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#118731 - 02/22/19 09:59 PM An Urge to Impress
Czereda Offline
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10 Outrageous Ways Birds Dance to Impress Their Mates

The dance of the Sandhill Crane is iconic, and also extremely awkward. The male begins by doing all he can to attract attention—stretching his wings behind him, bending his neck backward toward his body, and even throwing grass or clumps of dirt into the air. Once he’s caught a female’s eye, the pair begin their gangly dance...

Jackson’s Widowbirds, which live in Kenya and Tanzania, keep it simple when proving their worth with a good old-fashioned jumping competition. The males, sleek in shiny black feathers and brandishing a long, luxurious tail, gather in a field. Then, they jump as high as they can and for as long as they can. The winner of this endurance test can expect attention from mottled brown females watching nearby.


And what about the losers? They might join the movement of Birds Flying Their Own Way, BFTOW in short.

Apart from the obvious male-female courtship, the whole thing makes me wonder how independent an individual can really be. Since we are tribal animals naturally inclined to make strong and stable relationships, can we really liberate ourselves from the desire to impress fellow humans and gain their approval?

The primal tribal instinct manifests itself as early as in childhood. Some try to impress their parents and teachers. Those who rebel try to impress their peers. It's a paradoxical situation where both obedience and dissent stem from the same urge to impress.

The claim that the validation comes from within is a daring statement but is it true if the self is largely influenced by other people? Is saying "I don't give a shit what anyone else thinks" ever valid or is it a feel-good delusion at best?

Does the desire to impress others imply insecurity? When does that natural inclination become pathological? Thoughts?
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#118732 - 02/23/19 12:12 AM Re: An Urge to Impress [Re: Czereda]
aeon6 Offline
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A distinction can be made between outright impressing a person and merely appeasing them. One takes more self-sacrifice (or humiliation) to achieve its behavioural and genetic imperatives and often fails to impress its target, while the other is itself already so appeased and seeks no occassion for grandeur through courtship or conflict in order to achieve an objective. These are just extremes of human life and wildlife with much in between that don't always indicate a desire to copulate.

Relating to animal habits gives us what reassurance that we are so separate from the rest of earth, I'm not sure yet, or whether human obedience and dissent stem from the same urge to impress. The level of compliance with a given norm (impressing others) manifests itself in cultures for different reasons. And in different ways: some places you cannot stand simply because they all smile too much, making you wonder who's phony.

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#118734 - 02/23/19 01:43 AM Re: An Urge to Impress [Re: aeon6]
samowens84 Offline
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"Since we are tribal animals naturally inclined to make strong and stable relationships, can we really liberate ourselves from the desire to impress fellow humans and gain their approval?"


The trick is getting this on your own terms.

And approval isn't always the thing. Leverage is, often a way to become socially relevant.

The art of shifting power Dynamics and such is that third way.
And to go further, in doing so to find that group where that independence is respected and interests are aligned, there is no need to sacrifice anything of yourself.

I'm surprised you haven't figured this out yet.

And if you have, then what are you whining about?

Perhaps it's just a matter of motivation and finding that proverbial kick in the ass, most likely.


Edited by samowens84 (02/23/19 01:50 AM)

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#118737 - 02/23/19 07:20 AM Re: An Urge to Impress [Re: samowens84]
Czereda Offline
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Whining? Do you even know what this word means?

This is exactly what I'm asking about. The motivation. And that is to some degree unconscious.

Let's say, I stumbled upon a few silly or not (I will leave it to your judgement) self-help articles to the tune:

"I always had to earn my parents' love. As an adult, I couldn't imagine someone could love me for being me."

"My teachers used to put me down. I spent most of my life trying to prove them wrong."

"I tried really hard to prove my worth to everyone around because I was afraid of being rejected. Now, I no longer care and I'm free."

I wonder if it is not denying the natural inclination that sounds lame. Is there something like "unconditional love" in nature? I think not. Is there anything we don't have to earn? Is the fear of losing one's status something one should despise?

Just some loose thoughts for a discussion. Besides, I loved to see those birds dancing. Fascinating.


Edited by Czereda (02/23/19 07:23 AM)
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#118738 - 02/23/19 09:08 AM Re: An Urge to Impress [Re: Czereda]
samowens84 Offline
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Perhaps I was a little harsh. The birds suggestion does imply that impressing a mate is hard wired. Perhaps people compensate for that with other kinds of "acceptance" that don't fulfill the biological drive and lead to compensate in unnatural ways like group acceptance and such.

The impulse to satisfy and impress a mate means also striving to meet the needs of a mate, which means, conventionally, being the best protector of potential offspring and to provide a safe place to raise them. This has social value, with winners and losers, to bring out the best in either males or females so they don't lose out in ways that can make a stronger community. Morality might even be suggested to have a biological drive being centered on the best way to protect their young.



Edited by samowens84 (02/23/19 09:36 AM)

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#118739 - 02/23/19 05:36 PM Re: An Urge to Impress [Re: Czereda]
XiaoGui17 Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Czereda
And what about the losers? They might join the movement of Birds Flying Their Own Way, BFTOW in short.

ROFLcopter

 Originally Posted By: Czereda
The primal tribal instinct manifests itself as early as in childhood. Some try to impress their parents and teachers. Those who rebel try to impress their peers. It's a paradoxical situation where both obedience and dissent stem from the same urge to impress.

Indeed. Non-conformity is often just defecting to conform with a different crowd.

 Originally Posted By: Czereda
The claim that the validation comes from within is a daring statement but is it true if the self is largely influenced by other people? Is saying "I don't give a shit what anyone else thinks" ever valid or is it a feel-good delusion at best?

I don't think it's honest ever to say one doesn't give a shit about what anyone else thinks. The urge is there; denying that it even exists isn't productive. It's better to be self-aware and recognize it, so that it can be managed.

People that deny the existence of their primal urges often end up expressing said urges in twisted ways. It's far healthier to lampshade the urge and tend to it.

 Originally Posted By: Czereda
When does that natural inclination become pathological? Thoughts?

Not everyone's opinion matters. Some do. The natural inclination becomes pathological when one follows it without being aware that this is what they're doing, when it's vestigial/inapplicable, when it doesn't make sense.

It can be helpful to rhetorically ask oneself, "Why should I give a shit what [particular person] thinks?" Who is particular person to me? How will their ill opinion of me impact my life?

Humanity used to live in close-knit groups where everyone knew everyone. Back then, when we were mammoth-hunters, everyone's opinion mattered. Now, we're a huge sprawling 7+ billion and the vast majority of opinions don't matter. It's helpful to remind oneself which ones don't.
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#118740 - 02/23/19 08:07 PM Re: An Urge to Impress [Re: Czereda]
Dan_Dread Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Czereda
10 Outrageous Ways Birds Dance to Impress Their Mates

The dance of the Sandhill Crane is iconic, and also extremely awkward. The male begins by doing all he can to attract attention—stretching his wings behind him, bending his neck backward toward his body, and even throwing grass or clumps of dirt into the air. Once he’s caught a female’s eye, the pair begin their gangly dance...

Jackson’s Widowbirds, which live in Kenya and Tanzania, keep it simple when proving their worth with a good old-fashioned jumping competition. The males, sleek in shiny black feathers and brandishing a long, luxurious tail, gather in a field. Then, they jump as high as they can and for as long as they can. The winner of this endurance test can expect attention from mottled brown females watching nearby.


And what about the losers? They might join the movement of Birds Flying Their Own Way, BFTOW in short.

Apart from the obvious male-female courtship, the whole thing makes me wonder how independent an individual can really be. Since we are tribal animals naturally inclined to make strong and stable relationships, can we really liberate ourselves from the desire to impress fellow humans and gain their approval?

The primal tribal instinct manifests itself as early as in childhood. Some try to impress their parents and teachers. Those who rebel try to impress their peers. It's a paradoxical situation where both obedience and dissent stem from the same urge to impress.

The claim that the validation comes from within is a daring statement but is it true if the self is largely influenced by other people? Is saying "I don't give a shit what anyone else thinks" ever valid or is it a feel-good delusion at best?

Does the desire to impress others imply insecurity? When does that natural inclination become pathological? Thoughts?


And female spiders tend to devour their mates shortly after copulation.

As it turns out we aren't spiders or birds.
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#118742 - 02/23/19 09:14 PM Re: An Urge to Impress [Re: Dan_Dread]
aeon6 Offline
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Some birds eat spiders, while some exotic spiders ensnare birds in elaborate webs. "Unconditional love" here seems anathema to genetic dictates but itself has been ensnared by humans and the bonds they forge with animals. To what end?
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#118743 - 02/23/19 09:23 PM Re: An Urge to Impress [Re: aeon6]
samowens84 Offline
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 Originally Posted By: aeon6
Some birds eat spiders, while some exotic spiders ensnare birds in elaborate webs. "Unconditional love" here seems anathema to genetic dictates but itself has been ensnared by humans and the bonds they forge with animals. To what end?


To vanity and self destruction. That's what happens when people treat love like a commodity and not with the sacred respect it deserves.

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#118744 - 02/24/19 01:55 AM Re: An Urge to Impress [Re: Dan_Dread]
Czereda Offline
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 Quote:
And female spiders tend to devour their mates shortly after copulation.


I once had a pair of hamsters. After being impregnated, the female became very aggressive and started biting the male in the ass, trying to chase him away. I had to separate them.

As it turns out, both spiders and hamsters are wiser than humans since they know most males are good for nothing except for copulation.

@Sam Owens

When isn't love a commodity? When does it stop being selfish? You always exchange it for something, even if it's only the warm feeling of being virtuous.


Edited by Czereda (02/24/19 02:11 AM)
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#118745 - 02/24/19 01:57 AM Re: An Urge to Impress [Re: Czereda]
CanisMachina42 Offline
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 Quote:
Does the desire to impress others imply insecurity? When does that natural inclination become pathological? Thoughts?


No. Well most of the time but not always. Society is sheepish. Though there is a narcissistic caveat. If you are of the practice of needing some sort of Lady Gaga-esque fame whore recognition to accomplish your goals you are far likely to want to impress as your chosen method of stratification. That is rare though. The majority are just superficial.

I sometimes wonder if I still do things to impress.
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#118746 - 02/24/19 10:11 AM Re: An Urge to Impress [Re: Czereda]
samowens84 Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Czereda
 Quote:
And female spiders tend to devour their mates shortly after copulation.


I once had a pair of hamsters. After being impregnated, the female became very aggressive and started biting the male in the ass, trying to chase him away. I had to separate them.

As it turns out, both spiders and hamsters are wiser than humans since they know most males are good for nothing except for copulation.

@Sam Owens

When isn't love a commodity? When does it stop being selfish? You always exchange it for something, even if it's only the warm feeling of being virtuous.


Capitalism is a method. It isn't anything but a description of a dynamic. In fact, capitalism is nothing. Once the exchange becomes the identity instead of a loose description of dynamic relationships between people then it has the potential to become and pathological.

Why treat capitalism as anything sacred if it isn't viewed in it's proper place. Like stars couldn't exist without gravity. But what is gravity? And who gives a shit about it if it wasn't essential for stars and the universe to exist?

Capitalism is only valuable in as much as it is capable of keeping sacred relationships and beauty and balance.

If not, who gives a fuck about it? There's nothing inheritly sacred about it just because its a universal adaptor. That it applies to everything means precisely perhaps that it's nothing. Has no sacredness and no value in and of itself.

Why people treat it as a sacred cow rather than just a vehicle that gets one from a to z is laughable to me.

Once it's treated as the thing itself, you've already lost.

The danger of it is when that parasitic nothingness creeps into the identity of those who depend on it for recognition, until that person becomes just as empty and vacuous as the vehicle they're riding in.

Once you equate your value with capitalism then you'll start treating yourself with the same value capitalism has.

Which is zero. Because all it is is empty space that allows room for the identity of the earth to reach it's natural capacity. The space in and of itself is nothing and has no value. Why identify with empty space? That's the danger.

That's also the problem with communism. They think the space must be the problem, instead of taking responsibility to fill the space with beauty and love, they would rather just make the shit and ugliness more compact.

I was thinking of what people mean when satanists don't believe in Satan. That it's an atheistic ideology. And yet I've found many while saying so do believe in a literal Satan.

So what does this mean? Is it that Satanists are just a bunch of two faced hypocrites out to dupe people? I'm sure that's what it is to some people who profess to be "satanic." I personally view it with more nuance.
For example, in one of Ann Rice's novels, I believe it is the first Vampire Lestat chronicle, Lestat described Atheism as a kind of innocence. And so in a world of shit, to be purposely naive is an effective means for identifying hypocrisy and preserving one's innocence. A method for keeping pollution out. Believing in love and preserving one's light goes against the grain in a world that seems to sometimes place a higher value on shit. Much of the shit has been kept in existence by often hypocritical religions that advocate being "good" and "kind" while preserving crap and hurting others for no reason.

The value of the devil is as an archetype who values his light as being contingent on never bowing before beings that are lesser than him or her. In certain religions then such a being would have been cast out so that he or she could earn the right to that light by serving humanity and lifting their vibration also so that their envy wouldn't be a threat to him or her.
Such a person or "devil" doesn't like being in hell and wants to escape from it, but uses it's infernal fires and darkness to make sure heaven could never forget him or her so that the relationship between mutual salvation becomes clear. Not believing in creating an inferno, but threatening heaven with it to create more balance and to include him or her in the better world to come.

To bring it to the mundane, this myth is analogous with someone who might claim to be a "communist." This person might know better that communism is crap, but also recognizes that capitalism didn't leave room for her, and so threatened the world with communism as leverage so that capitalism can give her the room and recognition she deserves. Like if they felt they deserves the wealth and recognition for being a world famous scientist but wasn't given that well deserved honor the devil of communism be ideal leverage to shake that honor to the ground and the room she deserves.

Like "this shit stinks and is ugly and disgusting. I know! Let's make it so nobody can move until we're all neck deep in bullshit with no way out!"

The most retarded approach to adult real world problems. That's what communism is to me. Nothing but criticisms with no legit solution to actually make things better.

Capitalism without vision is dangerous and dehumanizing, but communism is even worse because it takes away the space necessary to allow for humanity and vision to exist!

Your will and love is everything. Capitalism is nothing but the road these things travel on. Many roads can lead many places.

Capitalism is the commodity, everything else is priceless.

While capitalism might be necessary. It certainly isn't sufficient.

And it certainly isn't worth a damn in and of itself.

The value of capitalism is only the room it gives for people to have freedom. Once it becomes just another enslaving factor, then it loses the value it has in terms of giving people the space to be the best version of themselves.


Edited by samowens84 (02/24/19 11:10 AM)

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#118774 - 02/26/19 10:41 PM Re: An Urge to Impress [Re: Dan_Dread]
XiaoGui17 Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread
And female spiders tend to devour their mates shortly after copulation.
That's actually pretty rare, and usually in cases of extreme famine. Humans, as well, have been known to resort to cannibalism when starving.

Many forms of behavior in animals have parallels in human behavior, and we're sure a lot closer to other warm-blooded vertebrates than a spider.
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#118775 - 02/27/19 12:02 AM Re: An Urge to Impress [Re: XiaoGui17]
aeon6 Offline
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Humans have rather indulged in cannibalism at times without resorting to it for vital purposes. The common factor is not hunger, but desperation on two extremes of that spectrum. Some did it to impress/ prove solidarity with group etc. Hunger can be overcome when presented with a plate of flesh, putrid and coagulated with maggots and necrosis. You'll presumably die of hunger but at least not out of repulsive gagging. So, does the female spider devour mate for fun? Non-vertebrates aren't sentient by common definition but operate under such predictable behaviours that it shouldn't escape notice. And let's admit that not all humans are sentient.
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#118785 - 02/27/19 08:39 PM Re: An Urge to Impress [Re: aeon6]
XiaoGui17 Offline
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 Originally Posted By: aeon6
You'll presumably die of hunger but at least not out of repulsive gagging.
Projectile vomit, however, is not gonna do you any favors as far as not starving is concerned.

 Originally Posted By: aeon6
Humans have rather indulged in cannibalism at times without resorting to it for vital purposes . . . Some did it to impress/ prove solidarity with group etc.
We've come full circle!
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#118787 - 02/28/19 12:29 AM Re: An Urge to Impress [Re: Czereda]
Dimitri Offline
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Sex.

That's the short answer.
The longer answer is "sexual dynamics".

That's the baseline.
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#118800 - 03/01/19 09:39 AM Re: An Urge to Impress [Re: Dimitri]
when7iseleven Offline
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No, we are hardwired for REWARD, it is the baseline motive for everything that we do.

Based on the sum of our experiences we all have different needs for rewards & therefore do different things to attain them, but it is the reward that drives our actions.

Other than myself there are very few people I would want to "impress", & those that I might have nothing at all to do with my sexual desire.
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#118804 - 03/01/19 10:30 PM Re: An Urge to Impress [Re: when7iseleven]
CanisMachina42 Offline
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 Quote:
No, we are hardwired for REWARD, it is the baseline motive for everything that we do.


No, YOU may be hardwired for reward, I couldn't disagree more. In fact, I find it one of the most uncomfortable things to endure in certain circumstances.

Anecdotal argument:

 I once pissed off this chick (when this place was at its apex) and to get back at me she decided to get everyone at work to subtly try to get me to "admit i was gay".  Half correct or not, beneficial or not, I did not want to. Especially under that subtle agitating bullshit method. Unfortunately, I said what they wanted to.

And it was like a switch flipped.

The thing that in gay culture is supposed to be the weight off the shoulders ended up:

"OH, so now you motherfuckers are going stop all your annoying little bullshit and be nice? Go fuck yourselves."

It was so infuriating and uncomfortable I retracted and started fucking this stripper chick I met.

The reward is null if it isn't, as they say, "in accordance with one's will".

The obligatory tie-in:

That said,  these O9A "initiates" are allegedly driven by a reward, that may come via 'breaking' to an external pressure. The myth of the one that breaks to the original gangster's demands and basks in their adulation and their own newfound bitchdom.

There are two schematics for wiring. The ironic applications (in the most shakespearean sense of that) will never go out of style. 
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#118805 - 03/01/19 10:44 PM Re: An Urge to Impress [Re: when7iseleven]
aeon6 Offline
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It confirms Pavlov and his canine bells.
We salivate at the slightest notion of a prize, but tragically so if we rely on "approval" to impress. Afterall sometimes the prize is just a stuffed animal, because the ethos of give-and-take is eroding generally. The reward will not always be proportionate to your imprint/intent, in which case it is a human dud worthy of no further waste. After awhile, is the desire to impress really such a vital "urge"?

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#118815 - 03/03/19 09:24 AM Re: An Urge to Impress [Re: when7iseleven]
Dimitri Offline
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The reward is a detail.
The gold medal is but a bit of piece of metal.

The true reward is to stand out.
To be the dominant one.
That makes others fall beneath you.
And makes you more attractive.

The end game is always sex.
Unless you believe that shit isn't hardwired in your genes.
And you belief yourself to be deviant from nature.

A total retard.
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#118817 - 03/03/19 01:33 PM Re: An Urge to Impress [Re: Dimitri]
samowens84 Offline
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Sex is a powerful drive.

It isn't the only one.

I for one feel it is more the engine rather than the motive.

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#118828 - 03/04/19 05:27 AM Re: An Urge to Impress [Re: Dimitri]
when7iseleven Offline
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As usual straight over your pretty little head.

The gold medal is a mere bauble, it is not the reward; even the winning of it is not the reward.

The reward is how it makes the winner feel.

Ask a medal winner where their medal is & most of them will not know, but they will be able to describe in minute detail how it felt to win it.

Even you little synopsis of what is the true reward is wrong; the reward is how whatever those attributes your list brings you makes you feel.

What's actually "hardwired" in to genes is breeding; how the pleasure of sex makes you feel is the reward......you getting it yet?

We are the dominant species on this planet because of reward.
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#118832 - 03/04/19 01:14 PM Re: An Urge to Impress [Re: when7iseleven]
Dimitri Offline
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You might read again.
Just saying.

Before you make an ass out of yourself.
Again.
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#118842 - 03/05/19 11:48 AM Re: An Urge to Impress [Re: Dimitri]
when7iseleven Offline
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I do get it, you're desperate to fill DD's boots but sadly for you for a man to walk in another man's shoes they at least need to be the same foot size.......assume the same can be said for boots.

Quite frankly you're just not up to scratch, Dan does it so much better than you.
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#118853 - 03/06/19 09:12 AM Re: An Urge to Impress [Re: when7iseleven]
Dimitri Offline
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No surprise some shit like Brexit is happening... and heading straight to the worst-case scenario.

If you can point out where my made point is something else WITHOUT some free interpretation of your fantasy.

Go right head.
Otherwise: shut up and go to a dentist.
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#118886 - 03/11/19 08:59 AM Re: An Urge to Impress [Re: Dimitri]
when7iseleven Offline
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A subject for another post but worst scenario for whom??

As someone who has had four years of dealing with the European Commission on Article 11 of the Council Regulation & Article 2 of the Commision Regulation I can tell you that the European Union is a broken enterprise run by technocrats who have never spent a day in the real world.

They are only interested in their own self agrandisement with companies that will give them a popular headline, the recent case against Google being a case in point; but something that won't grab the attention even if it is legally & morally correct will get only short shrift.........if you call four years short.

Have you ever been to a EU Parliamentary seesion??...if you want to see how broken the whole thing is then I suggest you do.

Back to the REWARD bit & I agree, I wasn't exactly clear so here goes:

Every & I mean every descision we make, sorry, every decision we think we make comes as a result of millions of transactions within our subconscious, weighing up the pros & cons of the possible outcomes of the decision & weighing up the alternative actions or decisions. This is derived from the outcomes of previously encountered similar situations.

Any single decision is based on what will give the best result for us (brain/self/organism) at that particular time; what will give us the greatest REWARD. We may subsequently come to the conclusion that was the wrong decision but will convince ourselves that the motive for making it was actually different from the motive that drove us to making the decision in the first place.

Every time we recall a memory the memory is rewritten with the chance that it is so with errors; the new memory becomes "the" memory helping us jusify any of our previous actions or decisions. Even these adjustments in the memory are made on the basis of REWARD; it is better to think of why you made that decision the way you think of it now, rather than the real reason you made it when you made it.

It's all about what is the REWARD now.

Why are we the most dominant species on the planet?? Because of the way our subconscious makes decisions; by the way our brain constantly looks for alternative actions or decisions, by its constant quetioning...........the stone age did not end due to a lack of stones.......it ended because a subconscious asked "What would be the REWARD if I....................??
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#118901 - 03/12/19 08:15 PM Re: An Urge to Impress [Re: when7iseleven]
samowens84 Offline
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You know, I enjoy a lot of these discussions. Exploring the nature of the universe is fun and fills me with wonder.

However, much of it I just regard as intellectual masterbation, especially when it comes to being "sinister."

My whole life I'd found early on that institutions are useless. They always wanted to try to cozy up to you to take away your humanity while preying on my feelings of isolation and frustration. And I mean early. At a certain point I regarded the whole machine as a worthless joke, and the only one capable of deciding that enough trauma for myself was going to be me, because sure as shit no one else was going to put on the breaks.

My quest was to use that anger to reclaim my own humanity and help others do the same.

I suspect that this was a blind spot for a lot of people who were trying to do the same. I'm geared towards protecting my humanity so much so that I became adept at understanding where my own personal human nature starts and stops. Where my humanness might be being violated and when it is being respected, so that "people pleasing" was never my issue. How I learned to be able to say yes or no without any false guilt that, to some degree, kept my karma clean.

Hiding became my thing, to protect my humanity against intrusive forces, even those who felt they had the best of intentions. What looked like "childishness" to some was to keep others confused and at bay while using false trails to confirm other people's intentions who I regarded as potentially hostile.

Institutions don't offer one their humanity, and you won't find it in Islam, Christianity, civil rights, or any other religions, Satanism being one of them.

What I find personally droll or amusing, as mean as it may sound to some, are otherwise other misfits, who, looking for some place to claim their humanity, hadn't quite learned their lesson on that yet.

No truth matters if it doesn't give you your humanity. That's the fundamental nature of wisdom, and for me that came from blind luck. That to some degree my place in society was so undermined that finding my humanity became the most important ambition for me, and my complete distrust of all institutions and my understanding of where my humanity ended and began put me powerfully in my center that I always knew where the knife was coming from.

Some called making myself personally invisible foolish, but it put me in my power and allowed me to be kind and loving to those who might consider themselves my enemies and still protect myself from them and use that understanding to put negative intentions in check. It is the only thing in the world worth having, and all other blessings come from that.

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#118908 - 03/13/19 04:38 PM Re: An Urge to Impress [Re: samowens84]
Czereda Offline
senior member


Registered: 03/14/11
Posts: 2117
Loc: Poland
Well... unless you live on some lonely island, you just have to deal with various institutions whether you want it or not. Some of them are quite useful.

Tribalism IS the part of everyone's humanity. That concerns also those who protest on every possible occasion that they are individuals.
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Crazy Cat Lady

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#118909 - 03/13/19 06:28 PM Re: An Urge to Impress [Re: Czereda]
samowens84 Offline
active member


Registered: 09/29/16
Posts: 644
Engaging with them might be inevitable, but giving away one's humanity is optional. If one doesn't have something to offer, then perhaps losing yourself is the only offering a person might have. However, if one has something others desire, like the opportunity to regain one's humanity, then one has the opportunity to gain leverage over the institution, because you have something they want, otherwise they wouldn't exist. If you're wise and powerful then one can regain one's sense of power while engaging with the institution without giving oneself away.

That third way. Don't feel bad if you hadn't thought about it. You're not all knowing ;\)

Or perhaps you weren't beaten into a dissociative state where all you had was your humanity.

That fucking male privilege again lol

The difference between me and some is that I understood from an earlier age that I had no friends unless I had leverage, and so that gave me a unique ability to see human nature for what it is, while some are given the luxury to pretend that they have friends and so get foolish by getting drunk on "truth." My perspective anyway.

I don't feel that makes someone a bad person though. Sometimes in my life I've had to do the best I could with what I knew until someone showed me a better way. I admit, I don't forgive betrayal very easily but in my lonely existence I had learned to expect it and adapt to love others anyway with what I have. Any "betrayal" is more like "of course they did that." However my attitude is I'm sometimes capable of inspiring others to be better. I begin with the assumption that most people are betraying dissolutioned fuck heads and then go about being my best self anyway knowing I'm powerful enough to deflexr any negative intentions that may come my way. I may on occasion be dissolutioned with others, but never with myself. And the universe always seems to reward me for giving unconditional love by dissociating from the approval of others and trusting the universe instead.

Everything is connected to the universe, and it's how I've learned to personally escape depending on the recognition of human institutions because they are just as beholden to the universe as anyone else.

The center of the universe seems to be love in my experience, and all others are beholden to that truth. Even the institutions you seem to insist are "inescapable."

If one decides to depend on a lover or an institution instead of that, you've already lost.


Edited by samowens84 (03/13/19 07:02 PM)

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#118910 - 03/13/19 08:42 PM Re: An Urge to Impress [Re: Czereda]
samowens84 Offline
active member


Registered: 09/29/16
Posts: 644
 Originally Posted By: Czereda
Well... unless you live on some lonely island, you just have to deal with various institutions whether you want it or not. Some of them are quite useful.

Tribalism IS the part of everyone's humanity. That concerns also those who protest on every possible occasion that they are individuals.


I know that a part of someone like you might wait for me to break down in a fit of tears and sentimentality to admit defeat and make you feel like you were right all along, but I'm not going to do that. The reason being is that's not in your interests or anyone elses interests to do so. Human nature is such that people would rather be right then have a good life a lot of times. Personally I would rather people have a good life and hate me for being right than to enable suffering and be loved for it.

The latter is to me the moral failing of a people pleaser who may be more determined to be loved than to do the right thing. The danger being they'd let their families perish and die as long as they love them for it. And that makes me sad, because I know some people are better than that, but haven't escaped that bad habit yet, possibly.

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#118911 - 03/13/19 10:12 PM Re: An Urge to Impress [Re: samowens84]
aeon6 Offline
member


Registered: 04/16/18
Posts: 266
Loc: København, Denmark
 Quote:
Everything is connected to the universe, and it's how I've learned to personally escape depending on the recognition of human institutions because they are just as beholden to the universe as anyone else.


I won't question your cosmology. But how/why do you aspire/propose to escape the universe? It seems you are anchoring yourself ever more deeply with every magna carta.

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#118912 - 03/13/19 10:23 PM Re: An Urge to Impress [Re: aeon6]
samowens84 Offline
active member


Registered: 09/29/16
Posts: 644

To put it more plainly, to escape bad karma, and to get rid of spiritual dirt while staying with love as best I can while maintaining balance. Perhaps I framed it that way because for a long time it felt like an escape plan because for a long time I was treated like shit and so much of my work has some personal relevance. Nothing wrong with that. To bring passion and change a cause must always begin with something personal, I find. At least for me.

So I guess you caught some of my personal emotional language through the text.

Bravo.


Edited by samowens84 (03/13/19 10:29 PM)

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#118916 - 03/14/19 07:49 AM Re: An Urge to Impress [Re: samowens84]
Czereda Offline
senior member


Registered: 03/14/11
Posts: 2117
Loc: Poland
It's quite presumptuous of you to think my intention was to make you "break down in a fit of tears and sentimentality to admit defeat." I mean... get real. If you were treated like shit for the large part of your life, I'm really sorry for you but there is no need to project your paranoid assumptions on everyone.

I think I'm right to assume you attended some school, work somewhere, keep money in some bank, use health services etc. These are all institutions. Like everyone else, you're part of an organized society. You need other people and it's good if other people need you. Pleasing others isn't inherently right or wrong. It all boils down to ROI. It either serves you or not.

Unconditional love is bullshit in my humble opinion. Nobody is going to love you for nothing. Even if all they get from your presence is feeling good and warm or virtuous, that's still "something."
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Anna Czereda
Crazy Cat Lady

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#118920 - 03/15/19 02:20 AM Re: An Urge to Impress [Re: when7iseleven]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3378
Unless you made it to the top, you'll never understand how difficult it can be to make a decision for the best of all.
The more people that need to be managed, the more complex everything becomes. To the mudane it seems "broken", to the more developed it is a complex ongoing debate to search for a workable middle ground.

Brexit on that account is the small spoiled retarded child having a hissy fit because others can also play with the toys he has. Running away and blissfully forgetting that most of his luxury have root in the same source.


Your argument is vague as best.
Define "reward".

Besides, "dominant species"? I disagree.
Most influential to the biosphere, yes.
Dominant? No. There's still a lot out there that can wipe the smile of humanities face.
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#118944 - 03/18/19 05:04 AM Re: An Urge to Impress [Re: Dimitri]
when7iseleven Offline
member


Registered: 07/11/11
Posts: 253
Loc: High Peak, UK
 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
The more people that need to be managed, the more complex everything becomes. To the mudane it seems "broken", to the more developed it is a complex ongoing debate to search for a workable middle ground.



If I had written those words round about now I would be reading the words retard & total, though not necessarily in that order; but I didn't write them, you did.

The "mundane" believe government is working on their behalf, is working with their best interests at heart; the mundane believe the populist statements trotted out by government; the mundane beleive the government knows best; the mundane vote for a particular form of government because their dad's did.

The "more developed" know that the primary motives of any government are power & self preservation; the "more developed" know a goverment will say pretty much anything to secure the above; the "more developed" know that the only goverment to support is the one that is most benficial to them at any one particular time.

At the current stage in my life for me this means a government that has low taxation, decentralisation & deregulation as it's tenents. More importantly one that is as least intrusive in to my life as possible.

When I do retire will more than likely change as I will want a goverment to tax others more heavily so I will get a higher pension & the health service will be better funded to look after me.

Your "more developed" synopsis of Brexit is hardly worth comment. Nothing more than what I would expect to read as a headline in a populist redtop.

The positive outcome of any brain activity is the reward. Forget the veneer you consider as yourself, I'm meaning the underlying sub-conscious transactions where all the decions, which are all based on previous experiences, are made.

I am not sying that there is nothing out there that could "wipe the smile of humanities face" but that does not mean that we are not the most dominant species. The two are not nutually exclusive.

PS......wrong use of semi-colon but as I hate bullet points I think it's excusable.
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