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#115881 - 02/28/18 01:51 AM What lies beneath
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
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In what kind of state has the world been reduced to? A machine fueled on propaganda and economics. Every cog and individual turning its wheels and spinning in the greater whole. United through chains and bolts, fuming and raging as if taken from some gothic-steampunk aesthetic.

No single concept remains standing out as they are being viewed in varying colours of grey. Terms such as Fake news are being thrown from the left and right without really pinning it down except as a vacuous concept to mean "not to my liking". Religion undergoes the same treatment as does Satanism. The old trope of "Satanism = Devil" has long been forgotten as ball-less society and communities started to equate feel-good principles to cover their fearful asses. "We represent Satan! The adversity, amorality, the one who stands in opposition" easily followed by "but we condone animal and child abuse, and really we generally are swell guys, just read up our Satanic Rules of the earth".

The rise of movements, for a variety of causes, indicate a cluelessness. How society is on the verge of collapsing onto itself as the group screams and craze become louder. There is no individual to be seen. Only a confused mass driven on emotion and fear. A community and world who can no longer make up its own mind on what is and isn't. Children in need of authority to show them the bad guys and the good guys. There no longer is fear about what ideas one might posses but moreover inbred fear of what the repercussions might be for daring to be slightly deviant in the mannerisms of the global community and ideas.

People have started to fear their own minds.

When facts are laid bare and stripped to the bone will the individual no longer be capable to accept the mistakes. It will try to be condenscing as possible or voluntarily remove and censor itself against the own toxicity.

The recent shootings, as an example, and the fall-out are a token for this. The blame is shifted at the tool (weapon) but never on the community that gave rise, and remained apathetic, to the mind that wielded and pulled the trigger.

It wouldn't be a bad move to start deciding what is black and what is white in ones life instead of seeing and acting on these shades of grey. Perhaps we might see a more healthy revival of Satanism and fully-empowered demons instead of the transgender aliens and single loud-mouthed mothers who simply crave some daddy-loving to set them straight.
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#115882 - 02/28/18 10:09 AM Re: What lies beneath [Re: Dimitri]
Zeno Offline
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Registered: 03/15/15
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The complaints of the OP has always been the case in society, nothing has changed. Society has become less connected to everything, more industrialised and controlled, but on the base level modern society has a different form, but the same essence as it had under the Roman emperors two-thousand years ago.
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#115886 - 02/28/18 03:10 PM Re: What lies beneath [Re: Zeno]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
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The cyclical state of society has not escaped my attention.
But you'll have to pardon me for asking, with slight sarcasm, how the hell you can claim nothing has changed while in the same breath proclaiming:

- society has a different form on base level
- it has become less connected to everything
- more industrialized and controlled

Human nature is unchangeable. I get that.
Ideas can be retained well past their initiative.
However, the "go-about" changes. Hence why I said people fear possible repercussions more than the ideas itself.


Edited by Dimitri (02/28/18 03:10 PM)
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#115890 - 03/01/18 03:17 AM Re: What lies beneath [Re: Dimitri]
Zeno Offline
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Sure, there are changes brought about by technology: stone axe to copper axe to bronze axe to iron axe to chainsaw to robotic lumberjacks. And it is so that disconnection increases with each advance of technology. However, even if it seems religions, leaders, political systems and empires rise and fall over time, in essence the shortcomings of human nature and of civilization is the same as it has always been.

The complaint seems to me to be no different to that of hunter gatherers complaining about farmers who decided it was an easier life to grow food rather than hunt it. Modern civilization came out of farming and requires a level of conformity to work.
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#115895 - 03/02/18 01:38 AM Re: What lies beneath [Re: Zeno]
Dimitri Offline
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Disconnection? Where?
The advancement of technology does not necessarily negate familiarity. What it undermines is willingness to do a job. Axes still aren't out of fashion and can still be bought at your local DIY-shop.

Neither are we talking about the supposed collapse of societies here (although a prefered subject and fantasy to those plugged in media-caroussel).

We're talking about predators being prey by inability to process information and stacking it into convenient boxes. The loss of discernment and character in a society turning grey as it is heading to a burn-out due to all information made available.


Edited by Dimitri (03/02/18 01:38 AM)
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#115896 - 03/02/18 04:10 AM Re: What lies beneath [Re: Dimitri]
Zeno Offline
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Registered: 03/15/15
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 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
Disconnection? Where?


Disconnection from self.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-41125009

Disconnection from community or others.
http://fortune.com/2016/06/22/loneliness-is-a-modern-day-epidemic/

Disconnection from nature.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/earth/e...tudy-finds.html


 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
The advancement of technology does not necessarily negate familiarity. What it undermines is willingness to do a job. Axes still aren't out of fashion and can still be bought at your local DIY-shop.


If people rely on technology to do everything for them, they lack the wisdom from experience to cope without the technology. Example, the pilots of a plane that crashed because they no longer had the expereince to handle a difficult situation due to their total reliance on technology.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/9...g-to-crash.html

Many retail stores including hardware stores are closing because most buy from Amazon via the internet. If the individual has an axe, they mostly rely on others to do their work, thus they lack the experience to know how to use an axe.

 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
Neither are we talking about the supposed collapse of societies here (although a prefered subject and fantasy to those plugged in media-caroussel).


Collectively human society is contributing to its own collapse and destruction with the poisoning of water, land and air. This is not a media fantasy. Iran as a nation will be dead inside 30 years because it is destroying its water and soil:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/weather/features/42746372

Iran for example is riddled to the core with problems at every level from banks to the collapse of its ancient Qanat system.
https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2017/05/iran-qanat-irrigation-engineering-history-video/

The 4 million population Cape Town South Africa is fighting off a potential day zero where it runs out of water. It might escape this year, but future years will result in the collapse of the city because of lack of water.
https://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/police-reveal-day-zero-safety-plans-20180228

 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
We're talking about predators being prey by inability to process information and stacking it into convenient boxes. The loss of discernment and character in a society turning grey as it is heading to a burn-out due to all information made available.


Intelligence, reason, wisdom, creativity, knowledge all are failing because everyone - prey and predator - have lost those skills because of easy living and reliance on a service industry and technology to provide their personal needs. The flood of information is a blessing, it is the lack of skills to process the information is the curse.
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#115898 - 03/02/18 06:29 AM Re: What lies beneath [Re: Zeno]
ShadowLover Offline
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Didn't farming develop so people could live in places where it wasn't suitable for people to live? Basically, it is farming that allowed extensive migration and over-population.

I actually believe hunting/gathering is the most natural way for people to live, but I don't see that we can ever return to that while our population is so large. Unless of course, we hunt and eat each other (kidding).

Naturally, large numbers of people should not be living in deserts or anywhere else barren. Large cities shouldn't exist - you can't hunt in a city. The human race is imploding which I believe is natural - it is the environment fighting back... the Earth's ecosystem trying to re-balance itself. If we are lucky, by imploding, our numbers will drop and we will lose our viral likeness, and the race itself will survive.

Zeno, the ocean is also in trouble after that nuclear leak in Fukushima a few years back. Nobody knows how to fix it.
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#115920 - 03/03/18 01:38 AM Re: What lies beneath [Re: Zeno]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
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You stand, and made a nice, example for being plugged by the media...

Yet the links provided insight to the point I made. There is a societal problem beneath it all. Each and every pointer of "disconnection" is rooted by the idea of information overdose.
People are more social by being mentally connected through social media.

Day in and day out you are being bombarded by "picture perfects" of mediocre life. This through updates, posts, "stories" and whatnots made and uploaded by your peers, family and friends. Unknowingly you fall in line to not provoke ire or backclap. To evade criticism and get those likes and retweets. To get a sense of acceptence...and it will result in not being able to set or discern priorities.

It's whoring yourself on a mental level.

Is it that surprising mental illnesses and your pointers of "disconnection" are happening? They should not as people have never been more connected.

In a certain sense are people trying to unplug themselves but end up falling in a spiral of depression and confusion as no one is left to socialize with.



Edited by Dimitri (03/03/18 01:39 AM)
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#115933 - 03/04/18 05:40 PM Re: What lies beneath [Re: Dimitri]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
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Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2721
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
What's the point of this thread? That contemporary society (USA or everywhere) is FUBAR generally?

If so are you proposing a fix, or just venting?

Relating this to Satanism, and since you elsewhere brought up Anton LaVey's "depth", I might mention that one of his principles, which I shared then+, is that if you're going to whine about something, propose and do something to fix it.

For instance he started the Church of Satan not as a $-venture [in those days a lifetime membership cost $13, and he got 10 cents for each copy of the SB sold]. It was because he saw American society as SNAFU if not FUBAR, for which he blamed the established religions and their hypocrisy. So he decided to create a better alternative. That it was also spooky and fun was icing on the cake. I should say cheesecake, because we also got Playbody centerfolds on the altar instead of a corpse on a torture device. \:D

So if you're righteously pissed, what are you doing about it?

Just to cheer you up:

 Originally Posted By: James Ellroy
Inside of seventy years ago some writers hatched a revisionist notion that, contrary to commonly-held gospel, America was the wrong place at the wrong time, led by the wrong leaders, feeding a wronged population a line of jive that sounded good but had to go wrong because the entire American venture was a freak curve ball arcing the wrong way; gathering power and veering out of control, held temporarily aloft by a pervasive corruption intrinsic to its momentum, but bound to hit the gutter anyway.

 Originally Posted By: William Burroughs
America is not a young land: it is old and dirty and evil before the settlers, before the Indians. The evil is there waiting.
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#115938 - 03/05/18 01:28 AM Re: What lies beneath [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3353
I might play with the idea of starting a cult around Typhon.
A continuation of one unlike the other for what could have been etc..

Did you just get salty for having ASL being called out?
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#115953 - 03/06/18 06:04 AM Re: What lies beneath [Re: Dimitri]
Zeno Offline
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Registered: 03/15/15
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Delete the internet and social media, people will still fall into tribal conformity and the dull routine of life; this is how it always has been, and always will be.

A few will step outside of the box, because genetics has allowed them that liberty, they will become either the path finders offering new roads by which the crowd will follow, or become shark bait so that others might avoid a dangerous path and survive.
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#115972 - 03/07/18 01:11 PM Re: What lies beneath [Re: Zeno]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3353
See, there lies the problem.

"Pre-destination", "others",...

Responsibility to the responsible was once a saying.
And I'm inclined to believe people became more lazy even so.
"Genetics" is the wrong answer.
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#115982 - 03/08/18 05:46 AM Re: What lies beneath [Re: Dimitri]
Zeno Offline
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Registered: 03/15/15
Posts: 145
Dimitri, question, what do you propose as a solution to your complaint about society?

My argument, if it is the natural state of human nature and civilization to act according to the common patterns that you disapprove, then it is no point opposing it, do your own thing, let society flow towards whatever natural end state it has chosen to go.
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#116038 - 03/12/18 02:48 AM Re: What lies beneath [Re: Zeno]
Dimitri Offline
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Let's give a slight kick to an established bucket of water.
Civilizations never ceased to exist nor did they fall.
They transcended and adapted towards the changing of times.

There is no end, even though it has been taught that way for convenience sake.

In the last paragraph the following remark is all what is needed.

"It wouldn't be a bad move to start deciding what is black and what is white in ones life instead of seeing and acting on these shades of grey."
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#116039 - 03/12/18 03:51 AM Re: What lies beneath [Re: Dimitri]
Zeno Offline
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Registered: 03/15/15
Posts: 145
 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
Let's give a slight kick to an established bucket of water.
Civilizations never ceased to exist nor did they fall.
They transcended and adapted towards the changing of times.

There is no end, even though it has been taught that way for convenience sake.


Agreed.

 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
In the last paragraph the following remark is all what is needed.

"It wouldn't be a bad move to start deciding what is black and what is white in ones life instead of seeing and acting on these shades of grey."


I disagree. All things have a mix of yin and yang in them, thus all things are grey from this mixing. The middle way, the golden mean, is always the good way to proceed in life. The human body, as do all things in nature, follows the middle way of greys, for if the body is too hot; or too cold; or too acidic, or too alkaline; or too dry; or too watery: the life processes of the body collapses, the body dies. The same in weather: too much rain creates floods; too little rain causes drought - both extremes destroy crops.

In life it is a numbers game, if the majority follow one path, and the few another, then the majority usually shapes society and history. Only if the few offer a path that is seen as beneficial to the majority, will the many follow a new path, which becomes a paradigm change. However, extreme positions rarely benefit the many for long, so always the extreme positions fail.

All the individual can hope to do, if they dislike the common path that the many follow, is to walk their own path, by example offer an alternative signpost that others might choose to follow.

It is pointless complaining about paths others follow, unless a new path becomes visible to them, and is beneficial in some manner to appeal to others to follow. It is by paradigm shifts that history is shaped, flint axes replaced with bronze axes, then iron axes. Sometimes the paradigm shift is a mixed benefit: for bronze axes are in many ways better than iron axes, harder and decay slowly; but iron in iron axes is common, easier to work.
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#116043 - 03/12/18 03:16 PM Re: What lies beneath [Re: Zeno]
Dimitri Offline
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Spare me the oriental nonsense as it only conforts the emotional weak.

You speak of shades of grey and yet draw clear dichotomies.
It's a good example of lacking the well-needed backbone to make a decent case. Intellectualism be damned. It was the warrior who took the wives and beheaded the philosophers as they chattered away the mysteries of the universe in their chairs.

"I walk my own path".
No you fucking don't.
"A majority does this, few do that".
Neither did that happen.

You confuse mediocrity with progression and parrots with eagles.
You talk about societies and individuals.
I fail to see any mention of the proverbial "I" (yourself).
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#116050 - 03/13/18 12:12 AM Re: What lies beneath [Re: Dimitri]
Zeno Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
Spare me the oriental nonsense as it only conforts the emotional weak.


The orient gives history martial arts. Karate uses the extreme position of the opponent to over-balance and defeat them.

 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
You speak of shades of grey and yet draw clear dichotomies.
It's a good example of lacking the well-needed backbone to make a decent case. Intellectualism be damned. It was the warrior who took the wives and beheaded the philosophers as they chattered away the mysteries of the universe in their chairs.


Warrior-philosophers know when it is appropriate to fight; example, those who know of Sun Tzu Art of War.

 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
"I walk my own path".
No you fucking don't.
"A majority does this, few do that".
Neither did that happen.


Then, why complain about what others and society are doing? Ignore them, walk your own path.

 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
You confuse mediocrity with progression and parrots with eagles.
You talk about societies and individuals.
I fail to see any mention of the proverbial "I" (yourself).


I talk of many things. I walk the middle path. What will be will be. All things will find its natural measure. Stepping back from society, proceeding with detachment, the individual avoids entrapment in the noise and manipulations of society.
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#116051 - 03/13/18 02:05 AM Re: What lies beneath [Re: Zeno]
Dimitri Offline
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There is no such thing as a "warrior-philosopher".
You either attack or sit around. The guy pondering when and how to attack is most likely the first to be overwhelmed and snuffed.

The martial arts of the Orient only serve aesthetic value. Their popularity having to do with romance to the mystic and Hollywood instead of decent battle.

As by your own admittance, you are merely a speck of grey.
Nothing.


Edited by Dimitri (03/13/18 02:07 AM)
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#116055 - 03/13/18 04:09 AM Re: What lies beneath [Re: Dimitri]
Zeno Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
There is no such thing as a "warrior-philosopher".
You either attack or sit around. The guy pondering when and how to attack is most likely the first to be overwhelmed and snuffed.


I disagree. Anyone who uses the tactics of Sun Tzu Art of War are warrior-philosophers. Life, business and politics are battlefields, war is common in nature and in life. Success or failure is based upon good choices, deeds made at the right time in the right way. The Art of War advises calculate before engaging the enemy in battle.

 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
The martial arts of the Orient only serve aesthetic value. Their popularity having to do with romance to the mystic and Hollywood instead of decent battle.


I disagree. The martial arts are a skill useful in practical objective ways. Karate is useful when an enemy engages the individual with a knife. The martial arts teach a middle balanced way, and this is vital to success in life.


 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
As by your own admittance, you are merely a speck of grey.
Nothing.


I agree. I am humble. In the grand expanse of nature I am a speck of grey dust. I bleed, I die. I will become nothing more than dust, and I will be forgotten, so will you.
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#116112 - 03/21/18 03:18 AM Re: What lies beneath [Re: Zeno]
Dimitri Offline
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Bussiness and politics are mind-games.
There is no true battle, only pettiness.

I stand firm in my opinion that most martial arts being practiced by the common man only serves as an aesthetic. I'm yet to see the first guy or gal pull a move out in defense or attack.
The only goal is to keep the body fit and flexible. Something which can also be achieved by any other sport.

I will also repeat, there are no warrior-philosophers.
You either charge or hold. Szun-Tzu is not a philosopher but a strategist. His "art of War" should be, and is, hindsight for anyone with half a brain for warfare. It's no philosophy, it's a fucking manual.


Edited by Dimitri (03/21/18 03:27 AM)
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#116168 - 04/01/18 05:37 AM Re: What lies beneath [Re: Dimitri]
Creatura Noptii Offline
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 Originally Posted By: D
Bussiness and politics are mind-games.
There is no true battle, only pettiness.


What the fuck are you even talking about here?!

 Quote:
I'm yet to see the first guy or gal pull a move out in defense or attack.
The only goal is to keep the body fit and flexible. Something which can also be achieved by any other sport.


This is stupid shit man. I've seen what martial artists can do. Maybe Europeans are pussies about martial arts, idk. Its not about 'keeping fit' so much as destroying your opponent and stayin' alive. Course, forms vary, some more effective and real than others. Don't confuse wrestling mania and other sports with martial arts. That's what retarded 'murkans do.
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#116188 - 04/06/18 12:32 AM Re: What lies beneath [Re: Creatura Noptii]
Dimitri Offline
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Yes, I've also seen my fair share of Jackie Chan and Bruce Lee movies. Big deal...

The rest has been clearly stated as can be.
The incongruency stems from your part.
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#116199 - 04/07/18 12:19 PM Re: What lies beneath [Re: Dimitri]
William Wright Offline
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Registered: 10/25/09
Posts: 917
Loc: Nashville
My response to the person questioning the purpose of practicing martial arts would be the same as my response to the person questioning the purpose of carrying a concealed firearm.

It serves no practical purpose unless you're attacked, but if you're attacked it might just save your life.

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#116221 - 04/25/18 10:34 PM Re: What lies beneath [Re: William Wright]
Friend of zoogs Offline
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Registered: 02/07/15
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But it does suit a practical purpose (Martial arts that is)outside physical combat. Similarly the left hand path (as I understand it) suits a purpose outside the truth obscuring intellectualism of considering the grey areas of our society and it's transformation due to "social media"

Self discipline, focus, timing, and accuracy extend themselves outside the confines of physicality. Just as the mental exercise of transcending (combat) normality, pushes the mind to focus on the core.

Two days ago, I went early to throw some shit into the garbage of my urban dwelling and inside my garbage can was a fox. He (or she, who knows) had a cantaloupe rind. That fucker jumped straight up and landed way too close to me for their own comfort, but without dropping the prize, made off with what I would call a casual trot.

That is how I would like to see myself in terms of society. Stone ax or stainless scalpel, winning the prize that I have identified. Part of the value of the whole is the ability to divide from it. The world doesn't need to be intellectually realized, it is just part of the honing process. That is how I see it.
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