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#115460 - 12/27/17 12:12 AM Re: The Pitfalls of Multiculturalism [Re: Dimitri]
Creatura Noptii Offline
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*

Ghettos are often territorial, as is the world. My points are that multiculturalism isn't what people think it is. Its not a merging of cultures, so much as what SIN pointed out, getting several cultures to accept a common rule, which is in fact spreading well beyond western civ. Ghettos are defensive, but even they change.


Edited by Creatura Noptii (12/27/17 12:29 AM)
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#115462 - 12/27/17 09:42 AM Re: The Pitfalls of Multiculturalism [Re: Creatura Noptii]
SIN3 Offline
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Actually they do. A lot of what used to be 'traditional' is no longer. Just because we have a few talking points in contest, doesn't mean our own American culture hasn't shifted away from what used to be.

I didn't say it happened over night. It happens over a course of mitigated ideas and propaganda.

Take for instance the argument that the Nation wasn't founded as a Christian Nation. As if Atheists were at the helm? RETCON history is then accepted as the 'real history'; so please.
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#115463 - 12/27/17 02:21 PM Re: The Pitfalls of Multiculturalism [Re: SIN3]
Creatura Noptii Offline
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Tomato/tomatoe. They do and they don't. What I mean by 'just willingly accept' is that you can't just tell people to change, as you say, it takes a period of manipulating ideas and resources.
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#115467 - 12/27/17 05:40 PM Re: The Pitfalls of Multiculturalism [Re: SIN3]
fiendish Offline
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If I'm getting it right, you imply who's in the helm dictates who's in the opposition? So then , what would be if Atheists were really at the helm? An alternative History, or the agenda of some who would gain from this?
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#115474 - 12/28/17 11:20 AM Re: The Pitfalls of Multiculturalism [Re: fiendish]
SIN3 Offline
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No, you haven't understood me correctly. Influence comes from many places, it doesn't require a single actor guiding the ship.

Take a look at Ancient History for example. Do you really think the spread of Christendom was from a sole source? Even the people willing to listen, to hear it out, were looking for something right?

Same is true today. American politics is like that too. The animus of the American identity is a collection of attributes that change with each generation.
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#115493 - 12/31/17 10:55 AM Re: The Pitfalls of Multiculturalism [Re: SIN3]
fiendish Offline
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They were looking for something right. Or, they were looking for something, right? Let's take Christendom for example. Did it spread from a single source? Or was it rather a gathering of the general consensus? And how far is this from politics, I wonder.
What really changes is not the attributes, but the general consensus. Leading this, one can only come to the conclusion new generations make the difference.
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#115501 - 01/01/18 11:28 AM Re: The Pitfalls of Multiculturalism [Re: fiendish]
Zeno Offline
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Multiculturalism on a scientific level.

Diversity.
Nature loves diversity, it means a system can change, move and evolve through the conflict of opposing ideas. If family members of the same genetic type mate, it produces sick, weak and disabled offspring, which is why it is desirable of having two genetically diverse parents producing young. The same principle applies to a nation state, an ecosystem, or 600club, it is healthy to have a diverse range of ideas, religions and cultures to keep the system fresh, evolving and healthy. History and experience shows that when one set of ideas dominate, and eliminate all other ideas, then a system eventually becomes sick and collapses.

Sustainability.
A system is healthy when the energy coming into the system is in harmony with what is going out. A hospital has only a finite amount of resources, and if the demand on those resources is greater than it can sustain, then a hospital like any other system will collapse. The central anxiety of those against outsiders such as immigrants is that systems such as housing, hospitals, welfare, jobs and education are breaking down because of the pressure increasing numbers of people are placing on those systems in an unsustainable situation. Most of the hostility to those of other ideas or cultures would vanish if the systems were made sustainable.
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#115506 - 01/04/18 11:44 AM Re: The Pitfalls of Multiculturalism [Re: Zeno]
Creatura Noptii Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Zeno
Most of the hostility to those of other ideas or cultures would vanish if the systems were made sustainable.


Theoretically, on paper it all sounds good, but the human animal is dedicated to its adapted routine, especially those ingrained from early age. To re-adapt is very hard, and this can often lead to conflict on levels of what a more intelligent being would consider over extreme nuance, and often is.

One must look at how people make associations, how emotions are processed through those ideas. The human mind is hard wired to merge identity with survival.

Conflict is inevitable. Humans will fight over control of resource. Look at modern India. The government has tried time and again to punish and eliminate the negative results of traditional beliefs and practises, the caste system for example. Nothing works. Not legislation, not policing or increased fine or punishment. If people believe in a way of living, the only outcome of a forced change is total conflict. Who controls resource the best during this kind of change has a great advantage.

*I've offered two perspectives in this thread. Two sides to a coin, so to speak. One can adopt cultural norms to say, blend in, or get along, so as they are willing to do so. Most are not.


Edited by Creatura Noptii (01/04/18 11:49 AM)
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#115514 - 01/07/18 09:18 AM Re: The Pitfalls of Multiculturalism [Re: Zeno]
fiendish Offline
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Ok, that is so difficult to explain. Nature loves what there is, and there is diversity. The target is there's no opposing ideas, or different genetic pools. You still accept what happens as a rule or a physical order. What if they were all just wrong, you accept as right what most frequently happens, but what if you don't see everything that happens? To determine what really happens needs you to have a complete knowledge about everything, which is something I doubt. I think you've mistaken what is the means with what is the aim.
Anyway, harmony is vague. Sustainability is rather a dynamic relationship , which does not really have to do with numbers. In fact, diversity is most common as the numbers grow. And sustainability also grows by the numbers, since there's a wider gene pool.
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#115518 - 01/08/18 10:14 AM Re: The Pitfalls of Multiculturalism [Re: fiendish]
SIN3 Offline
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Sociology vs. Biology.

On a sociological level, sure things can change. It doesn't mean they are better than they were before by default.

Social trends ebb and flow, human culture relies a lot on acceptance and consensus. Opposing forces can be the 'better' of it. Multi-cultural expressions aren't always the better view, or equate to a better quality of life.

Just look at Sweden while its burning.
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#115523 - 01/10/18 12:37 PM Re: The Pitfalls of Multiculturalism [Re: SIN3]
Djehuti Offline
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I will tend to agree here with Social Darwinism. At the end social change does not matter. Whatever stands at the end is and was superior from the beginning. Maybe that mixture of cultures will help totally new cultures to emerge as the final winners on the struggle to survival or then they will succumb.

Edited by Djehuti (01/10/18 12:40 PM)
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#115524 - 01/10/18 12:40 PM Re: The Pitfalls of Multiculturalism [Re: Djehuti]
Djehuti Offline
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We might be on the verge of the formation of new cultures, new traditions and races, very far superior of what we have known until now. Or maybe this crisis is a reminder of standing for western values in order to preserve the same western culture.
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#115528 - 01/11/18 11:56 AM Re: The Pitfalls of Multiculturalism [Re: Djehuti]
SIN3 Offline
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 Quote:
very far superior of what we have known until now


It could also be inferior and a fast decline of the species. Social Darwinism includes people that need safe spaces from information, mental health due to their distress, and weaknesses that keep them home instead of in the world doing.
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#115557 - 01/18/18 05:06 AM Re: The Pitfalls of Multiculturalism [Re: Zeno]
Asmedious Moderator Offline
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 Quote:
Diversity.
Nature loves diversity, it means a system can change, move and evolve through the conflict of opposing ideas. If family members of the same genetic type mate, it produces sick, weak and disabled offspring, which is why it is desirable of having two genetically diverse parents producing young. The same principle applies to a nation state, an ecosystem, or 600club, it is healthy to have a diverse range of ideas, religions and cultures to keep the system fresh, evolving and healthy. History and experience shows that when one set of ideas dominate, and eliminate all other ideas, then a system eventually becomes sick and collapses.


Problem is that it's not diversity that is spreading, but the ass kissing, to the point of worship of an ancient, intolerant, and oppressive system (Islam), which once it gains enough power, wants to burn down any other culture and belief system in its path.
The way things are going, we are not looking to make the current Western culture better through diversity, but attempting to completely destroy it, and go back a few hundred years in mentality, tradition, and have true intolerance.


 Quote:
The central anxiety of those against outsiders such as immigrants is that systems such as housing, hospitals, welfare, jobs and education are breaking down because of the pressure increasing numbers of people are placing on those systems in an unsustainable situation. Most of the hostility to those of other ideas or cultures would vanish if the systems were made sustainable.


This is partly true, however even if the system was made sustainable, I'd still hate the idea of Islam taking over (even if just out populating) what I consider to be my culture, which is of European background. Living in America, I also would be against European cultures trying to dominate what I consider to be American culture, even though the two in my opinion are quite compatible. As an immigrant myself, I love Americana, and what I see as the American way of life. It's the whole point of moving here.

All these other "cultures," that come here and try to claim how much better theirs is then the culture already established here, can go fuck themselves. By the very fact that they feel the need to move away from their place of origin (I waned to write shit hole country, cause I enjoy people getting pissed off at that) proves that they prefer not to stay in a place where their culture dominates.

I'm not against diversity. Quite the opposite, I love it. But only as long as everyone stays in their own shit hole. You stay in your shit hole, I will stay in mine, and we can visit if we want some diversity in our lives. Or if I really enjoy your culture more then mine, I will move there, and embrace yours without trying to change it. Or visa versa, you come here, and enjoy mine without trying to fuck it up.

I would enjoy visiting a traditionally Muslim country as a tourist, and respect their culture when I'm there, and even take part in it as best as I can in order to get a true experience for it.

If I want to enjoy my own European culture, I would want to visit Europe to experience it....and each country there with their very own culture, the way it was before this whole melting it with shit hole cultures from around the world took over.

Some will say that I'm a hypocrite to claim that I love American culture, but do not appreciate every culture in it, because it's one big melting pot of all cultures.
I don't see it that way. Although it used to be that most cultures in the US would get along, or at least agree to disagree, the different cultures were still allowed to exist individually. The Italians had their traditions, the Irish had theirs, black theirs, and generally if one wanted to experience one or the other of a different culture from their own they were welcome to. Nothing wrong with that.

However, what I see taking place now, is an attempt to intimidate people to embrace one universal culture that they use the term "diversity" for. Yet it's not diversity at all, but an attempt to force everyone into one world culture where anyone who enjoys their own heritage and traditions and does not want to embrace another, is viewed as the enemy of the world, when in fact relatively speaking, it's a small group of old hippies in power who hate the Western world and are attempting to turn it into some Utopian shit hole of forced cultural-ism, which they call multiculturalism, even though this will never happen. One culture eventually will eat up all the rest, and unfortunately it probably wont be the most cognitive and fit culture that wins out, but the one that fucks and reproduces the most.
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#115574 - 01/21/18 03:05 PM Re: The Pitfalls of Multiculturalism [Re: SIN3]
fiendish Offline
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Well, in fact sociology is an extension of biology. I do not see any opposing forces, except in both. A better quality of life is always the target, though at what price.
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