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#26822 - 07/05/09 03:55 AM Re: I think I finally decided my political affiliation [Re: ZephyrGirl]
Impius Offline
pledge


Registered: 09/08/08
Posts: 60
Loc: Lille, France
Meritocracy is Satanism's utopia. But I don't think it can ever happen either. The best we could do is enhance democracy so it approaches justice the more it can. But it's going to take aaages, and we need the right people at the head of the states to begin with (even if Obama looks like a good start to me).

As for political affiliation, I personally never felt like I needed one. If I have to vote for something, I read every candidate's proposals and opinions about actuality, and then I pick one, not giving a damn about whether he's de gauche or de droite (which I think would more-or-less correspond to democrat and republican for you US fellows).
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In the end everyone dies...

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#26824 - 07/05/09 05:07 AM Re: I think I finally decided my political affiliation [Re: Impius]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
Agreed. Satanism's utopian concept would be a meritocracy. Unfortunately, the feeling amongst the majority of people today is that they merit whatever the hell they desire simply by virtue of managing to exist. Witness the apprentice of any skill complaining because they don't make as much money as the next guy, and to hell with seniority, skill levels or training! I am, therefore I deserve.

A true meritocracy would scare the hell out of most people. If they were paid according to their contribution, rather than the ability to show up for work and make it to lunch without killing themselves, we'd have an endless supply of slave labor.
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#26916 - 07/07/09 03:08 PM Re: I think I finally decided my political affiliation [Re: Impius]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
I agree that at this moment meritocracy is utopian but the main problem why it is utopian is because most people consider the road to meritocracy one that has to be aligned with democracy. I think we have to stop considering democracy as a reasonable option. Democracy leads nowhere simply because in a democracy the people have a too important role. And that is what fucks up democracy and it is what fucks up potential meritocracy.

Like Jake said, people seem to feel entitled to everything just because of them being. That idea is so egalitarian it can't but degenerate everything.

A meritocracy depends upon the intention of the State, its direction and a good approach towards the problems. At some levels, it implies treating citizens like children again; give the good kid cookies and take them away when necessary. Not unlike what is done today except now they too often are giving the cookies to the fat and lazy.

D.

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#26936 - 07/08/09 10:31 AM Re: I think I finally decided my political affiliation [Re: Diavolo]
Impius Offline
pledge


Registered: 09/08/08
Posts: 60
Loc: Lille, France
Meritocracy is an utopia because it's never ever to be happening. Do you really think democracy will end someday...? I don't think so. If democracy disappears from our civilization, it'll be because some dude has taken it over, and we'll find ourselves in totalitarism.

Too many people wouldn't agree with such a political system. They can't conceive the goodness of it in their minds. Too much socialist stenches inside \:D
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#26938 - 07/08/09 01:03 PM Re: I think I finally decided my political affiliation [Re: Impius]
Dionysus Offline
lurker


Registered: 07/04/09
Posts: 2
Loc: Florida
I thought I'd mention something that occured some years back. I was enticed to register to vote by a girlfriend at the time. I didn't want to, but did so anyways. "Every vote counts, etc. etc." I was 18 and it was something to do. Anyways, I was given the chance to declare my party affiliation. There were boxes for Democratic, Republican, Independant, and Communist parties. Feeling mischievous, I decided to check the Communist box simply for the absurdity of the fact that I could actually do so. I got my voter registration card in the mail not long after, and "they" - whoever that is... changed it to Democratic party. I have not seen the Communist option since then as I was in Connecticut and this was for the election beween Gore & Bush that caused all the chaos over the votes in Florida. But someone changed my affiliation to Democratic. (I state again that I am not affiliated with Communism, but I just wanted to see if I got a card registering me as a party member.

(Anyways, Bush won. I was in D.C for the on the day of his innauguration and there was quite a large protest party.)

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#26941 - 07/08/09 02:16 PM Re: I think I finally decided my political affiliation [Re: Impius]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Why do you think democracy will be everlasting? How old is democracy in our Western Civilization? A hundred years old max? Not even that. The Greek experiment back in the day was short lived so there is no reason to assume our experiment will be of a longer lasting nature.

The problem with other solutions is that some are socially burned. As I mentioned before to someone, there are some similarities between fascism and Satanism. When one mentions fascism, people directly have visions of death camps, death squads, uniform ideas of thinking or living; in short horror galore and yeah N.A.Z.I. radiates through it all. The left has done a good job at indoctrinating us, as the religious did with Satanism.

What people tend to forget is that a certain governing structure is as bad as the direction it is taking or the intention behind it. So fascism, or superstatism as I prefer to call it to distinct it from old nazi-lore, can be a perfect system just as easily as it can be a horrible system. It all depends on the leadership. Is it easy to set up a meritocracy in a superstate? A lot easier than in a democracy for sure. The mob will never support ideas that challenge themselves; that can only be accomplish in a top-down structure, not a bottom-up.

D.

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#32092 - 11/22/09 02:24 AM Re: I think I finally decided my political affiliation [Re: ZephyrGirl]
SatanicVeteran Offline
stranger


Registered: 10/25/09
Posts: 11
Loc: San Francisco
all of these terms "socialism" "capitalism" "Communism" "Fascism" "Anarchism" They are just symantics...They whole argument can be boiled down to this
Individualism Vs. Collectivism Anarchism is basically the believe that people can vote on the direction of their society. They fail to see that the collective is not real their is no such thing as a group a group is but number of individuals. Hence their are no group rights only individual rights. If their is no state that will protect the rights of the individual then the angry mob will vote his/her rights away. or worse yet leave the individual swinging at the end of a rope much like the democracy we had in the southern states for a time.

Satanism is Individualism

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#34397 - 01/22/10 03:23 PM Re: I think I finally decided my political affiliation [Re: Diavolo]
TheInsane Offline
member


Registered: 09/16/09
Posts: 356
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
As I mentioned before to someone, there are some similarities between fascism and Satanism. . .

What people tend to forget is that a certain governing structure is as bad as the direction it is taking or the intention behind it. So fascism, or superstatism as I prefer to call it to distinct it from old nazi-lore, can be a perfect system just as easily as it can be a horrible system. It all depends on the leadership. Is it easy to set up a meritocracy in a superstate? A lot easier than in a democracy for sure. The mob will never support ideas that challenge themselves; that can only be accomplish in a top-down structure, not a bottom-up.

D.


I would agree with this. Of course Satanism is to much of an individualism to be put into = with any political ideology but I find that it does share or works well together with fascism in certain forms. Actually it seems to me that most Satanists either have meritocratic tendencies (which is common in fascist thought of course) or they are democratic libertarians or anarchists going full force forward with the "individual freedom" thought.

Personally I lean alot more to a meritocratic system rather than a democratic one. I see no reason why the people should choose who should run the country since most of us doesn't know enough to even know the most basic things in politics. People usually vote either by tradition, by a party's momentary popularity or by a politicians charisma and ability to speak. None are unimportant but hardy a good criteria for deciding who should run a nation.

A totalitarian state or a dictatorship can be either excellent or really bad or anything in between. Just like in a democracy it depends on who leads and what actions he or she takes. What totalitarian regimes have as an advantage is that they can really push through with their ideas while democracies really cant. In Sweden where I live there are 4 years between elections and whatever the current government has done alot will be for nothing if the opposition wins the next election this year. Their ideas will have no time to mature and start to work properly.

Another thing is that in a democratic country parties must be much more careful as to not betray their base ideology. Even if they recognize that an action that goes against the party's official traditional base is for the best they cant do it because they will loose popularity and thus be put in a position to maybe loose power. Of course a good dictator cant decide on just everything. Keeping the people happy is also important but its easier in a dictatorial regime.

Furthermore totalitarianism doesn't necessarily mean that the people are suppressed and not allowed some of the basic individual freedom rights. Again this depends on the governments policies just like in a democracy. Because whether one likes it or not democratic countries also practice censorship or the silencing of uncomfortable ideas.

But the most Satanic thing about a Fascist state would be the strife towards a meritocratic system. Satanism does stand for elitism and not egalitarianism at least that's how most of us interpret it. And really, no one actually wants the idiot next door to decide anything regarding our lives much less the whole country's development.

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#34408 - 01/22/10 10:29 PM Re: I think I finally decided my political affiliation [Re: TheInsane]
Fabiano Offline
member


Registered: 09/06/08
Posts: 374
I cannot agree with Diavolo. Where is the similarity with Satanism ? I only see that totalitarism could be the best instrument for implementing a meritocracy. So, as meritocracy is part of Satanism, Satanism is similar to fascism ??? It's thin...

Superstatims need a superstate. A superstate that will dicate (for my good if well intentionned) my behaviour by setting unilaterally the criterias. It will request me to be a good fascist, a good suercitizen.... AND THIS I DO NOT WANT !

If you think twice, the Xian system is nothing else. In the Xian perspective, You have a superleader (God) which is by definition well intentionned. He's by definion the perfect leader, he cares about me and does everything for my happiness.
NEVERTHELESS, FUCK THE SUPERSTATE AND ITS SUPERGOD !

I'm not a fonded of politic, but I'm rather reluctant towards totalitarian systems. I think the history speak by itself...
Democracy is far from an ideal. The elections tends to be similar to a lottery. It's power distributed at random. And it has the advantage to limitting the risk of totalitarian deviations toward the horrible. It's not a weak point...
And off course, the "intention" factor works in democracy as well.

I personnaly think anarchy is more fitted to meritocracy. It's the only system allowing individuals to interract freely on a contractual basis. From there, it's the survival of the fittest...

So, there might be a spider silk from the Satanic border to the fascism land, but there is a gulf in between !


Edited by Fabiano (01/22/10 10:54 PM)

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#34410 - 01/22/10 10:51 PM Re: I think I finally decided my political affiliation [Re: TheInsane]
Baron dHolbach Offline
member


Registered: 12/29/09
Posts: 162
 Originally Posted By: TheInsane
But the most Satanic thing about a Fascist state would be the strife towards a meritocratic system. Satanism does stand for elitism and not egalitarianism at least that's how most of us interpret it. And really, no one actually wants the idiot next door to decide anything regarding our lives much less the whole country's development.


Fascism is Atheist RHP. God is replaced by the state. Satanism is LHP.

Another kind of Atheist RHP is what will sometimes emerge in large corportations, where a serious attempt at brainwashing will occur, so as to replace God with the corporation.

Meritocracy is desirable in principle and sometimes even functions as advertised, while at other times devolving into a kissass-itocracy, the perrennial danger in any RHP collective, where devotion to the Godstate or the Godcorp is the way to heaven, or at least promotion, which is the mundane analogue to ascension.

Another difficulty with meritocracy is the fact that merit as a worker can lead to promotion into management, a field of endeavor requiring skills and propensities that are often quite different from the ones that were so successful when one was a worker, so that the resulting failure in the new field (management) could have been predicted. The flip side of that is when a worker has all the right skills and propensities for management, but not so much for the work itself, and thus gets stuck at the worker level due to a failure to excel there, whereas if promoted to management an immediate leap forward in performance would have occurred. There is a theoretical solution to these problems, namely, two completely distinct career paths that diverge right from the start and never converge, with comparable pay scales at the lowest, middle, and highest levels. Unfortunately I've never seen or heard of this being implemented.

None of the above is enough of an indictment of meritocracy to recommend its abolition, as no better system has yet been proposed.
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#34413 - 01/22/10 11:08 PM Re: I think I finally decided my political affiliation [Re: Baron dHolbach]
Fabiano Offline
member


Registered: 09/06/08
Posts: 374
 Quote:
Another difficulty with meritocracy is the fact that merit as a worker can lead to promotion into management, ...


This issue is not due to meritocracy. It's due to the fact that by saying "a worker can be promoted to management" you suppose that there exists a structure where the worker is at the bottom and the top managemet at the top. The salaries increase as you go higher in the hierarchy. But who can say no worker is more meritant than any manager ? In a true meritocracy, if the worker's work is hard, heavy it'll pay back and if management is easier, less risky... it should pay less...

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#34418 - 01/23/10 05:34 AM Re: I think I finally decided my political affiliation [Re: Fabiano]
Baron dHolbach Offline
member


Registered: 12/29/09
Posts: 162
 Originally Posted By: Fabiano
This issue is not due to meritocracy. It's due to the fact that by saying "a worker can be promoted to management" you suppose that there exists a structure where the worker is at the bottom and the top managemet at the top. The salaries increase as you go higher in the hierarchy. But who can say no worker is more meritant than any manager ? In a true meritocracy, if the worker's work is hard, heavy it'll pay back and if management is easier, less risky... it should pay less...


So the skyscraper window washer could make more money than the CEO? A novel notion to me and appealing, or at least that's my knee-jerk reaction to it. You, I think, would make a good dictator! \:\)

And only a dictator could impose such a system, for every impulse in man is for the the boss to get first pick of the spoils, just as the alpha male wolf in any pack always does. Just let's not call it Fascism, but restrict ourselves to the word dictatorship, and I will fantasize of such a regime coming about. \:\)
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#34420 - 01/23/10 06:24 AM Re: I think I finally decided my political affiliation [Re: Baron dHolbach]
TheInsane Offline
member


Registered: 09/16/09
Posts: 356
Fabiano:

 Quote:
Superstatims need a superstate. A superstate that will dicate (for my good if well intentionned) my behaviour by setting unilaterally the criterias. It will request me to be a good fascist, a good suercitizen.... AND THIS I DO NOT WANT !


How much a state will dictate your life depends on its ideology. Totalitarianism in itself doesn't mean the people is oppressed or not free to live life as they want. It will have guidelines on how to live but so does democratic countries. In fact I believe a country needs it because we cant let everyone do what they want or we would all live in chaos.

You link it to Christian metaphysics while I see no need to bring Christianity into the picture. My problem with Christianity is the world-view itself. No advoction of strength and pride, seeing all men as equals (or rather the poor and the weak are seen as more worthy than anyone else), the dualism of spirit vs matter etc.

 Quote:

I'm not a fonded of politic, but I'm rather reluctant towards totalitarian systems. I think the history speak by itself...
Democracy is far from an ideal. The elections tends to be similar to a lottery. It's power distributed at random.


Not really. Its about who has the most money, get the most amount of media time and who can express oneself best in a debate. Media controls who we put in charge these days as they set the trends and whims of society quite easily.

 Quote:
I personnaly think anarchy is more fitted to meritocracy. It's the only system allowing individuals to interract freely on a contractual basis. From there, it's the survival of the fittest...


Meritocracy and anarchism does not go hand in hand. The two terms actually go against each other. Anarchism means "without ruler" and meritocracy is defined as "leadership selected on the basis of intellectual criteria" (Merriam Webster).

Baron dHolbach

 Quote:
Fascism is Atheist RHP. God is replaced by the state. Satanism is LHP.

Another kind of Atheist RHP is what will sometimes emerge in large corportations, where a serious attempt at brainwashing will occur, so as to replace God with the corporation.


Politics have nothing to do with LHP or RHP. These terms are originated from tantra and describe different paths to reach wisdom (in fact both paths have the same goal). Politics are about the decisions that groups of people mdae in regards to a government and how a country should be ruled. It has nothing to do with personal enlightenment in the occult or religious or mystic sense.

You are right however about the dangers of a meritocracy. And in fact whatever system we have there will be loopholes all over whether we like it or not. Democratic capitalism puts popular ideas into power (not the best but the most popular) and it also protects economic interests even if it is destructive in the long run.


I think people are way to influenced by modern media on the subject. Almost everyone in the west cringes at the thought of a dictatorial regime because we define ourselves against that. I don't think its the dictatorship in itself that is the problem but by what ideological conviction such a country is ruled by.

We seem to think every dictatorship is defined by the suppressed individual which just isn't true. Likewise the free individual in democratic countries is also not a truthful image of how life is.

The main problem I find in the fascist state might be the cult of the person leading it. Mussolini may have been a great ruler for the first ten years but he did come to a point where something happened and suddenly he seemed to make all the wrong decisions (1936/1937). It is import and that the regime and the leader him/herself can recognise this and put a stop to it before it spirals out of control (like it eventually did with Italy).

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#34421 - 01/23/10 10:07 AM Re: I think I finally decided my political affiliation [Re: Fabiano]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Maybe you should have paid more attention to what I actually wrote about the link between Satanism and fascism. I was talking about a popularization of a certain idea; the creation of a specific meme to lead the sheep into the desired direction. As such most objections that I read here are nothing but people replicating those concepts defined by others without giving it much more thought than the obvious which has nested itself in their brains all too well.

The idea of fascism being RHP or a Christian model was amusing to read but I can't take it too serious. These are ideas sprouted in brains not able to detach from what has been popularized. Nothing has been infested more by Christian thinking than democracy, especially the European Leftist approach with their horrible concepts like socialism in whatever shape and multiculturalism. It is a system where the strong are forced to bow down to the demands of the weak. It will lead nowhere as already witnessed in the decline of our Western culture. Not long before we are truly men amongst ruins.

A superstate or organic state depends wholly on its intention and direction. The path it is heading defines it. As such, the State should not be seen as the mother that cuddles the weak -a role democracy is all too eager to take- but as a father that rewards the strong or punishes when needed. It also doesn't imply the state has control on all levels as depicted in most anti-fascist horror scenarios. Freedom is nothing but being able to advance as much as you are capable of without being held hostage by the weak and incompetent.

D.

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#34426 - 01/23/10 02:21 PM Re: I think I finally decided my political affiliation [Re: Diavolo]
Baron dHolbach Offline
member


Registered: 12/29/09
Posts: 162
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
]The idea of fascism being RHP or a Christian model was amusing to read but I can't take it too serious.


I doubt anyone would say Fascism is Christian. But sincere Fascism is RHP because its center, its beating heart, is something outside the self, namely the state. Where the Satanist practices self-reverence, the sincere Fascist reveres the state. Where the Satanist practices self-overcoming so the Satanist may become, the sincere Fascist works for the state's self-overcoming so that the state may become. Where the Satanist wills power for the self, the sincere Fascist wills power for the state. The two systems cannot both drive the same person. The Satanist may preach Fascism to others as a tactic of manipulation and domination, but that's all it will ever be, a tactic, and as the sincere fools shout their slogans and stamp their feet and pound their chests, the Satanist will be calculating the logistics of personal power.

Mussolini may have been a Satanist, but those who blindly followed him were not. When Pope Benedict inspires his followers to fall to their knees and consecrate themselves to Christ, and when a Mussolini inspires his followers to rise to their feet and bellow their allegiance to the Fatherland, the essence is the same, the tactics of manipulation and domination are the same. It may be that some Popes were secretly Satanists. But the fools who wept at the feet of these Popes, and kissed their rings, were not. The one who says, "Follow me," may be a Satanist, but the one who whispers "Lead me" with trembling voice, is not.

Fascism cannot exist without leaders and followers. Satanism most definitely can.
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