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#13431 - 10/25/08 11:50 AM Re: I think I finally decided my political affiliation [Re: Morgan]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3810
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
 Quote:

Hmm, so pay as needed for teachers and doctors.

I could see the world becoming stupidier, and more stratified every generation.

Besides stupider not being an actual word, I see no problem with this. One of the main problems I see with society as it is now is that the useless wastrels get carried along on the backs of the worthy.
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The teachers and doctors would come to be quite valuable. At least doctors, I could see a community getting pissed if their only doctor wants to pack up and leave the area.

Then said community would have to make an offer to entice the doctor to stay. What stops doctors from picking up and leaving small communities now anyway?
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Atlas Shrugged is a book you should read.
I think it gets to the bones of some of the issues that you are not fully seeing the long term ramifications of.

Like what? You are the first person I have ever seen take ayn rand as an economist...

 Quote:

People tend to be on average, stupid, lazy, mean, and looking to do the least amount of work for the most amount of money.
If you think that your world would change that, I believe you are sadly mistaken.

Yes, and in a raw capitalism type situation the coasters and coat tail riders would be forced to either sink or swim. It is the current system that rewards laziness, and hence that is where your problem lies.
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#13497 - 10/27/08 01:46 AM Re: I think I finally decided my political affiliation [Re: Dan_Dread]
ceruleansteel Offline
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Registered: 10/15/07
Posts: 784
Loc: Behind you
Several topics in one neat little post, and forgive me if I am revisiting anything that has been beaten to death...

First off, we don't elect our president, the Electoral College does. I feel like a broken record saying this. The popular vote was designed as a sort of guideline to let them know what we're thinking, but the reality is that they don't have to vote the way we tell them to, so in essense, all votes are useless.

Next on the agenda: government in general. I live in a town where there are a lot of factories and therefor a lot of unions. Unions were great when we needed them, but now they are becoming part of the problem and not part of the solution by convincing some jackoff who does nothing but turn screws all day to strike so he can get another dollar added to his already insanely high wage. So instead of giving them an extra buck per hour, the factories are moving to mexico so they can pay even less and not get taxed on what they earn. Congress is the same way. If you go to http://www.thomas.gov and read what they actually do the 4 days a year that they work, you will see that for the most part, they don't do shit. They are like overpaid union reps and have all but outlived their usefulness. They actually spent our tax dollars on several occasions doing nothing but renaming post offices. They write up a lot of opinions that don't mean shit, too...like the several official declarations that they are angry with Iran. They don't actually do shit, they just make it official that they aren't pleased.

As an aside on this, Obama and McCain have two of the three worst voting records...and by "worst voting record" I mean that they did not vote at all on more issues than any of their cronies. So how can they say that they are responsible enough to run the country when they aren't even responsible enough to do the bullshit job they have now?

We need a deconstruction of government. No apologies to homeland security because they are part of the problem as well, but it's a different problem that is not related to the topic at hand. I think that the popular vote should be the only votes that elect the president, but I also think that people should have to pass an American Government Competency Exam before they are given the right to vote. Anyone who cannot even say how our government operates, who their reps are, or how our country is politically/governmentally structured should not have the right to take a stab at "change". You shouldn't be handed a tool to fix a machine you know nothing about.

Also, we are NOT a two-party system any more than we are a democracy. We are a democratic republic, hence the phrase "and to the republic, for which it stands". If we were a two-party system, Bob Barr would be wasting a lot of time, effort and money trying to get onto a ballot that only allowed for republicans and democrats. By the way, the way it is determined whether or not a candidate gets on the ballot is whether or not he has enough signatures supporting his desire to be on the ballot. So if you don't see a name that you were expecting to see when you go to pull the lever, it's because your lazy ass and the lazy asses of others were not hunting down that candidates petition to sign so that he could get on the ballot.

All of america is apathetic and I personally would like to see someone get into office who has an idea what the constitution says and a plan to cut out about half of the suit-and-ties our tax dollars support. Oh, shredding a few lawbooks would be nice, too. We're overlawed, if you ask me, and tediously overlawed at that. Some things should be left to common sense so that we can maintain a certain status quo as to who gets to breed (in other words, let the idiots weed themselves out instead of making warning label laws).

I vote libertarian, even though I bitch and moan the whole time I'm casting a vote (because of the aforementioned Electoral College). They are almost as anti-current-government as I am. That gives me the warm fuzzies...and who could vote against warm fuzzies? It would be nice if half the gov. simply ceased to be one day. It would be even nicer, IMO, if that meant that everyone had to start thinking for themselves. All hell would indeed break loose...at least until the really panicky ones killed each other off.

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#13523 - 10/27/08 02:03 PM Re: I think I finally decided my political affiliation [Re: ceruleansteel]
BlacKAcRE66 Offline
pledge


Registered: 10/22/08
Posts: 59
Loc: California
I am currently registered as an Independent, I can feel your frustration casting your vote...The thing that really gets me ticked is that all these Green Party people and Libertarian or Independents for that matter are all talking this good stuff about reform and getting more constitutional, but they all have chumps running for the Presidency who look like they've had a few..Beers,marijuana joints,or Martinis.

How in the hell am I suppose to vote for someone who looks like he could have played the role of Sasquatch on Harry and the Hendersons? The last election the independent candidate was some guy who had this long beard and long ass hair and wore a shirt that was a size too small with a couple of pens in his pocket like some rocket engineer.

If someone is serious about making a difference they should look like they want the job bad enough...If Barack Obama wins I hope that Bill Clinton will do some Foreign relations work on his behalf, cause we're in a World of shit... I will read more of your post later...Pretty huge bits of data for me.
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#13550 - 10/27/08 09:43 PM Re: I think I finally decided my political affiliation [Re: BlacKAcRE66]
ceruleansteel Offline
active member


Registered: 10/15/07
Posts: 784
Loc: Behind you
Ha! Yeah, I am almost convinced that I'm a decendent of Tolstoy...

I agree with the third parties having goofy looking candidates, but it kicks my ass that the race for leader of this country boils down to a fashion show.

I apoligize because this doesn't happen often, but I'm too drunk to continue this reply.

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#13552 - 10/28/08 05:41 AM Re: I think I finally decided my political affiliation [Re: ceruleansteel]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
I agree with people needing knowledge of politics before they are allowed to vote. I've been saying it for years here; people ignorant upon either how politics works, or what the actual parties stand for, should not be allowed to vote. It's as if you'd let a construction worker perform an open-heart surgery.
I live in a fairly complicated country when it comes to politics, and even when the effect of my vote matters little to me due to my work situation, I do prefer to know why and what I vote for.
We have electronic voting and although I see the potential weakness of all things electronic, it opens a massive opportunity to do a pre-vote quiz. It should be fairly possible to construct some sort of multiple-choice test to see if voters have the necessary political knowledge to actually vote. If you don't reach the required % you’ll get a message: FAILURE, you suck; now go home and educate yourself before the NEXT election.

It would at least get rid of those voting coz mommy and daddy voted like that or coz the guy/girl looks really cool. Or because he/she looks like them. Idiots should never ever be granted the right to make a decisive choice that affects other people. And anyone actually voting without having a clue is nothing but an idiot.

I also agree that government should limit its control to a degree. What or what not can be discussed but I do find it elementary that a government has no business with what happens inside people's bedroom. Unless you're shagging daughters, babies or sheep.

D.

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#13561 - 10/28/08 08:15 AM Re: I think I finally decided my political affiliation [Re: Diavolo]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3810
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Democracy is political christianity. By this I mean it is a system to placate people into believing something that isn't true, as a means to control peoples behaviors.
Voting gives the illusion that we, as individuals, have some say in running the show. We don't.It only takes that one redneck hick to vote opposite you to nullify any effect you may have had.
This is ESPECIALLY true if one holds minority views, as most of US(Satanists) do. Does anyone really believe there is a christian politician (most of them) that cares about my interests? About yours?
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#13562 - 10/28/08 08:44 AM Re: I think I finally decided my political affiliation [Re: Dan_Dread]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
I agree democracy is an illusion to a degree.
It's fairly possible to have a true democratic system with the current technology but it would also have major flaws. While one is constructed in such a manner that people vote for representatives that (should) vote what they (the people) want, the other would allow/require every numbnut to vote on every proposal.

Now personally I don't know too many christian politicians. I live in a democratic (true) multi-party political system which on a scale of stupid to smart ranks a bit higher than the USA's political system. Not that we're great but there are more advantages to ours.
Of course not all decided there is what I would agree upon but do I feel oppressed?

Certainly not; I do have minority views at some levels but can't I express them? I sure can and am not getting arrested or waterboarded for it. Should they care about my interests? No, why should they? I'm a minority; as long as they allow me to have my interests, they are doing ok.

D.

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#13564 - 10/28/08 09:00 AM Re: I think I finally decided my political affiliation [Re: Diavolo]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3810
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
And as long as your interests and theirs don't conflict, you are just fine and dandy. But what happens if they do?
You know quite well!

 Quote:

While one is constructed in such a manner that people vote for representatives that (should) vote what they (the people) want, the other would allow/require every numbnut to vote on every proposal.

Both of these options are horrible in my opinion. Firstly, there is no 'the people'. There is a collection of individuals. There is no overarching entity for which there can be a 'common good' (another myth).

Ultimately, every person is only representing his or her own interests. It is possible to represent someones interests only to the point they conflict with your own. Nobody 'represents' me. The best even an 'honest politician' (oxymoron) can hope to do is please the majority on any given issue, but even this is highly problematic because even in this best case scenario you are left with a tyranny of the majority. I don't think I need to spell out why THAT is bad!

The second option you give, with every joe blow getting a vote on what color the curtains in city hall will be, is at least a more honest form of tyranny; but obviously so cumbersome as to be completely untenable. People would have to spend a good part of each day voting on trivial matters like the aforementioned one.
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#13565 - 10/28/08 09:36 AM Re: I think I finally decided my political affiliation [Re: Dan_Dread]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
What is conflicting interests? I am free to make every decision I want or act any way I want. I can make money, live on the street, rape murder kill steal or be a jolly nice guy and mind my own business. Nothing, absolutely nothing, is stopping me from following my needs or urges. Nothing besides myself.

There only is a price to be paid and not being a nancy about it. It does not differ if I'd live in a democracy, theocracy, tyranny or even anarchy. I can do whatever I want anywhere and I will always have to decide if the price is right for me.

So what are conflicting interests? There are none, there is only adaptation. If I don't like to pay taxes, I work around it. If I don't like my community, I move. If I don't like working for the man, I do something else.

Putting the blame on a system for the restrictions it has on me, is underestimating my own capabilities.

I don't mind chatting theory but in reality, this system suits me just as good as any other.

D.

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#13566 - 10/28/08 09:52 AM Re: I think I finally decided my political affiliation [Re: Diavolo]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3810
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Firstly let me say that I don't expect anything to change within my lifetime. (assuming I die at a normal human age ;\) ) I advocate this way of thinking only because i agree with it, not because I think I can make it happen. These forays are strictly an indulgence for me

With that said, I agree with most of what you wrote. Ultimately we are free to do anything we can do before we are stopped, but that isn't really what I was getting at.

'Conflicting interests' is anything you do which can get you locked up or worse. You can't lock them up, but they can you. It only works in one direction, which is the heart of the problem.

 Quote:

Putting the blame on a system for the restrictions it has on me, is underestimating my own capabilities.

This statement seems to almost border on Stockholm syndrome. Of course the one putting the restrictions on another is responsible for those restrictions! How could you argue otherwise?
I understand that you, as I do, probably thrive in spite of the system. That doesn't make the system right. I think we as a society can do MUCH better, just as the peasants under the thumb of monarchy once did. Democracy was a good and necessary step in the development of human society, but do you honestly believe it is the final destination?
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#13567 - 10/28/08 10:16 AM Re: I think I finally decided my political affiliation [Re: Dan_Dread]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
I know we're mostly talking theory and both don't expect changes.

Still, even in theory I am not too bothered about conflicting interests. There will always be conflicting interests, it has been decided -not consciously of course- by nature. There is no equality. I can find it incorrect that the government can lock me up but I can't lock them up, but it's nothing but an advanced form of Joe kicking Jim's butt because he is stronger.
And if it isn't because he's stronger, it's because he's smarter. Or just because he's a raving madman that doesn't have problems with crossing the border.

That inequality will always exist no matter how anything is structured. That's my biggest criticism of anarchy. It doesn't solve anything, it either stalls the problem or shifts it around. Or, what I think is more likely, makes it florish.

I don't think I'm suffering the Stockholm syndrome. I prefer to regard the system as some sort of illusion. It is there to make people act in a certain manner but it exists only in our heads. Of course there are rules and laws and whatever but like I said, we do not need to follow anything we don't want.

Do I think democracy is the final destination? Of course not. But what a better system is depends solely on for whom the system is developed. You might construct one for the individual but the fact that I don't agree already shows the first flaw in it.

D.

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#13568 - 10/28/08 10:26 AM Re: I think I finally decided my political affiliation [Re: Diavolo]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3810
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Well the system I am advocating is 'no system' so to speak.

On equality, social darwinism, stratification, etc, well I am ALL FOR IT :).

I think a true market anarchy is the purest form of meritocracy and the closest thing to our animal nature. I abhore socialism, social safety nets, and any sort of coddling for the weak. I think if someone can not cut their own path through the jungle , or be lucky enough to have someone WILLINGLY AND GLADLY coddle them along, they should be left to die.

I also think that a lot of people are simply born too stupid or incapable of surviving in such a system, and smile when I think of the natural eugenics that would take place.

This, just to stamp out any thought in your head that I may be championing the notion of equality or fairness ;\)
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#13569 - 10/28/08 10:54 AM Re: I think I finally decided my political affiliation [Re: Dan_Dread]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
I know social darwinism sounds great but to be realistically about it for a second, it doesn't always work that well for us.

I'm rather familiar with the societal outcasts nowadays. My partner works in the sector where each day the finest examples of our human race are visiting; junks, alcoholics, homeless. Women with kids that have been beaten to crap. Parents robbed by their children and ending up on the streets, the lesser gifted being exploited by others and left to rot. I hear the stories when I'm at hers and witness some now and then when I pick her up there.
I know, a loser is born every day and she knows that if I'd work there, I'd bitchslap sense into half of them. I admit, empathy isn't my strongest side.

But I'm realistic enough to realize that avoiding a problem isn't going to make it go away. The more people there are, the more there are in the lower ranges of that group, and when applying social darwnism, it does not make them sit under a tree and die. So there is a growing problem that might start to bite others in the butt after a while. That too is social darwinism.

We do know that survival is one of the biggest drives in nature and most people will try to survive no matter what.
So no matter what, you need to find a solution for this. If it isn't voluntary, it should be forced. You either create some conditions to make them survive or you dig a really big hole for them to fit in.

Relying on nature only solving it will only make it come back and haunt you.

D.

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#13720 - 11/01/08 06:34 AM Re: I think I finally decided my political affiliation [Re: Diavolo]
ZephyrGirl Offline
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Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 706
Loc: Adelaide Australia
I have to agree on that Diavolo.

Last year a galah (bird) was born near our house that never got it's full and proper feathers. It got them on it's head and wings and tail, but it's body is still full of baby down.

It's not a very attractive galah, actually we've nicknamed it Mouldy because it looks so moth eaten, however, it has survived it's first year of life, somewhat of an outcast from the flock and even quite a cold winter. Because it's wings have full feathers it can fly, which must be the minimum it could manage with I would think, but the fact of the matter is, not only the beautiful and strong survive in nature. Sometimes the weak manage to survive as well, even if only for a while. Who then is going to be the one to make the decisions about who gets to be the survivors and who doesn't out of the lower life forms?

I think you are dead right about not being able to just ignore the weak and stupid. It won't make them just go away.

I'm against the big hole idea though, because who exactly is going to be the one to make the decision on who gets to be in the whole. No one is going to go there willingly, like you said, the survival instinct is strong in some of the weakest stupidest of people. and usually people want to find the EASIEST way to survive. That laziness is the mother of invention really. Trying to find easier ways to do things to the point that the laziest of people have lazied themselves to obesity and bad health. Yet we are living longer than ever, and we are about to hit the first real baby boomers hitting retirement soon and there being more people in retirement than actually doing the work.

The issues are so big, and so complex that I'm not sure there is ANY ONE ANSWER to the problem. After all, nothing in this world is one size fits all, so why would this be any different.

Wouldn't it be nice if we could all go, lets make the largest countries democracies, the mid size ones communistic and the smallest ones anarchistic and go live where you want and see which ones turns out the best!

I'm pretty sure I'd stay in the democracy too. Sure it's not a perfect system and there has got to be some changes coming or it has to evolve as is the nature of everything, but it certainly is far from the worse system that we could have.

At least in a democracy you have the CHOICE of dropping out! Or working your guts out and making the most of it. I do hope that there is another option out there, even if it's just for my kids.

Zeph
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#13724 - 11/01/08 01:34 PM Re: I think I finally decided my political affiliation [Re: ZephyrGirl]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3810
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
 Quote:

At least in a democracy you have the CHOICE of dropping out!

Only if you count having to leave as a choice. There is no viable option of staying where you are and simply not participating.

In that a democracy is no different than a communism or a dictatorship.

It really boils down to this;If you recognize the people that ultimately make your rules for you, tell you what is and isn't ok for you as your legitimate masters, that's fine. Have at it.
Myself, I do not.
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