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#118731 - 02/22/19 09:59 PM An Urge to Impress
Czereda Offline
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10 Outrageous Ways Birds Dance to Impress Their Mates

The dance of the Sandhill Crane is iconic, and also extremely awkward. The male begins by doing all he can to attract attention—stretching his wings behind him, bending his neck backward toward his body, and even throwing grass or clumps of dirt into the air. Once he’s caught a female’s eye, the pair begin their gangly dance...

Jackson’s Widowbirds, which live in Kenya and Tanzania, keep it simple when proving their worth with a good old-fashioned jumping competition. The males, sleek in shiny black feathers and brandishing a long, luxurious tail, gather in a field. Then, they jump as high as they can and for as long as they can. The winner of this endurance test can expect attention from mottled brown females watching nearby.


And what about the losers? They might join the movement of Birds Flying Their Own Way, BFTOW in short.

Apart from the obvious male-female courtship, the whole thing makes me wonder how independent an individual can really be. Since we are tribal animals naturally inclined to make strong and stable relationships, can we really liberate ourselves from the desire to impress fellow humans and gain their approval?

The primal tribal instinct manifests itself as early as in childhood. Some try to impress their parents and teachers. Those who rebel try to impress their peers. It's a paradoxical situation where both obedience and dissent stem from the same urge to impress.

The claim that the validation comes from within is a daring statement but is it true if the self is largely influenced by other people? Is saying "I don't give a shit what anyone else thinks" ever valid or is it a feel-good delusion at best?

Does the desire to impress others imply insecurity? When does that natural inclination become pathological? Thoughts?
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#118732 - 02/23/19 12:12 AM Re: An Urge to Impress [Re: Czereda]
aeon6 Offline
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A distinction can be made between outright impressing a person and merely appeasing them. One takes more self-sacrifice (or humiliation) to achieve its behavioural and genetic imperatives and often fails to impress its target, while the other is itself already so appeased and seeks no occassion for grandeur through courtship or conflict in order to achieve an objective. These are just extremes of human life and wildlife with much in between that don't always indicate a desire to copulate.

Relating to animal habits gives us what reassurance that we are so separate from the rest of earth, I'm not sure yet, or whether human obedience and dissent stem from the same urge to impress. The level of compliance with a given norm (impressing others) manifests itself in cultures for different reasons. And in different ways: some places you cannot stand simply because they all smile too much, making you wonder who's phony.

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#118734 - 02/23/19 01:43 AM Re: An Urge to Impress [Re: aeon6]
samowens84 Offline
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Registered: 09/29/16
Posts: 437
"Since we are tribal animals naturally inclined to make strong and stable relationships, can we really liberate ourselves from the desire to impress fellow humans and gain their approval?"


The trick is getting this on your own terms.

And approval isn't always the thing. Leverage is, often a way to become socially relevant.

The art of shifting power Dynamics and such is that third way.
And to go further, in doing so to find that group where that independence is respected and interests are aligned, there is no need to sacrifice anything of yourself.

I'm surprised you haven't figured this out yet.

And if you have, then what are you whining about?

Perhaps it's just a matter of motivation and finding that proverbial kick in the ass, most likely.


Edited by samowens84 (02/23/19 01:50 AM)

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#118737 - 02/23/19 07:20 AM Re: An Urge to Impress [Re: samowens84]
Czereda Offline
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Registered: 03/14/11
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Loc: Poland
Whining? Do you even know what this word means?

This is exactly what I'm asking about. The motivation. And that is to some degree unconscious.

Let's say, I stumbled upon a few silly or not (I will leave it to your judgement) self-help articles to the tune:

"I always had to earn my parents' love. As an adult, I couldn't imagine someone could love me for being me."

"My teachers used to put me down. I spent most of my life trying to prove them wrong."

"I tried really hard to prove my worth to everyone around because I was afraid of being rejected. Now, I no longer care and I'm free."

I wonder if it is not denying the natural inclination that sounds lame. Is there something like "unconditional love" in nature? I think not. Is there anything we don't have to earn? Is the fear of losing one's status something one should despise?

Just some loose thoughts for a discussion. Besides, I loved to see those birds dancing. Fascinating.


Edited by Czereda (02/23/19 07:23 AM)
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#118738 - 02/23/19 09:08 AM Re: An Urge to Impress [Re: Czereda]
samowens84 Offline
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Registered: 09/29/16
Posts: 437
Perhaps I was a little harsh. The birds suggestion does imply that impressing a mate is hard wired. Perhaps people compensate for that with other kinds of "acceptance" that don't fulfill the biological drive and lead to compensate in unnatural ways like group acceptance and such.

The impulse to satisfy and impress a mate means also striving to meet the needs of a mate, which means, conventionally, being the best protector of potential offspring and to provide a safe place to raise them. This has social value, with winners and losers, to bring out the best in either males or females so they don't lose out in ways that can make a stronger community. Morality might even be suggested to have a biological drive being centered on the best way to protect their young.



Edited by samowens84 (02/23/19 09:36 AM)

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#118739 - 02/23/19 05:36 PM Re: An Urge to Impress [Re: Czereda]
XiaoGui17 Offline
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Registered: 10/21/09
Posts: 1229
Loc: Austin, TX
 Originally Posted By: Czereda
And what about the losers? They might join the movement of Birds Flying Their Own Way, BFTOW in short.

ROFLcopter

 Originally Posted By: Czereda
The primal tribal instinct manifests itself as early as in childhood. Some try to impress their parents and teachers. Those who rebel try to impress their peers. It's a paradoxical situation where both obedience and dissent stem from the same urge to impress.

Indeed. Non-conformity is often just defecting to conform with a different crowd.

 Originally Posted By: Czereda
The claim that the validation comes from within is a daring statement but is it true if the self is largely influenced by other people? Is saying "I don't give a shit what anyone else thinks" ever valid or is it a feel-good delusion at best?

I don't think it's honest ever to say one doesn't give a shit about what anyone else thinks. The urge is there; denying that it even exists isn't productive. It's better to be self-aware and recognize it, so that it can be managed.

People that deny the existence of their primal urges often end up expressing said urges in twisted ways. It's far healthier to lampshade the urge and tend to it.

 Originally Posted By: Czereda
When does that natural inclination become pathological? Thoughts?

Not everyone's opinion matters. Some do. The natural inclination becomes pathological when one follows it without being aware that this is what they're doing, when it's vestigial/inapplicable, when it doesn't make sense.

It can be helpful to rhetorically ask oneself, "Why should I give a shit what [particular person] thinks?" Who is particular person to me? How will their ill opinion of me impact my life?

Humanity used to live in close-knit groups where everyone knew everyone. Back then, when we were mammoth-hunters, everyone's opinion mattered. Now, we're a huge sprawling 7+ billion and the vast majority of opinions don't matter. It's helpful to remind oneself which ones don't.
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#118740 - 02/23/19 08:07 PM Re: An Urge to Impress [Re: Czereda]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3975
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
 Originally Posted By: Czereda
10 Outrageous Ways Birds Dance to Impress Their Mates

The dance of the Sandhill Crane is iconic, and also extremely awkward. The male begins by doing all he can to attract attention—stretching his wings behind him, bending his neck backward toward his body, and even throwing grass or clumps of dirt into the air. Once he’s caught a female’s eye, the pair begin their gangly dance...

Jackson’s Widowbirds, which live in Kenya and Tanzania, keep it simple when proving their worth with a good old-fashioned jumping competition. The males, sleek in shiny black feathers and brandishing a long, luxurious tail, gather in a field. Then, they jump as high as they can and for as long as they can. The winner of this endurance test can expect attention from mottled brown females watching nearby.


And what about the losers? They might join the movement of Birds Flying Their Own Way, BFTOW in short.

Apart from the obvious male-female courtship, the whole thing makes me wonder how independent an individual can really be. Since we are tribal animals naturally inclined to make strong and stable relationships, can we really liberate ourselves from the desire to impress fellow humans and gain their approval?

The primal tribal instinct manifests itself as early as in childhood. Some try to impress their parents and teachers. Those who rebel try to impress their peers. It's a paradoxical situation where both obedience and dissent stem from the same urge to impress.

The claim that the validation comes from within is a daring statement but is it true if the self is largely influenced by other people? Is saying "I don't give a shit what anyone else thinks" ever valid or is it a feel-good delusion at best?

Does the desire to impress others imply insecurity? When does that natural inclination become pathological? Thoughts?


And female spiders tend to devour their mates shortly after copulation.

As it turns out we aren't spiders or birds.
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#118742 - 02/23/19 09:14 PM Re: An Urge to Impress [Re: Dan_Dread]
aeon6 Offline
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Registered: 04/16/18
Posts: 196
Loc: København, Denmark
Some birds eat spiders, while some exotic spiders ensnare birds in elaborate webs. "Unconditional love" here seems anathema to genetic dictates but itself has been ensnared by humans and the bonds they forge with animals. To what end?
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#118743 - 02/23/19 09:23 PM Re: An Urge to Impress [Re: aeon6]
samowens84 Offline
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Registered: 09/29/16
Posts: 437
 Originally Posted By: aeon6
Some birds eat spiders, while some exotic spiders ensnare birds in elaborate webs. "Unconditional love" here seems anathema to genetic dictates but itself has been ensnared by humans and the bonds they forge with animals. To what end?


To vanity and self destruction. That's what happens when people treat love like a commodity and not with the sacred respect it deserves.

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#118744 - 02/24/19 01:55 AM Re: An Urge to Impress [Re: Dan_Dread]
Czereda Offline
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Registered: 03/14/11
Posts: 2090
Loc: Poland
 Quote:
And female spiders tend to devour their mates shortly after copulation.


I once had a pair of hamsters. After being impregnated, the female became very aggressive and started biting the male in the ass, trying to chase him away. I had to separate them.

As it turns out, both spiders and hamsters are wiser than humans since they know most males are good for nothing except for copulation.

@Sam Owens

When isn't love a commodity? When does it stop being selfish? You always exchange it for something, even if it's only the warm feeling of being virtuous.


Edited by Czereda (02/24/19 02:11 AM)
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#118745 - 02/24/19 01:57 AM Re: An Urge to Impress [Re: Czereda]
CanisMachina42 Offline
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Registered: 08/10/13
Posts: 1348
Loc: CA
 Quote:
Does the desire to impress others imply insecurity? When does that natural inclination become pathological? Thoughts?


No. Well most of the time but not always. Society is sheepish. Though there is a narcissistic caveat. If you are of the practice of needing some sort of Lady Gaga-esque fame whore recognition to accomplish your goals you are far likely to want to impress as your chosen method of stratification. That is rare though. The majority are just superficial.

I sometimes wonder if I still do things to impress.
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#118746 - 02/24/19 10:11 AM Re: An Urge to Impress [Re: Czereda]
samowens84 Offline
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Registered: 09/29/16
Posts: 437
 Originally Posted By: Czereda
 Quote:
And female spiders tend to devour their mates shortly after copulation.


I once had a pair of hamsters. After being impregnated, the female became very aggressive and started biting the male in the ass, trying to chase him away. I had to separate them.

As it turns out, both spiders and hamsters are wiser than humans since they know most males are good for nothing except for copulation.

@Sam Owens

When isn't love a commodity? When does it stop being selfish? You always exchange it for something, even if it's only the warm feeling of being virtuous.


Capitalism is a method. It isn't anything but a description of a dynamic. In fact, capitalism is nothing. Once the exchange becomes the identity instead of a loose description of dynamic relationships between people then it has the potential to become and pathological.

Why treat capitalism as anything sacred if it isn't viewed in it's proper place. Like stars couldn't exist without gravity. But what is gravity? And who gives a shit about it if it wasn't essential for stars and the universe to exist?

Capitalism is only valuable in as much as it is capable of keeping sacred relationships and beauty and balance.

If not, who gives a fuck about it? There's nothing inheritly sacred about it just because its a universal adaptor. That it applies to everything means precisely perhaps that it's nothing. Has no sacredness and no value in and of itself.

Why people treat it as a sacred cow rather than just a vehicle that gets one from a to z is laughable to me.

Once it's treated as the thing itself, you've already lost.

The danger of it is when that parasitic nothingness creeps into the identity of those who depend on it for recognition, until that person becomes just as empty and vacuous as the vehicle they're riding in.

Once you equate your value with capitalism then you'll start treating yourself with the same value capitalism has.

Which is zero. Because all it is is empty space that allows room for the identity of the earth to reach it's natural capacity. The space in and of itself is nothing and has no value. Why identify with empty space? That's the danger.

That's also the problem with communism. They think the space must be the problem, instead of taking responsibility to fill the space with beauty and love, they would rather just make the shit and ugliness more compact.

I was thinking of what people mean when satanists don't believe in Satan. That it's an atheistic ideology. And yet I've found many while saying so do believe in a literal Satan.

So what does this mean? Is it that Satanists are just a bunch of two faced hypocrites out to dupe people? I'm sure that's what it is to some people who profess to be "satanic." I personally view it with more nuance.
For example, in one of Ann Rice's novels, I believe it is the first Vampire Lestat chronicle, Lestat described Atheism as a kind of innocence. And so in a world of shit, to be purposely naive is an effective means for identifying hypocrisy and preserving one's innocence. A method for keeping pollution out. Believing in love and preserving one's light goes against the grain in a world that seems to sometimes place a higher value on shit. Much of the shit has been kept in existence by often hypocritical religions that advocate being "good" and "kind" while preserving crap and hurting others for no reason.

The value of the devil is as an archetype who values his light as being contingent on never bowing before beings that are lesser than him or her. In certain religions then such a being would have been cast out so that he or she could earn the right to that light by serving humanity and lifting their vibration also so that their envy wouldn't be a threat to him or her.
Such a person or "devil" doesn't like being in hell and wants to escape from it, but uses it's infernal fires and darkness to make sure heaven could never forget him or her so that the relationship between mutual salvation becomes clear. Not believing in creating an inferno, but threatening heaven with it to create more balance and to include him or her in the better world to come.

To bring it to the mundane, this myth is analogous with someone who might claim to be a "communist." This person might know better that communism is crap, but also recognizes that capitalism didn't leave room for her, and so threatened the world with communism as leverage so that capitalism can give her the room and recognition she deserves. Like if they felt they deserves the wealth and recognition for being a world famous scientist but wasn't given that well deserved honor the devil of communism be ideal leverage to shake that honor to the ground and the room she deserves.

Like "this shit stinks and is ugly and disgusting. I know! Let's make it so nobody can move until we're all neck deep in bullshit with no way out!"

The most retarded approach to adult real world problems. That's what communism is to me. Nothing but criticisms with no legit solution to actually make things better.

Capitalism without vision is dangerous and dehumanizing, but communism is even worse because it takes away the space necessary to allow for humanity and vision to exist!

Your will and love is everything. Capitalism is nothing but the road these things travel on. Many roads can lead many places.

Capitalism is the commodity, everything else is priceless.

While capitalism might be necessary. It certainly isn't sufficient.

And it certainly isn't worth a damn in and of itself.

The value of capitalism is only the room it gives for people to have freedom. Once it becomes just another enslaving factor, then it loses the value it has in terms of giving people the space to be the best version of themselves.


Edited by samowens84 (02/24/19 11:10 AM)

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#118774 - 02/26/19 10:41 PM Re: An Urge to Impress [Re: Dan_Dread]
XiaoGui17 Offline
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Registered: 10/21/09
Posts: 1229
Loc: Austin, TX
 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread
And female spiders tend to devour their mates shortly after copulation.
That's actually pretty rare, and usually in cases of extreme famine. Humans, as well, have been known to resort to cannibalism when starving.

Many forms of behavior in animals have parallels in human behavior, and we're sure a lot closer to other warm-blooded vertebrates than a spider.
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#118775 - 02/27/19 12:02 AM Re: An Urge to Impress [Re: XiaoGui17]
aeon6 Offline
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Humans have rather indulged in cannibalism at times without resorting to it for vital purposes. The common factor is not hunger, but desperation on two extremes of that spectrum. Some did it to impress/ prove solidarity with group etc. Hunger can be overcome when presented with a plate of flesh, putrid and coagulated with maggots and necrosis. You'll presumably die of hunger but at least not out of repulsive gagging. So, does the female spider devour mate for fun? Non-vertebrates aren't sentient by common definition but operate under such predictable behaviours that it shouldn't escape notice. And let's admit that not all humans are sentient.
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#118785 - 02/27/19 08:39 PM Re: An Urge to Impress [Re: aeon6]
XiaoGui17 Offline
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Registered: 10/21/09
Posts: 1229
Loc: Austin, TX
 Originally Posted By: aeon6
You'll presumably die of hunger but at least not out of repulsive gagging.
Projectile vomit, however, is not gonna do you any favors as far as not starving is concerned.

 Originally Posted By: aeon6
Humans have rather indulged in cannibalism at times without resorting to it for vital purposes . . . Some did it to impress/ prove solidarity with group etc.
We've come full circle!
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