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#118462 - 02/07/19 09:26 AM Re: Free Will vs Determinism [Re: Tom Satanic]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 4028
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
At what point does causality break down though?

I've yet to see an answer to this that doesn't boil down to either 'poof, magic' or 'quantum physics, bro' followed up by reasons they don't understand quantum physics.

Surprise me.
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#118464 - 02/07/19 11:07 AM Re: Free Will vs Determinism [Re: Tom Satanic]
Kori Houghton Offline
member


Registered: 11/23/15
Posts: 204
Loc: East Coast USA
 Originally Posted By: Tom Satanic
Everyone eats food, not everyone chooses the same food, etc.


But is choosing a food item -- or rejecting one -- always a matter of "free will"?

As a child I never wanted to drink cola. My mother thought I was just giving attitude, and I could never convince her that the stuff made me feel like I had to puke. It wasn't until I got tested for allergies in my late 20s that I discovered I was allergic to the stuff. That was a shock because I wasn't even aware that was a possibility, or that common food allergens were part of the test. And for some reason, I had no reaction to drinking Coca Cola in Mexico. Bottled there, maybe a different formula?

In my experience, many food preferences are biological, some are cultural (like having 1/4 of a supermarket aisle devoted to varieties of syrup in West Virginia -- barf!), with the rest being a preference.

Being born so soon after the end of WWII, I grew up in an era when it was medically unfashionable to even accept the existence of allergies at all, since that suggested each one of us could be biologically different from our neighbors or schoolmates, or even other members of our immediate families. All food likes/dislikes were considered choice, and a child who got sick after eating something they tried to refuse had behavioral problems from permissive parenting.
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#118467 - 02/07/19 11:52 AM Re: Free Will vs Determinism [Re: Kori Houghton]
samowens84 Online
active member


Registered: 09/29/16
Posts: 730
Often I don't trust the question itself. Even if determinism were true, there are pragmatic reasons to just ignore the question. And we do, on a daily basis. Within reason I have found that I have some control over my will have the ability to question what motive comes from what primal place. When to ignore this motive in favor of that one etc. Within reason this has granted me more survival prowess and in selfish ways for getting what I want out of life on a primal level, as well as a civilized one, whatever that distinction means to anyone else.

At what point though does this question beyond that becomes just another form of intellectual masterbation with no pragmatic value? A way to attempt to avoid being challenged by psychological bullshit tricks and just becomes a cop out? Like "afluenza." Where, allegedly, a person can be so affluent and wealthy that they are no longer legally responsible for their actions?

Or when a person has so much "reputation" on a forum, that all they have to say is "you responded" when they secretly feel out classed and outsmarted as a bullshit way to avoid an intelligent response.

People, for example, can see that SIN3 didn't actually respond to my challenge, and didn't have the balls to open herself to criticism, and instead turned it around on me.

Look at what I wrote again, Sin, and see if you can find the nerve to be vulnerable.

Perhaps you don't, and that's ok.

Perhaps it's too dangerous to put yourself out there and I understand.

This is a safe place.

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#118468 - 02/07/19 12:11 PM Re: Free Will vs Determinism [Re: Kori Houghton]
Czereda Offline
senior member


Registered: 03/14/11
Posts: 2146
Loc: Poland
Look, nobody here claims we have absolute freedom or that the events don't have their cause. What is claimed here is that we have some range of choice. You can consciously decide to be on a specific diet. You can decide whether to go to work tomorrow or not. Many people get up early and rush to the job they detest fearing they will lose it. But my cousin one day decided to stay in bed.

We can play armchair philosophers all day long but this shit just doesn't correspond to my daily experience. I often wonder what I should do, whether to choose this or that option. If everything was predetermined, I wouldn't have such dilemmas but I would be doing everything automatically. I would also be able to always predict the consequences of my actions and the behavior of other people.

But it's not that easy.
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#118470 - 02/07/19 03:54 PM Re: Free Will vs Determinism [Re: Czereda]
MindFck Offline
stranger


Registered: 01/24/19
Posts: 31
I feel this is an all or nothing scenario. We either have complete control of free will or it is a powerful illusion. I believe the illusion combined with the bias of wanting to feel in complete control of ourselves lead people to irrationally assume we must have free will. Here are a few videos, one a quick explanation from Sam Harris, one an experiment on free will and the last an overview from a high quality channel.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7t_Uyi9bNS4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjCt-L0Ph5o

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0GN4urbA_c


Edited by MindFck (02/07/19 04:04 PM)
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#118471 - 02/07/19 04:47 PM Re: Free Will vs Determinism [Re: Czereda]
Spida Offline
member


Registered: 02/19/17
Posts: 291
Loc: Maine
I didn't read everything, or the check the links, but Sam Harris and Joe Rogan(most of the time) are fairly decent.

And maybe just to expose another layer here, which I'm sure has already been done, somewhere.

It's obvious that every moment appears to present many choices, but it's impossible to know if those are viable or illusion since ultimately there is always a convergence to a single one rendering it impossible to know for certain if it could have been any other way. Although it most certainly feels as though it could have.

Hard determinism becomes transparent when subjected to the various illusions of choice, if in fact that's what they are. I honestly don't know for certain one way or the other, but I can see; feel where the cat lady is coming from.
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#118472 - 02/07/19 04:47 PM Re: Free Will vs Determinism [Re: Czereda]
SIN3 Offline
stalker


Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 7210
Loc: Virginia
You are mistaking free choice for free will. Free Will is a line of bullshit sold to you, you bought in. Is it because you were raised Catholic? I doubt it. You don't even have to be religious to believe it. It permeates all culture. Ask yourself why it's so important that you believe it.
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#118474 - 02/07/19 04:54 PM Re: Free Will vs Determinism [Re: Kori Houghton]
KFO Offline
stranger


Registered: 12/24/18
Posts: 21
 Quote:

As a child I never wanted to drink cola. My mother thought I was just giving attitude, and I could never convince her that the stuff made me feel like I had to puke.[...] I had no reaction to drinking Coca Cola in Mexico



Could it be high-fructose corn syrup? I find the taste of mexican coke to be much better than the yank brand.

Check the wiki article.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_Coke

PS: Of course, i'm sure some smart-ass will claim it's the water ;-)

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#118478 - 02/07/19 05:51 PM Re: Free Will vs Determinism [Re: SIN3]
Czereda Offline
senior member


Registered: 03/14/11
Posts: 2146
Loc: Poland
Of course. I forgot I live in a computer program. My brain is fed to the machine. All the decisions I've made were the combination of various background system processes and even that fucker, my cat, is a virtual simulation.

Thanks for opening my eyes. If it wasn't for this forum, I would never learn the truth.


Edited by Czereda (02/07/19 06:03 PM)
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#118479 - 02/07/19 06:45 PM Re: Free Will vs Determinism [Re: Czereda]
Spida Offline
member


Registered: 02/19/17
Posts: 291
Loc: Maine
The simulation theory is just gravy, but that's what biscuits are for.

You must traverse all these various layers of existence to get to the core of the matter, i.e. peel back the onion while you weep in the process.

This simulation could be some sort of intermediary cosmic program, but is more akin to lettuce leisurely traversing the digestive system.

Get the fuck out of the way, got some red meat coming through, or some other juggernaut.

Anyway, there is much filler between here and there.
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#118480 - 02/07/19 06:53 PM Re: Free Will vs Determinism [Re: Spida]
samowens84 Online
active member


Registered: 09/29/16
Posts: 730
I think sometimes, going off what you're saying, is that one can choose what gravy train to get on, once the stimulus response thing is worked out. A way to bypass entropy.
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#118481 - 02/07/19 08:57 PM Re: Free Will vs Determinism [Re: samowens84]
Tom Satanic Offline
stranger


Registered: 01/29/19
Posts: 41
@ Dred: If I get what you're saying, then yes, everything has some driver, pre existing. If your talking about will outside that then I agree, it doesn't exist.

@Sin: You can split them, choice vs will. Where, when, how WHY, are often pre-determined.

I see more of what you two are saying, and it is valid.

"Will:
n.
The mental faculty by which one deliberately chooses or decides upon a course of action"

The ability to choose, but choices are determined by existing circumstance.

I have no argument with that.


Edited by Tom Satanic (02/07/19 09:04 PM)

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#118487 - 02/08/19 05:12 AM Re: Free Will vs Determinism [Re: Czereda]
when7iseleven Offline
member


Registered: 07/11/11
Posts: 253
Loc: High Peak, UK
 Originally Posted By: Czereda
All the decisions I've made were the combination of various background system processes


& with that you have unwittingly hit the nail on the head, every decision you have ever made is exactly that.

You brain processes 400 billion bits of information per second whilst you are only aware of 2,000 of them & that is where your consciousness lies. Your awareness is the thinnest of veneers that the other 399 billion, 999 million, 998 thousand bits per second presents to you as you.

Every thought you have is the result of millions of transactions in your head that you have absolutely no awareness of based on past memories of similar situations.

We can all convince ourselves that our decisions our based on the conscious weighing up of the pros & cons of an action, but in reality the decision is made for us without any "thinking" on our part, predetermined by our subconscious self.

So do we have a conscious freedom of choice? NO
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#118491 - 02/08/19 02:20 PM Re: Free Will vs Determinism [Re: when7iseleven]
Czereda Offline
senior member


Registered: 03/14/11
Posts: 2146
Loc: Poland
The subconscious self is still the self. What is your body if not the part of you? So who the hell is making decisions for us if not ourselves?
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Crazy Cat Lady

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#118492 - 02/08/19 02:54 PM Re: Free Will vs Determinism [Re: Czereda]
KFO Offline
stranger


Registered: 12/24/18
Posts: 21
 Quote:

So who the hell is making decisions for us if not ourselves?


It's not who the hell, so much as what the hell. The physiological component through which all past experience and base instinct clash with extrinsic stimulus.

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