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#118807 - 03/02/19 04:33 PM Absent vs Abusive Fathers
XiaoGui17 Online
veteran member


Registered: 10/21/09
Posts: 1250
Loc: Austin, TX
I've been mulling this over. Almost everyone I know had one or the other. Those whose fathers were present and not a violent mess were a rare exception. Hell, some even got the one-two combo of absent biodad and abusive stepdad.

What's wild to me is that no matter how bad the abusive fathers were, their kids always seemed to end up more well-adjusted than the ones with no father figure present in their lives whatsoever.

A catalog of my significant others, for instance:
1
Father: Rarely-present
Son: Not a functioning person, doesn't shower (ever), can't hold down a job, doesn't go out at all. Only reason he hasn't starved to death is his substantial inheritance from said absent father.
2
Father: Completely absent. A supposedly celibate clergyman with a bastard son, not going to openly acknowledge the kid's existence.
Son: Coke / xanax dealer and addict, stole cars, kept losing throwaway jobs over his emotional instability and unreliability.
3
Father: hit both kids and mom in front of kids but always present.
Son: Had a bit of a coke habit, drinking problem, honesty and commitment issues, socially-awkward bumpkin, but could hold down a job and function day-to-day for the most part.
4 (BF) & 5 (FWB)
Fathers: Religious fanatics (Mormon & Muslim respectively) and very violent, eventually divorced but present for most of their childhoods
Son / Daughter: Generally well-adjusted, smart, responsible, took care of business. Bit of a slut and liked to get fucked up but not compulsive / self-destructive about either
6
Father: Gone before son was born, son not even sure of name and unsure whether he's seen a picture
Son: Threw temper tantrums like a toddler despite being middle-aged. Virgin until 22. Seriously injured himself jacking off ... "creatively." Constantly unemployed and spending over half his paycheck on weed and shitty beer. Only dates women half his age or younger cause anyone older is too world-wise to put up with his bullshit. Constantly close to eviction / bankruptcy.
7
Father: hated his kids for not being white. (Amazingly, when you stick your dick in a Mexican woman, Mexican kids come out. I take it he couldn't find any white women willing to put up with his bullshit.) Very violent drunk who threatened to kill his son and hit him for asking questions or requesting to be fed. Beat wife in front of kids. Shipped his son off to a funny farm when he was 12 because he couldn't be arsed with raising his own offspring.
Son: Remarkably well-adjusted, considering. Bit of restlessness / wanderlust / wild partying in his youth, managed to get kicked out of the Navy, but landed a damn decent career and got his shit together

Looking at #7 especially, his father did practically everything wrong one could conceivably imagine short of raping him up the ass, and yet he's worlds above the ones whose fathers weren't present in their lives.

I suppose correlation isn't causation and there's any number of factors at play--especially the mothers. It could be the crazy ones were the ones with crazy moms, and the crazy moms could've been what drove the absent fathers to leave completely. #6 had a crazy mom for sure. 3 / 4 / 5 / 7 had mothers that were generally sweet but painfully meek. Guess someone knocking the crap out of you will do that to you, though that might be confusing cause and effect.

Am I noticing a pattern that isn't there? And if it is a pattern, why?
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#118810 - 03/02/19 07:55 PM Re: Absent vs Abusive Fathers [Re: XiaoGui17]
Kori Houghton Offline
member


Registered: 11/23/15
Posts: 153
Loc: East Coast USA
This is just so culturally alien to me.

I come from a huge family. And this stuff just didn't happen.

Including both sides of my family, my generation of cousins is almost 30. One of my male half-cousins (my maternal grandmother was widowed young during a flu epidemic before WW1 and remarried) divorced his wife and got custody of their 2 kids. She was mentally ill and committed suicide (shot herself in the head) while on the phone with her children. Two of my maternal half cousins married divorced people.

My mother's oldest brother (there were 8 kids in her family) supposedly had an illegitimate son, but he was always accepted as part of the family. He was so much older that I don't remember him.

A couple of my mom's brothers had drinking "problems", and both of my grandfathers might have been full on alcoholics. Dunno. My maternal grandfather died when my mom was 5, but that never stopped the sons from being regular guys with jobs and all the rest of it. Neither my mom or her sisters were "3 at the altar". My paternal grandfather passed before I was a year old; came to the USA as a 14 year old political refugee before WW1, a member of the aristocracy whose family was always on the outs with Czar. He worked first as a stable boy, then moved up (?) to unskilled factory work. Was always available to his kids.

Everyone in my generation, who wanted to, went to college. No, we didn't go to Princeton, but we were professionals and had decent lives. Fewer than a handful of my cousins got into some trouble with drugs (including my brother), but that was (I think) more because they were so fucking spoiled rather than neglected.

When my late husband and I moved to a remote rural area in the 1990s, we discovered the culture of 95+% divorce with absent fathers/abandoned kids. Yes, the pattern repeats across the generations regardless of socio-economic status.

I pass no judgement. I mean their way of life is so different from anything I ever knew, it would be like judging an alien species.
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#118811 - 03/02/19 08:15 PM Re: Absent vs Abusive Fathers [Re: Kori Houghton]
XiaoGui17 Online
veteran member


Registered: 10/21/09
Posts: 1250
Loc: Austin, TX
 Originally Posted By: Kori Houghton
This is just so culturally alien to me.

I come from a huge family. And this stuff just didn't happen.
Oh, indeed. My grandmother was Italian Catholic and had five children. Her oldest son had eight, and he's now a great-grandfather. My mother was her middle child. My parents married three years before I was born and remain married, and I'm the oldest of four. I've well over a hundred cousins, if second and thirds count.

It took me a while to come to the realization that I was the odd one out among my peers.

One classmate looked at me funny when I described him as a "latchkey kid." Once I defined it for him, he was baffled that there was even a term for it. He asked, "Isn't that everyone?"

I suppose my parents thought I would find boyfriends / girlfriends more like us, but we were exceptional for Austin. What I ended up dating was largely what Austin had to offer.
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#118812 - 03/03/19 12:42 AM Re: Absent vs Abusive Fathers [Re: XiaoGui17]
CanisMachina42 Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/10/13
Posts: 1392
Loc: CA
I am the worst person to judge another's dating history but since you put it out there.

My immediate take is a similar reason to why of the 6 girls I have dated 5 have been lesbians. I was imprinted by heavy exposure to softball that dragged me to cities all around the southwest. Imprinting of what is a female lead to me seeking the types of girls that dont give a fuck about makeup or being girly.

I have also found stereotypes time and again get validated.

I can only speculate but perhaps you really liked Pretty Woman or movies of that ilk.  It is most glaringly laced with that idealized man or partner in every movie guys get laid for taking their wives to see. Look for Jennifer Garner, Anne Hathaway, and amazingly Helen Hunt.

The operative trope here is the theme of As Good As It Gets. For the most part, women are drawn to the premise where their Venusian prowess has the magical powers to sink ships and heal the sick.

You encourage and are attracted to assertive flowers the bloom from lazy incompetent weeds.

On another note you have the dating history of every independent black woman.

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#118813 - 03/03/19 03:42 AM Re: Absent vs Abusive Fathers [Re: XiaoGui17]
RJ9000 Offline
stranger


Registered: 10/03/18
Posts: 18
 Originally Posted By: XiaoGui17
I've been mulling this over....


Great post, it makes sense that even a role model experienced negatively is still a reference standard for the brain to compare itself to and make decisions about what features are useful and which are not...sounds somewhat related to the old Harlow 'wire mother' experiments (extended by Suomi, I think?), the hostile wire mother was better than no contact at all...
I don't know if the 'mirror neuron' concept is still a useful one, but perhaps that can be involved as well...

I have a thesis that early stressors like less-than-positive parental interaction, childhood awareness of resource scarcity, among others, are can be powerful motivators to the initiatory experience, I hope to discuss some of these in the context of the thread I just created on Evola and his approach to esotericism.



Edited by RJ9000 (03/03/19 04:13 AM)

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#118814 - 03/03/19 06:58 AM Re: Absent vs Abusive Fathers [Re: XiaoGui17]
Czereda Online
senior member


Registered: 03/14/11
Posts: 2096
Loc: Poland
Oh well... my father has rarely been present. He and my mother got divorced but I had a positive relationship with him. Although we met only from time to time, he rather spoiled me, took me to some funny places, bought me some funny toys, we went together for a walk etc. He's still alive and I see him less often but when we meet, it's rather nice without feelings of mutual grudge.

He was rather irresponsible. He still is. I once had to go to court to get child support because he didn't want to pay. It was when I was over 18 but I was still a student. Fathers have to pay child support as long as their children study but not longer than till they are over 26. He was furious but got over it quickly.

Sure I was a bit shy and socially awkward as a kid but I wouldn't describe myself as malfunctioning. I'm single but have a job and friends. My close friend had a dad and she's no luckier at finding partners. There are some fucked up people living in my neighborhood but I didn't investigate what their fathers were like. I think the variety of factors contribute to the person's development. Not only the parents but also peers and the overall experience. A lot depends on character. I have two cousins. They both were brought up in the same home, had the same parents and one is mature and responsible and the other is silly, lazy and irresponsible. One is married, hardworking and committed to his family and another got divorced, has a drinking problem, wastes money and had a long period of unemployment.

I don't think the father who abuses a kid is better than no father. Sure, what doesn't kill you, makes you stronger but childhood traumas can also have a devastating effect on the psyche. I didn't look into it closely but I suspect that many children from disfunctional families end up like broken toys. But that doesn't mean that all of them are like that.


Edited by Czereda (03/03/19 06:59 AM)
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#118839 - 03/05/19 07:12 AM Re: Absent vs Abusive Fathers [Re: CanisMachina42]
XiaoGui17 Online
veteran member


Registered: 10/21/09
Posts: 1250
Loc: Austin, TX
 Originally Posted By: CanisMachina42
I can only speculate but perhaps you really liked Pretty Woman or movies of that ilk.

Nah, not really. It's not that I had bad lessons so much as no lessons.

When I started seeing #1 (I was 15), my dad told me, "You shouldn't date that guy. He's a loser."

Way too little, way too late. Never before had anyone told me: (1) Not to date losers, (2) Why not to date losers, or (3) How to identify a loser.

My dad was funny. He understood that his role was to educate his children, but he thought of "educate" as exclusively academic. He acted as though he assumed life lessons came pre-installed.

As a kid, I was practically an idiot savant--really good at math and science and grammar and shit, absolute garbage when it came to what most would deem common sense. I picked that shit up by trial and error. Mostly error. Mostly humiliating, painful, often irreparable error.

 Originally Posted By: CanisMachina42
For the most part, women are drawn to the premise where their Venusian prowess has the magical powers to sink ships and heal the sick.

You encourage and are attracted to assertive flowers the bloom from lazy incompetent weeds.

Fixer instinct / "my love is a panacaea", yes.

I see my bad dating habits as an outgrowth of the liberal / progressive principles I was generally taught. My parents were--in theory--sappy hippies. I was told that people who were down on their luck were less fortunate than us and never, ever brought it on themselves. I was told that being generous was a virtue. I was told that if people were just given a chance and shown care, they could improve.

They meant that to be applied exclusively to shit like welfare and whatnot, but that was the principle underlying what they said. They were far more personally conservative than their politics reflected--a heavy degree of cognitive dissonance.

Anyone with life experience would've seen the disconnect between their liberal / hippy-in-theory, conservative-in-practice worldview, but I didn't have life experience. I was an impressionable child and took them at their word.

So I take to heart what I've been taught and actually apply it to my dating habits. My parents:


 Originally Posted By: CanisMachina42
On another note you have the dating history of every independent black woman.

To my credit, I did not have a litter of bastards. If there was one life lesson my parents actually did manage to get across to me, it was "Don't have kids out of wedlock." I managed that, at least.
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Wir halten uns an Regeln, Wenn man uns regeln lässt

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#118885 - 03/11/19 04:57 AM Re: Absent vs Abusive Fathers [Re: Czereda]
RJ9000 Offline
stranger


Registered: 10/03/18
Posts: 18
 Originally Posted By: Czereda
Sure, what doesn't kill you, makes you stronger but childhood traumas can also have a devastating effect on the psyche. I didn't look into it closely but I suspect that many children from disfunctional families end up like broken toys. But that doesn't mean that all of them are like that.


Would you consider this to in some way form "usable" energy? I have employed deliberate focus and amplification of anger at my youthful circumstances in generating higher consciousness (rather than peaceful meditation etc). Concentrating anger and hate at both the people involved (e.g., deliberately viewing them as 'less than me') and at the circumstantial details (the waste of my time, energy and resources) seems to have been the only approach that has had consistent, lasting results for me (which is why I decided to explore some of these thoughts in a Satanist community rather than some New Age forum)

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