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#28158 - 08/08/09 10:22 PM Re: Ouija Boards [Re: Ankhhape]
ceruleansteel Offline
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Registered: 10/15/07
Posts: 784
Loc: Behind you
I know I'm going to take a dose of shit for this, but I do feel the need to set the record a bit straighter here:

The astrology you read in the newspaper is not "Astrology". The basic idea of astrology is that - like the planets affect the tide and weather and whatnot - that they also affect "living, breathing organisms". Every cop will tell you that full moons make for crazy nights and every L&D packs more beds into the nursery during the days surrounding full moons. These are two proven - even if not understood - instances of "planets affecting humans".

Astrologists don't say that 1/12 of the population is going to have the same day each day. They say that - according to the location of the various gravities involved in the earth's alignment with other planets - that like the tide, humans are affected. This occurs at birth because prior to birth, as Jake suggested, they are a part of the mother and subject to her just as the difference between a deep sea creature and a creature closer to the shore is subject to the different environments (say, tide vs. the pressure of the ocean). They suggest that a person who shares a certain sign with another person will have similar basic personality traits to the other people who share that sign (they do not say that these people will be exactly alike, and of course have their own formulas for showing how that happens and what those differences are likely to be). The only thing this has to do with what type of day that person will be having is that it is likely that two people who have similar personalities will make similar decisions.

Real Astrologers aren't fortune tellers, they are more like psychologists. If you want to read some impressive Astrology material, I suggest Linda Goodman. It's my dirty little secret to own several of her books. Instead of being vague, they are boldy specific. She also covers the question about the three outermost planets and (I think her books were written about thirty years ago) covers instances in which the same planet "rules" two different signs.

I'm not saying that this is fact. I'm just relating what the basis of it all is.

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#28172 - 08/09/09 01:40 AM Re: Ouija Boards [Re: ceruleansteel]
Ankhhape Offline
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Registered: 07/28/09
Posts: 99
"Astrology is not a valid form of magical divination because it assumes causal relationship between events which are linked only very weakly if at all. As the relationship is very weak, astrology owes whatever success it has to the natural prescience of its practitioners and obscures its failures with imprecision, evasiveness and ambiguity." - Peter Carroll 'Liber LUX'
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#28176 - 08/09/09 02:18 AM Re: Ouija Boards [Re: Ankhhape]
god.over.djinn Offline
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Registered: 06/23/09
Posts: 75
Loc: Melbourne
Hi Ankhhape,

When it comes to debunking astrology, there are probably better sources one could quote than Peter Carroll. He endorsed and continues to endorse all manner of pseudo-scientific claptrap that clouded and continues to cloud the minds of many Chaoists.

 Originally Posted By: Peter Carroll
"I usually advocate astrology persuasively to ordinary people but ridicule it to my magician friends."



G.O.D.
_________________________
SATAN, a recursive acronym invented by GOD: "SATAN: Advocating The Adversarial Nihilist"

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#28179 - 08/09/09 03:29 AM Re: Ouija Boards [Re: god.over.djinn]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
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Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
Police or hospitals having seemingly busier nights when there is a full moon is most likely a confirmation bias. These people will often tend to forget times when there was a full moon and things were less hectic than normal. They will often forget times where no full moon was present but things were busier than normal.

When Astrology was first created the constellations were in different positions than they are now. Hororscoopes are intentionally designed to be vauge and have the ability for broad interpretation. These too are an example of confirmation bias. People will tend to remember the few times their readings are accurate while forgetting all the other times they were inaccurate.
_________________________
No gods. No masters.

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#28182 - 08/09/09 03:59 AM Re: Ouija Boards [Re: ceruleansteel]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Personally I do think astrology is bullshit.

I don't see how a planet can have an effect on anyone.
If it is the magnetic field that affects, know that a lot of our household tools have a stronger magnetic effect than those planets. If it is gravity, the moon should dominate all people simply because it is closest and overrules all other.

Even the so called lunar effect has never been proven at all. Studies done have shown there is no special effect at all.

 Quote:
The full moon has been linked to crime, suicide, mental illness, disasters, accidents, birthrates, fertility, and werewolves, among other things. Some people even buy and sell stocks according to phases of the moon, a method probably as successful as many others. Numerous studies have tried to find lunar effects. So far, the studies have failed to establish much of interest. Lunar effects that have been found have little or nothing to do with human behavior, e.g., the discovery of a slight effect of the moon on global temperature,* which in turn might have an effect on the growth of plants. Of course, there have been single studies here and there that have found correlations between various phases of the moon and this or that phenomenon, but nothing significant has been replicated sufficiently to warrant claiming a probable causal relationship.

Ivan Kelly, James Rotton and Roger Culver (1996) examined over 100 studies on lunar effects and concluded that the studies have failed to show a reliable and significant correlation (i.e., one not likely due to chance) between the full moon, or any other phase of the moon, and each of the following:

-the homicide rate
-traffic accidents
-crisis calls to police or fire stations
-domestic violence
-births of babies
-suicide
-major disasters
-casino payout rates
-assassinations
-kidnappings
-aggression by professional hockey players
-violence in prisons
-psychiatric admissions [one study found admissions were lowest during a full moon]
-agitated behavior by nursing home residents
-assaults
-gunshot wounds
-stabbings
-emergency room admissions
-behavioral outbursts of psychologically challenged rural adults
-lycanthropy
-vampirism
-alcoholism
-sleep walking
-epilepsy

If so many studies have failed to prove a significant correlation between the full moon and anything, why do so many people believe in these lunar myths? Kelly, Rotton, and Culver suspect four factors: media effects, folklore and tradition, misconceptions, and cognitive biases. A fifth factor should be considered, as well: communal reinforcement.


Skepdic

D.

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#28185 - 08/09/09 04:35 AM Re: Ouija Boards [Re: Diavolo]
ceruleansteel Offline
active member


Registered: 10/15/07
Posts: 784
Loc: Behind you
Quick reply to all:

I stated plainly that I was not purporting this to be fact, just clearing the air, so to say, and expressing what the top of the astrological food chain has to say...

Bobbikins:

I have given birth both in and out of a full moon and as you will recall, I had more than even the average criminal justice student's share of police ride-alongs. I have SEEN the full moon phenomena in action. Again, not saying that there is anything more than coincidence involved because I have no idea how to create an objective study to review it all, but just that it is not my experience that the phenome is bullshit. It may just be that people are so superstitious that they create the more intensified conditions themselves, but I have yet to think of a way to actually measure it all...

Astrology, however, is totally up in the air. I'm sure there is a way to make an objective study of it, but I've never been of the opinion that it was *that* important. I've made half-hearted comparisons of birthdays vs. criminal activity and things like that (that I have easy access to records to compare) but they have come to nothing and - personally - I have WAY more interesting things to geek out over.

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#28187 - 08/09/09 06:12 AM Re: Ouija Boards [Re: ceruleansteel]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
I'm convinced I'm a sex god and I sure saw the phenomena in action too. I'm willing to create an objective study about it, so any hot females out there that want to participate, for the benefit of science of course, PM for an appointment. ;\)

I know what you wrote, I was just giving my opinion on astrology and lunar effects in general.

I do see astrology as an exploitation of insecurity. Even if one does their own reading. In that it does not differ too much from other forms of reading. Somewhere somewhen someone realized that by telling others what to do and put the source of this knowledge in the gods, stars, flight of birds or animal innards, one could benefit, either by status, cash or other favors. And as such, it kept on rolling. When doing so one can't be too specific of course, the more specific one becomes, the easier one fails and thus loses the benefits. I still have to see the first one to state; "Friday morning you'll receive a letter from the tax office which will force you to pay 1500$". It's always vague and as such highly interpretable by the victim.

I just hopped to the first site that does one of those 2cent predictions. This is mine for today.

 Quote:
As the stars shift and change positions, you're one of the first people chosen for the team. All day long it seems that you're somehow on the right side of the line that separates insiders from outsiders. Don't be afraid to ask for something that you didn't think was possible yesterday -- it's still possible to get in on the ground floor of a new venture if you know how to work it. Later in the day someone shares a recent experience with those who'll benefit from the tale.


Even when those 2cent predictions are bullshit and likely generated by a computer, they do not differ from the yearly predictions the real astrologoons do. Even the birth calculations are so vague or general and, even if 20 parts of it are wrong, we tend to focus on that one that is right.

This is an interesting video from Derren Brown showing how funky it is for those being read.

Derren Brown Astrology

D.

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#28189 - 08/09/09 06:31 AM Re: Ouija Boards [Re: Diavolo]
ceruleansteel Offline
active member


Registered: 10/15/07
Posts: 784
Loc: Behind you
Like I said, I'm neither proving nor disproving, only informing.

And - granted, I'm drunk right now so may be mistaken but - I feel like I'm being baited somehow. I seem to recall saying that the basis was not to predict the future but to give understanding to basic personalities, according to those at the top of the astrology food chain...

Either way, I have said what I felt needed saying and believe it or not, this particular thread is not worth fighting for to me, as I have no opinion on it one way or the other. My only intention in posting was to inform one party who had questions. I informed; I move on. I'm not butthurt one way or the other regarding what the overall consensus is.

I also seem to recall saying, "I know I'm going to catch hell for this" or something similar...perhaps I'm psychic after all? HAHAHA!

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#28190 - 08/09/09 06:50 AM Re: Ouija Boards [Re: ceruleansteel]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
I might have given the wrong impression but I am not baiting at all. I just gave my views and hijack your replies to do so. So don't consider anything I say as either baiting or attacking. This is 101 so overall I'm as tolerant as possible to anyone here.

Personally I don't believe that much in exploring the self due to random systems. The same goes for meditation if it comes to that. I do think the exploration and insight in oneself comes through confrontation, physically and mentally. I read somewhere in the past that the brain is in a state called "self-organized criticality" which implies it works very orderly but occasionally shifts into chaos. Like a sand avalanche it slowly builds up and then at one point collapses. New ideas or those strange thoughts that pop up are assumed to be caused by those neural avalanches. So a small part of me considers the option that special conditions might build up faster until those neural avalanches and as such, might -and this is a highly funky personal view- give some value to things like rituals. So those, which are a confrontation at mental or even physical levels, might indeed bring insights. Still, this mere idea feels pretty funky, even to myself. But it's one of those brainfarts that I might explore of cast away in time.

D.

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#28206 - 08/09/09 10:13 AM Re: Ouija Boards [Re: god.over.djinn]
Ankhhape Offline
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Registered: 07/28/09
Posts: 99
Hello god.over.djinn,

Would you recommend reading Carroll though or are there better authors I could look into on the Chaos concept?

Thank you,
Ankhhape

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#28219 - 08/09/09 07:19 PM Re: Ouija Boards [Re: Ankhhape]
Morgan Offline
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Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
You could also look into the following authors:
phil hine, philip farber, and stephen mace are good authors too.

Most stuff by christopher hyatt and don webb is good too.

Look over the other reading lists for more information.

enjoy,
Morgan
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#28220 - 08/09/09 08:01 PM Re: Ouija Boards [Re: Morgan]
Ankhhape Offline
Banned
pledge


Registered: 07/28/09
Posts: 99
Not to do a one liner here but, those book lists on this forum are vast . . . man, I wouldn't know where to start!

Thanks for the suggestions, I will look into them.

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#28243 - 08/10/09 06:37 AM Re: Ouija Boards [Re: Ankhhape]
god.over.djinn Offline
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Registered: 06/23/09
Posts: 75
Loc: Melbourne
 Originally Posted By: Ankhhape
Hello god.over.djinn,

Would you recommend reading Carroll though or are there better authors I could look into on the Chaos concept?

Thank you,
Ankhhape



Hi Ankhhape,

Well, there is recommend, and there is recommend. What I recommend is reading as much about everything as you can. This doesn't exclude Carroll - just take everything he says with a grain of salt.

It is worth noting that Carroll doesn't mention chaos magic in Liber Null. That appears to be a later development, as part of his whole pseudoscience schtick. I think that the early work contained in Liber Null is better. Very concise and full of practical ideas to experiment with; no extraneous "let's throw our critical thinking out the window and be mad scientists" bullshit. (Not more so than contemporaries such as LaVey, anyway.)

You asked specifically about "the Chaos concept". I personally don't recommend chaos magic; but if you would like to know about chaos theory, you could read James Gleik's popular book called "Chaos".


G.O.D.
_________________________
SATAN, a recursive acronym invented by GOD: "SATAN: Advocating The Adversarial Nihilist"

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#107215 - 06/20/16 10:23 AM Re: Ouija Boards [Re: god.over.djinn]
ShadowLover Offline
member


Registered: 05/26/16
Posts: 251
Loc: Gold Coast, Australia
I've been doing the markets of late and one of the items I have on my table are a couple of Ouija Boards.

I find people's reactions to them fun! Some try to warn me... Some get nostalgic and remember a time when they played with one. Many have stories or have at least heard stories and one older lady advised her daughter not to associate with people like me. I haven't sold one yet but I like having them on the table because they generate interest... Many people become curious to see what else I have.

I personally haven't had a lot of experience with them, and certainly nothing dramatic.

As for Tarot Cards, I believe they are a tool used to tap into our own sub-conscience. And I love the ancient teachings in them... One of the meaning in the Devil card is about our perception - the people in the card have yokes around their necks and feel enslaved by the Devil but they fail to realise that the yokes are large and could easily be lifted off over their heads. This is about addiction and other self-imposed limitations. Of course each card contains many life lessons.

As for astrology, I have never had a lot to do with it other than to read it in magazines for fun! I don't discount that it could have some merit though. I look at the moon and how it controls the oceanic tides... The Earth's surface is 70% water. A human is 70% water... So if the moon can have influence over one body of water, why not another? And if the moon can, than why not other celestial bodies? I have no proof and it is not my thing to be interested enough try to prove but I don't completely discount the possibility.

I don't buy into the moon affecting a woman's menstrual cycle however... I think the 28 day thing is just coincidence. Simply because we are not the only mammal that is 70% water and lives under the moon, and not all mammals have 28day cycles. Some only ovulate every nine months or once every 2yrs.
_________________________
Curiosity killed the cat, but satisfaction brought it back.

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#107225 - 06/20/16 08:49 PM Re: Ouija Boards [Re: ShadowLover]
antikarmatomic Offline
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Registered: 09/22/13
Posts: 3208
Loc: El Mundo
 Originally Posted By: SL
think the 28 day thing is just coincidence. Simply because we are not the only mammal that is 70% water and lives under the moon, and not all mammals have 28day cycles.
The moonlight makes for ideal night-time forging and harvesting. *shrugs* I don't suppose they'd want to attract nocturnal predators by free-bleeding all over the cabbage patch. 'Just a theory. I wasn't there, and do not own one of those clam-dangled contraptions.
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