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#1161 - 10/17/07 11:31 PM MIxed messages from the Satanist's candidate
Octavius Offline
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Registered: 08/28/07
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Many of my Satanic friends have been openly supoportive of Republican presidential candidate Ron Paul. I found some interesting media clips about him which seem to paint him in various lights. Personally, I neither support, nor object to Ron Paul. But I do love our media circus. Mixed and conflicting messages come from both of the below media pieces...discuss...

Paper: HOUSTON CHRONICLE
Date: THU 05/23/1996
Section: A
Page: 33
Edition: 3 STAR
CAMPAIGN '96/U.S. HOUSE/Newsletter excerpts offer ammunition to Paul's opponent/GOP hopeful quoted on race, crime

By ALAN BERNSTEIN, Houston Chronicle Political Writer
Staff

.

Texas congressional candidate Ron Paul's 1992 political newsletter highlighted portrayals of blacks as inclined toward crime and lacking sense about top political issues.

Under the headline of ""Terrorist Update," for instance, Paul reported on gang crime in Los Angeles and commented, ""If you have ever been robbed by a black teen-aged male, you know how unbelievably fleet-footed they can be."

Paul, a Republican obstetrician from Surfside, said Wednesday he opposes racism and that his written commentaries about blacks came in the context of ""current events and statistical reports of the time."

Selected writings by Paul were distributed Wednesday by the campaign of his Democratic opponent, Austin lawyer Charles ""Lefty" Morris.

Morris said many of Paul's views are ""out there on the fringe" and that his commentaries will be judged by voters in the November general elections.

Paul said allegations about his writings amounted to name-calling by the Democrats and that his opponents should focus instead on how to shrink government spending and reform welfare.

Morris and Paul are seeking the 14th Congressional District seat held by Greg Laughlin of West Columbia. Laughlin lost the Republican primary to Paul, a former congressman and the Libertarian Party's 1988 presidential candidate.

Paul, writing in his independent political newsletter in 1992, reported about unspecified surveys of blacks.

""Opinion polls consistently show that only about 5 percent of blacks have sensible political opinions, i.e. support the free market, individual liberty and the end of welfare and affirmative action," Paul wrote.

Paul continued that politically sensible blacks are outnumbered ""as decent people." Citing reports that 85 percent of all black men in the District of Columbia are arrested, Paul wrote:

""Given the inefficiencies of what D.C. laughingly calls the `criminal justice system,' I think we can safely assume that 95 percent of the black males in that city are semi-criminal or entirely criminal," Paul said.

Paul also wrote that although ""we are constantly told that it is evil to be afraid of black men, it is hardly irrational. Black men commit murders, rapes, robberies, muggings and burglaries all out of proportion to their numbers."

A campaign spokesman for Paul said statements about the fear of black males mirror pronouncements by black leaders such as the Rev. Jesse Jackson, who has decried the spread of urban crime.

Paul continues to write the newsletter for an undisclosed number of subscribers, the spokesman said.

Writing in the same 1992 edition, Paul expressed the popular idea that government should lower the age at which accused juvenile criminals can be prosecuted as adults.

He added, ""We don't think a child of 13 should be held responsible as a man of 23. That's true for most people, but black males age 13 who have been raised on the streets and who have joined criminal gangs are as big, strong, tough, scary and culpable as any adult and should be treated as such."

Paul also asserted that ""complex embezzling" is conducted exclusively by non-blacks.

""What else do we need to know about the political establishment than that it refuses to discuss the crimes that terrify Americans on grounds that doing so is racist? Why isn't that true of complex embezzling, which is 100 percent white and Asian?" he wrote.

In later newsletters, Paul aimed criticism at the Israeli government's U.S. lobbying efforts and reported allegations that President Clinton used cocaine and fathered illegitimate children.

Stating that lobbying groups who seek special favors and handouts are evil, Paul wrote, ""By far the most powerful lobby in Washington of the bad sort is the Israeli government" and that the goal of the Zionist movement is to stifle criticism.

Relaying a rumor that Clinton was a longtime cocaine user, Paul wrote in 1994 that the speculation ""would explain certain mysteries" about the president's scratchy voice and insomnia.

""None of this is conclusive, of course, but it sure is interesting," he said.

and a link to another side of this issue...

RonPaulPBS
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#1162 - 10/18/07 01:10 AM Re: MIxed messages from the Satanist's candidate [Re: Octavius]
ballbreaker Offline
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Ron Paul's statistics on the black criminal demographic are all entirely correct, so I don't see what the issue is.

These views probably explain why he is the favored candidate of most Stormfront users, but I don't think Paul's off base on any of his comments on race and crime. It takes a lot of guts to speak truthfully on this subject.

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#1164 - 10/18/07 01:38 AM Re: MIxed messages from the Satanist's candidate [Re: ballbreaker]
Veldrin Offline
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Registered: 10/04/07
Posts: 55
Loc: Melbourne, Australia.
 Quote:
If you have ever been robbed by a black teen-aged male, you know how unbelievably fleet-footed they can be."


I think most successful muggers are fleet footed. It's evolution. All the pathetic ones are weeded out and caught. Natural selection at work in your daily life \:\)

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#1166 - 10/18/07 03:43 AM Re: MIxed messages from the Satanist's candidate [Re: ballbreaker]
Woland Moderator Offline
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 Originally Posted By: ballbreaker
Ron Paul's statistics on the black criminal demographic are all entirely correct, so I don't see what the issue is.


Ouchhh!
Seems you are spending to much time in educational institutions...
Ever considered the socio-political factors behind such statistics?

I was once tutored by a very wise man.
Wise Words Warning:

The only statistics you can trust, are the ones you personally forged...

Hail & Sieg!

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Woland

Contra Mundum!

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#1177 - 10/18/07 10:57 AM Re: MIxed messages from the Satanist's candidate [Re: Woland]
ballbreaker Offline
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Of course socio-economic factors have an influence; the dichotomy between nature and nurture is a false one. Low income whites are more likely to commit a crime than middle income whites, of course this is true.

However, control for income and you'll find that at all levels of the socio-economic ladder blacks "out crime" all other racial groups.

Too much time in an educational institution? If this were true I'd be screaming "racism!" and "fascism!" at Octavius just for posting this information.

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#1178 - 10/18/07 11:56 AM Re: MIxed messages from the Satanist's candidate [Re: ballbreaker]
Woland Moderator Offline
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My dear Ballbreaker.

Whatever happened to your sense of humor?
My oh so witty remark about self destruction through educational institutions was directed towards your recent seriousness and dedication, as well as your insistent use of "facts" and "statistics".

Socio-economical factors are only one itsy bitsy part of a very complex SOCIO-POLITICAL problem.

"80% of all muggers are black" is nothing but a cultural vulgarism.

The statistics you refer to are counting:

*Shouts*

THOSE WHO GOT BLEEDING CAUGHT AND WERE FOUND GUILTY IN A COURT OF LAW!!!

*Sighs*

Young people nowadays...
Now; when I was young etc etc.
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#1179 - 10/18/07 04:06 PM Re: MIxed messages from the Satanist's candidate [Re: Woland]
ballbreaker Offline
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Why don't you tell me how the statistics would pan out if everyone was caught breaking the law; this would give me an idea of your theoretical view of things.
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#1185 - 10/18/07 07:29 PM Re: MIxed messages from the Satanist's candidate [Re: ballbreaker]
Fist Moderator Offline
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And?....

Does this disturb people? Why?

I think he is spot on. What is the confusion?

The fact of the matter is that in America it is White Males that win elections. Yes Virginia, the dirty little secret is that White Males make up the largest voting bloc in the US.

Pandering to the 'Ghetto Vote' will get you nowhere. In the mind of most White American Males, a young Black Male is the face of violent crime. Ever been to a gun range in the US? There is a reason the silhouette targets are black! And who do you see shooting? Mostly White Males.

Ron Paul is clearly tuned in to a key political demographic.
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#1186 - 10/18/07 07:32 PM Re: MIxed messages from the Satanist's candidate [Re: ballbreaker]
Fist Moderator Offline
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 Originally Posted By: ballbreaker
Why don't you tell me how the statistics would pan out if everyone was caught breaking the law; this would give me an idea of your theoretical view of things.


Yes, really! I would like to know this as well. How should the statistics read if they were not 'fixed'?
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#1187 - 10/18/07 08:34 PM Re: MIxed messages from the Satanist's candidate [Re: Fist]
Woland Moderator Offline
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Jeeeezzzz. You guys are acting stupid...
Which BTW is an utterly unmanly, silly and uncharming way to conduct yourself in public.

All statistics are "fixed" to serve a purpose.
Do not pretend that you do not understand this "fact".
You are both much more intelligent than that.
Why do you not come clean and discuss this issue in an open state of mind?





Edited by Woland (10/19/07 08:39 AM)
Edit Reason: Unrespectful language. Was shitfaced at the time.
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#1188 - 10/18/07 09:30 PM Re: MIxed messages from the Satanist's candidate [Re: Woland]
Fist Moderator Offline
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 Quote:
Why do you not come clean and discuss this issue in an open state of mind?


Hear! Hear! For coming clean.

Now what is the issue that we are discussing? I thought this thread was about Ron Paul's political positions. I tend to agree with him based on my own experiences with American Blacks. What have been your experiences with American Blacks?

You cite something about socio-economic issues. I would love to discuss this problem in depth. In fact, it honestly needs it's own thread. All the same, does one's socio-economic condition excuse them from personal accountability?

Never the less, please feel free to take this thread in any direction you like.
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#1198 - 10/19/07 08:58 AM Re: MIxed messages from the Satanist's candidate [Re: Fist]
MCSA TEK Offline
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Registered: 09/13/07
Posts: 97
Loc: Orlando Fl USA
 Originally Posted By: Fist
Ever been to a gun range in the US? There is a reason the silhouette targets are black! And who do you see shooting? Mostly White Males.


The targets were invented by the US military. Pre WW1 the targets were simple geometric shapes panted on wood or paper. But it was discovered that training in this way, didn't prepare the solder to shoot a person. Many experienced hesitation when on the front lines when finally aiming at an actual person.
The modern silhouette was created by observing what the actual target looks like when shooting a real person.

Let me explain.

When taught to shoot during this period, people were told to focus their eye. Not on the target, but on the front sight. By focusing on the front sight, the rear site is still in focus enough to still allow reasonable accuracy and the target also remains in view. Because the eye isn't focused on the target, It looks very indistinct, looses most detail, colors blend into a grey, and it looks very much like the modern silhouette.

By making this simple change in the targets appearance, hesitation when finally faced with shooting a person was improved by a good percentage.

It has nothing to do with African Americans. It was a psychological answer to the problem of making a more efficient killer.


As for, who shoots at the gun range. It depends on the Range. Most gun ranges in my area tend to have a mostly Hispanic client base, while Oakridge gun range tends to be mostly black. I have shot at these gun ranges and have never had one problem.

Chris

A true gun enthusiast would never deny someone their right to defend themselves or their family, no matter what their skin color.


Edited by MCSA TEK (10/19/07 09:03 AM)
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#1201 - 10/19/07 01:43 PM Re: MIxed messages from the Satanist's candidate [Re: Woland]
ballbreaker Offline
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Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 134
Loc: Toronto, Canada
 Quote:
All statistics are "fixed" to serve a purpose.


Maybe so, but we can discuss hegemony later. If you want to play Gramsci then start a new thread; I want you to tell me how the statistics should read.

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#1202 - 10/19/07 02:02 PM Re: MIxed messages from the Satanist's candidate [Re: Fist]
ballbreaker Offline
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Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 134
Loc: Toronto, Canada
 Quote:
All the same, does one's socio-economic condition excuse them from personal accountability?


I think that we exist within a deterministic universe, and that your question should read: should one's socio-economic condition excuse them from personal accountability?

Determinism mostly does away with the notion of a pure free-will, but we have to consider how we would function as a society if we shunned free will and embraced determinism. We need the idea of pure free will/personal responsibility to support the capitalistic model, alternatively embracing determinism would make life impossible or, at the least, bizarre.

Determinism may be true but truth in and of itself does not make a thing desirable.

Our society functions best (worth going into later what "best" means) by upholding the notion of personal responsibility and free will, partly because these concepts themselves have an impact on individuals' choices and decisions.

Determinism seems to lead to some kind of egalitarianism, since we would posit that no one is fully responsible for their plight/wealth.

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#1205 - 10/19/07 06:03 PM Re: MIxed messages from the Satanist's candidate [Re: ballbreaker]
Meq Offline
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 Quote:
Determinism seems to lead to some kind of egalitarianism, since we would posit that no one is fully responsible for their plight/wealth.


And yet - the irony is that the conception of absolute free will is ultimately a Judeo-Christian notion, needed for that theological concept of sin. (To be absolutely responsible for doing evil (needed for damnation) requires absolute personal responsibility, which requires absolute free will...)

This concept lingers on long after the concept of God was largely abandoned by modern thinkers.
Yet without the notion of a God miraculously endowing us with a transcendental capacity for free will, the notion of humans being 'self-determining beings' is, as Nietzsche put it, "trying to drag oneself into existence out of the swamp of non-being by the hair."

As for the contention that determinism may lead to an egalitatianism...

Actually, I don't think determinism logically implies any political system at all. A deterministic "acceptance" of reality doesn't imply egalitarianism, for even if we accept that people cannot be held responsible for their plight - we still need to prove that humans have the 'right to equality' which egalitarianism implies - and the moral duty to help others and relieve them from this plight.
Actually, determinism would also state that a person ultimately cannot help whether he chooses to help others or act selfishly, as all these actions would be pre-determined. Thus, it would not allow for a moral rule such as "people should choose to help each other" - as 'should' implies 'can' (to quote Kant) - so if a person chooses otherwise, they could not be said to really have any choice in the matter at all, nor could they be held morally responsible.

The source of ethics and political ideals in a deterministic system must arise from a different source than a notion of logically-derived 'duties' which a person 'should' perform.
From a Darwinian perspective, the human phenomena of morality and politics evolved from natural cooperation among our animal ancestors, and thus are biological in nature.

This ties in with the Empiricist notion that moral and political values are ultimately based on emotion rather than reason - for they relate to our emotional brain rather than our higher cognitive faculties.

Social morality and political values can thus be promoted through rhetoric (or propaganda?) which stirs up social emotions (such as a sense of justice or compassion). For good social cohesion, though, the individual may have to be emotionally stirred to a disempowering extent, beyond the extent which is good for him or her.

Individuals will of course rebel against this... so a system of social propaganda needs to be more subtle, and promote what is good for society as a whole as if it was good for the individual.
The important thing is not that this is actually TRUE, merely that it is believed...
Further, the individual is often invited to confuse and conflate their individual self with a collectivised identity based on abstract social values.

One bizarre side-effect of this is that often remote social issues are deeply personalised, and treated as if they were one's own problems. A good dose of self-deception insures that one's beliefs about these personalised issues are unsubstantiated and dogmatic, leading to much emotional agitation, moral indignation, bigotry, and generally a disempowered and frustrated outlook.

Hence the sight of otherwise intelligent and clear-headed individuals getting worked up about their dogmatic moral and political views.

Have a nice day.

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#1206 - 10/19/07 07:59 PM Re: MIxed messages from the Satanist's candidate [Re: Meq]
ballbreaker Offline
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Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 134
Loc: Toronto, Canada
I've fallen in love!

 Quote:
the irony is that the conception of absolute free will is ultimately a Judeo-Christian notion, needed for that theological concept of sin. (To be absolutely responsible for doing evil (needed for damnation) requires absolute personal responsibility, which requires absolute free will...)


Yes! If it weren't for Christianity's influence we would not have the system that we today possess; a great, fairly recent book on this subject is Rodney Stark's "The Victory of Reason" (Weber's classic "Protestant Ethic" works well too), which chronicles Christianity's enormous contribution to what we call the West today. Stark is a bit of a Christophile, but his general argument is spot on.

 Quote:
Yet without the notion of a God miraculously endowing us with a transcendental capacity for free will, the notion of humans being 'self-determining beings' is, as Nietzsche put it, "trying to drag oneself into existence out of the swamp of non-being by the hair."


Agreed! "Darwin's Cathedral" by David Sloan Wilson sheds light on the possibility that religion and deism serve evolutionary needs. I'm sure we've all been confronted by the rare agnostic or sceptical Christian who suggests that although it is possible, even probable, that God does not exist, society would not function well without the concept.

 Quote:
Actually, I don't think determinism logically implies any political system at all. A deterministic "acceptance" of reality doesn't imply egalitarianism, for even if we accept that people cannot be held responsible for their plight - we still need to prove that humans have the 'right to equality' which egalitarianism implies - and the moral duty to help others and relieve them from this plight.


I agree with you to an extent, but my point was mainly that if a society embraced determinism as the new "collective psychology" (versus free will, or quasi-free will as we have it today) capitalism would probably not function as effeciently as it does now. You're right though, strictly speaking we can't automatically draw moral conclusions from the observation that the universe is deterministic.

 Quote:
From a Darwinian perspective, the human phenomena of morality and politics evolved from natural cooperation among our animal ancestors, and thus are biological in nature.

This ties in with the Empiricist notion that moral and political values are ultimately based on emotion rather than reason - for they relate to our emotional brain rather than our higher cognitive faculties.


Agreed; morals are effectively arbitrary constructions of the mind that serve an evolutionary, functional purpose among human societies.

This is why I think that moral philosophies such as Marxism, anarchism, all sorts of egalitarianisms, are fundamentally in error because they confuse the system as a survival mechanism for the system as the product of abstract morality; the system as a thing to be changed not to augment "survivability" but to be in sync with what is "good" and "just" in the abstract, moral plane.

 Quote:
Individuals will of course rebel against this... so a system of social propaganda needs to be more subtle, and promote what is good for society as a whole as if it was good for the individual.


Yes, natural hierarchy and Gramsci's notion of hegemony as its result.

Good show, really excellent stuff...I don't think I've ever encountered someone who seems to agree with me at a fundamental level like this.

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#1207 - 10/19/07 08:56 PM Re: MIxed messages from the Satanist's candidate [Re: MCSA TEK]
Fist Moderator Offline
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Registered: 08/31/07
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 Quote:
The targets were invented by the US military.


That was sarcasm son! Don't you get it? The high fast one's are going right over you!

I think most folks here know my bona fides but just to clear things up, I started as an NRA high power rifle shooter at 16. Last week I did more shooting in one day than most shooters do all year. I shot about 1000 rounds out of my M4 and about 600 from my M9 pistol.

We still teach "front sight! front sight! front sight!" because it puts rounds on target - and for no other reason.

In any event, I do like the way this thread has veered into a discussion on determinism. And this is why this site is the only thing like it on the web.


Edited by Fist (10/19/07 09:06 PM)
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