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#117765 - 12/16/18 10:35 PM Re: National Socialism [Re: Creatura Noptii]
aeon6 Online
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Registered: 04/16/18
Posts: 332
Loc: KÝbenhavn, Denmark
Dominion over one's world is indeed a Satanic tenet, so why ask me how socialism relates?
Forming collective entities for the mere sanctification of human existence is not an irrational solution. To build and destroy with guns, as you put it, lands you in the predicament you find yourself in. What I find UNsatanic about you is your IQ.

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#117766 - 12/17/18 09:42 AM Re: National Socialism [Re: aeon6]
Creatura Noptii Offline
active member


Registered: 01/02/16
Posts: 950
1 Your country isn't even socialist. You have a government that heavily taxes your population.

2 Taxation is theft. Taking people's money without permission is always theft. Your government steals from you on a regular basis, making sure they have the majority of money first. Yours just does it a lot more than others because it knows it can get away with it.

3 Your government has final say over everything. You rely completely on them to survive. Your private sector is unstable. How the fuck do you persuade people to do anything when there is no up or down, when doctors get paid as much as the bag boy at the grocery store?!

4 You have NO FAIL SAFE. NONE. If your government sinks, you sink right on down with it if they decide to take you with 'em!

CONCLUSION: Your so called "pact" isn't one. There is a reason no other country will allow gun rights the way The United States does, because the real predicament is for the government, not the people. In spite of all our flaws, there is still a good chance for us to rebel and make serious change, and to have an ability to truly defend ourselves if necessary.

I demand bullet points. Since you won't go away, since you keep up the faggot attitude, go ahead. Make a bullet point motherfucker, do it. Tell me exactly how Socialism makes for personal dominion over your own life. I swear to fuck I've heard some bullshit before, and I don't care if you're trolling, this site was made to "put your intellectual metal to the test" and be held to that standard. If all moderation wants to say fuck all, that's OK. I'm here to show you what a fucking idiot you are because that's just one of my favorite passtimes. Especially when little cuck shit faggots like you don't want to fess up. You want to tell me my IQ sucks? Prove it! Fuck! Prove it you cocksucking little shit! Do it!

Yeah. Sure. I'm aggressive. I'm hot headed. I'm stubborn and persistent. One thing I am NOT is a complete fucking fool. I show my nasty attitude to little shits who try talking down to me who really don't know a fucking thing what they're talking about because they fucking deserve it.

Fuck you.

Fuck your arguments.

Fucking bullet points. Prove me wrong.

I've got my claws and teeth ready motherfucker, give me something I can at least sink' 'em into for a little while before I rip these ideas of yours to fucking shreds.

Bullet points.

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#117769 - 12/17/18 10:27 AM Re: National Socialism [Re: aeon6]
SIN3 Offline
stalker


Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 7204
Loc: Virginia
 Originally Posted By: aeon6
The pervasive use of propaganda by the Nazis is largely responsible for the word "propaganda" itself acquiring its present negative connotations.
I think you're confusing matters here. It already had negative connotations, it was already in use by Americans and Political Jews. That some of those Jews happen to live in Germany is moot.

 Quote:

Sort of like paparazzi. The principle of Gleichschaltung endures but racism does not. However a new dimension is unfolding after they recently took in ca. 1 million arab refugees. It's not much reflected in their news but is in the music coming out of Germany.


Racism certainly does. Racism is just a modern term for a component of our species, it's a survival mechanism that has to be nurtured over its nature. Technology also plays a role. We are less tribal than we used to be, but we certainly have tribalism that is constant. "Community" by any other name is just Tribalism.

You're calling the Asylum of foreign refugees a new dimension of xenophobia, but you're ignoring that this has always been the case when the 'New World' was seeing foreigners in droves, and an uptick with Refugees taken in from various war-torn areas more aggressivly in the early 70's.

I think you have a very myopic world view on this subject.
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#117770 - 12/17/18 11:11 PM Re: National Socialism [Re: SIN3]
aeon6 Online
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Registered: 04/16/18
Posts: 332
Loc: KÝbenhavn, Denmark
Have it your way SIN. There is no refuting you.
Enjoy your victories.

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#118896 - 03/11/19 08:58 PM Re: National Socialism [Re: Rob Taylor]
fiendish Online
active member


Registered: 02/27/16
Posts: 617
you know how germany was a mess after 1st WW. ever read 1984? about the communists? you should. I'm not even sure if people nowadays are familiar with the meaning of words like "communism" or/and "nazism". People like my mother and my father, who LIVED through Nazi occupation through 1940-1945 are gone now. With them all they've seen passed away. She told me of a story, the Nazi cook threw away food while there were children starving. her mother (my grandmother) offered to do job in the kitchen in exchange for giving away surplus food to starving kids. and taking two portions for her children.
I mean, the meaning of words is lost with the people who had the experiences. I, am still aware. but, I wonder about other people. Do you really understand what you're talking about?
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#118897 - 03/11/19 10:39 PM Re: National Socialism [Re: fiendish]
aeon6 Online
member


Registered: 04/16/18
Posts: 332
Loc: KÝbenhavn, Denmark
1984 was epitomized by the DDR: Deutsche Democratische Republic. There, even until the very end in 1989, you would contend with the intrusiveness of the Stasi. You couldn't change your mind without first closing the blinds. Weird art that came out of East Germany was definitely worth buying, perhaps more valuable than grafitti-blessed Berlin Wall chunks. Now all mere relics of an aftermath.

The memories and experiences of the deceased are not amiss. Because the calamity in question left an eternal imprint that will never escape the collective psyche. My few older family members are dying off lately. The legacy they leave is the bed of moss I sleep on.

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#118900 - 03/12/19 11:47 AM Re: National Socialism [Re: aeon6]
RJ9000 Offline
stranger


Registered: 10/03/18
Posts: 18
the USA MIC's efforts to implement a Chinese-style social credit system would make the Stasi's efforts look endearingly quaint.

The memories and experiences of deceased East Germans are merely a set of case studies to direct the improvement of social engineering.

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#118962 - 03/21/19 07:24 PM Re: National Socialism [Re: aeon6]
fiendish Online
active member


Registered: 02/27/16
Posts: 617
You see, collective memories tend to fade in a way they are made part of what it is usually thought as part of it. Complex understanding, complex thought, complex in every way. It's like asking from someone to make it clear by redoing the math. 1 plus 1 is two, give us an example. That simple.
I sense people wouldn't hesitate remaking parts of history just to feel how it was. That's the only incentive I could barely think when coming up to some ways of thinking. Which is not wrong at all considering there's a world full of references about something people do not have any experience about! At some point I might even think they wish to live what they've been told about.
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#118968 - 03/21/19 10:09 PM Re: National Socialism [Re: fiendish]
aeon6 Online
member


Registered: 04/16/18
Posts: 332
Loc: KÝbenhavn, Denmark
Forget about wishing, we *are* living what we had been told about: its aftermath, namely beyond math of 1+1 but rather calculus. It would take such a formula of society to withstand temporary belligerence of neighboring folk who are suffering a neurotic fit sociopolitically. Ambulance or hearse?
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#118970 - 03/22/19 05:42 AM Re: National Socialism [Re: aeon6]
SagittariusA Offline
stranger


Registered: 02/04/19
Posts: 9
Loc: Germany
 Originally Posted By: Czereda

If Hitler had been such a strategic genius, had a long-time vision and could predict the consequences of his actions, he wouldn't have repeated the mistake of Napoleon Bonaparte. And we know that the biggest mistake of Napoleon was attacking Russia. The harsh climate has always worked in favor of Russians.

Actually no, he and his generals agreed that it was the best time to attack the Soviet Union. The red army was in a very bad condition and Stalin had almost killed all of his generals. There were also plans on the part of the SU to attack the west which Hitler wanted to forestall. The winter was planned and just because of Napoleon they tried to reach Moscow as fast as possible. In fact the Wehrmacht was in the Suburbs of Moscow and could even see the city. Stalin had actually intended not to leave the capital like Hitler did later. Only this year's winter came earlier than expected and it was unusually hard. The attack on the SU wasn't the mistake itself, rather there were some things that went wrong during the campaign, for example the splitting up of some armies etc.

 Originally Posted By: Rob Taylor

All systems fail, but that could take a lifetime. Every system is good in theory, but all systems are exploited. The problem is, no matter what the philosophy, if a human has power, it'll eventually corrupt.

"if a human has power" that can be changed (someday)
"Poll: 25 Percent of European Adults Think Maybe Robots Should Be Calling the Shots, Not Politicians"
https://gizmodo.com/poll-25-percent-of-european-adults-think-maybe-robots-1833454667

"no matter what the philosophy"
Thats a problem too, no philosophy is perfect for ruling. In business you are using diffrent leadershipstyles as you need them.
This is what we schould use in politics too. Some systems broke because they set the philosophy over logic.
If your system is purely based on logic there should be just external factors that are threatening you.

 Originally Posted By: Creatura Noptii

2 Taxation is theft. Taking people's money without permission is always theft.


I think you give them permission as soon as you use a service offered by the government.
Now you can of course argue about the way which your money is spent.
I think the best example of this would be defence.
Of course a few thousand people can get together with their weapons and try to defend their country against another one, but it makes more sense to combine and invest in a fighter plane. The costs for reasonable defense are so enormous that you can only finance them via public.
And defense is everybody's business, because with the state almost all people are attacked at once.
The freedom to have a health insurance or not? Your decision and your problem if you get sick.
But in case of an attack by another state, you will be compulsorily protected.
As long as there are other systems that have a centralized military, you mostly can't get around it yourself.

"always" is a bad word, because there are always (yep, I know that I used the word here too) some exceptions.


What I noticed during the whole discussion... why reduce national socialism only to Hitler?
"real socialism has never been tried"
Yes, he is the most prominet example, but there were far fewer attempts than with communism/socialism.
If you want to talk seriously about it, you should see it independently of war and Hitler himself.
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#118971 - 03/22/19 10:16 AM Re: National Socialism [Re: SagittariusA]
Czereda Offline
senior member


Registered: 03/14/11
Posts: 2142
Loc: Poland
No shit. The weather often takes humans by surprise. Part of any long term planning should be preparing for the unpredictable. The lack of foresight can often be observed in politics and in casual daily life and is a primary reason why generally good ideas turn to shit.

Oh I'm so sorry I'm two hours' late. I didn't know there would be such a big traffic. At 7 a.m. I thought I would be on that road alone. Not my fault. What could I do? *shrugs*

Our law is good. We had good intentions. We just didn't predict that the bad unscrupulous people will start abusing it.

There is this saying: When the blind lead the blind...

And of course, we can discuss ideas without any references to facts and experience but it's nothing more than mental masturbation. The problem with the utopian ideologies is that they don't make allowance for shitty human nature. That's why any attempt to put them into practice always turns out to be unsuccessful.


Edited by Czereda (03/22/19 10:18 AM)
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#118972 - 03/22/19 01:25 PM Re: National Socialism [Re: Czereda]
XiaoGui17 Offline
veteran member


Registered: 10/21/09
Posts: 1362
Loc: Austin, TX
 Originally Posted By: Czereda
No shit. The weather often takes humans by surprise. Part of any long term planning should be preparing for the unpredictable. The lack of foresight can often be observed in politics and in casual daily life and is a primary reason why generally good ideas turn to shit.

Oh I'm so sorry I'm two hours' late. I didn't know there would be such a big traffic. At 7 a.m. I thought I would be on that road alone. Not my fault. What could I do? *shrugs*

Our law is good. We had good intentions. We just didn't predict that the bad unscrupulous people will start abusing it.

There is this saying: When the blind lead the blind...

And of course, we can discuss ideas without any references to facts and experience but it's nothing more than mental masturbation. The problem with the utopian ideologies is that they don't make allowance for shitty human nature. That's why any attempt to put them into practice always turns out to be unsuccessful.
I kept trying to find a few choice words to quote, but every time I read this post it's all gold.

Holy fuck guys, Russia is sometimes extra cold. Who could've predicted that?

The Allies would've been totally screwed without the Soviets. Way to ensure defeat by pissing them off.

Pearl Harbor only gets the silver in the derp Olympics that was the Axis in WWII. Valiant effort, for sure.
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#118974 - 03/22/19 07:20 PM Re: National Socialism [Re: Czereda]
SagittariusA Offline
stranger


Registered: 02/04/19
Posts: 9
Loc: Germany
 Originally Posted By: Czereda

No shit. The weather often takes humans by surprise. Part of any long term planning should be preparing for the unpredictable.


You're kind of putting it there like there's no risk in war.
Either attack the still weakened enemy or wait until he has upgraded accordingly and beats you while you are still busy in the west. And alone that it was not like Napoleon a total desaster, but at the key point was unbelievably sharp shows how well everything was prepared. In fact, the approaching winter had been the biggest worry of the german general staff at any time, but there was no other option than to push further because a standstill and the following reinforcement of the SU would have definitely led to the disaster.
Under all aspects, the best decision was to carry out the attack and continue, but some keypoint (the weather) was not as hoped.

The same could have happened with D-day or the air battle over England and it doesn't matter if it's about "odds" in the weather or against humans. In fact, many key points of the second world war as well as many other wars depended on pure chance and luck.

To counter misfortune with "preparing for the unpredictable" does not work in reality due to recourses limitation. It was simply not possible to stop one half for the winter and keep pushing forward with the other half at the same time. And only one of the options contained a acceptable chance of victory.

I think we've drifted a little too far into warfare now. If you are interested in a more detailed discussion about warfare you are welcome to send me a pm.

 Originally Posted By: Czereda

And of course, we can discuss ideas without any references to facts and experience

I think there's been a misunderstanding.
 Originally Posted By: SagittariusA

(...)independently of war and Hitler himself.

I meant the prewar economy, productivity and the other stuff that either worked or didn't and why or why not, and what can we learn from it?
When you talk about communism, you don't just talk about war or Lenin.
How effective or good/bad a system is can be said most badly in war, because that is the state of emergency and not the normal state of the system.
Therefore we should see it seperated from the war.
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#118975 - 03/23/19 03:40 PM Re: National Socialism [Re: SagittariusA]
XiaoGui17 Offline
veteran member


Registered: 10/21/09
Posts: 1362
Loc: Austin, TX
 Originally Posted By: SagittariusA
I think we've drifted a little too far into warfare now.

Fair enough. Back to the main topic...

 Originally Posted By: aeon6
Socialism in the Scandinavian flavor...

Is not "socialism." What the Nordic countries have is a robust welfare system. Many people use the term "socialism" in reference to such, but that's not what the damn word means. I'm of this obstinant mind that words have meaning and ought to be used accordingly.

On that note...
 Originally Posted By: SIN3
Labor camps for the people that refuse to work? Why would they need to in a Socialist system?

Because that's what socialism is, FFS.

 Originally Posted By: aeon6
...reflects a pre-existing social compact that is often lacking in newer nations.

It's almost as though a shared identity is vital to the rapid mobilization of a people via romanticism--hence, why OP's "Hitler, but minus the racism" premise is as infeasible as a tripod with two legs.

 Originally Posted By: Rob Taylor
Yeah ok, the guy was a nut, but he knew how to attract the masses.

So did Jim Jones. Very similar, those two, down to the chikenshit euthanasia bullet instead of sharing the agony of their compatriots' poison.

 Originally Posted By: Rob Taylor
All systems fail, but that could take a lifetime. Every system is good in theory, but all systems are exploited. The problem is, no matter what the philosophy, if a human has power, it'll eventually corrupt.

Correct. Hence, the best system is the one that relies the least on the lack of corruption. That ain't socialism.
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#119130 - 04/24/19 08:52 PM Re: National Socialism [Re: XiaoGui17]
fiendish Online
active member


Registered: 02/27/16
Posts: 617
Sometimes what we think is what happens. If what you think is that if a human has power will eventually corrupt, he will. What you want is to get power and use it the way you like. So, you think the whole world is that way. And you make it that way. What makes the change is thinking differently. Thinking what you want is the first step towards making it real. Except if you really like corruption?
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