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#23994 - 05/02/09 01:40 AM Re: I think I finally decided my political affilia [Re: miriam]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3890
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Well this is drifting off topic, but still I feel this is an important point. In order to be 'corrupt' , by the very definition of the word, something has to be other than it is supposed to be. By saying people are corrupt you are also saying there is a certain way people are supposed to be. Who get's to be the final arbiter of this?

This line of thinking, ultimately, only goes anywhere when an arbiter is added, which makes it clearly identifiable as judeo-christian memetics. If you are living in any western society you are exposed to them. Do you not watch TV? Read? Talk to anybody? It is literally everywhere. And 'genetics' really has less than nothing to do with anything.
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#23997 - 05/02/09 02:10 AM Re: I think I finally decided my political affilia [Re: Dan_Dread]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
I don't think it got much to do with judeo-christian memetics. Of course the word corrupt does imply "fallen from grace" in certain settings but it can be seen as "not as is prefered" too. If I uphold democracy, I can see a totalitarian idea or act as corrupt, while an anarchist does the same. His view of the State and those promoting it, is one of corruptness. Who is the final arbiter in this? We of course, like in everything.

D.

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#24006 - 05/02/09 04:41 AM Re: I think I finally decided my political affilia [Re: miriam]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3139
 Quote:
60-something percent said yes. so not all people would commit crimes, of course, but i think more psychos might come out of the woodwork. there is a higher rate of violent crime in wartime, when the government is busy attending to things other than civilian safety.

Miriam,.. it's just a mere study.. And I'm 100% convinced that if such an event occurs that the percentage will have a huge difference. (It might be higher, it might be lower.. I think it will be lower for various reasons. Then again, who knows? That part can't be studied..)

If the study used percentages, it means there are statistics and from what I learned: statistics are multi-interpretable and depend on the people you have chosen. In other words, the study can't be used on a global scale, only in the environment where the participants have been chosen.

You should also make a difference between rape and murder. It is easier to use violence then to rape.. psychological borders you see... I prefer the scientific approach and treat each subject as something individual. (Then again,.. it depends on where you live and what your background is..).


And that's also one of the reasons I'm not interested in politics.. the problem is bigger then most people think and almost everything in politics is based on statistics.
And statistics can only be right under certain conditions but NEVER on a global scale.


Edited by Dimitri (05/02/09 04:44 AM)
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#24007 - 05/02/09 05:00 AM Re: I think I finally decided my political affilia [Re: Dimitri]
miriam Offline
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Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 90
Loc: Seattle, WA
you've got a point about statistics.

but how is rape not violent?
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#24009 - 05/02/09 05:59 AM Re: I think I finally decided my political affilia [Re: miriam]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3139
I didn't say rape isn't violent.
Only that it shouldn't be put next to murder...
Rape is sexual inclined while murder is more pure physically.
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#24015 - 05/02/09 09:03 AM Re: I think I finally decided my political affilia [Re: Dimitri]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
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I think one can't get more physically than rape. Maybe you wanted to express something else but mixed up some words. Rape is often about power, if it was only about sex, rapists would visit hookers, pay the cash needed and get it over with.

The "would you rape?" question with statistics does appear in this video- which strangely enough does work now- and the answer there is 35%. I am pretty sure they know about statistics, most did go to uni too.

D.


Edited by Diavolo (05/02/09 09:05 AM)

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#24021 - 05/02/09 11:47 AM Re: I think I finally decided my political affilia [Re: Dimitri]
fakepropht Moderator Offline
Big Slick
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Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 990
Loc: Texas
 Quote:
I didn't say rape isn't violent.
Only that it shouldn't be put next to murder...
Rape is sexual inclined while murder is more pure physically.


Wrong. In the majority of rape cases it has nothing to do with sexual achievement. It is about power, force, brutallity, and dominance. What would a 30yo rapist find sexually appealing about a 70yo lady? These rapists are the same guys that stole your lunch money in 3rd grade and went on to lock you in a locker in high school. They are common bullies, looking for a way to get a release by overpowering someone. Most victims are weak, have low self appeal, came across as vulnerable. Not hot, not sexy, not "perfect 10s that you can't have unless you force yourself on them". Date rape being an exception. Some rapists never get to an orgasm. It's all about the force. In the prison system, kid touchers and rapists rank at the bottom of the barrel. Get locked up for one of these offenses and rest assured you will find yourself getting more than one beat down.

I was lucky enough to take a college class taught by one of the top FBI agents at the time. Rape was one subject we explored in depth. He presented statistics, data, and profiles to support the basis that rape is about dominance, power, and force. We did case studies of serial rapists. If you think it's about getting a nut sexually, you're wrong. It's about getting a nut through force.
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#24029 - 05/02/09 04:23 PM Re: I think I finally decided my political affilia [Re: fakepropht]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
 Quote:
If you think it's about getting a nut sexually, you're wrong. It's about getting a nut through force.


AND a rapist "getting their nut" is secondary. There have been many rapes when there has been no penile insertion, but forced insertion with an non-sexual object. The act is called "object rape." The rapist might use a dildo, a hairbrush, even a knife, but never penetrate the woman (or man) with any body part whatsoever. It's not about sex. It's about power, it's about control and often it's about humiliation of one's victim and their dehumanization to create the illusion of one's superiority.
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#24049 - 05/03/09 12:20 AM Re: I think I finally decided my political affilia [Re: Jake999]
fakepropht Moderator Offline
Big Slick
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Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 990
Loc: Texas
Right. I was trying to convey that in most cases rape has nothing to do with sexual gratification. You brought up a point I forgot to add. A small minority of cases are actually sexually centered. In most cases it is all about power, domination, humiliation, and demeaning the victim.
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#24060 - 05/03/09 06:20 AM Re: I think I finally decided my political affilia [Re: fakepropht]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3139
I agree with Fp and Jake..

but Diavolo:
 Quote:
I am pretty sure they know about statistics, most did go to uni too.

Understanding statistics is really no big deal, even calculating them.
The only problem with statistics is that it only describes a part of the population (a very small part..), it also is subjective to different factors (mood, geographical, religion, background, influences,..) and most of the time, the options to choose from are limited. On a group of 10 000 man you simply can't ask a question with 2 possible answers to choose from. There will always be a considerable percentage of people who want to indicate something else, but simply can't since it's not one of the possible things to choose from.

It is a big mistake to assume that if statistics tell so, it will be.. The only way to be sure is to test it..


Edited by Dimitri (05/03/09 06:21 AM)
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#26305 - 06/26/09 03:10 PM Re: I think I finally decided my political affilia [Re: Diavolo]
Maxim D Offline
stranger


Registered: 06/21/09
Posts: 20
Loc: Portland, Oregon, United State...
I believe that laws are just made by the smart to keep the stupid out of their way. Example: It's the 4th of july, and some dumb kid blows his hand off with certain kind of firework (firework X), therefore firework X must be banned, whereas less dangerous (less fun) fireworks Y and Z are still legal.
The majority feels sympathy for patient X, and fears for their children's safety- they buy instead the less dangerous firework Y.

I, however still don't get to play with firework X even though it's my favorite kind.

I'd like to live in a world where this doesn't happen, but I'm not holding my breath.
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#26306 - 06/26/09 03:43 PM Re: I think I finally decided my political affilia [Re: Maxim D]
ta2zz Offline
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Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 1552
Loc: Connecticut

 Originally Posted By: Maxim D
I, however still don't get to play with firework X even though it's my favorite kind.

Wow that was a whole bunch of XYZ going on there. I know you didnít ask me shit personally and Diavolo will probably give you a better answer, but I'm feeling chatty..

Lawmakers need to protect the stupids from themselves. In doing so they protect them from all of us in a way. I am a law-abiding tax-paying citizen why should my tax dollars go to support a fool who has no hands due to playing with fireworks.

In turn how can you pay taxes if you cannot work due to blowing your hands off or not wearing your seatbelt? See the lawmakers need to protect you, for them not to do so is just risking a paycheck after all.

 Originally Posted By: Maxim D
I'd like to live in a world where this doesn't happen, but I'm not holding my breath.

I live in the world of reality where money and having the right connection can assure you almost anything you want. Here in CT all fireworks were illegal until a few years ago. That never stopped me from buying these things I wanted from the trunks of cars. It also never stopped me from blasting off some fireworks in the past (I wasnít even out of high school yet) that put some local towns shows to shame.

The times I was caught honesty worked in my favor. I may have been told to calm things down a bit but never had anything confiscated or have been arrested for illegal fireworks. I was also never stupid enough to light an m-80 or ľ stick in my hand. But alas I am responsible enough to know that if I blew my hand off well then it was my own damn stupid fault.

So your using fireworks as an example seems pretty weak as the law had no effect at least on me. Now if you want to talk about things that the stupids ruin for us all that we cannot easily change, like the fact that my cars rear door windows will not roll all the way down.

That we can do but I think we may have strayed off topic. This has little to do with political affiliations.

~T~
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#26350 - 06/27/09 02:45 PM Re: I think I finally decided my political affilia [Re: ta2zz]
Maxim D Offline
stranger


Registered: 06/21/09
Posts: 20
Loc: Portland, Oregon, United State...
Here, we have WA state right across the river, but it's still a pain in the ass. I guess my point is that I'd like to vote for people who don't have an agenda which oversteps into personal lives, or my fun, i.e. I am very upset with the current administration for banning flavored tobacco, for it supposedly being "meant for kids."

Adults like flavors too, obviously. One good thing is that since they're getting rid of the "lights' and whatnot, I got a pack of marlboro mediums for just $3.65...

Anyway, back to my point. I'm a registered libertarian myself, and I believe there is much damage to un-do as far as laws go. The two-party system is f**ked, as it provides two horrid choices of how the government should be run. I don't have respect for many democrats, due to their stance on things like healthcare and gun control. The notion that stupid people should be protected, I personally find grossly offensive.

Thus the reason for my fireworks analogy.
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#26355 - 06/27/09 04:05 PM Re: I think I finally decided my political affilia [Re: Maxim D]
ta2zz Offline
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Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 1552
Loc: Connecticut

 Originally Posted By: Maxim D
The notion that stupid people should be protected, I personally find grossly offensive.

Personally I find anyone who feels the need to protect me or wants to help me for no good reason pretty disgusting. They are either seriously wanting to make a change (to what they see as better) or they have some hidden agenda.

I myself hold no political affiliation, voting in this country is just another means of control. It makes you feel as if you can in some way create change, even though to are only getting a choice between A and B. To not be able to see through this faÁade seems quite natural for most.

They taught me in 4th grade about the electoral vote, Iíve seen through the bullshit since then. I suggest you read up on it if you are not aware of what the electoral vote is. Basically if A is meant to be in office then all the public votes for B are nullified by an electoral vote for A. Since all your personal vote is doing is allowing more or less electoral votes for your state, your personal vote is essentially meaningless.

I can understand the need to protect stupids as a dead stupid pays no tax, canít you also see this? I also find it amusing when many here would like a culling on the stupid side of humanity. What many forget is if there is nothing left but chiefs who is left to lead? Who then does the most menial work?

Again I only responded because Iím chatty. I pay little attention to things that matter little to me. Politics in no way matters to me. To steal a phrase from an old signature of Asmedious and of course modify it a bit and make it my own.

I am Satanist, as such when the wind blows in a different direction I will simply adjust my sail to continue in the direction I choose. If I just donít decide to change the direction of the wind that is.

Later

~T~
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#26357 - 06/27/09 04:37 PM Re: I think I finally decided my political affilia [Re: Maxim D]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
I don't think laws are entirely made to keep the stupid out of the way of the smart. Back in the day when we formed our early societies, we pretty fast realized that although the wolf and bear or lion are pretty nasty creatures, they are not as nasty nor unpredictable as our fellow man.

So laws were made to protect the (human) prey from the (human) predators and it evolved from there. Currently there is this tendency to protect the stupid too, as if life is precious under all conditions but it can be argued that it is not the life of the stupid that is so important as the lives of the people being ruined by other's stupidity.

But while all those laws are in effect, you have to realize laws mean nothing at the level of a desire to do something. Laws only imply that you will suffer some consequences if you are caught. If not, laws have no power. If something is illegal, you can be sure it is supplied. Illegality only affects the price to obtain. So technically you live in world where anything goes, no matter what political doctrine the government imposes or what taboos are affecting the social environment. The only difference with a truly free world (which is utopian) is that the desire is more costly at some levels and can have grave consequences.

Ta2zz said it most really, just wanted to add my thing because I tend to like the subject.

D.

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