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#11729 - 09/22/08 10:02 AM TSB - The Book of Lucifer - Love & Hate
Fabiano Offline
member


Registered: 09/06/08
Posts: 374
Hi,

I'm currently reading TSB, I'll probably have some questions I'll would like to have feedback on. I'll also put some personal comments just for the fun of exchanging our points of view, ideas, etc...

So that my first question related to "Love and hate" : I don't find in this chapter a definition of love. It's just said at the begining "Love is one of the most intense emotion a man can feel" which is not really a definition.

Who then can give me a definition of Love ?

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#11735 - 09/22/08 12:02 PM Re: TSB - The Book of Lucifer - Love & Hate [Re: Fabiano]
Impius Offline
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Registered: 09/08/08
Posts: 60
Loc: Lille, France
I guess LaVey didn't give this definition because it's very subjective, and each person feels it differently.

To me, "love" is what you feel for a person with who you could be in couple for your whole life (even if it probably won't happen, you know, that "damn, I'm feeling so fine with him/her, I can't see any reason which would make us break up"). It's the combination of 2 human emotions : desire and affection.

A love story without desire, that is to say without sex, wouldn't be one : it would be friendship. Kissing on cheeks or lips are just social codes. A love story without affection would neither be one : it would just be a sex story.

Affection for love is particularly great, but you may feel such an affection for other person : closest friends, family members... it may look simplish, but to me love really is the combination of these two emotions (two of the three basic ones LaVey used as ritual types btw ;\) ).
_________________________
In the end everyone dies...

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#11736 - 09/22/08 12:08 PM Re: TSB - The Book of Lucifer - Love & Hate [Re: Fabiano]
Ringmaster Offline
member


Registered: 04/07/08
Posts: 205
Loc: Salem Oregon
 Originally Posted By: Fabiano
Hi,

I'm currently reading TSB, I'll probably have some questions I'll would like to have feedback on. I'll also put some personal comments just for the fun of exchanging our points of view, ideas, etc...

So that my first question related to "Love and hate" : I don't find in this chapter a definition of love. It's just said at the begining "Love is one of the most intense emotion a man can feel" which is not really a definition.

Who then can give me a definition of Love ?




You're kidding right? Love is one of those things that you just feel I mean people have different defferent definitions to the word. Have you not had the feeling of love towards anyone not even family?
_________________________
Get off the cross and save yourself, I feel no pity for the cries of a weak man.

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#11739 - 09/22/08 01:47 PM Re: TSB - The Book of Lucifer - Love & Hate [Re: Ringmaster]
The Zebu Offline
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Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1647
Loc: Orlando, FL
Well that would be romantic love... there's familial love as well.
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«Recibe, ˇoh Lucifer! la sangre de esta víctima que sacrifico en tu honor.»

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#11746 - 09/22/08 08:04 PM Re: TSB - The Book of Lucifer - Love & Hate [Re: The Zebu]
Fabiano Offline
member


Registered: 09/06/08
Posts: 374
Thanks for there first answers.

Ringmaster, I'm not kidding. I'm just curious about love's definition from some satanists.

I have my own definition and I think it fits with Satanism but I just wanted to have other members opinion beforehand.

I take notice that for you (all) love is a feeling.

Impius, you say love is the combination of affection &desire I swear I love my mother but I feel no desire for her ;\) So love can exists without desire (as The Zebu noticed)

On the other hand there can be desire without affection. It's when you would say "sex is like chocolate, it's good ! "

To my point of view there is often a confusion between "loving" and "falling in love" (in french "aimer" et "ętre amoureux" if someone has a better translation...)

Falling in love is a feeling, but what about love ?

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#11757 - 09/23/08 06:17 AM Re: TSB - The Book of Lucifer - Love & Hate [Re: Fabiano]
MaggotFaceMoe Offline
member


Registered: 08/30/07
Posts: 164
Loc: Finland
I don't mean to ridicule, but what I don't get is that you're 41 and you have to ask for a definition of love... And besides, I'm not sure anyone else is better qualified to define it for you than yourself.
You love your mother, so you know what it is. Can it be more pure and unconditional than love for your family...
I wouldn't say love is affection and desire, if desire is meant to be intimate... Perhaps desire to see to the needs of another person, to make them happy and be there for them. I see sexual desire as a whole another thing and has nothing to do with actual feeling of love.
Could be wrong though... \:\)

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#11758 - 09/23/08 06:59 AM Re: TSB - The Book of Lucifer - Love & Hate [Re: Fabiano]
Impius Offline
pledge


Registered: 09/08/08
Posts: 60
Loc: Lille, France
 Originally Posted By: Fabiano
Impius, you say love is the combination of affection &desire I swear I love my mother but I feel no desire for her ;\) So love can exists without desire (as The Zebu noticed)


Yup, because to me the word "love" stands for a couple relationship. What you feel for members of your family, close friend etc is affection too, but without desire so it's totally different, and I personnally don't call it love. But everyone has his own terms...

As for desire in "real" love, it's quite strong too : enough to make you ready to have sex with that person only until... you don't know. So it's not that bestial.
_________________________
In the end everyone dies...

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#11764 - 09/23/08 09:25 AM Re: TSB - The Book of Lucifer - Love & Hate [Re: MaggotFaceMoe]
Fabiano Offline
member


Registered: 09/06/08
Posts: 374
 Originally Posted By: MaggotFaceMoe
I don't mean to ridicule, but what I don't get is that you're 41 and you have to ask for a definition of love... And besides, I'm not sure anyone else is better qualified to define it for you than yourself.


Yes I'm 41 asking for a definition of Love. I was just curious to see how satanists define Love. It does not mean that I don't know what is love neither that I do not have my own definition of it....

He is a definition of Love given by Scott Peck and which is to me the best one I ever seen. It reflects my own point of view by defining Love as "The will to extend one's self for the purpose of nurturing one's own or another's spiritual growth."

I would be pleased to have your comments & reactions on this definition.

To me it does not go against Satanism.
The key point is that Love is NOT a feeling it's an act of volition. It's a choice that you make. It's a decision to make some efforts.
In this perspective, I think Satanist can really apply this as they choose to love their friends and not thir ennemies. There is well a choice in Satanism Love.
In addition, if we have to decide to make effort it's quite obvious that we cannot love everybody. We have to choose who we want to Love and also how & "how much" we'll love other ones.
Finally, as this definition also include "self-love", the love you give to yourself, it also means that you will continously have to choose if you want to make efforts for yourself of for your friends. We have to rest after some efforts, we don't have an infinite "capacity of love" so we must make choices !

Any comments on these first consideration?

We can discuss later about the other key point: "nurturing one's own or another's spiritual growth"

Fabiano


Edited by Fabiano (09/23/08 09:26 AM)

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#12664 - 10/14/08 07:07 PM Re: TSB - The Book of Lucifer - Love & Hate [Re: Fabiano]
AnOpenHand Offline
stranger


Registered: 09/30/08
Posts: 32
Loc: England
Love is that warm lovely feeling that you're home.
That delicious stirring deep down when you watch your man stirring in his sleep.
Love is wanting to take that person to higher and higher realms of ecstacy.
Tolerance and unquestionable trust.
Love like you've never been hurt.
The only thing I couldn't forgive my man is infidelity. I find the purity fidelity brings both exciting and bonding. He could be in prison for 5 years and I'd just keep think bout the first time he'll lay his hands on me again. Or fall asleep with his head on my lap. Bring me tea in the morning, write me a gramatically awful poem, every little sound he makes when he's exerting himself.Or snuggling down against his big broad back after a nightmare... And we've be together for 4 years survived heroin and homelessness, you never have to worry or not be yourself, in fact my man is part of me.
Anyway got a bit carried away there, but thats what love does to me.
VIVA AMOURE <<<A.O.H.s francais sucks

HAIL SATAN

A.O.H.


Edited by AnOpenHand (10/14/08 07:09 PM)
_________________________
ASSHOLES AND ELBOWS YOU KNOW THE DRILL!!!

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#12672 - 10/14/08 08:41 PM Re: TSB - The Book of Lucifer - Love & Hate [Re: AnOpenHand]
blsk Offline
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Registered: 09/22/08
Posts: 298
Loc: salem or
The will to extend one's self for the purpose of nurturing one's own or another's spiritual growth? Maybe i'm reading it wrong but that sounds more to me like an agenda than love. For me love is probably the least, and most selfish feeling a human can feel. The woman I love I would do ANYTHING for. I would live for her and I would die for her, and I would do either with a smile on my face. Love is very self sacrificing but ultimatly to serve the contentedness of your own heart...I think
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#12684 - 10/14/08 11:19 PM Re: TSB - The Book of Lucifer - Love & Hate [Re: blsk]
BloodHorn Offline
member


Registered: 10/02/08
Posts: 131
Loc: Stockbridge Ga
I guess i need to re-read this chapter, So I can give a better opinion on what i think of this subject.
*Love is that warm lovely feeling that you're home*
That is true Hand. There is nothing like getting home after a long day at work and coming home. Or just a long day out in general.
Anyway I will re-read this chapter and give my opnion tomorrow sometime.
_________________________
Fuck You And Your Thoughts, I Have My own
Hail The Swords Of Darkness

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#12687 - 10/15/08 10:33 AM Re: TSB - The Book of Lucifer - Love & Hate [Re: BloodHorn]
Fabiano Offline
member


Registered: 09/06/08
Posts: 374
It seem that we're again facing two acceptations of "Love" like in the topic on Altruism.

There is the fuzzy idea that everybody more or less share. A priori, it seems so obvious what love is. Then you start exchanging, discussing, wanting to define it and surprises arrive.


For instance, trusting the beloved blindfully, is it love? It's looking like blind faith. And the day you learn you blindly trusted beloved has been infidel, what will you say? "How stupid I was" may be...

I heard about love as a feeling. But is it really a feeling?
Is it not confused with Joy? Because if you love someone, for sure when you're with him/her you will feel an intense joy. But suppose that he/she dies or betrays you. You will feel pain because you love it. Should we then associate love with that bad feeling you have when someone you love leaves you ?

That's my point : love is not a feeling but a choice, an act of volition.

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#12695 - 10/15/08 12:35 PM Re: TSB - The Book of Lucifer - Love & Hate [Re: Fabiano]
BloodHorn Offline
member


Registered: 10/02/08
Posts: 131
Loc: Stockbridge Ga
*love is not a feeling but a choice, an act of volition.*
Fabiano i can agree with that, Good point.
I re-read the chapter on Love and Hate, And what i go from it was; Do not waste your love on people that truly don't deserve it. Its a waste of energy and takes away from the ones you do love. As for hate i got out of it that you should hate whomever it is you hate with all you can. But don't let it control.
Maybe thats off, But thats what i got out of this chapter.
_________________________
Fuck You And Your Thoughts, I Have My own
Hail The Swords Of Darkness

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#12701 - 10/15/08 03:12 PM Re: TSB - The Book of Lucifer - Love & Hate [Re: BloodHorn]
blsk Offline
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Registered: 09/22/08
Posts: 298
Loc: salem or
I agree, for if you love your enemies, the ones you love should feel betrayed or cheated. It is not just an appearence the stirs such a thing of love. It's more complicated that that and I think we can all agree that regardless of our defenition it is complicated. It is, maybe, a combination of factors like behaviors, traits, and maybe the way they treat us in return. So why should someone we love treat us with things like kindness, devotion, and care due to love when we are just going to turn around and dish it out to every undeserving treacherous prick we come across like a 'please take one' tray. Seems their gestures are unappreciated, and trivial at best.
_________________________
Ed made mens sewing cool.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9mhsW5aWJM

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#12707 - 10/15/08 03:59 PM Re: TSB - The Book of Lucifer - Love & Hate [Re: blsk]
BloodHorn Offline
member


Registered: 10/02/08
Posts: 131
Loc: Stockbridge Ga
If i remember, Didn't Anton also say loving your enemy's puts you at there mercy?
'Why would you want to love someone who only does you wrong?
So why should someone we love treat us with things like kindness, devotion, and care due to love when we are just going to turn around and dish it out to every undeserving treacherous prick we come across like a 'please take one' tray. Seems their gestures are unappreciated, and trivial at best.' I like that statement Blsk, Its a great point and i could not agree more with you on it.
Thanks for the post. Much appreciated.


Edited by BloodHorn (10/15/08 04:00 PM)
_________________________
Fuck You And Your Thoughts, I Have My own
Hail The Swords Of Darkness

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#12757 - 10/16/08 02:54 PM Re: TSB - The Book of Lucifer - Love & Hate [Re: Fabiano]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
I don't think love is that much of a choice. It of course depends on what we actually imply with love because the word is used that much that it has become rather vague. People love kids, partners, friends and icecream.

When it comes to romantic love, I do think choice is a wrong word because we are more subject to a chemical state than we have a real choice. Those chemical imbalances are there for a reason and they show us once more we are just animals and subject to the same problems.

I'd say that love, besides being warm fuzzy and feeling pretty darn nice, is a distastrous condition to be in. Personally I'd rather survive my remaining days on roadkill than being subjected to it once more. Blindly that is.

Still, although me claiming it isn't a choice, I do think that once we realize what it is and how is conditions us, we do have a choice in how much we want to be subjected to it. We might not be able to really choose but we might be able to define how deep we're gonna be stuck.

D.

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#12765 - 10/16/08 07:17 PM Re: TSB - The Book of Lucifer - Love & Hate [Re: Diavolo]
Fabiano Offline
member


Registered: 09/06/08
Posts: 374
 Quote:
People love kids, partners, friends and icecream.


NO, you like a dish, love a person and adore a God.

 Quote:
When it comes to romantic love, I do think choice is a wrong word because we are more subject to a chemical state than we have a real choice. Those chemical imbalances are there for a reason and they show us once more we are just animals and subject to the same problems.


What you call "romantic love" is for me "attraction" and that's indeed the part where our animality is the most expressed.
In french we distinguish "aimer" (love) and "ętre amoureux" (???falling in love???), there is "l'amour" (alike Xian God's love) and "le sentiment amoureux" (??? love feeling ???).

What makes a man attractive to a woman?
The fact the he loves her? Surely not, they could meet for the first time.

The tone of the voice, the body language, the smels, the general attitude, the self-confidence, the charism,...

To me this is not love, is more related to sexual attraction. And yes the nature made us such that when a woman/man sees an attractive man/woman it generates feelings who "pushes" her/him in the others arms. Here is the "conditioning".

Now suppose the man & the women have a relation. At the begining, it'll be wonderfull. If both are "in love" (i.e. have "romantic love feelings") they see the other just perfect, with zero default. It's a very intense and rewarding experience to live, no issue with that. But it will not last forever, there will be disagreements, misundertsnadings,... between them and default will start to appear.

After these feelings have decreased, the man could find the women stupid or anoying and decide start loooking for the next one or choose to go on with her.
If they choose to share their lives, the just decide to better themselves together rather than separately. In such a relation, they decide to help eachothers to better themselves. They nurture the other's spiritual gowth.
I think it can be a win-win situation because there is a kind a "coach" effect the other makes on you (plus many other advantages).

I'm divorced, I don't have any attraction or romantic feelings for my former wife. But we have kept contacts, I see her regularly and I consider her as one of my best friends. So I'm still loving her... as a friend.

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#12775 - 10/17/08 02:53 AM Re: TSB - The Book of Lucifer - Love & Hate [Re: Fabiano]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
People should like dishes, dogs and music indeed but like I said, the word love is used so much it fits everywhere nowadays.

The intentions of those feelings is to reproduce. If there is one purpose in our life it is that. The whole loving part is probably some fucked-up game to keep partners long enough together to raise the offspring until they are old enough to survive on their own.

I don't think human couples are intended to be together forever and the fact that some do can maybe be explained by social factors. Again, choice might not be the correct word.
I don't deny there can be a win-win situation but here is never a win-win without somewhere lurking some loss. You stay together because the loss is tolerable.

I don't believe in love although it has been different in the past. I recognize and admit what happens but classify them as short-term chemical conditions. I refuse to see love as some sort of abstract thing like many do. We use the word to explain what is happening but it isn't more than that.

I've been married in the stoneage. I probably loved her at some point, married her mostly for practical reasons and divorced because it was less costly than murder. Chemical conditions are fleeting.

D.

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#13424 - 10/25/08 08:20 AM Re: TSB - The Book of Lucifer - Love & Hate [Re: blsk]
AnOpenHand Offline
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Registered: 09/30/08
Posts: 32
Loc: England
Its sad that you think that.
I often write poetry, not out of an agenda but because his beauty inspires me.
We fight over who's gonna make the tea because it makes us happy.
Some peoples own feelings can only be affirmed when theyre opposed to other peoples.
_________________________
ASSHOLES AND ELBOWS YOU KNOW THE DRILL!!!

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#13463 - 10/26/08 12:04 AM Re: TSB - The Book of Lucifer - Love & Hate [Re: Diavolo]
BlacKAcRE66 Offline
pledge


Registered: 10/22/08
Posts: 59
Loc: California
I think there are many levels of love. There is friendship, family members, and then there is the best thing that walked into your life. I fell in love only once in my life and that person was not even my wife whom I was already divorced from. It was the best thing for however long it lasted which was brief because well she had to go back East to her shit together, but I never stopped loving her.

It was the best thing that happened not because of anything sexual or sensually satisfying, which was not a problem, but because she was a tiger and I needed a tiger n my life...I loved getting into arguments with her because making up was great.

I think what you may need is a tiger in your life...The best relationships are those that have a disagreement every once in a while because it is a litmus test for how strong your relationship is...A relationship with no arguments or disagreements to me is full of pink elephants...It is as fake as Ned Flanders.

I think if you're a Satanist you should love as hard as you can and indulge.
_________________________
~The power to deny is as the power of myth~

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#13464 - 10/26/08 12:13 AM Re: TSB - The Book of Lucifer - Love & Hate [Re: Fabiano]
BlacKAcRE66 Offline
pledge


Registered: 10/22/08
Posts: 59
Loc: California
 Originally Posted By: Fabiano
 Quote:
People love kids, partners, friends and icecream.


NO, you like a dish, love a person and adore a God.

 Quote:
When it comes to romantic love, I do think choice is a wrong word because we are more subject to a chemical state than we have a real choice. Those chemical imbalances are there for a reason and they show us once more we are just animals and subject to the same problems.


What you call "romantic love" is for me "attraction" and that's indeed the part where our animality is the most expressed.
In french we distinguish "aimer" (love) and "ętre amoureux" (???falling in love???), there is "l'amour" (alike Xian God's love) and "le sentiment amoureux" (??? love feeling ???).

What makes a man attractive to a woman?
The fact the he loves her? Surely not, they could meet for the first time.

The tone of the voice, the body language, the smels, the general attitude, the self-confidence, the charism,...

To me this is not love, is more related to sexual attraction. And yes the nature made us such that when a woman/man sees an attractive man/woman it generates feelings who "pushes" her/him in the others arms. Here is the "conditioning".

Now suppose the man & the women have a relation. At the begining, it'll be wonderfull. If both are "in love" (i.e. have "romantic love feelings") they see the other just perfect, with zero default. It's a very intense and rewarding experience to live, no issue with that. But it will not last forever, there will be disagreements, misundertsnadings,... between them and default will start to appear.

After these feelings have decreased, the man could find the women stupid or anoying and decide start loooking for the next one or choose to go on with her.
If they choose to share their lives, the just decide to better themselves together rather than separately. In such a relation, they decide to help eachothers to better themselves. They nurture the other's spiritual gowth.
I think it can be a win-win situation because there is a kind a "coach" effect the other makes on you (plus many other advantages).

I'm divorced, I don't have any attraction or romantic feelings for my former wife. But we have kept contacts, I see her regularly and I consider her as one of my best friends. So I'm still loving her... as a friend.


Very nicely written, I think this says it all right here...You Europeans have a way of communicating on these subjects. I'll drink to this post.

Merci

This is an example of quoting an entire post and replying. You could have done the same thing by clicking the reply button under his post. It accomplishes the same point, without repeating the entire post and dragging it out. This won't be tolerated anymore, as stated on the site effective today.


Edited by fakepropht (10/26/08 12:51 AM)

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