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#12057 - 09/30/08 04:15 PM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: The Zebu]
Fabiano Offline
member


Registered: 09/06/08
Posts: 374
 Originally Posted By: The Zebu
Exactly. Even if I agreed with the philosophy of Christianity, I still find the idea of the supernatural to go against all of my ideas of logic and reason.


Nemesis, The Zebu, I'm just here trying to better understand Satanism I'm discovering.
In TSB the 1st half of the book is about the "theory" and you all roughly shares these views. The book of Belial and Leviathan are about ritual and magic. I have sometimes the impression that you just ignore the 2nd half. Am I right ?

Fabiano

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#12058 - 09/30/08 04:34 PM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: Fabiano]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1640
Loc: Orlando, FL
wait... wut?

I believe in the psychological effectiveness of ritual, symbols, and psychodrama. In addition to my philosophical views, that's why I primarily identify Satanism as my religion. I consider myself both a Satanist and an Atheist.

I'm just saying that I personally don't find it rational to believe in the supernatural... but I couldn't care less what other people believe as long as they're not trying to present it as absolute truth. Nor is everyone on this forum a hardcore materialist like I am, so debating over intangible things like souls and such is not going to go anywhere.


Edited by The Zebu (09/30/08 04:34 PM)
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«Recibe, ˇoh Lucifer! la sangre de esta víctima que sacrifico en tu honor.»

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#12059 - 09/30/08 05:17 PM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: lux]
Fabiano Offline
member


Registered: 09/06/08
Posts: 374
 Originally Posted By: lux
Diavolo:

"Why would a person want to believe in god?

Leaving out those who can't but believe, in my opinion each desire (wanting) to believe in a god (or something similar) comes forth from an inferiority complex. It's the mindset of a slave; they need a master to give a purpose to their life and protect them from reality."

LOL, your still looking to belief in God as in Belief in the Existance of God... "even the demons believe in (the existance of) God" I tread on very, very dangerous Ground....How about the concept of God?


ROTFL! Yes the demons you invented beleive in the existence of God ! One Xian preacher told me once that "demons know God exists and they tremble with fear"! As I already said, we don't tremble with fear. We're self confident. Satans represents The rebel, the non submissive one, the "weak" who dares to question the omnipotent God, the one accuses the churches to do the opposite of what they preach.
Lucifer Represents the one who thinks by himself, the one who look at the reality and uncovers it by bringing his light. We don't want or need to be protected from reality.
You know Lux, from my point of view, I see your faith as a dream you're in. The Dream is so real! But I woke up and I can know remeber my dream and think about it...

Satans and Lucifer represents the values we (satanists) share.

I hope it'll help you to have a better understanding what is Modern Satanism.

Finaly, Lux, I can undertsand you and "enter your world" to be "on the same wavelength" than you when we discuss about some Xian concept.
But when Diavolo come with a remark regarding real people, you should be able to "enter his hard real wordl". Answering that "demons knows the existence of God" add nothing.
The question is : "Don't you think some people live in their imaginary religious world because it's more comfortable than the hard reality" ?

Fabiano

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#12060 - 09/30/08 05:46 PM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: The Zebu]
Fabiano Offline
member


Registered: 09/06/08
Posts: 374
 Originally Posted By: The Zebu
wait... wut?

I believe in the psychological effectiveness of ritual, symbols, and psychodrama. In addition to my philosophical views, that's why I primarily identify Satanism as my religion. I consider myself both a Satanist and an Atheist.

I'm just saying that I personally don't find it rational to believe in the supernatural... but I couldn't care less what other people believe as long as they're not trying to present it as absolute truth. Nor is everyone on this forum a hardcore materialist like I am, so debating over intangible things like souls and such is not going to go anywhere.


I understand well The Zebu, Indeed the magic can be (tentatively) "explained" by modern psychology concepts. I prefer a rational explanation than a surnatural one. But there are thing that cannot be explained. When it's written that your ennemy is more receptive when he sleep & dreams, I can't see any psychological explanation...

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#12061 - 09/30/08 06:20 PM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: Fabiano]
lux Offline
Banned
pledge


Registered: 09/26/08
Posts: 64
Loc: Newcastle UK
You people should know the demons better than most.

To me there seems to be a few type of people where they stand regarding the Christian faith.

1.The Athiest Christian who rejcts out of hand the existance of God but believes in the philosophy.. but fails to understand the philosophy.

2. The Christian who believes without understanding...blind faith
3. The Christian who believes with understanding.
4. The Christian who has doubts but has understanding.
5. The Christian who disbelieves with understanding.
6. None Christian who dont believe and dont understand.
7. Non Christian who dont believe and think they understand.
8. Non Christian who does believe and does understand.

1. Is not really a Christian (There is hope)
2. Is a babe in Christ (On the Road)
3. Is a saint or in the making (made it or in the process)
4. Is a want to be saint... but not yet.(Further down the road)
5. Is a good person. (Not on the road but isnt denying the road is there)
6. Is a lost individual (There is hope)
7. Is a proud individual (No hope bar a miracle)
8. Is a wicked individual (There is hope)

also

9, the Christian who believes, thinks he understands but does not

9. The blind leading the blind.

I have yet to meet no 10

10 The one who doesnt believe and understands.

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#12062 - 09/30/08 06:55 PM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: lux]
Fist Moderator Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/31/07
Posts: 1453
Loc: B'mo Cautious MF
 Quote:
Why dont you WANT to believe in God?


Good golly and gee wiz, wouldn't it be nice to believe in Xtian fairy tales. However, I am grown person living in the real world and believing in God is pretty well pointless. I have seen nothing in my life to make me want to believe in God.

Ok, clearly we will have to use the Socratic Method here. Why don't you believe in Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny?


 Quote:
A moron, I hope not but that is for others to decide not me.


Ahh, one vote for moron please...
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I am the Devil and I am here to do the Devil's work.

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#12063 - 09/30/08 07:27 PM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: Fist]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1640
Loc: Orlando, FL
Lux, at this point you're just making abstractions with no backing.

How would we know "demons"? To you, demons are beings that know the full glory of God and yet consciously reject Him, and yet at the same time fear Him and tremble at His name.

On the other hand, we don't accept the base premises that even the Christian Devil is supposed to (that God exists). The ideas of God and Jesus are irrelevant to us; we have our own ideas that we think are right. Just because some scripture to the contrary claims divine inspiration does not mean that we will think any less of our own ideas.

If sin is the rejection of God, then we cannot be sinning, as we do not see any God to reject.

For us to change our ideas you're going to need to argue from a mundane point of view- show us that your ideas have philosophical weight even without the finery of divinity.

And Fabiano, I'll respond later via PM since I don't want to derail the thread.
_________________________
«Recibe, ˇoh Lucifer! la sangre de esta víctima que sacrifico en tu honor.»

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#12073 - 09/30/08 10:44 PM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: The Zebu]
blackdragon31560 Offline
pledge


Registered: 08/30/07
Posts: 74
Loc: Hell Paso, TX
i read this thread last night, and couldn't help wounder why people are arguing with lux. It's a waste of time, using logic against someone that doesn't believe in it or use it (aka faith). the simplest fact is that the "Christian faith" most Xtian faith's are nothing new just bastardization of past religions and legends. yet declare heretics of those they stole from, the key word is hypocrisy.


 Quote:
Also I am not blaming satanists in their VARIOUS forms, but Satanism in its Various forms... Athiesm, Humanism, Paganism...


simply ignorance, theistic (Paganism) and atheistic (Athiesm, Humanism) they are not remotely the same.

trying to argue or explain this to Lux, is like talking to a wall.
_________________________
Hatred is gained as much by good works as by evil.

~ Niccolo Machiavelli

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#12074 - 09/30/08 11:30 PM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: lux]
Nykky Offline
stranger


Registered: 09/27/08
Posts: 22
Loc: Northern CA
 Originally Posted By: lux


I will be honest I do not know without Doubt, I never said I Know God exists without doubt,I never said God exists and that is a Fact... what I said is I believe in God.

I do say the prayer.... "lord I believe, help my unbelief"

Man needs God...Men need God



But yet you are arguing as if it is fact. Instead of trying to argue that there is a God why don't you try to understand why we don't believe there is a God. You are arguing every point that is made and refuse to accept anyone's answers as to why they don't believe in God or why they don't share the same religious beliefs as you.

I'm sure the majority of people here have read the Bible and have learned about religions from parents, school, and so on. We have made a decision and look at things from a different perspective than you.

You came to a Satanist forum looking to "read, listen and ask questions to gain a better understanding of our nemesis" but all you have done is argue and refuse to accept other peoples answers. You are not learning anything this way. Maybe you should ask questions regarding Satanism and learn a little more.You couldn't have possibly even touched the surface. Nobody is going to to try and turn you away from your faith, nor are they going to chastise you for asking questions. If you came here to learn than you should not be debating everything that is said. Don't you have any questions on what it's about besides the fact that it does not involve believing in God?

I'm very very new and have had the wrong impression when I started reading into Satanism. I hardly know anything about this subject myself but I'm going to learn and read all I can. I am not going to call myself a Satanist at this point because I simply do not know enough to make a decision. I do know that I do not believe there is a God.

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#12077 - 10/01/08 05:05 AM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: Nykky]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3119
 Originally Posted By: fabiano
understand well The Zebu, Indeed the magic can be (tentatively) "explained" by modern psychology concepts. I prefer a rational explanation than a surnatural one. But there are thing that cannot be explained. When it's written that your ennemy is more receptive when he sleep & dreams, I can't see any psychological explanation...

I can, it is just some other part of your brain that becomes active and still uses your sences. Even if not aware you can talk to him and put ideas into his head he will act to if awoken. It is quite simple..


@ lux, it is quite rude to always start your numbering with "the christian that.." some take it as an offent. I'd prefer if you use "the men". It is much more universal and much more politer.

also:
 Quote:
Man needs God...Men need God

Is simply bullshit. It is better written as: "Some men need god, all men doesn't need him."

@ fabiano;
 Quote:
The book of Belial and Leviathan are about ritual and magic. I have sometimes the impression that you just ignore the 2nd half. Am I right ?

If you read closely they aren't ignoring it but have their own personal view about it. For performing a ritual or practice magic you do not need a "higher power". Satan, leviathen, beelsebub,.. are just symbols representing some aspects of life. And it is with such global aspects we work within rituals.
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#12078 - 10/01/08 05:08 AM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: lux]
ZephyrGirl Offline
R.I.P.
active member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 706
Loc: Adelaide Australia
 Originally Posted By: Lux
 Originally Posted By: ZephyrGirl
Satanism doesn't stop someone from being as altruistic as they are by nature."


But neither does it speak out/oppose those who wish to be as self centred as they wish, infact it encourages it, kindness and thinking of others are seen as weak, the less kind you are and the more self centred the stronger you are. I see that Satanism is about the self, but focusing on yourself means you fail to see others.


The very shallow and starting point of Satanism might appear that way to one first reading TSB, but in fact, caring for those around you that are indeed worthy of your care is very important part of Satanism. To do this though, you have to know yourself, so focusing on the self is the start. However, man is not an island and most of us want to have relationships with the opposite sex, family, friends etc. Helping your community is helping yourself and your family.


I would like you to give me one good reason why someone shouldn't be self centered? Without using the 'bible told me so', that you are so fond of (or God wants or the church says so).

 Originally Posted By: Lux
But it is a hiararchy based on who is strongest, more dominant, tyranny is the reuslt of anarchy. Imagine a King who is a satanist, what terror he is to his people.


So you are saying that we should all do what the weakest of us want? Strength is not just physical size. Being smart is a strength. Don't you want the smartest leaders and Kings? Or do you really want the weakest person for the job? That King would be invaded or overthrown straight away. You haven't thought your statement through properly you are just going with what you have been taught by The Church.

 Originally Posted By: Lux
 Originally Posted By: ZephyrGirl
My problem with you now Lux and I won't be responding anymore ( OK, maybe once more , is that you keep quoting as fact, a bunch of OPINIONS."


like what?


Like everything that you quote from the Bible. That is full of opinions and opinions only. There is no basis in fact or collaborating evidence that is not heresay.

 Quote:
Why dont you want to believe in God?

or

Have you missed the point?



And what point is that exactly Lux? If I've missed the point, it is because you have not stated it clearly.

However in answer to your question, it's not that I don't WANT to beleive in God, it's that I don't NEED to beleive in God. And not only that, if I was to 'try' to beleive in God I would be being dishonest to myself. Like others have said, I haven't experienced anything in life that makes me think that there is any all powerful being or God out there. Not only that, I think that those that do beleive in God because they 'feel' or 'hear' him are actually just tuning in their subconcious, something that I find second nature.

 Quote:
I am asking questions of people, it is you who imagine I am saying they are wrong, perhaps because deep down my questions make you feel you are wrong.. but I have never said you are.


Ok, I will concede that you haven't come outright and said that people here are wrong. It is pretty bloody obvious though, that is what you think, or you wouldn't be debating about it all, instead of just taking in the answers your receive and asking a new question. Your rebuttal is proof of you beleif that we are wrong. I most definately don't feel wrong either shallowly or deep down.

 Quote:
It amazes me, but i am begining to think I understand satanism better than some satanists, but of course the first thing satanism does is to focus the individual on themselves... if you want to do this, then do it, if you dont then dont...basically satanisim can be summed up as... "do what you want" but by focusing on yourself, perhaps you fail to see the bigger picture.... do you really want to release the so called "demons" from their prison?


No Lux, you don't understand Satanism better than me, very cocky of you to think that you do though.........you'll be a fine Satanist once you stop lying to yourself.

I'm not sure what 'demons' you are talking about, but I'll take it that you mean my own personal 'inner' demons. Actually I can't think of anything better than letting them out. Freeing myself of them is a very healing thing to to. Once you have freed yourself, you are then free to be a real help to those around you that deserve it. Your family, friends and lovers, community etc and so on and so forth. How can you be of help to others if you cannot even get rid of your own hangups?

Zeph
_________________________
Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass -
It's about learning to dance in the rain.


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#12081 - 10/01/08 05:47 AM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: lux]
Fabiano Offline
member


Registered: 09/06/08
Posts: 374
 Originally Posted By: lux
You people should know the demons better than most.

To me there seems to be a few type of people where they stand regarding the Christian faith.

1.The Athiest Christian who rejcts out of hand the existance of God but believes in the philosophy.. but fails to understand the philosophy.

2. The Christian who believes without understanding...blind faith
3. The Christian who believes with understanding.
4. The Christian who has doubts but has understanding.
5. The Christian who disbelieves with understanding.
6. None Christian who dont believe and dont understand.
7. Non Christian who dont believe and think they understand.
8. Non Christian who does believe and does understand.

1. Is not really a Christian (There is hope)
2. Is a babe in Christ (On the Road)
3. Is a saint or in the making (made it or in the process)
4. Is a want to be saint... but not yet.(Further down the road)
5. Is a good person. (Not on the road but isnt denying the road is there)
6. Is a lost individual (There is hope)
7. Is a proud individual (No hope bar a miracle)
8. Is a wicked individual (There is hope)

also

9, the Christian who believes, thinks he understands but does not

9. The blind leading the blind.

I have yet to meet no 10

10 The one who doesnt believe and understands.


Then what? What are you triying to explain here? This is not making us progressing...

To me, this is just MEGO overload.

Be more constructive Lux! I'm feeling wasting my time when reading such post...

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#12086 - 10/01/08 07:27 AM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: Fabiano]
Nemesis Offline
senior member


Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2175
Loc: US
It's always fun to watch someone's arguments fall apart, once they start being bombarded with facts and logic. Lux is backed into a corner, and posts that were once intelligent, respectful and thoughtful are now turning into circular gibberish. It was inevitable, but the entertainment is beginning to wane.
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Nothing is sacred.

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#12087 - 10/01/08 08:33 AM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: Nemesis]
Fist Moderator Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/31/07
Posts: 1453
Loc: B'mo Cautious MF
Personally, I think this nonsense has gone on too long already. Lux came here with his hat in his hand with the ostensible purpose of learning about Satanism. In short order he went right to babbling about the bible story that we all already know and have roundly rejected.

He has been impervious (read - completely dense) to logic and does not understand that faith is a Logical Fallacy. He defends God in the same way that my children might defend Batman or Superman.

All the same, everyone seems to be having a good time with him so I suppose this is tolerable.
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I am the Devil and I am here to do the Devil's work.

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#12093 - 10/01/08 10:53 AM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: Fist]
Nemesis Offline
senior member


Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2175
Loc: US
I agree. However, I'd like this thread to just run its course (which it pretty much has) to allow Lux to post all possible arguments for his Christian cause. I'd also like to use this thread as a referral for any Jesus peddlers or people coming from a religious standpoint who are trying to understand this philosophy and those who embrace it. I think the posts on this thread were intelligent and covered a lot of ground. There's no reason we should have to go through it all again the next time someone like Lux comes by.
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