppressive undemocratic environment as something normal and natural? You know what mostly makes people apathetic, oppression. Really, are you trying to say that oppressed people don't change their perspective because of the Others? On the other hand (as I have said) the only way to change an oppressive regime is rebellion.
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#115412 - 12/22/17 05:18 PM Re: Civic Nationalism is NOT enough [Re: fiendish]
Czereda Offline
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What I'm saying is that it is unnatural and oppressive mostly from the point of view of the Westerners. The natives have a different view of things.
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#115413 - 12/22/17 06:03 PM Re: Civic Nationalism is NOT enough [Re: Czereda]
fiendish Offline
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Well, I'm not sure I'm a westerner or a native as well. Do you really have a different view of oppression? Yes, there's sure a complexity about how each and every one anticipates oppression, yet in the end it's just oppression. It doesn't really have t do with geographical or demographic terms. What I'm saying is that it's not at all unnatural.
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#115416 - 12/22/17 07:23 PM Re: Civic Nationalism is NOT enough [Re: fiendish]
Czereda Offline
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One example could be the failed coup d'etat in Turkey. One could say the people who supported Erdogan acted irrationally or were brainwashed. But was that really the case? Perhaps, they understand freedom differently? Perhaps, the oppression is... outside influences, in their view. Mind, they weren't apathetic but actively supporting the regime. I often think democracy is incompatible with Islam.
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#115417 - 12/22/17 08:31 PM Re: Civic Nationalism is NOT enough [Re: Czereda]
fiendish Offline
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Rather than a coup d'état , it more seemed like a masquerade. Top notch military wouldn't bother for such a nuisance. How often do coups fail due to majority issues? In fact coups are used to overcome such issues. It just doesn't seem right.
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#115433 - 12/24/17 04:29 PM Re: Civic Nationalism is NOT enough [Re: SIN3]
Ubermensch23 Offline
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The problem is that most nationalists are democratic, democracy is shit. You're putting your hands in a bunch of sheep, decision of one administrations are questioned by the next, then the actions taken eventually undone. You're basically going in circles.

The world would be much better if people just accepted that there is class and people will never be equal.
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#115434 - 12/24/17 04:34 PM Re: Civic Nationalism is NOT enough [Re: Czereda]
Ubermensch23 Offline
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Are you implying you're free? Please elaborate? Because both you and I (unfortunately) are slaves living according to the whims of others. A system created by others dictates our actions since a young age. Why do you go to school? So that you may contribute to society. Seems like a modernized slave to me. Sure there are some people who go to pursue education or produce labour for their own sake, but that does not include most people.

I have a job, therefore I am a slave. Maybe someday I'll be rich enough to buy a patch of land somewhere that I can make sustainable so that I do not have to work to survive. Only then will I be physically free from the system.
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#115445 - 12/25/17 04:41 PM Re: Civic Nationalism is NOT enough [Re: Ubermensch23]
Czereda Offline
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This is why I wrote that you need other points of reference. There is no such a thing as absolute freedom but if you compare democratic countries to authoritarian ones, then you will see there is more freedom here.

Not sure which side of the moon you're living on but down here on Earth, even if you work on your own land, you're still part of the society, part of the system.
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#115446 - 12/26/17 01:33 AM Re: Civic Nationalism is NOT enough [Re: SIN3]
Dimitri Offline
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1) In a way, the West needs to defend itself.
Not so much against other nations but it moreover needs an enema to purge itself from toxic ideas. A refocus on what is important and what isn't. The West has given birth to a generation of pussies.

2) Ethnic background.

3) I dare say that immigration gives rise to a decline in society. Sure, there are people who migrate from one country to another and hold succesful positions. And sure, there are people who get integrated into society and take over jobs others wouldn't. But here's the thing (and it ties in with 1), those people are empoverishing the nation by forcing to set the bar lower. There's enough Polish work-forces here who "do the job"... but not to the same standard a local professional holds. Lest alone having mastered language or knowledge in the field. Communication is tiresome and seldom transparent. More time and resources wasted than one can imagine just because people wanted to "win a few money".

4) Take a look at the news. Economical problems, a focus on trivialities,... that would be indication enough. The fact media is shining a light on the latest FEMEN-action and much less attention on the current situation in NK or even Poland toying the idea of leaving the EU. Those are some bloody important things. Instead you get main articles on how one of the Kardashians got herself filled-up.

5) Can't say for sure but I suspect the U.S. is still a safe haven. They do not have to deal with Middle-eastern immigration to the same extend Europa has.

6) Not supporting the aliens. Make them leave.

7) No, it is natural. (Il)legal aliens will always serve a threat one way or another. An imposition for acceptance of their traditions and customs that may clash with our own at one point or another. That, and the other factor as explained in 3.

8) Hardly.
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#115457 - 12/26/17 11:13 PM Re: Civic Nationalism is NOT enough [Re: Dimitri]
Creatura Noptii Offline
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Dimitri:

I agree with that to some level, but I think the greater problem is what you address at 1: The West has bred a society of some very weak minded people, with such a thing comes destructive irrationality. I doubt anyone did a good think-through on the European front concerning the refugees. Ego over logic, in that case.

Point being, the problem is more likely a native one. The foreign aspect is just icing on the cake at this point.

The U.S. has foundation, specifically in our right to arms. Conservative conviction only goes as far as limited. Past that you're talking new terrain, progression. You either have a foundation of stone or putty.

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#115464 - 12/27/17 04:30 PM Re: Civic Nationalism is NOT enough [Re: Ubermensch23]
fiendish Offline
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So, some are sheep and some others aren't. It reminds me of the Animal Farm , where the pigs were more equal than the other animals. There is No Class, and if you don't believe me, believe some other people that said this before me.
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