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#11897 - 09/27/08 06:42 AM Modern Satanism isnt it just....
lux Offline
Banned
pledge


Registered: 09/26/08
Posts: 64
Loc: Newcastle UK
I am not a satanist, I am a Christian of the most fowl order yep, I am a Catholic. I am not here to give you lot a hard time "oh your going to hell" and all that, you have probably heard it a million times anyway and anyone who is a satanist really wouldnt be expecting anything more... if he/she believed in a real hell that is....No I am here to read, listen and ask questions to gain a better understanding of our nemisis..i am so sure you guys know all about Christianity... where we "the flock" know very little about Satanism (sure our shepherds know) and its "better the devil you know" sorry for the pun.

Now it seems to me having read a little about "modern Satanism" is that it is not Satanism that is directly opposite Christianity. I Think it is closer to athiesm than the traditional idea of worshiping a fallen angel. It seems to me that someone has took the ideas of athiesm, materialism, and mixed it with serving the self rather than others and called it Satanism.

Ok athiesm is a disbelief in God(s) existance and the spiritworld. the devil did not disbelieve in God's existance or in the spiritworld he was/is an angel.

BTW just because i believe in a real God and a real devil,does not mean I imagine a red guy with horns a pitch fork etc... no I doubt that image very much... The Angel Lucifer was created as the highest order of angels.

Materialism or the persuit of worldly things as an ideal can not be in itself Satanism since satan is no a worldly cereature but a creature in the spirit world. A Christian does not store up treasure on earth because earth is not our home, our home is with god, but equally a satanists home would be with satan

Finally Self Servitude... if your serving yourself your not serving satan because a human being is not inherently evil and has inclinations to do good...i.e what is pleasing to God, I am sure you all do things everyday that is pleasing to God, Just as we do things everyday that are sinful. However at least Christ is a forgiving God.

So Isnt Modern Satanism just a bunch of diobolical ideals grouped together and labled "Satanism" more out of a f**k you to the Christians than actual demonic worship.

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#11898 - 09/27/08 07:28 AM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: lux]
ZephyrGirl Offline
R.I.P.
active member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 706
Loc: Adelaide Australia
 Quote:
No I am here to read, listen and ask questions to gain a better understanding of our nemisis..


Well so far you've typed, talked and done the opposite to what you said. Surprise, your a Catholic. tee he he

So, can I ask....who or what is your nemesis? Satan? Satanists or your lack of understanding of your own nature. The nautre of humanity?

 Quote:
BTW just because i believe in a real God and a real devil,does not mean I imagine a red guy with horns a pitch fork etc... no I doubt that image very much... The Angel Lucifer was created as the highest order of angels.


Yes, I like to think that Santa Claus is a really hot looking 29 year old man about 6'4" with rippling abs and red thong.

 Quote:
A Christian does not store up treasure on earth because earth is not our home, our home is with god,


Well that's just bullshit. Christians don't store up treasure Pah! And you're Catholic you say, ever heard of the Vatican City? Have their own money there don't they? Riches anyone? Don't store treasure, bah, puleeeeese, next thing you'll be saying you are honest with yourself and don't look at porn.

I don't know if you were trying to win any points by being all, I'm not going to lecture you in your own website and all, but really you are just having the most basic of manners.

Why don't you download and read the free copy of the Satanic Bible and educate yourself about what modern Satanism is, or are you too afraid that you are actually attracted to it (as it makes alot more sense than Christianity) and that you might become one of the enemy (well your perceived enemy) yourself?

I promise I'll answer 10 questions from you, if you read TSB. And if you read some Nietscke I'll show you my Double D's. ;\)

ZephyrGirl
_________________________
Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass -
It's about learning to dance in the rain.


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#11900 - 09/27/08 08:11 AM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: lux]
Nemesis Offline
senior member


Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2175
Loc: US
 Quote:
No I am here to read, listen and ask questions to gain a better understanding of our nemisis

Who's nemesis are we talking about? Ours or yours?

 Quote:
Materialism or the persuit of worldly things as an ideal can not be in itself satanism since satan is no a worldly cereature but a creature in the spirit world.

Satan represents all of man's base desires: Greed, gluttony, lust, power.

 Quote:
A Christian does not store up treasure on earth because earth is not our home, our home is with god

No, a good Christian is not SUPPOSED to store treasure, and yet they do anyway. And of course the earth is not your home...you were only born and raised on it. It fed you, provided you with great joy, educated you...fuck earth, right? No wonder this planet's in such a mess, with so many people who have this kind of mentality. "Let's wipe our asses with the Earth, the only one we've got, cuz we've got big puffy clouds in the sky to fly around in when we die!"

 Quote:
....a satanists home would be with satan

This is where you start confusing modern Satanists with the blasphemous worshippers of Christianity, the stereotypical "Satanist" that sacrfices animals and small children. When we die, we simply cease to exist. Some might believe that some sort of energy is released when we pass on, but humans have no tangible soul that "transcends" into another plane of existence.

 Quote:
if your serving yourself your not serving satan because a human being is not inherently evil and has inclinations to do good...i.e what is pleasing to God, I am sure you all do things everyday that is pleasing to God, Just as we do things everyday that are sinful.


Define "evil"...is it selfishness? Success at the cost of others? Lack of concern for humanity? Obviously murder can be a bad thing, unless it is in self-defense or someone attacked your family, as well as being accidental as killing someone in an auto accident. Rape goes against the natural order of things, especially among higher primates and intelligent mammals such as cats, dogs, whales and dolphins, etc, yet the Bible gives no mention of it in the "Top 10 Sins" category. Stealing can either be done out of necessity or greed, so that's a gray area that can't be lumped into the "evil" category.

See, that's the inherent problem with religions of all kinds. This polarization of human emotions and instincts. It calls for denial of part of your self, then tries to make up for it by inserting worship and self-sacrifice as substitutes. It doesn't work. It's like changing out a blown tire on your car with a trashcan lid. It's flimsy and won't hold up. It's not what your car is supposed to run on, and once you try to drive with it, it'll do such damage to the vehicle that it'll need thousands of dollars in repairs to make it run right again.

 Quote:
However at least Christ is a forgiving God.

Christ is not a God, he is supposed to be the SON of God...and I doubt that God really appreciates so many of his flock paying homage to Christ than to him. He is a jealous God, is he not? A murderer? A plague-bearer? A masochist? A submissive's ultimate master?

 Quote:
So Isnt Modern satanism just a bunch of diobolical ideals grouped together and labled "satanism" more out of a f**k you to the Christians than actual demonic worship.

Some define it as such, but true Satanists tend to mature and grow out of that anti-religious zeal that so prompted them to seek other paths in the first place. It gets boring. It's unnecessary. It's unproductive.

_________________________
Nothing is sacred.

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#11903 - 09/27/08 08:43 AM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: lux]
Fist Moderator Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/31/07
Posts: 1453
Loc: B'mo Cautious MF
Well first, welcome. If you are here to learn about Satanism then you are in the right place.

"lux" eh? The Latin root for light or shining, as in Lucifer - The Morning Star. Well, at least you are off to a good start.

The first thing you need to wrap your mind around is the difference between Modern Satanism as codified by Anton LaVey, and 'traditional' or theistic Satanism as in the worship of a supernatural fallen angel. You really need to do your own research at this point and come back here with questions for clarification. Read The Satanic Bible. It is a free pdf here in our Media Room. You should then understand the historical relationship between The Church, the Knights Templar, Friday the 13th, Baphomet and Freemasonry. In short, theistic Satanism is a construct of The Church to stir up the unwashed masses.

I have posted some other resources here that may aid you in your understanding of the 'enemy':

http://www.the600club.com/dir/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/6069#Post6069

In truth, you are often your own worst enemy. The most terrifying thing that a neophyte can learn is just how much of their own life they control and almost everything - good or bad - in their own lives is largely of their own creation. Heaven and Hell is right here on earth. If you truly get out and live life you will find traditional religion to be little more than silly fairy tales. The core of Satanism is vital existence.
_________________________
I am the Devil and I am here to do the Devil's work.

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#11907 - 09/27/08 11:34 AM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: Fist]
lux Offline
Banned
pledge


Registered: 09/26/08
Posts: 64
Loc: Newcastle UK
First off thanks for the welcome and the replys, please forgive any spelling mistakes, I am not the best.... catholic education and all!!! but it was down to my lack of interest in school that left me uneducated rather than the Catholic education system.

"Well so far you've typed, talked and done the opposite to what you said. Surprise, your a Catholic. tee he he"

Yeah well I think you can understand that my posts, will inevitably be coming from a ever so slightly biased point of view, perhaps even prejudiced point of view.. do you think you could be accepting of this and give me a bit leeway?


"So, can I ask....who or what is your nemesis? Satan? Satanists or your lack of understanding of your own nature. The nautre of humanity?"

Well from a Catholic stand point, both satan and Satanism, satanists of course are enemies of God, but human beings are gods creatures.

"Yes, I like to think that Santa Claus is a really hot looking 29 year old man about 6'4" with rippling abs and red thong."

now that is extreemly funny.... interesting you should use the term santa, an anagram of satan. Yes Santa Cluas may be loosly based on St Nicholas, but "santa Claus" embodies the whole materialistic side of Christmas and "santa cluas is coming" to give you "material things" is used to over shadow the birth of Christ...ah but i am begining to rammbling on.

"Well that's just bullshit. Christians don't store up treasure Pah! And you're Catholic you say, ever heard of the Vatican City? Have their own money there don't they? Riches anyone? Don't store treasure, bah, puleeeeese, next thing you'll be saying you are honest with yourself and don't look at porn."

Ok perhaps I should have rephrased that to say Christianity teaches us that we sould not build up treasure on earth, by the way money and material wealth are not sinful, if used in the right way, it is when money and material wealth are used to lord power over people and exploite those who have less, it also becomes sinful when material wealth becomes an obsention… a desire for more is your driving force often at the expense of others.

“Why don't you download and read the free copy of the Satanic Bible and educate yourself about what modern Satanism is....”

I am considering it, I am pretty sure i will, if not for education purposes then out of entrigue.

As for showing me your double D’s – why do I have to read the TSB? Wouldn’t a real Satanist just show me them any way to create lust in Christians mind?

Go on, show me them….. pweeeese.

“Who's nemesis are we talking about? Ours or yours?”

Ours…i.e Christians

“Satan represents all of man's base desires: Greed, gluttony, lust, power.”

“Represents” so there is no Diablo persay?

“...fuck earth, right? No wonder this planet's in such a mess”

Oh come on, you know that isn’t the case, the Vatican state is the only country in the world who’s carbon emmisions are offset. We believe we are guardians of the Earth and guardians of its creatures.

“This is where you start confusing modern Satanists with the blasphemous worshippers of Christianity, the stereotypical "Satanist" that sacrfices animals and small children. When we die, we simply cease to exist. Some might believe that some sort of energy is released when we pass on, but humans have no tangible soul that "transcends" into another plane of existence.”

You see that’s just Atheism.

“Define "evil"

Evil is the wilful rejection of The Divine will of the most holy Trinity in the full belief of their existence.

“Christ is not a God, he is supposed to be the SON of God...and I doubt that God really appreciates so many of his flock paying homage to Christ than to him. He is a jealous God, is he not? A murderer? A plague-bearer? A masochist? A submissive's ultimate master?”

Paying homage to Christ, “I and the father are one” “The Son Glorifies the father and the father glorifies the son”
God is triune in nature, that is Father Son and Holy Spirit, all three are “God”
Three persons one God, God is Love, Three persons one love. Yes God is a Jealous God but one can be both Jealous and forgiving.

A murderer?

What you mean his creatures die, that’s like saying a man who knocks down a statue that he built is a murderer!

“"lux" eh? The Latin root for light or shining, as in Lucifer - The Morning Star. Well, at least you are off to a good start”


First off, yeah you got me, “Lux” light as in “dues lux nostra” the good start not so good.

EEK!!!

I think either you or I have our wires crossed, I always believed the “Morning star” refered to Jesus.

Rev 22:16
"I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."

2 Peter 1:19

we have the word of the prophets made more certain, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts.

“The first thing you need to wrap your mind around is the difference between Modern Satanism as codified by Anton LaVey, and 'traditional' or theistic Satanism as in the worship of a supernatural fallen angel. You really need to do your own research at this point and come back here with questions for clarification. Read The Satanic Bible. It is a free pdf here in our Media Room. You should then understand the historical relationship between The Church, the Knights Templar, Friday the 13th, Baphomet and Freemasonry. In short, theistic Satanism is a construct of The Church to stir up the unwashed masses”

Well like I said I think “modern” Satanism isn’t really Satanism, its more akin to openly honest Atheism, which is diabolical but not Satanism. I think I will read that TSB it sounds interesting. I would say “modern Satanism” would be better called “diabolicalism” since satan woship is not part of the “religion” or at least it is not openly visible.

I think you refer to the “church” as in the Catholic Church but you could be referring to a satanic church so I am not sure what you mean by construct of the Church. But I do know that “Traditional” Satanism exists and that Catholic priests have been defrocked for participating in “The Black Mass”

I have also breifly met traditional Satanists.

And as for heaven and hell being right here on earth, I absolutely agree with that statement although I probably mean it in a entirely different way.

“traditional religion to be little more than silly fairy tales”

Again just athiesm


Edited by lux (09/27/08 11:36 AM)

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#11911 - 09/27/08 04:50 PM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: lux]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1646
Loc: Orlando, FL
*Ahem*

Greetings, sir.

I think you're getting the term "Atheism" a bit messed up. You said that Satanism is "just" Atheism, implying that we would be better of just calling ourselves atheists instead of putting a label like "Satanism" on ourselves.

However, you should know that "Atheism" simply means that one does not believe in God. That's it. It is not a religion. It is merely a stance taken towards the idea of a so-called "higher power". (Many Buddhists, for example, are atheists)

Unlike most other nonbelievers, we still see the value in religion and ritual, and have codified our religion into Satanism, which is (according to many, this is my own view) a philosophical religion.

Thus we do not feel that we need a supernatural pretense to justify our ideas. Satanism is a real-world ideology of the here-and-now, and this is where we draw our basis from, instead of an unobservable "world beyond". This ideology is hard to define, but the Satanic Bible is a good place to start.

(You really can't say Satanism and Atheism are one in the same, because not all atheists are Satanists. Many of them, for example, are just as altruistic and idealistic as Christians, believing in things like universal human equality.)

As far as the Judeo-Christian god "Yahweh" goes, we could go on for hours citing all the parts of the Bible where this character openly endorses all kinds of horrendous atrocities. It's really not a rut I wanna fall into, though...

Regarding the character of "Satan", keep in mind we do not view him as a "fallen angel" or similar Christian perspective. There is no dualism in Satanism. Satan is our nature, not a foreign entity that tries to influence us, as Christians see it. We see ourselves as acting in accordance with truth, not rebelling against it.

And for materialism, the Satanic idea is "indulgence, not compulsion", as LaVey put it. Technically, your stance is the same as ours on this one- that we should be able to live as comfortably as we can without causing harm to ourselves or others.

Nonetheless, at the core, traditional religions have undeniably vilified the material world. For them, money is a "necessary evil" because they teach that the world itself is under the sway of the devil (or Demiurge, if Gnosticism's your thing), and that salvation comes from an otherworldly ideal that transcends the material.

It seems to me that someone has took the ideas of athiesm, materialism, and mixed it with serving the self rather than others and called it satanism.

Many people have had expressed this view- an oversimplification, but you still nailed the basic premises of Satanism. The only thing you missed is the deification of these ideas, which is what makes it distinct as a Religion.



Edited by The Zebu (09/27/08 05:00 PM)
_________________________
«Recibe, ¡oh Lucifer! la sangre de esta víctima que sacrifico en tu honor.»

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#11912 - 09/27/08 05:25 PM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: lux]
Nykky Offline
stranger


Registered: 09/27/08
Posts: 22
Loc: Northern CA
 Originally Posted By: lux

“Define "evil"

Evil is the wilful rejection of The Divine will of the most holy Trinity in the full belief of their existence.



So evil is not a pedophile or murderer as long as they accept "the divine will of the most holy trinity"?

What about a Satanist who has tried to live their life as honest as possible (Yes I said "as possible", nobody is perfect). How about one who donates their time at their child's school and donates money to what they feel are worthy causes? How about someone who Volunteers to help hand out blankets and jackets to the homeless every winter or helps down at the local shelter to serve food? I am no perfect person but I do believe in helping if I can. Yet I choose not to accept "the divine will of the most holy trinity". So this makes me evil in your eyes? I know you don't know me personally so you cannot possibly know the "sins" I have committed. That aside I have never harmed another human or animal in a malicious way, nor do I steal. I have also not coveted thy neighbors wife or husband. But I have committed several other "sinful" acts. But yet I am deemed evil in the eyes of Christianity.

I can say the same about many of the believers in your religion. Molestation, Murder, Adultery, Stealing... But not in the Christian Churches eyes am I right? As long as they come back and "believe", realize what they have done is wrong (until they decided they cannot help themselves and do it again). But then it just starts over. If I am wrong please tell me.

 Originally Posted By: lux


"Well from a Catholic stand point, both Satan and Satanism, satanists of course are enemies of God, but human beings are gods creatures."



So Satanists are not human beings? Did you mean exactly as this is worded or did you word it wrong? You can't possibly believe that a Satanist is not a human being, can you? So people who belong to other religions different from yours who do not believe in your God are not human beings as well?

I'm not trying to be condescending I'm just trying to understand what you mean. I have not read anywhere in the bibles that I have read where it talks about people not believing in Jesus not being human. I could have misunderstood that part if it is there. Do you have a passage that says something along those lines?

I am new to Satanism and I am choosing to take this path, this is still all new to me, some of what you stated about what you believe are some of the reasons I am choosing to go down this road.

About reading the Satanic Bible, why do you need to think about it so much? I don't understand, is it because you are afraid of the consequences you feel you will face in front of your God?

To others not choosing this way of thinking it would be a book and nothing else right?

Also, it is not becoming of a Catholic to beg to see someones DD's. This would also be considered a sin, Lust, am I not right? If I am wrong please tell me. So your consequences for reading the Satanic Bible should not apply to you I suppose. That is assuming it is sinful in your belief system to read it. I don't see anything in the 10 Commandments saying you cannot read it unless you want to break down number 2 and 3.

The hypocrisy. You doing something that would be considered a sin in your religion is OK as long as after the sin you go back to worshiping your God and living on the right path until you feel you are forgiven. So it would be OK to Lust after ZephyrGirl and her DD's because you will be forgiven?

This goes right back up to your definition of evil.

Ah heck, I said I was going to to lurk for awhile.

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#11913 - 09/27/08 06:56 PM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: lux]
ZephyrGirl Offline
R.I.P.
active member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 706
Loc: Adelaide Australia
 Quote:
As for showing me your double D’s – why do I have to read the TSB? Wouldn’t a real Satanist just show me them any way to create lust in Christians mind?

Go on, show me them….. pweeeese.



Maybe we're better at mind games than that. A real satanic witch can create lust out of suggestion - see? I don't actually have to show you my tit's to do so after all this is a written forum.....the idea is as strong as the picture.

I bet you imagined a fine set of boobs. ;\)

As for the rest of the God bothering you write, I'm not sure what it is you actually want from the people here.

Yes modern Satanism is for the most part Aetheism, some humanism and alot of reality isms.

However, Satan is a symbol of adversary, knowledge and non conformitism and taking responsibility for ones personal power.

Most here aren't into labels of any type and you are not the first to try and pin them on us. Aetheism doesn't cover a beleif in the occult on it's own either.

There are plenty here who still beleive in magick and ritual, but not in God or Satan.

We'll see how long you last before you work out that you can be a generous loving Satanist, it's not just about being a negetive person, but about truly accepting yourself, both conscious and sub-conscious, dark and light, good and bad, to become more than you were.

Zeph
_________________________
Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass -
It's about learning to dance in the rain.


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#11914 - 09/27/08 06:58 PM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: lux]
Octavius Offline
member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 557
Loc: Left the party
I have a short video you should watch that may shed some light on your curiosities and answer some questions. Comport yourself with respect and you'll find most of us approachable and willing to entertain your questions.

http://www.the600club.com/dir/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/8445#Post8445

Octavius
_________________________
So long, and thanks for all the fish.

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#11923 - 09/27/08 09:43 PM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: Octavius]
Fabiano Offline
member


Registered: 09/06/08
Posts: 374
Well,

I think my fellow satanists already answered most of your questions.

I particularly appreciated Nemesis & The Zebu posts.

I think every religion (including modern Satanism) "push people to better themselves". Being religious will "force" you to define your own values, think about yourself, your live, your behaviour,...

Atheists are not "encouraged" like that, what does not prevent them to have the same kind of reflection, alike philosophers.
What makes atheists different from "religious" is that they don't share common values, neither any ritual or code of conduct.

If religions "push us to better ourselves" the different religion does not exactly define the better (so the good) in the same way.

You could view Satanism a a bunch of diabolic ideas labelled as Satanism. But I don't think the label was choosen at random.

Satanism is a well choosen label as I think it goes in rebellion against some unsustainable Christian positions.

"Love your ennemies as your friends". Land on guy! It's not like that that it works in this world. I love my friends and I'm hard with my ennemies !

"Sex is bad execpt if covered by the sacred love of a sacred union". Come on guy, sex is like chocolate : it's GOOD ! If you can't realise that, your feet are not well on earth. Come back to reality !

Suppose you got marry with someone. You love her, she loves you, you have very good relationships and even complicity, but once at bed, it's the nightmare. You're not on the same wavelength, you take (both) no pleasure \:\(
What will you do? Sacrify your sexual life (and your beloved one too) on God's altar?
Clearly, I would not do that !

Fabiano

P.S. I like having a God's advocate amongst us (or should I say Devil's advocate ? \:D )


Edited by Fabiano (09/27/08 09:53 PM)

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#11925 - 09/27/08 10:35 PM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: lux]
Fabiano Offline
member


Registered: 09/06/08
Posts: 374
 Quote:
“Define "evil"

Evil is the wilful rejection of The Divine will of the most holy Trinity in the full belief of their existence.



I think Nemesis hit a key point : definition of evil. With the definition you propose, most of people will just not understand (look at Nikky's reaction). This is a theological definition.
I think we're here more interrested in a more "concrete" one. Philisophical/ethical.
When you said smthg like "humans can't be so evil, there is some GOOD in every man" you were closer to this ethical idea of "evil". No you hide behind something being a non-sense for atheists.

So what is evil? The question remains unanswered...

I try ? (I like challenges \:D )

1st try : Evil is "not good". Just the opposite of "good"...
What's good ? Good is what you concretly do (make, say, thing, feel, ...) when you love.
What's love? And here I already gave my def. in an other post :

 Quote:
Here is a definition of Love given by Scott Peck and which is to me the best one I ever seen. It reflects my own point of view by defining Love as "The will to extend one's self for the purpose of nurturing one's own or another's spiritual growth."
"The less travelled path" S. Peck

It's like a mother who does not always do what her kid wants but do what she sincerely thinks will make her kid to "be better", to grow.

So on this basis, the "evil" would be the result of hate and would be the The will to extend one's self for the purpose of hampering one's own or another's spiritual growth.

This is to y point of view "GREATER EVIL". Where you choose deliberately to harm someone else, whatever the mean.

"Lesser Evil" would be for harming without intention (often by stupidity).

Satanist can be evil, but christians too. Torquemada is a good example !

The difference is the the Satanists admit they are "evil" with their ennemies. (de facto, as most of people, religious or not).

Fabiano

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#11927 - 09/28/08 02:46 AM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: Fabiano]
Butterz Offline
pledge


Registered: 09/26/08
Posts: 77
Loc: Georgia
As A new member i never expected to see this. catholics and satanists discussing religion? I'd like to share my idea of "evil". Evil is when one masterminds a plan and knowingly allows others to suffer to reach ones own goal. I find the arguement here quite funny. i "claimed" to be christian for many years until a friend explained Satanism to me. really nothing changed in my life, other than being called a devil worshiper, but after reading TSB and reading the Holy Bible, I can say the diference is minimal. main differences,

1. Christians believe Jesus was the son of God or is God. I just think he was a good philosipher and great at manipulating people.

2. Christians wait for God to help them or give them guidance, in Satanism you gotta look out for yourself.

3. Satanist dont waste time/energy/money on going somewhere on sunday to have a man tell them they will burn in hell if the offering plate doesnt fill up.

To me thats the best scam especially in southern baptist. $20 a week will wash away your sins and save your soul. lmao

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#11930 - 09/28/08 03:28 AM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: Fabiano]
Nykky Offline
stranger


Registered: 09/27/08
Posts: 22
Loc: Northern CA
 Originally Posted By: Fabiano
 Quote:
“Define "evil"

Evil is the wilful rejection of The Divine will of the most holy Trinity in the full belief of their existence.



I think Nemesis hit a key point : definition of evil. With the definition you propose, most of people will just not understand (look at Nikky's reaction).



True, I do not understand his definition of evil. OK wait, maybe I just think of the word evil in a different way as we all probably have our own definitions of what we think evil is.

My definition of an evil person would be someone who consciously commits acts to harm another person or animal. Someone who enjoys hurting others, whether it be molesting, stealing, destroying property...To me this would be an evil person.

If your definition of an evil person is similar to mine besides the fact that they shun God I have a question. If this same evil person were to find God, confess his sins, read the bible, attend church, would they still be evil to you? How about if someone raped and killed 15 children but they believe in God? Would you consider this a good person just for that reason.

The definition you give implies they would not be for the fact that they are now accepting the holy trinity in their life. I guess this would fall under the you'll be forgiven for all your sins if you let God into your life and accept him as your savior.

Ahhh I can go on and on, but I just don't get his statement If you look up evil there is so many definitions. Which one is right? I don't believe any of them are fact I think everyone has their own definition of evil but for you to make such a broad statement about what an evil person is, is just ignorant. It just includes too many people who truly you would not consider evil based solely upon the fact they do not share the same religious beliefs as you. I'm sure you can even think of a few in your life right now.

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#11934 - 09/28/08 07:26 AM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: Nykky]
lux Offline
Banned
pledge


Registered: 09/26/08
Posts: 64
Loc: Newcastle UK
Wow, there is a lot to respond to!

Greetings, sir.

“I think you're getting the term "Atheism" a bit messed up. You said that Satanism is "just" Atheism, implying that we would be better of just calling ourselves atheists instead of putting a label like "Satanism" on ourselves.”

Well if honestly followed to its logical conclusion I think Atheism could only lead to what you refer to as “Satanism” the service of the self. In that sense I could say that Atheists are only Satanists who have not realised it yet. And “Modern Satanism” the true embodiment of Atheism



“Regarding the character of "Satan", keep in mind we do not view him as a "fallen angel" or similar Christian perspective. There is no dualism in Satanism. Satan is our nature, not a foreign entity that tries to influence us, as Christians see it. We see ourselves as acting in accordance with truth, not rebelling against it.”

After listening to Octavia via his video, I realise that the term “Satanism” is not important, but to the others it may put them off, I suppose it may also attract them but either way the label is deceptive, I suppose really your “humanists” in a way or perhaps really humanists are just satanists. However in another sense Satanism is a correct term because it was satan himself who set up this “religion” or “philosophy all those years ago when he told Adam and Eve to reject God and become their own masters, to define for themselves what is good and what is evil, “here eat the fruit that God said was evil to eat it is to throw off the shackles of God and you can become god’s yourselves…defining for yourself what is good and what is evil, thus becoming masters of your own destiny…. In that sense, you are following the philosophy of satan…so I suppose Satanist could be a correct term….

Hmmm perhaps there is more to this than meets the eye, I am learning or at least you have me thinking!!


“And for materialism, the Satanic idea is "indulgence, not compulsion", as LaVey put it. Technically, your stance is the same as ours on this one- that we should be able to live as comfortably as we can without causing harm to ourselves or others.”

We go a bit further our stance is that we should live only according to our needs, this way we can give more to help others, Christianity teaches that really being content with just not harming others is not enough, that really we should be trying to help those less fortunate

“Nonetheless, at the core, traditional religions have undeniably vilified the material world. For them, money is a "necessary evil" because they teach that the world itself is under the sway of the devil (or Demiurge, if Gnosticism's your thing), and that salvation comes from an otherworldly ideal that transcends the material.”

“I don’t think religion (at least not Catholicism) sees money as evil, how can money itself be evil, money can be used for good just as much as it can be used for bad.”

Many people have had expressed this view- an oversimplification, but you still nailed the basic premises of Satanism. The only thing you missed is the deification of these ideas, which is what makes it distinct as a Religion.

You set the ideas themselves up as God’s or Yourself’s as Gods… or perhaps both?


“So evil is not a pedophile or murderer as long as they accept "the divine will of the most holy trinity"?”

Well these people who do this are the most hated in society, who is evil if not these people right.

Well actually a pedophile or a murder are not evil, since there actions are against the devine will of the most holy trinity the actions are sinful but they themselves are not their actions, these are sins. A sin is an action against the divine will, these sins are evil actions but not evil itself, for evil itself is total rejection to the point of opposition of the divine will in full knowledge of God’s existence…. So if a person rejects the divine will of God while believing in his existance and lives in total opposition to God’s will then he is evil. But I know of no person who does not live at least in moments according to the divine will, therefore no person is truly evil.

“What about a Satanist who has tried to live their life as honest as possible (Yes I said "as possible", nobody is perfect). How about one who donates their time at their child's school and donates money to what they feel are worthy causes? How about someone who Volunteers to help hand out blankets and jackets to the homeless every winter or helps down at the local shelter to serve food? I am no perfect person but I do believe in helping if I can. Yet I choose not to accept "the divine will of the most holy trinity". So this makes me evil in your eyes? I know you don't know me personally so you cannot possibly know the "sins" I have committed. That aside I have never harmed another human or animal in a malicious way, nor do I steal. I have also not coveted thy neighbors wife or husband. But I have committed several other "sinful" acts. But yet I am deemed evil in the eyes of Christianity.”

No human being is deemed evil by Christianity, there is no sin that can not be forgiven and only one that will not be forgiven. That is the total rejection to the point of total oppositon of the divine will of the most holy trinity, as Jesus puts it… Anyone who sins against the spirit will not be forgiven in this world or the next, but no man that I know of has accomplished living to such a “low” standard. Really I think the only one’s who will not be forgiven if they ask is Satan himself and the angels who followed him in rebellion.

“So Satanists are not human beings?”

Of course they are human beings, one could say Satanists set themselves up as enemies of God, but are still human beings and he still loves them. So even Satanists themselves are not really our enemy, we have no enemys apart from the Devil and his demonic cohorts, obviously we can be their enemy and try to destroy that which we try to build.

“About reading the Satanic Bible, why do you need to think about it so much? I don't understand, is it because you are afraid of the consequences you feel you will face in front of your God?“

I have to discern if I am strong enough to read it, to be challenged by it, can I cope with the challenges it throws at me, I also have to consider that LeVay was learnerd in the art of hypnosis, does he use what he has learned in the TSB in order to get the reader to be more accepting of its philosophy… I have to seriously consider that a possibility and really so should anyone who has read it or is thinking of reading it.

“Also, it is not becoming of a Catholic to beg to see someones DD's”

I was not serious, one can have a laugh and a joke.

“That is assuming it is sinful in your belief system to read it.”

Well it is not a sin, but the catechism tells you to be very warry of reading what I will term “bad books” obviously those with a weak understanding of the faith can be easily challenged.

“You doing something that would be considered a sin in your religion is OK as long as after the sin you go back to worshiping your God and living on the right path until you feel you are forgiven”

It is not ok to sin, it is even less ok to wilfully sin and it is sinful to take the mercy of Christ for granted. However sins can be forgiven. It is a sin not to forgive yourself when God has forgiven you and also a sin to doubt his forgivness after recieveing absolution. We do not worship God so we get forgiven by him, we worship God and sing his praise because we are forgiven by him.

“I bet you imagined a fine set of boobs”

Not really, I was too busy trying to think of a jokey reply, but I was not taking the water out of you, but myself and other Christians inability to resist temptation perfectly. I do like to laugh at myself, I would much rather take the water out of myself as someone else since taking the urine can be hurtful to some people, only sometimes it has a negative effect, by my own doing often it makes others feel it is ok to take the mick out of me, when sometimes it is not, sometimes its hurtful so I know if I take the mick out of someone else I risk hurting them, I would rather risk being hurt myself by others than risk hurting them.

“I have a short video you should watch that may shed some light on your curiosities and answer some questions. Comport yourself with respect and you'll find most of us approachable and willing to entertain your questions.”

Thanks octavias I did learn something, as I already mentined your video.

“"Love your ennemies as your friends". Land on guy! It's not like that that it works in this world. I love my friends and I'm hard with my ennemies !”

Yes that is the way of the world but it can be changed, do not listen to LaVey.. hope is a good thing, forgivness is a good thing, if you love and forgive your enemies they wont be your enemies for very long. We can change the world and the first step is always changing ourselves.

“Sex is bad execpt if covered by the sacred love of a sacred union". Come on guy, sex is like chocolate : it's GOOD ! If you can't realise that, your feet are not well on earth. Come back to reality”

Sex isn’t bad in the sense your talking about, it is very enjoyable… something that you enjoy cant be bad can it?

But sex is bad in the sense that it is a sin…I.e an action against the divine will when done so outside of marriage. But to those who have no belief in the existence of God when we say sex is bad outside of marriage it can sound like nonsense.. unless of course he sees the practical side to the marriage bond, i.e to provide a stable and secure home for a resulting child, the potential to significantly reduce sexually transmitted infections etc.

“Suppose you got marry with someone. You love her, she loves you, you have very good relationships and even complicity, but once at bed, it's the nightmare. You're not on the same wavelength, you take (both) no pleasure
What will you do? Sacrify your sexual life (and your beloved one too) on God's altar?
Clearly, I would not do that !”

Well I would probably try to get help a sex therapist but if that did not work, then if I am married then I married them because that is the person I love and they married me because I am the person they love, how could I possibly be with another woman… I can not see how sex between two people who love each other so much they wish to dedicate their life to each other could be anything but magnificent, even if there were some medical condition where no physical stimulation could be felt, then the emotional stimulation of being open to having a child together would be magnificent, I could not leave the woman I love even if she could not have sex, it would be very frustraiting wanting to express this love through sex and not being able to, but I could not walk away from the woman I love. And if she loved me, I would expect that she could not walk away from me.

“P.S. I like having a God's advocate amongst us”

Thank you.

I hope I am being a good ambassador of Catholicism, those who lambast , ridicule, condemn, chastise those are the ones who have only a very little understanding of the Christian faith and fear you, I do not profess to have a great lot of understanding myself but enough not to fear the challenges your philiosophy will bring me.


“definition of evil. With the definition you propose, most of people will just not understand (look at Nikky's reaction). This is a theological definition.
I think we're here more interrested in a more "concrete" one. Philisophical/ethical.
When you said smthg like "humans can't be so evil, there is some GOOD in every man" you were closer to this ethical idea of "evil". No you hide behind something being a non-sense for atheists.”

Without God there is no Good or Bad, only what we ourselves as each individual defines for themselves what is Good or Evil. Someone on here suggested murderers evil and pedophiles, he is not a believer in God and has defined that for himself, the pedophile and murderer may define these actions as Good, without a God they would be no more or no less right or wrong than the person who defined it evil. However most people who do not believe in God would still set those standards up for themselves..why?... Well I believe that there is a moral law written on our hearts by God. However to the non believer of God, that is nonsense… this general consensus would probably put down to social conditioning if that is believed any society based on such an ideology can be manipulated to believe differently, look at homosexuality for instance years ago it was illegal and considered disordered. Most people are straight and if they are honest find homosexuality repulsive… that is what I believe to be the moral law that is written inside of human beings, even the homosexual will have the feeling of it being “wrong” and s/he will probably get some gratification out of that, perhaps it is even why they are gay in the first place. Yet it has been made acceptable in society because we are lead to believe that there is no moral law, that right and wrong is what is defined by human beings, therefore we can change what we perceive as right and wrong….but it dosnt wash deep down both the straight guy and the gay guy have that feeling of it being wrong only one is repulsed by it and the other attracted by its perverseness.
But of course if I am wrong, if there is no moral law and no God then homosexuality isn’t wrong, nothing is wrong only what we decide as individuals.

One could say right and wrong could be decided by society, true but then your putting the social order as a God, so instead of being “slaves” to god, the general populance becomes slaves to fellow “human beings” who may consider exploitation good. But if we set ourselves up as God and proclaim It is not government who decide good and evil, it is each individual then we would be thrust into the anarchy, the law of the jungle would be back, survival of the fittest, kill or be killed.

Once we set ourselves up as God’s we are in for a terrible fall.

“As A new member i never expected to see this. catholics and satanists discussing religion?”

In a civilized way too!

“Christians wait for God to help them or give them guidance, in Satanism you gotta look out for yourself.”

What we believe ultimately we will create, can you imagine a world like that everyone looking of for themselves, the law of the jungle, that is what LaVey means when he talks of a new satanic age, that is what is being created as speak… it’s a shit world mankind is trying to make today. Christians offer a chance to make a much better world.

I must at this point tell you about mother Teresa, she is a good Catholic, no? on her way to sainthood, yet she doubted her belief in God, was almost convinced she didn’t believe in God but she still had faith in God.

“Satanist dont waste time/energy/money on going somewhere on sunday to have a man tell them they will burn in hell if the offering plate doesnt fill up”

The Catholic Church isn’t like that we are more centred on God than on Fire and Brimstone, the collection plate is passed around and each gives according to their own level.


“To me thats the best scam especially in southern baptist. $20 a week will wash away your sins and save your soul. Lmao”

Yeah, there a lot of scams, a lot of pastors are just after lining their pockets.

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#11970 - 09/28/08 10:29 PM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: lux]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1646
Loc: Orlando, FL
But if we set ourselves up as God and proclaim It is not government who decide good and evil, it is each individual then we would be thrust into the anarchy, the law of the jungle would be back, survival of the fittest, kill or be killed.

..And this is exactly the paradigm from which Satanism is drawn. Man is essentially an animal, and the same laws that govern "animal nature" are the ones that rule over human behavior. We ALREADY live in a kill-or-be-killed world. The law of the jungle can't come back because it never left us in the first place.

This is the world we live in, so we act accordingly.

But again, I find it amusing that you put "law of the jungle" and "anarchy" into the same statement- since anarchy implies that there are no laws.

What always annoys me about traditional religious philosophy is that its proponents always insist that man, at his core, is a savage, backstabbing monster, and that without religion we would be eating babies and raping dogs.

The number of civil nontheists clearly demonstrates the opposite, and if one observes the animal kingdom, we see ordered societies and families of different species.... which, surprisingly, DON'T rape and kill each other daily (alright, sometimes they do, but humans do that too... any society will have some kind of social deviance). The truth is that even animals have a sort of morality... the only difference between us and them is that we are intelligent enough to give it a philosophical label.

Animals don't worship a god. And since we're animals too, and we can obtain ideas about morality without theistic religion, why would we have to?

At the core of the issue, Satanists are capable of seeing the world and morality through an atheistic, materialist, nature-centered view.

Once we set ourselves up as God’s we are in for a terrible fall.

Again, this cannot be substantiated without invoking supernatural ideas like God and Karma, which can't be proven scientifically.

The material world is all we can observe, so we see no logical reason to live our lives otherwise.


Edited by The Zebu (09/28/08 11:08 PM)
_________________________
«Recibe, ¡oh Lucifer! la sangre de esta víctima que sacrifico en tu honor.»

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#11996 - 09/29/08 07:01 PM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: The Zebu]
lux Offline
Banned
pledge


Registered: 09/26/08
Posts: 64
Loc: Newcastle UK
"..And this is exactly the paradigm from which Satanism is drawn. Man is essentially an animal, and the same laws that govern "animal nature" are the ones that rule over human behavior. We ALREADY live in a kill-or-be-killed world. The law of the jungle can't come back because it never left us in the first place."

Really, would not have thought anyone would want that

Man is a Mammal, I dont know about being called an animal a dumb beast who has not got the level of inteligence to know better than to merely submit to the strongest instinctive urge, man probably even satanists would often ignore the strong instinct in order to follow a lesser instinct because it was the right thing to do.

At this point I want to ask a question since Satanism is all about self, self servitude, self preservation and being ture to the animalistic phiolosophy of Satanism. If two satanists were out for a walk and something terrible happend to befall one of the satanists...with great risk to oneself would a fellow satanist help the first satanist?

If your right about the law of the jungle never leaving us, then Darwin was wrong...But he wasnt, When people see others in africa starving, people often of a different race suffering, the majority of people would like to ease that suffering, help in someway and i am sure more people would donate if charities were not corrupt and if the problem was merely that easy as to throw cash at it. The law of the jungle states, not only should a man not bother about such people who are unable to provide for themselves sufficiantly because they are so weak but if needs be he should take what little they have to further his own advancement.. most people are not like that, society is not like that, your probably right the powers that be are like that, that is why there is a problem in africa in the first place because of the greed of western power, but the government is not the society the people are the society. Yes these men have power, possition, authoity etc and they are cold hearted gutless wonders that would sell their own grandmother for a bit more....


I would not sell out my bretheren Christian or otherwise in order to be like them, not for all the power and glory in the world....Chrsitians and weak people will always be subjects of such people, but Christian distain, our open rejection of power and greed to the detriment of people serves as a sign of contridition to those who would do such things and a "ROCK" of hope to those who must endure it. Christianity has always been the religion of the slave, of the week, the poor, the oppressed...because Christianity is there salvation, (Jesus – “King of Slaves” – TSB) their hope against those b*ards in power who have always expolited them. Christianity is not about fairy tales and bed time storys, its a hard religion that takes self disiplin, warriors, fighters..fearless..not in a military sense, but active opposition, outspoken and will not shut up, would rather die than deny the true way of life for all.. you people havent seen it yet, you live in a post Christian west where still we are very christianized...but we (Catholics) will be a voice for the oppressed, the weak, the marginalised...because they are human beings....NOT ANIMALS!

“But again, I find it amusing that you put "law of the jungle" and "anarchy" into the same statement- since anarchy implies that there are no laws.”

Law of the Jungle is lawlessness.

“What always annoys me about traditional religious philosophy is that its proponents always insist that man, at his core, is a savage, backstabbing monster, and that without religion we would be eating babies and raping dogs.”

That is not true, Christianity believes that man is created by God and essentially Good, however we believe that mankind has free will to do good or do bad, when given free will we are bound to find some men who will choose to do what is bad often suggesting that bad is Good. It is the at the hands of the violent man the pacifist is killed, it is at the hands of the rich that the poor are exploited and given poor working conditions, it is at the hands of master that the slave is beaten… does not your bible not advocate, what you deny?

"Blessed are the strong, for they shall possess the earth - Cursed are the weak, for they
shall inherit the yoke!

Blessed are the powerful, for they shall be reverenced among men - Cursed are the
feeble, for they shall be blotted out!

Blessed are the bold, for they shall be masters of the world - Cursed are the
righteously humble, for they shall be trodden under cloven hoofs!

Blessed are the iron-handed, for the unfit shall flee before them

Thrice cursed are the weak whose insecurity makes them vile, for they shall serve and
suffer!" - TSB

As for eating babies and raping dogs….Since this "new age of Satanism" in our society began do we not see the legalised killing of babies based on the assumption the woman is worth more…and te child less.. why because she is stronger more developed, the child weaker less developed…. And do we not see a certain amount of quiet tollereance of those who practice beastiality?


For what reason do you want power over the weaker, for your own glory, for your own betterment, what about the weak, what about other people… fu** the human race, I live for me and me alone, fu** the earth and all who inhabit it for if I can I will rule them, because I am my own God and I have no others before me, the human race is merely animals, but I, I shall make myself a God amongst them and they will bow down to me for woe are they who do not for victory is the root of all that is right. - But have you not heard - "put down your knife, for those who live by the sword shall die by the sword?"

"The number of civil nontheists clearly demonstrates the opposite, and if one observes the animal kingdom, we see ordered societies and families of different species.... which, surprisingly, DON'T rape and kill each other daily (alright, sometimes they do, but humans do that too... any society will have some kind of social deviance)."

But should this social deviance be encouraged as your bible suggests?

"Are we not all predatory animals by instinct? If humans ceased wholly from preying upon each other, could they continue to exist?

if a man smite you on one cheek, SMASH him
on the other!; smite him hip and thigh, for self-preservation is the highest law!

Make yourself a Terror to your adversary

Each person must decide for himself what form of sexual activity best suits his individual needs"

- TSB

"The truth is that even animals have a sort of morality... the only difference between us and them is that we are intelligent enough to give it a philosophical label."

Is Satanism truly the thing you desire for the human race, the strong destroying the weak, the perverse as "free" as they will.

“Animals don't worship a god. And since we're animals too, and we can obtain ideas about morality without theistic religion, why would we have to?”

Why are you blinded by the light of Christ, for what will the weak look to for strength against their adversary/adversaries than to that which is stronger, God is our hope, our shield, he is the great protector…he gives us strength in our weakness (St Paul) he gives us wisdom in our foolishness...ask not why would we have to, but why would they want to!

“At the core of the issue, Satanists are capable of seeing the world and morality through an atheistic, materialist, nature-centered view.”

Therein perhaps lies the difference, for is it not clear now that so can the Christian? For has he not yet suffered enough at its hands? However can any athiest, satanist or no, truly see the world and morality from a Catholic point of view, do they not have ears and yet fail to hear, eyes but yet fail to see, interlect yet fail to perceive?


“Again, this cannot be substantiated without invoking supernatural ideas like God and Karma, which can't be proven scientifically.”

I was talking on a much more earthly basis than you imagine. We as human beings are in a terrible fall if we abandon God…

“If humans ceased wholly from preying, upon each other, could they continue to exist?”

Look at what your advocating, not what your denouncing!!


“The material world is all we can observe, so we see no logical reason to live our lives otherwise”

“the Church teaches that the one true God, our creator and lord can be known with certainty from his works, by the natural light of human reason” - Vatican 1

Our hope, our shield, the great protector, our strength, our wisdom and our light.

Someone has already said heaven and hell are here in this world now, if we seek to let each man build his own personal heaven in the end everyone will live in hell. Self sacrafice in this world can lead to a world still imperfect yet a dim mirror image of the heaven we hope to attain where all will live in peace and harmony and without need of self sacrafice, for our fallen human nature will be corrected.


Edited by lux (09/29/08 07:15 PM)

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#11999 - 09/29/08 07:45 PM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: lux]
ZephyrGirl Offline
R.I.P.
active member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 706
Loc: Adelaide Australia
You are forgetting (or I think choosing to ignore) that Satanism is about the self, but we are each different. There are altruistic Satanists. It is an idividual thing. Those that are more self centered may not go out of their way for a friend and that's ok, they probably won't have many friends. Those that are kinder and more less self centered probably would.

Satanism doesn't stop someone from being as altruistic as they are by nature.

You are wrong about what you think is the law of the jungle. It is not lawlessness. There is a very honest and defined heirarchy in the jungle, from the Tiger down to the ants, all animals know their place in the food chain and don't have to read a book to find it out either! There are many examples of animals working together too, so you're just wrong about what you think the Law of the Jungle is.

My problem with you now Lux and I won't be responding anymore, is that you keep quoting as fact, a bunch of OPINIONS.

I don't beleive in God, period. Quoting all the scripture from a book that is of questionable origins at best, will not change that for any of us here.

You aren't asking questions you are trying to tell people here they are wrong.

The Satanic Bible is only a very small starting point. If you don't think that the strong destroying the weak doesn't happen within EVERY SINGLE CHURCH ON EARTH, then you are blind to the real world, in which case, you will NEVER GET IT!

Churchs are FULL of hypocrisy. The are evil institutions and if there really was a God, he would be rather against all the Churches that pervert his real message. Go be a good little Catholic somewhere else. You really aren't ready for understanding yet, sorry.

Zeph
_________________________
Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass -
It's about learning to dance in the rain.


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#12004 - 09/29/08 08:46 PM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: lux]
Nemesis Offline
senior member


Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2175
Loc: US
 Quote:
If two satanists were out for a walk and something terrible happend to befall one of the satanists...with great risk to oneself would a fellow satanist help the first satanist?

That would depend upon whether or not I care for the other person. If it is some random stranger, I'd probably run like hell from whatever it was that killed them.

 Quote:
When people see others in africa starving, people often of a different race suffering, the majority of people would like to ease that suffering, help in someway and i am sure more people would donate if charities were not corrupt and if the problem was merely that easy as to throw cash at it.

It's not the charities that are the obstacle to donating, it's that most people have only enough for themselves and their immediate family. Unless you're rich and like to help others of lesser fortune (and adopt a billion children) like Brangelina, most people are looking out for themselves and those they care about. Modern day "survival of the fittest".

 Quote:
The law of the jungle states, not only should a man not bother about such people who are unable to provide for themselves sufficiantly because they are so weak but if needs be he should take what little they have to further his own advancement.

Not necessarily. A smart animal would not risk himself by getting into a possible conflict with another human, "weak" as though he might be. He would stockpile his goods in a safe place, and keep a guard on his possessions so that the needful do not try to steal it from him. When the other animal dies or moves on, that would be the optimal time to take his stuff.

 Quote:
Since this "new age of Satanism" in our society began do we not see the legalised killing of babies based on the assumption the woman is worth more…and te child less.

Who is worth more is not the issue with abortion, it's the woman's right whether she wants to carry a fetus to full term or not. Anti-abortionists do not take into account the money, physical and emotional effort that comes along with pregnancy, not to mention the money for clothing, food, toys, education, etc, that comes with having a child.

YOU value the child more...yet you are not bearing it. You would risk the life of another human being that already has family, friends, a life to live, for a clump of cells that is little more than a brain stem and some nerve endings? If you are against abortion, then do not have one. Plain and simple. Who are YOU to dictate who does what with their bodies and souls? Typical Christian busybody...

 Quote:
fu** the human race

No, fuck the stupid ones.

 Quote:
fu** the earth and all who inhabit it for if I can I will rule them

I think most Satanists have a healthy respect and concern for the planet that birthed our race. We tend not to put on "airs" about our humble origins, instead embracing them and celebrating our advancement and potential. Humans have only started destroying the planet and going against their nature since the invention of Gods. Before then, humans lived in relative harmony with their environment, never multiplying to such great numbers in one place that they devastated the area, instead coexisting as small tribes. They had no gods to build monuments for, no ideological wars to fight, no justification for slaughtering an entire people (a good example is the Jews in the Old Testament...were there ANY tribes they didn't kill in the name of God?).

 Quote:
Why are you blinded by the light of Christ

We're not the blind ones....Look to the mote in thine own eye.

 Quote:
We as human beings are in a terrible fall if we abandon God…

No, you who are believers are in for a terrible fall...the rest of us are quite content to watch you all swirl down the drain.
_________________________
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#12005 - 09/29/08 08:51 PM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: ZephyrGirl]
blsk Offline
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Registered: 09/22/08
Posts: 298
Loc: salem or
As for eating babies and raping dogs….Since this "new age of Satanism" in our society began do we not see the legalised killing of babies based on the assumption the woman is worth more…and te child less.. why because she is stronger more developed, the child weaker less developed…. And do we not see a certain amount of quiet tollereance of those who practice beastiality?

Wait a minute lux. A certain amount of quiet tolerance of those practicing beastiality? You mean kinda like a quiet tolerace of priests molesting little boys? Kinda like that, lux? As far as this is concerned you are blaming satanists for abortion. It is not based on the asumption that the woman is worth more, you choose to see it that way. Now I am a firm believer in giving what you get and facing the aftermath. These women gave their loins and in turn recieved an unwanted pregnancy. To assume that not one woman of "faith" has had an abortion would be rediculous. What about your golden rule? Did the fetus choose to be extinguished at such a stage? Now these are from the eleven satanic rules of the earth: 8. Do not complain about anything to which you need not subject yourself.

9. Do not harm little children
Now granted maybe aborthions could not be considered children but you get the point(I would hope). As for #8, well I couldn't think of a stronger complaint of an unwanted child than to kill it off because "i'm not ready" boo fuckin hoo, shoulda thought about that. Who was it again that killed the firstborn of every man and animal in Egypt? Oh thats right, GOD! So don't blame the "new satanic age on abortion, try to think things out little better. (DAMN LOGIC)
_________________________
Ed made mens sewing cool.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9mhsW5aWJM

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#12007 - 09/29/08 08:54 PM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: lux]
The Zebu Offline
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Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1646
Loc: Orlando, FL
Law of the Jungle is lawlessness.

Lawlessness?

Being altruistic is in our nature, as well as the nature of many other animals. Look at primate society, for example. Are they lawless? No. They still have things like social order and altruistic behavior. They function as a species yet have no gods or saviors or holy books. THAT is godlessness... the real law of the jungle.

A Satanist would help his fellow Satanist in danger if he cherished them as a person, and it would also provide a reason for the one in need to return the favor someday. But if he despised the person because he had greatly wronged or would wrong him, then the Satanist is free to let him suffer.

Also, keep in mind that we don't regard the Satanic Bible as absolute dogma... so don't quote it like it's the Christian Bible. Nonetheless, it does teach that we should give our love to those who deserve it.

It is true that a Satanist lives for himself alone. But no man is an island, so the interests of the society and the individual overlap. It's an "I scratch your back, you scratch mine" deal. Honestly, what's so bad about that?

“the Church teaches that the one true God, our creator and lord can be known with certainty from his works, by the natural light of human reason” - Vatican 1

Our hope, our shield, the great protector, our strength, our wisdom and our light.

Someone has already said heaven and hell are here in this world now, if we seek to let each man build his own personal heaven in the end everyone will live in hell. Self sacrafice in this world can lead to a world still imperfect yet a dim mirror image of the heaven we hope to attain where all will live in peace and harmony and without need of self sacrafice, for our fallen human nature will be corrected.


Again, no evidence to back this up at all. On a mundane level, what is so wrong with each man wanting to build his personal heaven? Self sacrifice should not be an end in itself.

Our nature is not fallen... It's not good or evil or anything like that. A bit flawed, yes, since nature does have little imperfections at a genetic and atomic level, but I don't think that's what you're getting at.

Finally, philosophy aside, if heaven and hell are right here on earth, and rejecting God will land you in hell, then why does hell feel so damn comfortable? I mean, I'm feeling pretty happy right now. Certainly happier than when I was a confused Christian trying to reconcile his own personal beliefs with a dogmatic religion he couldn't bring himself to agree with. I'm also quite sure that even the older members would agree with me, too.


Edited by The Zebu (09/29/08 09:31 PM)
_________________________
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#12010 - 09/29/08 09:16 PM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: blsk]
blsk Offline
member


Registered: 09/22/08
Posts: 298
Loc: salem or
Is Satanism truly the thing you desire for the human race, the strong destroying the weak, the perverse as "free" as they will.
YES, YES, YES! Yes I would LOVE for the strong to rule as strengh comes from the mind. A strong intilect, a strong will, a strong desire to learn, to build, to create, to discover the workings of all existence. Damned be the weak who have no motivation for such things as thought and logic but merely jump on the first train that comes along. Yes I see the light, you my "friend" are blinded by it.
_________________________
Ed made mens sewing cool.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9mhsW5aWJM

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#12027 - 09/30/08 07:10 AM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: blsk]
lux Offline
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Registered: 09/26/08
Posts: 64
Loc: Newcastle UK
ZephyrGirl:

"You are forgetting (or I think choosing to ignore) that Satanism is about the self, but we are each different. There are altruistic Satanists. It is an idividual thing. Those that are more self centered may not go out of their way for a friend and that's ok, they probably won't have many friends. Those that are kinder and more less self centered probably would.

Satanism doesn't stop someone from being as altruistic as they are by nature."

But neither does it speak out/oppose those who wish to be as self centred as they wish, infact it encourages it, kindness and thinking of others are seen as weak, the less kind you are and the more self centred the stronger you are. I see that Satanism is about the self, but focusing on yourself means you fail to see others.

"You are wrong about what you think is the law of the jungle. It is not lawlessness. There is a very honest and defined heirarchy in the jungle, from the Tiger down to the ants, all animals know their place in the food chain and don't have to read a book to find it out either! There are many examples of animals working together too, so you're just wrong about what you think the Law of the Jungle is."

But it is a hiararchy based on who is strongest, more dominant, tyranny is the reuslt of anarchy. Imagine a King who is a satanist, what terror he is to his people.

"My problem with you now Lux and I won't be responding anymore, is that you keep quoting as fact, a bunch of OPINIONS."

like what?

"I don't beleive in God, period. Quoting all the scripture from a book that is of questionable origins at best, will not change that for any of us here."

Why dont you want to believe in God?

or

Have you missed the point?

"You aren't asking questions you are trying to tell people here they are wrong."

I am asking questions of people, it is you who imagine I am saying they are wrong, perhaps because deep down my questions make you feel you are wrong.. but I have never said you are.

"The Satanic Bible is only a very small starting point. If you don't think that the strong destroying the weak doesn't happen within EVERY SINGLE CHURCH ON EARTH, then you are blind to the real world, in which case, you will NEVER GET IT!"

again, should that be promoted as right?
Christianity condemns such action, Satanism appludes.

"Churchs are FULL of hypocrisy. The are evil institutions and if there really was a God, he would be rather against all the Churches that pervert his real message. Go be a good little Catholic somewhere else. You really aren't ready for understanding yet, sorry."

Churches are full of people, imperfect people... Christianity itself is not hypocritical, neither does it promote the expolitation of the weak... infact it condemns it.
Christianity and Satanism really are at polar opposites, when I first came on here I did not understand as much as I do now, either about Christianity or Satanism

"You really aren't ready for understanding yet, sorry"

Understanding is not the same as "accepting"

It amazes me, but i am begining to think I understand Satanism better than some satanists, but of course the first thing Satanism does is to focus the individual on themselves... if you want to do this, then do it, if you dont then dont...basically satanisim can be summed up as... "do what you want" but by focusing on yourself, perhaps you fail to see the bigger picture.... do you really want to release the so called "demons" from their prison?


Edited by lux (09/30/08 07:13 AM)

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#12028 - 09/30/08 07:47 AM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: lux]
Fist Moderator Offline
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Registered: 08/31/07
Posts: 1453
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 Quote:
Why dont you want to believe in God?


?

Are you a moron? Honestly.

It is called a Logical Fallacy. You cannot prove a negative.

If I say I have a leprechaun in my pocket, and you say "no you don't" the burden of proof lies with me to produce evidence.

Since your God is a real as Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny, the burden of proof is on you.
_________________________
I am the Devil and I am here to do the Devil's work.

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#12031 - 09/30/08 07:57 AM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: lux]
lux Offline
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Registered: 09/26/08
Posts: 64
Loc: Newcastle UK
Blsk:

"That would depend upon whether or not I care for the other person. If it is some random stranger, I'd probably run like hell from whatever it was that killed them."

Why would you care accept for if that person was beneficial to you?

"It's not the charities that are the obstacle to donating, it's that most people have only enough for themselves and their immediate family. Unless you're rich and like to help others of lesser fortune (and adopt a billion children) like Brangelina, most people are looking out for themselves and those they care about. Modern day "survival of the fittest".

I see your point, it is well delivered, it is right to look out for your family and friends, but the people of the west are so poor they cant really afford to give to charity.... but many still do.

A man who earns £500 per week compaired to the man who earns £50 per week is poorer when the first who owes so much to the banks he has less to live on than his counter part. then one must take into considerations of the ecconomy in different countries. We have based our whole ecconomic structure on what the Christian bible calls and condemns "usuary" The western people are not rich but the poorest people on earth, a man who has no money is richer and freer than the man who owes £250,000.

"Not necessarily. A smart animal would not risk himself by getting into a possible conflict with another human, "weak" as though he might be. He would stockpile his goods in a safe place, and keep a guard on his possessions so that the needful do not try to steal it from him. When the other animal dies or moves on, that would be the optimal time to take his stuff"

Yes but considering others human beings stronger than he would be considering doing the same thing, it is best to strike when the other person is at a level of weakness so as to be unable to do any harm, this way he can take the load and hide it from those others who are stronger than he.

"Who is worth more is not the issue with abortion, it's the woman's right whether she wants to carry a fetus to full term or not."

But that "right" comes from the philosophy that the woman is worth more.

"YOU value the child more"

Incorrect
No more, no less.

"a clump of cells that is little more than a brain stem and some nerve endings"

so it is about worth based on development then?

"No, you who are believers are in for a terrible fall...the rest of us are quite content to watch you all swirl down the drain."

The weak are in for a terrible fall, Christianity itself will be as strong as ever, perhaps even stronger, numbers do not make Christianity strong or weak, but the philosophy behind it, it is only in darkness can you see the star of Christ shine... needless to say, it is hard to be a Christian... in Chrisendom

"Wait a minute lux. A certain amount of quiet tolerance of those practicing beastiality? You mean kinda like a quiet tolerace of priests molesting little boys? Kinda like that, lux? "

Where was this quiet tollerence, the whole of society condmened it, the Christian faithful condemned it, The Church Condemned it, Christianity itself Condemns it..... It was covered up, not tollereated.

"To assume that not one woman of "faith" has had an abortion would be rediculous."

I agree. But Christianity is not about its people, but about Christ and the philosophy he left.

"Who was it again that killed the firstborn of every man and animal in Egypt? Oh thats right"

That is forshadowing event, God was teaching the Jews.

To God mortal life is inconsiquental compaired to eternal life.

Jews enslaved to Egypt by the laws of the pharo, egyptian first born die, result pharo sets them free, Mankind enslaved to sin by the laws of God, Jesus Comes Gods first born who dies, result God sets us free.

The Old Testiment must be read and understood in the light of the New

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#12032 - 09/30/08 08:00 AM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: lux]
lux Offline
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Registered: 09/26/08
Posts: 64
Loc: Newcastle UK
Fist:

A moron, I hope not but that is for others to decide not me.

You missed the point fist,

try re reading it.

Why dont you WANT to believe in God?

Why would any person WANT to believe in God?

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#12033 - 09/30/08 08:17 AM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: lux]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Why is believing or not believing in god always tied to a desire to do so?

Is it too hard to imagine that maybe some people don't believe in god because they simply have no other option.
A dog does not believe in god because the concept is strange to it. In the past humans did not differ from that dog and nowadays, many again don't believe. Not because the concept is strange but because it is all too familiar.

D.

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#12034 - 09/30/08 08:18 AM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: lux]
DistroyA Offline
member


Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 478
Loc: Mansfield, Nottinghamshire, UK
Why don't we want to believe in God? Because he is a cunt, that's why. Look at the untold destruction and suffering he has caused. If that's his divine plan and how loving this God can be, then I have no alternative but to NOT believe in him and proclaim myself as my own God.

Does that answer your question at all? Are we done trying to convert people to your faith?
_________________________
"A man chooses, a slave obeys." - Andrew Ryan of Ryan Industries (Bioshock)

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#12036 - 09/30/08 09:53 AM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: lux]
Nykky Offline
stranger


Registered: 09/27/08
Posts: 22
Loc: Northern CA
 Originally Posted By: lux
Fist:

A moron, I hope not but that is for others to decide not me.

You missed the point fist,

try re reading it.

Why dont you WANT to believe in God?

Why would any person WANT to believe in God?



My answer -
I don't WANT to believe in God because to me God is not real.
I'll start believing if he comes down from Heaven above and slaps me across the face.

Give me a reason why you believe in God. Not something that you learned in church, or your Mom and Dad told you, or you read in the Bible. What makes you feel so strongly that there is a God?

You cannot give me a reason because you were taught everything you know about God. You were not born believing in God. You do not know that God really truly exists. You have faith? Faith is crap, you learn faith. Deep down in your mind you know that there is no way to know anything for a fact because you won't meet your God until after you are dead, you are not dead therefore you do not know for a fact that God exists. You are basing all of you knowledge of God on faith, some crappy bible, and your parents, friends, whoever. Bibles are books you know and a lot of books are Fiction.

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#12037 - 09/30/08 10:15 AM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: Nykky]
lux Offline
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Registered: 09/26/08
Posts: 64
Loc: Newcastle UK
Diavolo:

"Why is believing or not believing in god always tied to a desire to do so?"

Perhaps your missing something?

"Is it too hard to imagine that maybe some people don't believe in god because they simply have no other option.
A dog does not believe in god because the concept is strange to it. In the past humans did not differ from that dog and nowadays, many again don't believe. Not because the concept is strange but because it is all too familiar"

again you cite reasons why you or others may not believe in God.

Why would a person WANT to believe?

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#12038 - 09/30/08 10:30 AM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: lux]
lux Offline
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Registered: 09/26/08
Posts: 64
Loc: Newcastle UK
DistroyA:

"Why don't we want to believe in God? Because he is a cunt, that's why. Look at the untold destruction and suffering he has caused. If that's his divine plan and how loving this God can be, then I have no alternative but to NOT believe in him and proclaim myself as my own God."

Ok, a good answere as a satanist... what is wrong with suffering and destruction?

Look at your name.

Nothing so long as its you who is causing it and not enduring it?

We have been around for 2000 years, longer if you consider Catholicism an extension of judiasim. We Know God does not cause the suffering and destruction, it is Satanism in its various forms that does. God permits this as he is permiting it to happen today..why.... I have already said.... "It is only in darkness that we can see his love shine"

That is why Satanism can never over come it.

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#12039 - 09/30/08 10:30 AM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: lux]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Why would a person want to believe in god?

Leaving out those who can't but believe, in my opinion each desire (wanting) to believe in a god (or something similar) comes forth from an inferiority complex. It's the mindset of a slave; they need a master to give a purpose to their life and protect them from reality.

D.

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#12040 - 09/30/08 10:38 AM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: lux]
DistroyA Offline
member


Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 478
Loc: Mansfield, Nottinghamshire, UK
I can give a possible answer as to why someone would want to believe in God;

Because they are weak; they feel that they need to have an invisible deity watching their every move, and want to believe there a happy place where they go and a nasty place where their enemies will go. They must also be masochistic if they want someone to tell them what to do and restrict them from having a good time whilst living.

They're also clutching at straws thinking there must be a thing that made them and made their every thought.

Edit: Here's my response to your reply to me, Lux

 Originally Posted By: lux
DistroyA:

"Why don't we want to believe in God? Because he is a cunt, that's why. Look at the untold destruction and suffering he has caused. If that's his divine plan and how loving this God can be, then I have no alternative but to NOT believe in him and proclaim myself as my own God."

Ok, a good answere as a satanist... what is wrong with suffering and destruction?
A lot of things. It's unnecessary to destroy what has been created, although nature destroys what has been created to continue the cycle of life. We on the other hand have no authority to take another person's life. If there is a God, and he's letting people get raped, killed and tortured, then he's a complete and utter cunt.

 Originally Posted By: lux
Look at your name.

Nothing so long as its you who is causing it and not enduring it?
My online handle has been used for years due to playing videogames of a violent nature. You going to to quiz me on that one too, seeing as it's been proven to be a good way to vent pent up negative emotions?

 Originally Posted By: lux
We have been around for 2000 years, longer if you consider Catholicism an extension of judiasim. We Know God does not cause the suffering and destruction, it is Satanism in its various forms that does. God permits this as he is permiting it to happen today..why.... I have already said.... "It is only in darkness that we can see his love shine"

That is why satanism can never over come it.
Okay, so assuming you have a wife and kids and whatnot. Then, all of a sudden, they get killed in a very violent way. If this is God's plan, how do YOU feel about it? Seems to me that this God is a sadistic mother fucker and LOVES to see his creations suffer, so would you still love him even if your family suffered an agonising death?

And Satanism has fuck all to do with the suffering and destruction. I can now see why you're here; just to insult us all, and make US feel bad for YOUR religions failings. You're nothing but a psychic vampire.

What's your reasoning? Because you've had it ingrained into you since you were a child?


Edited by DistroyA (09/30/08 10:49 AM)
Edit Reason: Didn't want to double post
_________________________
"A man chooses, a slave obeys." - Andrew Ryan of Ryan Industries (Bioshock)

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#12042 - 09/30/08 10:55 AM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: lux]
lux Offline
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Registered: 09/26/08
Posts: 64
Loc: Newcastle UK
Nykky:

"My answer -
I don't WANT to believe in God because to me God is not real.
I'll start believing if he comes down from Heaven above and slaps me across the face."

That is just like saying. I dont want to believe, because I dont believe.

"Give me a reason why you believe in God. Not something that you learned in church, or your Mom and Dad told you, or you read in the Bible. What makes you feel so strongly that there is a God?"

Have I not given you many already in pervious posts. I can not give you a reason I have not learned from others, but I can give you many that I have understood. This is from my own ability to understand that what I have read.

To whom will the weak look to defeat their advasary if not that which is stronger than their advasary. Which is stronger that which is natural or that which is supernatural?

"You cannot give me a reason because you were taught everything you know about God. You were not born believing in God. You do not know that God really truly exists. You have faith? Faith is crap, you learn faith. Deep down in your mind you know that there is no way to know anything for a fact because you won't meet your God until after you are dead, you are not dead therefore you do not know for a fact that God exists. You are basing all of you knowledge of God on faith, some crappy bible, and your parents, friends, whoever. Bibles are books you know and a lot of books are Fiction."

I will be honest I do not know without Doubt, I never said I Know God exists without doubt,I never said God exists and that is a Fact... what I said is I believe in God.

I do say the prayer.... "lord I believe, help my unbelief"

Man needs God...Men need God

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#12043 - 09/30/08 11:09 AM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: lux]
lux Offline
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Registered: 09/26/08
Posts: 64
Loc: Newcastle UK
DestroyA:

"I can give a possible answer as to why someone would want to believe in God;

Because they are weak"

Your spot on!

But then you go off on a tirade in totally the wrong direction. But I will let you figure that one out yourself.

Seriosuly I am not trying to insult you or make you feel bad, that is the last thing I want to do. I am comparing and debating the two philosphies. If me doing that makes you feel insulted and feel bad, then you should question why Christian philosophy makes you feel I am trying to insult you and think that I am trying to make you feel bad


Edited by lux (09/30/08 11:09 AM)

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#12044 - 09/30/08 11:15 AM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: lux]
lux Offline
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Registered: 09/26/08
Posts: 64
Loc: Newcastle UK
Diavolo:

"Why would a person want to believe in god?

Leaving out those who can't but believe, in my opinion each desire (wanting) to believe in a god (or something similar) comes forth from an inferiority complex. It's the mindset of a slave; they need a master to give a purpose to their life and protect them from reality."

LOL, your still looking to belief in God as in Belief in the Existance of God... "even the demons believe in (the existance of) God" I tread on very, very dangerous Ground....How about the concept of God?


Edited by lux (09/30/08 11:17 AM)

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#12045 - 09/30/08 11:25 AM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: lux]
DistroyA Offline
member


Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 478
Loc: Mansfield, Nottinghamshire, UK
No, I'm not going off in the wrong direction at all bub. You stated perfectly clear that Satanism in ALL it's forms is to blame for all the pain and suffering in the world, and not God.

For one, I never stated at any one time that God is causing the unnecessary pain and suffering to happen; I stated that he's letting it happen.

And two, you were clearly blaming Satanism in all it's forms for the aforementioned pain and suffering. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but Anton LaVey NEVER told people to come join his club of God deniers; he just told them how he saw it and they decided on their own accord to join his Church. All of us here have chosen our paths, unlike yourself, so damn right I feel insulted when you blame Satanism for the pain and suffering in the world, as that tells me that YOU are blaming ME and the rest of us for rape, child molestation, and other untold atrocities. Am I to blame for shit that happened before I was born as well?

If anything, there has been more pain, suffering and death caused by people who have represented the fucking Vatican in history. If you want to blame anyone or anything for suffering, blame your religion's representatives in the past.

Talk about self righteousness...
_________________________
"A man chooses, a slave obeys." - Andrew Ryan of Ryan Industries (Bioshock)

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#12046 - 09/30/08 11:34 AM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: lux]
The Zebu Offline
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Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1646
Loc: Orlando, FL
I didn't want to resort to reverse-abrahamic elements, but at this point I see no other option. The following is written from a theistic standpoint, so perhaps you can understand.

Yahweh, as a god, presents himself as the one true god, who is the embodiment of goodness and mercy.

Yet throughout the old testament, he orders the Israelites to commit countless atrocities against other semetic tribes, with some vague goal of ethnic cleansing and religious/political dominion. Much of it can be summed up as: "All this land belongs to you, so feel free to slaughter anyone on it. Kill the men, kill the women, kill the children. But if you see any of their virgin daughters, feel free to rape them."

I don't care whether or not it actually happened. I realize times were different back then, but I would never EVER worship a god who endorsed such actions under ANY context.

From a henotheistic standpoint, Yahweh strikes me as a jealous, megalomaniacal deity- simply a minor tribal war god of the Israelites who is greedy for followers, and is a false pretender to the throne of the true Cosmic God. If I believed in the gods, Yahweh would be one of the last ones I'd worship.
_________________________
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#12047 - 09/30/08 11:39 AM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: DistroyA]
lux Offline
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Loc: Newcastle UK
"No, I'm not going off in the wrong direction at all bub. You stated perfectly clear that Satanism in ALL it's forms is to blame for all the pain and suffering in the world, and not God."

I was talking of needing a deity to watch over our every move, I never said I blame satanisim in *all* its forms, but in its VARIOUS forms. Also I am not blaming satanists in their VARIOUS forms, but Satanism in its Various forms... Athiesm, Humanism, Paganism... so and so forth, the label is not important remember its what lies behind the name.

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#12050 - 09/30/08 11:54 AM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: lux]
DistroyA Offline
member


Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 478
Loc: Mansfield, Nottinghamshire, UK
Paganism does not equate to Satanism, for it is it's own religion. Atheism and Humanism are not religions, but they certainly aren't Satanism. Sure, Satanism shares a lot of philosophies that Atheism and Humanism have, but it does add more to it to make it it's own philosophy and religion.

You haven't done much research, have you? Is all this "information" you're giving us what your pastor has told you? Why, I wouldn't be surprised if he were standing behind you right now watching you type and reading every post we've all made to counter your arguments. Put it this way; we aren't stupid, and we can see through your words.
_________________________
"A man chooses, a slave obeys." - Andrew Ryan of Ryan Industries (Bioshock)

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#12051 - 09/30/08 12:02 PM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: lux]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1646
Loc: Orlando, FL
WAIT... did you just put Satanism, Athiesm, Humanism, and Paganism in the same category?

Satanism = No god but yourself. Not everyone is equal, and the strong dominate the weak.

Humanism = Everyone is equal in dignity and worth.

Paganism = There are many gods. Nature is sacred.

Atheism = There is no god. Nothing is sacred.

THEY ARE COMPLETELY DIFFERENT.

What you're trying to do is separate everything into Christianity vs. Everything Else (aka Satan) which makes no sense at all. Please do some research.


Edited by The Zebu (09/30/08 12:03 PM)
_________________________
«Recibe, ¡oh Lucifer! la sangre de esta víctima que sacrifico en tu honor.»

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#12052 - 09/30/08 01:09 PM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: lux]
Nemesis Offline
senior member


Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2175
Loc: US
Perhaps it is not that we don't WANT to believe in God, but that some of us are physically UNABLE to believe in God.

Dean Hamer is a molecular biologist at the National Institutes of Health, where he heads the Gene Structure and Regulation section at the National Cancer Institute. In his latest book, Hamer says certain brain chemicals affect higher consciousness and spirituality, and that the actions of these chemicals are linked to a gene his team has researched. He spoke to us recently about "The God Gene: How Faith Is Hardwired into Our Genes."

Read this article, and do a Google search for "God gene", read some more articles, develop some comprehension on this possiblity, then get back to us.

The Brain Chemistry of the Buddha
_________________________
Nothing is sacred.

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#12053 - 09/30/08 01:15 PM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: Nemesis]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1646
Loc: Orlando, FL
Exactly. Even if I agreed with the philosophy of Christianity, I still find the idea of the supernatural to go against all of my ideas of logic and reason.
_________________________
«Recibe, ¡oh Lucifer! la sangre de esta víctima que sacrifico en tu honor.»

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#12054 - 09/30/08 02:37 PM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: lux]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Can we please drop the demons and dangerous ground? It does not impress me at all and when you debate and start using that pseudo-whatever mumbojumbo, people are wondering if you actually know what you debate or are just shifting a bit around to hide you don't really have a solid argument for anything.

God and the concept of god are the same, so what's your point?

D.

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#12055 - 09/30/08 03:55 PM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: lux]
Fabiano Offline
member


Registered: 09/06/08
Posts: 374
 Quote:
But neither does it speak out/oppose those who wish to be as self centred as they wish, infact it encourages it, kindness and thinking of others are seen as weak, the less kind you are and the more self centred the stronger you are. I see that Satanism is about the self, but focusing on yourself means you fail to see others.


You're misunderstanding it Lux. Satanism is not egoism. Satanism doesn't prevent to be kind. Satanists are capable of truely love Lux ! Incredible isn't it ? \:D What appears to us be a weakness is to give our love to the ungrateful.
You has a similar advise in your own bible : "Don't throw your pearl to the pigs" (Mat 7-6). And I consider my love as a pearl, so I don't waste it. It is just unrealistic to love everybody!


 Quote:
But it is a hiararchy based on who is strongest, more dominant, tyranny is the reuslt of anarchy. Imagine a King who is a satanist, what terror he is to his people.


Politically, I define myself as an anarchist. I don't see anarchy as Tyranny. Anarchy is the ascence of authority, so just the opposite.
Being Stronger does not mean being nasty or evil. Satanists are kind with their friends, hard with their ennemies.

So I think that in such an anarchical society, where the nature is free to operate its magic, that society will auto-organise. Groups and associations can be created and disolved as necessary, as needed. I see the stronger taking the lead of such group, as "situational leadership".

What would then happen to the Satanists Community in such a situation? They would live in peace with pacific people (the Xians for instance). They don't take the initiative of hurting others. But if some evil guys would come steal or harm the community, then there'll be vengeance. I think he'll think twice coming again anoying us. I suppose he'll find the Xians better candidates for being their victims.
The same for the psychic vampires who will quick learn from whom they can suck their energy!

 Quote:
Why dont you want to believe in God?

Because I did it and it ended in an ordeal, Lux! Or your God exists and he's cruel or it does not exists and I curse those who invented him and put such ideas in my head.


 Quote:
"The Satanic Bible is only a very small starting point. If you don't think that the strong destroying the weak doesn't happen within EVERY SINGLE CHURCH ON EARTH, then you are blind to the real world, in which case, you will NEVER GET IT!"

again, should that be promoted as right?
Christianity condemns such action, Satanism appludes.


Again Lux, I think you misunderstanding Satanism. Satanism does not say that the stronger should destroy the weaker, just because he's the stronger.
In opened field, satanists will not annoy others. If someone annoys a satanists, the satanist will ask him to stop. If he doesn't stop, the satanist will destroy him.
I found similar mindset in some martial arts.

 Quote:
Churches are full of people, imperfect people... Christianity itself is not hypocritical, neither does it promote the expolitation of the weak... infact it condemns it.


Imperfect people? Your kidding or what? Do you think Torquemada was imperfect??? What a beautifull euphemism! He wasn't imperfect he was just EVIL ! And he was placed high in the Church Hierarchy !

We do not promote "imperfection", we're indulgent. The issue with abstinence is not with people who accept it freely (like some true christians or Satanists).
The problems comes when a Church, an authority imposes such abstinence. For the strongers, it'll not be an issue : or it will make it (as true Xians) or they will rebel against it (as true Satanists).
But think about the weaks who take on their shoulders a responsability, a commitment they'll not be able to respect. Those to weak for admitting their sins, thos too weak for rebelling and says "it's not a sin"?
Then they'll build a respectable façade and will commit their "sins" secretly.
Or like Torquemada, they'll will play the malignant, the Evil-minded, twisting his own bible for justificating their actions. They will argue & convince others that all these evil actions are justified by some good/God reason.

 Quote:
It amazes me, but i am begining to think I understand satanism better than some satanists, but of course the first thing satanism does is to focus the individual on themselves... if you want to do this, then do it, if you dont then dont...basically satanisim can be summed up as... "do what you want" but by focusing on yourself, perhaps you fail to see the bigger picture.... do you really want to release the so called "demons" from their prison?


Again Lux, you believe you understand but you don't. Focussing on oneself does not means being egoist. To me it's rather a matter of self-confidence. If you see our law as "do want you want" you omit to add " and take your responsabilities. Don't be stupid".
Yes we do what we want, but not in the "barbarian" sense you imagine.
I do what I want because I think I'm the better placed to decide what I should do! I have more info (including other's advises) about my situation (context but also emotonal state, values, feelings,...) than anyone else and I have 140 IQ points for logically finding what is best to do. Who can challenge me?
Don't forget we limit ourself in order to not hurt other. For instance, forced sex, rape is forbidden. But as long as the persons are adult & consenting for me there is no issue.

Satanists are not egoist or evil, they're just not submissive


You see Lux, you perhaps understand better Satanism than some Satanists.
But there are Satanists understanding it better than you!
May be you were a little bit pride of this "better understanding"... Don't worry about me, I'm indulgent \:\) See this with your God to know what he thinks...

Finally, are you even sure you understand Christianity and the bible better than me? Because I've been a true Christian. I was the [i]man about whom John said "Jesus, he's preaching your name but he's not with us". Note that's John, a member of the very first Church who rejects even that "good man". I think the Churches never stopped to do this.
I never belang to any Church. Satanism fits me because Church is accessory.

A little quiz for the very end?
You said Jesus was God, not the son of God. I know all Xians don't share this Catholic point of view.
In Mar 13-32 it's written: (I'm translanting from French "on the fly" so be indulgent ;\) ) "Regarding the day & the Hour, nobody knows, neither the angels, nor even the Son, but only the Father".
If Jesus, "the Son" is God and not the son of God, how can he ignores something God knows?

Fabiano

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#12056 - 09/30/08 04:01 PM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: Diavolo]
Fabiano Offline
member


Registered: 09/06/08
Posts: 374
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
Why would a person want to believe in god?

Leaving out those who can't but believe, in my opinion each desire (wanting) to believe in a god (or something similar) comes forth from an inferiority complex. It's the mindset of a slave; they need a master to give a purpose to their life and protect them from reality.

D.


Mmmmmh There might be some bright enlighted mind here ? \:D

I appreciate in particular the "protect them from reality"
!

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#12057 - 09/30/08 04:15 PM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: The Zebu]
Fabiano Offline
member


Registered: 09/06/08
Posts: 374
 Originally Posted By: The Zebu
Exactly. Even if I agreed with the philosophy of Christianity, I still find the idea of the supernatural to go against all of my ideas of logic and reason.


Nemesis, The Zebu, I'm just here trying to better understand Satanism I'm discovering.
In TSB the 1st half of the book is about the "theory" and you all roughly shares these views. The book of Belial and Leviathan are about ritual and magic. I have sometimes the impression that you just ignore the 2nd half. Am I right ?

Fabiano

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#12058 - 09/30/08 04:34 PM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: Fabiano]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1646
Loc: Orlando, FL
wait... wut?

I believe in the psychological effectiveness of ritual, symbols, and psychodrama. In addition to my philosophical views, that's why I primarily identify Satanism as my religion. I consider myself both a Satanist and an Atheist.

I'm just saying that I personally don't find it rational to believe in the supernatural... but I couldn't care less what other people believe as long as they're not trying to present it as absolute truth. Nor is everyone on this forum a hardcore materialist like I am, so debating over intangible things like souls and such is not going to go anywhere.


Edited by The Zebu (09/30/08 04:34 PM)
_________________________
«Recibe, ¡oh Lucifer! la sangre de esta víctima que sacrifico en tu honor.»

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#12059 - 09/30/08 05:17 PM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: lux]
Fabiano Offline
member


Registered: 09/06/08
Posts: 374
 Originally Posted By: lux
Diavolo:

"Why would a person want to believe in god?

Leaving out those who can't but believe, in my opinion each desire (wanting) to believe in a god (or something similar) comes forth from an inferiority complex. It's the mindset of a slave; they need a master to give a purpose to their life and protect them from reality."

LOL, your still looking to belief in God as in Belief in the Existance of God... "even the demons believe in (the existance of) God" I tread on very, very dangerous Ground....How about the concept of God?


ROTFL! Yes the demons you invented beleive in the existence of God ! One Xian preacher told me once that "demons know God exists and they tremble with fear"! As I already said, we don't tremble with fear. We're self confident. Satans represents The rebel, the non submissive one, the "weak" who dares to question the omnipotent God, the one accuses the churches to do the opposite of what they preach.
Lucifer Represents the one who thinks by himself, the one who look at the reality and uncovers it by bringing his light. We don't want or need to be protected from reality.
You know Lux, from my point of view, I see your faith as a dream you're in. The Dream is so real! But I woke up and I can know remeber my dream and think about it...

Satans and Lucifer represents the values we (satanists) share.

I hope it'll help you to have a better understanding what is Modern Satanism.

Finaly, Lux, I can undertsand you and "enter your world" to be "on the same wavelength" than you when we discuss about some Xian concept.
But when Diavolo come with a remark regarding real people, you should be able to "enter his hard real wordl". Answering that "demons knows the existence of God" add nothing.
The question is : "Don't you think some people live in their imaginary religious world because it's more comfortable than the hard reality" ?

Fabiano

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#12060 - 09/30/08 05:46 PM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: The Zebu]
Fabiano Offline
member


Registered: 09/06/08
Posts: 374
 Originally Posted By: The Zebu
wait... wut?

I believe in the psychological effectiveness of ritual, symbols, and psychodrama. In addition to my philosophical views, that's why I primarily identify Satanism as my religion. I consider myself both a Satanist and an Atheist.

I'm just saying that I personally don't find it rational to believe in the supernatural... but I couldn't care less what other people believe as long as they're not trying to present it as absolute truth. Nor is everyone on this forum a hardcore materialist like I am, so debating over intangible things like souls and such is not going to go anywhere.


I understand well The Zebu, Indeed the magic can be (tentatively) "explained" by modern psychology concepts. I prefer a rational explanation than a surnatural one. But there are thing that cannot be explained. When it's written that your ennemy is more receptive when he sleep & dreams, I can't see any psychological explanation...

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#12061 - 09/30/08 06:20 PM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: Fabiano]
lux Offline
Banned
pledge


Registered: 09/26/08
Posts: 64
Loc: Newcastle UK
You people should know the demons better than most.

To me there seems to be a few type of people where they stand regarding the Christian faith.

1.The Athiest Christian who rejcts out of hand the existance of God but believes in the philosophy.. but fails to understand the philosophy.

2. The Christian who believes without understanding...blind faith
3. The Christian who believes with understanding.
4. The Christian who has doubts but has understanding.
5. The Christian who disbelieves with understanding.
6. None Christian who dont believe and dont understand.
7. Non Christian who dont believe and think they understand.
8. Non Christian who does believe and does understand.

1. Is not really a Christian (There is hope)
2. Is a babe in Christ (On the Road)
3. Is a saint or in the making (made it or in the process)
4. Is a want to be saint... but not yet.(Further down the road)
5. Is a good person. (Not on the road but isnt denying the road is there)
6. Is a lost individual (There is hope)
7. Is a proud individual (No hope bar a miracle)
8. Is a wicked individual (There is hope)

also

9, the Christian who believes, thinks he understands but does not

9. The blind leading the blind.

I have yet to meet no 10

10 The one who doesnt believe and understands.

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#12062 - 09/30/08 06:55 PM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: lux]
Fist Moderator Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/31/07
Posts: 1453
Loc: B'mo Cautious MF
 Quote:
Why dont you WANT to believe in God?


Good golly and gee wiz, wouldn't it be nice to believe in Xtian fairy tales. However, I am grown person living in the real world and believing in God is pretty well pointless. I have seen nothing in my life to make me want to believe in God.

Ok, clearly we will have to use the Socratic Method here. Why don't you believe in Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny?


 Quote:
A moron, I hope not but that is for others to decide not me.


Ahh, one vote for moron please...
_________________________
I am the Devil and I am here to do the Devil's work.

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#12063 - 09/30/08 07:27 PM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: Fist]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1646
Loc: Orlando, FL
Lux, at this point you're just making abstractions with no backing.

How would we know "demons"? To you, demons are beings that know the full glory of God and yet consciously reject Him, and yet at the same time fear Him and tremble at His name.

On the other hand, we don't accept the base premises that even the Christian Devil is supposed to (that God exists). The ideas of God and Jesus are irrelevant to us; we have our own ideas that we think are right. Just because some scripture to the contrary claims divine inspiration does not mean that we will think any less of our own ideas.

If sin is the rejection of God, then we cannot be sinning, as we do not see any God to reject.

For us to change our ideas you're going to need to argue from a mundane point of view- show us that your ideas have philosophical weight even without the finery of divinity.

And Fabiano, I'll respond later via PM since I don't want to derail the thread.
_________________________
«Recibe, ¡oh Lucifer! la sangre de esta víctima que sacrifico en tu honor.»

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#12073 - 09/30/08 10:44 PM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: The Zebu]
blackdragon31560 Offline
pledge


Registered: 08/30/07
Posts: 74
Loc: Hell Paso, TX
i read this thread last night, and couldn't help wounder why people are arguing with lux. It's a waste of time, using logic against someone that doesn't believe in it or use it (aka faith). the simplest fact is that the "Christian faith" most Xtian faith's are nothing new just bastardization of past religions and legends. yet declare heretics of those they stole from, the key word is hypocrisy.


 Quote:
Also I am not blaming satanists in their VARIOUS forms, but Satanism in its Various forms... Athiesm, Humanism, Paganism...


simply ignorance, theistic (Paganism) and atheistic (Athiesm, Humanism) they are not remotely the same.

trying to argue or explain this to Lux, is like talking to a wall.
_________________________
Hatred is gained as much by good works as by evil.

~ Niccolo Machiavelli

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#12074 - 09/30/08 11:30 PM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: lux]
Nykky Offline
stranger


Registered: 09/27/08
Posts: 22
Loc: Northern CA
 Originally Posted By: lux


I will be honest I do not know without Doubt, I never said I Know God exists without doubt,I never said God exists and that is a Fact... what I said is I believe in God.

I do say the prayer.... "lord I believe, help my unbelief"

Man needs God...Men need God



But yet you are arguing as if it is fact. Instead of trying to argue that there is a God why don't you try to understand why we don't believe there is a God. You are arguing every point that is made and refuse to accept anyone's answers as to why they don't believe in God or why they don't share the same religious beliefs as you.

I'm sure the majority of people here have read the Bible and have learned about religions from parents, school, and so on. We have made a decision and look at things from a different perspective than you.

You came to a Satanist forum looking to "read, listen and ask questions to gain a better understanding of our nemesis" but all you have done is argue and refuse to accept other peoples answers. You are not learning anything this way. Maybe you should ask questions regarding Satanism and learn a little more.You couldn't have possibly even touched the surface. Nobody is going to to try and turn you away from your faith, nor are they going to chastise you for asking questions. If you came here to learn than you should not be debating everything that is said. Don't you have any questions on what it's about besides the fact that it does not involve believing in God?

I'm very very new and have had the wrong impression when I started reading into Satanism. I hardly know anything about this subject myself but I'm going to learn and read all I can. I am not going to call myself a Satanist at this point because I simply do not know enough to make a decision. I do know that I do not believe there is a God.

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#12077 - 10/01/08 05:05 AM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: Nykky]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3138
 Originally Posted By: fabiano
understand well The Zebu, Indeed the magic can be (tentatively) "explained" by modern psychology concepts. I prefer a rational explanation than a surnatural one. But there are thing that cannot be explained. When it's written that your ennemy is more receptive when he sleep & dreams, I can't see any psychological explanation...

I can, it is just some other part of your brain that becomes active and still uses your sences. Even if not aware you can talk to him and put ideas into his head he will act to if awoken. It is quite simple..


@ lux, it is quite rude to always start your numbering with "the christian that.." some take it as an offent. I'd prefer if you use "the men". It is much more universal and much more politer.

also:
 Quote:
Man needs God...Men need God

Is simply bullshit. It is better written as: "Some men need god, all men doesn't need him."

@ fabiano;
 Quote:
The book of Belial and Leviathan are about ritual and magic. I have sometimes the impression that you just ignore the 2nd half. Am I right ?

If you read closely they aren't ignoring it but have their own personal view about it. For performing a ritual or practice magic you do not need a "higher power". Satan, leviathen, beelsebub,.. are just symbols representing some aspects of life. And it is with such global aspects we work within rituals.
_________________________
Ut vivat, crescat et floreat

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#12078 - 10/01/08 05:08 AM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: lux]
ZephyrGirl Offline
R.I.P.
active member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 706
Loc: Adelaide Australia
 Originally Posted By: Lux
 Originally Posted By: ZephyrGirl
Satanism doesn't stop someone from being as altruistic as they are by nature."


But neither does it speak out/oppose those who wish to be as self centred as they wish, infact it encourages it, kindness and thinking of others are seen as weak, the less kind you are and the more self centred the stronger you are. I see that Satanism is about the self, but focusing on yourself means you fail to see others.


The very shallow and starting point of Satanism might appear that way to one first reading TSB, but in fact, caring for those around you that are indeed worthy of your care is very important part of Satanism. To do this though, you have to know yourself, so focusing on the self is the start. However, man is not an island and most of us want to have relationships with the opposite sex, family, friends etc. Helping your community is helping yourself and your family.


I would like you to give me one good reason why someone shouldn't be self centered? Without using the 'bible told me so', that you are so fond of (or God wants or the church says so).

 Originally Posted By: Lux
But it is a hiararchy based on who is strongest, more dominant, tyranny is the reuslt of anarchy. Imagine a King who is a satanist, what terror he is to his people.


So you are saying that we should all do what the weakest of us want? Strength is not just physical size. Being smart is a strength. Don't you want the smartest leaders and Kings? Or do you really want the weakest person for the job? That King would be invaded or overthrown straight away. You haven't thought your statement through properly you are just going with what you have been taught by The Church.

 Originally Posted By: Lux
 Originally Posted By: ZephyrGirl
My problem with you now Lux and I won't be responding anymore ( OK, maybe once more , is that you keep quoting as fact, a bunch of OPINIONS."


like what?


Like everything that you quote from the Bible. That is full of opinions and opinions only. There is no basis in fact or collaborating evidence that is not heresay.

 Quote:
Why dont you want to believe in God?

or

Have you missed the point?



And what point is that exactly Lux? If I've missed the point, it is because you have not stated it clearly.

However in answer to your question, it's not that I don't WANT to beleive in God, it's that I don't NEED to beleive in God. And not only that, if I was to 'try' to beleive in God I would be being dishonest to myself. Like others have said, I haven't experienced anything in life that makes me think that there is any all powerful being or God out there. Not only that, I think that those that do beleive in God because they 'feel' or 'hear' him are actually just tuning in their subconcious, something that I find second nature.

 Quote:
I am asking questions of people, it is you who imagine I am saying they are wrong, perhaps because deep down my questions make you feel you are wrong.. but I have never said you are.


Ok, I will concede that you haven't come outright and said that people here are wrong. It is pretty bloody obvious though, that is what you think, or you wouldn't be debating about it all, instead of just taking in the answers your receive and asking a new question. Your rebuttal is proof of you beleif that we are wrong. I most definately don't feel wrong either shallowly or deep down.

 Quote:
It amazes me, but i am begining to think I understand satanism better than some satanists, but of course the first thing satanism does is to focus the individual on themselves... if you want to do this, then do it, if you dont then dont...basically satanisim can be summed up as... "do what you want" but by focusing on yourself, perhaps you fail to see the bigger picture.... do you really want to release the so called "demons" from their prison?


No Lux, you don't understand Satanism better than me, very cocky of you to think that you do though.........you'll be a fine Satanist once you stop lying to yourself.

I'm not sure what 'demons' you are talking about, but I'll take it that you mean my own personal 'inner' demons. Actually I can't think of anything better than letting them out. Freeing myself of them is a very healing thing to to. Once you have freed yourself, you are then free to be a real help to those around you that deserve it. Your family, friends and lovers, community etc and so on and so forth. How can you be of help to others if you cannot even get rid of your own hangups?

Zeph
_________________________
Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass -
It's about learning to dance in the rain.


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#12081 - 10/01/08 05:47 AM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: lux]
Fabiano Offline
member


Registered: 09/06/08
Posts: 374
 Originally Posted By: lux
You people should know the demons better than most.

To me there seems to be a few type of people where they stand regarding the Christian faith.

1.The Athiest Christian who rejcts out of hand the existance of God but believes in the philosophy.. but fails to understand the philosophy.

2. The Christian who believes without understanding...blind faith
3. The Christian who believes with understanding.
4. The Christian who has doubts but has understanding.
5. The Christian who disbelieves with understanding.
6. None Christian who dont believe and dont understand.
7. Non Christian who dont believe and think they understand.
8. Non Christian who does believe and does understand.

1. Is not really a Christian (There is hope)
2. Is a babe in Christ (On the Road)
3. Is a saint or in the making (made it or in the process)
4. Is a want to be saint... but not yet.(Further down the road)
5. Is a good person. (Not on the road but isnt denying the road is there)
6. Is a lost individual (There is hope)
7. Is a proud individual (No hope bar a miracle)
8. Is a wicked individual (There is hope)

also

9, the Christian who believes, thinks he understands but does not

9. The blind leading the blind.

I have yet to meet no 10

10 The one who doesnt believe and understands.


Then what? What are you triying to explain here? This is not making us progressing...

To me, this is just MEGO overload.

Be more constructive Lux! I'm feeling wasting my time when reading such post...

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#12086 - 10/01/08 07:27 AM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: Fabiano]
Nemesis Offline
senior member


Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2175
Loc: US
It's always fun to watch someone's arguments fall apart, once they start being bombarded with facts and logic. Lux is backed into a corner, and posts that were once intelligent, respectful and thoughtful are now turning into circular gibberish. It was inevitable, but the entertainment is beginning to wane.
_________________________
Nothing is sacred.

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#12087 - 10/01/08 08:33 AM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: Nemesis]
Fist Moderator Offline
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Registered: 08/31/07
Posts: 1453
Loc: B'mo Cautious MF
Personally, I think this nonsense has gone on too long already. Lux came here with his hat in his hand with the ostensible purpose of learning about Satanism. In short order he went right to babbling about the bible story that we all already know and have roundly rejected.

He has been impervious (read - completely dense) to logic and does not understand that faith is a Logical Fallacy. He defends God in the same way that my children might defend Batman or Superman.

All the same, everyone seems to be having a good time with him so I suppose this is tolerable.
_________________________
I am the Devil and I am here to do the Devil's work.

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#12093 - 10/01/08 10:53 AM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: Fist]
Nemesis Offline
senior member


Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2175
Loc: US
I agree. However, I'd like this thread to just run its course (which it pretty much has) to allow Lux to post all possible arguments for his Christian cause. I'd also like to use this thread as a referral for any Jesus peddlers or people coming from a religious standpoint who are trying to understand this philosophy and those who embrace it. I think the posts on this thread were intelligent and covered a lot of ground. There's no reason we should have to go through it all again the next time someone like Lux comes by.
_________________________
Nothing is sacred.

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#12095 - 10/01/08 12:13 PM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: Nemesis]
Fist Moderator Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/31/07
Posts: 1453
Loc: B'mo Cautious MF
All good points!

I think in the past we have been too quick ban users and lock threads of this type.

I am also curious as to how Lux came upon our little group here. Perhaps Xear could ping his IP address. I have my suspicions that he is not in the UK and may be another 352 type deiest doing a sociology experiment.

A good friend of mine growing up worked for the Catholic Church. I was married Catholic and both my kids were baptised in The Church. My son also goes to Catholic School. You might say I know quite a bit about The Church. As a student of the comparative religion, I find Lux to be rather ignorant of the Catholic catechism.
_________________________
I am the Devil and I am here to do the Devil's work.

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#12097 - 10/01/08 12:49 PM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: lux]
Fist Moderator Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/31/07
Posts: 1453
Loc: B'mo Cautious MF
Sorry to pile on, but I am waiting at the airport and I have some time to kill. So, I wanted to clear up a few things.

 Quote:
I think either you or I have our wires crossed, I always believed the “Morning star” refered to Jesus.


Trust me, it's you. Have faith my son.

As is everything in Christianity, Xtians simply co-opt pagan traditions to suit their own purposes. Venus was a Roman goddess long before anyone thought of calling Jesus the morning star. In Roman poetry the planetary body is also referred to metaphorically as Lucifer - bringer of light - The Morning Star.

If you retarded ass had been paying attention in Latin class you would know that 'lux' is the root for 'bright' or 'shining.' Thus, luxuria is 'shiny thing.' Lux lucis is a clearly lit condition. Lumen is lamp/light/a condition sans darkness, or it can mean understanding. Lucifer is one who produces light, brings light, or gives understanding/clarity. Get it?

In other news, even the Xmas shopping festival is a rip off of of several Roman and other pagan holidays that celebrated the end of the winter solstice. In fact, The Church does not have one holiday that does not mirror an ancient pagan holiday.
_________________________
I am the Devil and I am here to do the Devil's work.

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#12099 - 10/01/08 02:32 PM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: Fist]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1646
Loc: Orlando, FL
"Lucifer" is just a title, not a proper noun... it can mean anything from Satan to Venus to Jesus to the Morning Star or what have you.

So it does not EXCLUSIVELY mean one single thing, just as the Pentagram has multiple meanings in different contexts. Both Jesus and Satan can accurately be called Lucifer because it is a title identified with both of them.

However, due to the popularity of the medieval legend of the "rebellion in heaven" and whatnot, Lucifer is PRIMARILY identified with Satan in modern western culture.

Just wanted to clear that up....
_________________________
«Recibe, ¡oh Lucifer! la sangre de esta víctima que sacrifico en tu honor.»

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#12100 - 10/01/08 02:58 PM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: The Zebu]
lux Offline
Banned
pledge


Registered: 09/26/08
Posts: 64
Loc: Newcastle UK
“Paganism does not equate to Satanism, for it is it's own religion. Atheism and Humanism are not religions, but they certainly aren't Satanism.”

Your mixing up your definition of Satanism, with mine there is no absolute truth regarding what Satanism is, is there?

I Refer to idiologys that I regard as “Satan’s promotion tools” those things that have elements of Satanism in it.

“Perhaps it is not that we don't WANT to believe in God, but that some of us are physically UNABLE to believe in God.”

Do you want to believe in God?

“I still find the idea of the supernatural to go against all of my ideas of logic and reason”

Your asking yourself “does God exist” instead of asking yourself, how does it benefit mankind, (not me personally) if God exists?


“Politically, I define myself as an anarchist. I don't see anarchy as Tyranny”

Tyranny is the logical conclusion of Anarchy, you must of heard the term “order out of chaos”

“What would then happen to the Satanists Community in such a situation? They would live in peace with pacific people (the Xians for instance). They don't take the initiative of hurting others. But if some evil guys would come steal or harm the community, then there'll be vengeance. I think he'll think twice coming again anoying us. I suppose he'll find the Xians better candidates for being their victims.”

Such a shame you did not believe in the Christian philosophy for the world even if not for yourself.

“But think about the weaks who take on their shoulders a responsability, a commitment they'll not be able to respect”

Confession, Forgivness, Mercy

Christianity protects the weak from the strong, Christianity builds weak people up, makes them believe in themselves through hope in God. Have you seen the pro life movement in the united states, it has made such massive in roads that an issue once rarely discussed is on almost everyone’s lips from people on welfare right upto the senate, congress and the president. Being pro life or pro choice can decide your political future. Little ordinary people, an organisation I was involved with “the helpers of Gods precious infants” started in New York with a washed up old priest and five old grandmothers, praying outside an abortion clinic, there organisation has gone around the world, from New York to Newcastle UK From America to Africa… simple, weak people, who believe in the power of God and that the power of God is working through them and even if you don’t believe in a god or gods, you can see the power of God or at least the power of the concept of God working in them. Your religion takes you away from God and reduces you to nothing more than an animal, our religion raises you up to a supernatural being.

You believe in your own strength, you set yourself up as your own god, you’re an individual…We believe in a God who Is not mortal, we believe in his strength, it is what unites us… divided we fall, together we stand.

“Yes we do what we want, but not in the "barbarian" sense you imagine.”

Maybe not you, maybe not these on the board, but what of those with real power, real wealth, what about traditional Satanists who believe in human sacrifice etc or just mad men? Satanism or satanic philosophy will enable these “Demons” to be released from their prison that is the Christian moral standard.

“You said Jesus was God, not the son of God”

Jesus is the son of God, Jesus is God.

For someone who was a “true” Christian you don’t seem to have the basic knowledge of the holy trinity.

“I personally don't find it rational to believe in the supernatural”

Because your looking at it the wrong way, if a man hears the fun fair is in town, does he simply stay in the house saying, its lies, all lies, I see no concrete proof, I find no rational to believe the fun fair is in town, its not logical for me to believe it is in town, therefore I am going to reject the whole thing out of hand. Or does he say to himself there might be and head off down the road, he will not know for sure if it is really there until he reaches his journeys end, but he has faith that it is there otherwise he would not have left his house.

“Good golly and gee wiz, wouldn't it be nice to believe in Xtian fairy tales”

Do you want to believe in God?

“But yet you are arguing as if it is fact”

Because I believe in it, I believe it is the right way, I believe it is good for humanity, I believe it is good for the weak, the marginalised, the oppressed, I believe in it, and I hope for an eternal life.

1 Corinthians 15

If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men

St Paul understood the Power of God. The power of belief in something higher than ourselves.

If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching (philosophy) is useless and so is your faith (in that philosophy).

For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile (you can not be raised to anything higher than the natural self) you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost(those who have died for their faith have died for nothing). If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men.

Man needs God, Men need God

“So you are saying that we should all do what the weakest of us want?”

No I am saying that the weak should be protected from the strong.

“However in answer to your question, it's not that I don't WANT to beleive in God, it's that I don't NEED to beleive in God”

And what if other people needed you to believe in God?

“I am also curious as to how Lux came upon our little group here”

I typed into google… Satanic forum


You all seem to forget that Christianity is a religion of the heart not so much the head


Edited by lux (10/01/08 03:09 PM)

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#12101 - 10/01/08 03:36 PM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: blackdragon31560]
blackdragon31560 Offline
pledge


Registered: 08/30/07
Posts: 74
Loc: Hell Paso, TX
 Originally Posted By: blackdragon31560
i read this thread last night, and couldn't help wounder why people are arguing with lux. It's a waste of time, using logic against someone that doesn't believe in it or use it (aka faith)........

............

trying to argue or explain this to Lux, is like talking to a wall.


Just like i was saying, yeah bible thumping

 Quote:

You all seem to forget that Christianity is a religion of the heart not so much the head


i would have thought a Mod or admin would have locked this thread, this is kind of like watching a dog chase its tail, fun but point less.

 Quote:
Christianity protects the weak from the strong, Christianity builds weak people up, makes them believe in themselves through hope in God.


Rrright, just like the jews in WWII, when pope turned them away. They might as well have walked them in to the concentration camps, just to make sure they got there safely.

as for the pro-life movement, it doesn't seem so pro-life in the US:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion-related_violence


Edited by blackdragon31560 (10/01/08 03:42 PM)
Edit Reason: spelling and rewording
_________________________
Hatred is gained as much by good works as by evil.

~ Niccolo Machiavelli

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#12102 - 10/01/08 04:03 PM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: blackdragon31560]
coelentrate Offline
member


Registered: 07/07/08
Posts: 164
Loc: Dundee, Scotland
My answer to the original question.

That humanity is animalistic is not a new idea. See E. O. Wilson's "Sociobiology". And it is not a satanic idea. It's only a scientific idea. The only thing that Satanism has to do with this is to recognize the foolishiness of ignoring and trying to supress this.

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#12103 - 10/01/08 04:12 PM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: lux]
Fabiano Offline
member


Registered: 09/06/08
Posts: 374
 Quote:
“Politically, I define myself as an anarchist. I don't see anarchy as Tyranny”

Tyranny is the logical conclusion of Anarchy, you must of heard the term “order out of chaos”
1st, It's your conclusion, without any kind of logical argumentation.

2nd, you abruptly truncate my words :
 Quote:
Politically, I define myself as an anarchist. I don't see anarchy as Tyranny. Anarchy is the abscence of authority, so just the opposite.
Being Stronger does not mean being nasty or evil. Satanists are kind with their friends, hard with their ennemies.

So I think that in such an anarchical society, where the nature is free to operate its magic, that society will auto-organise. Groups and associations can be created and disolved as necessary, as needed. I see the stronger taking the lead of such group, as "situational leadership".


Again you extract sentences from the context when you write only the underlined extract:
 Quote:
We do not promote "imperfection", we're indulgent. The issue with abstinence is not with people who accept it freely (like some true christians or Satanists).
The problems comes when a Church, an authority imposes such abstinence. For the strongers, it'll not be an issue : or it will make it (as true Xians) or they will rebel against it (as true Satanists).
But think about the weaks who take on their shoulders a responsability, a commitment they'll not be able to respect. Those to weak for admitting their sins, thos too weak for rebelling and says "it's not a sin"?
We do not promote "imperfection", we're indulgent. The issue with abstinence is not with people who accept it freely (like some true christians or Satanists).
The problems comes when a Church, an authority imposes such abstinence. For the strongers, it'll not be an issue : or it will make it (as true Xians) or they will rebel against it (as true Satanists).
But think about the weaks who take on their shoulders a responsability, a commitment they'll not be able to respect. Those to weak for admitting their sins, thos too weak for rebelling and says "it's not a sin"?
Then they'll build a respectable façade and will commit their "sins" secretly.
Or like Torquemada, they'll will play the malignant, the Evil-minded, twisting his own bible for justificating their actions. They will argue & convince others that all these evil actions are justified by some good/God reason.


Your answer : "Confession, Forgivness, Mercy"

How those who're too weak for admitting their sins could confess ?
(I suppose I don't need to explain what power the confession gives to the priest & the church)

 Quote:
Maybe not you, maybe not these on the board, but what of those with real power, real wealth, what about traditional Satanists who believe in human sacrifice etc or just mad men? Satanism or satanic philosophy will enable these “Demons” to be released from their prison that is the Christian moral standard.


That's the point. You entered here for "knowing about Satanism". We repeated that we're Modern Satanists. And you continue to mix us up with all kind of "mad mens". We're not responsible for them. We're in favour that each individual takes his responsabilities.

2nd, what about the one with real power who went to war in Iraq. Was he a Satanist? What about Protestant vs Catholic war in the UK? Is you christian moral really able to keep these "Demons" in "prison" ?

But at least you admit the Christian moral is a prison. Well!


 Quote:
“You said Jesus was God, not the son of God”

Jesus is the son of God, Jesus is God.


You don't answer the question! So how can Jesus ignore something if he's God?


Fabiano

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#12107 - 10/01/08 06:14 PM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: lux]
ta2zz Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 1552
Loc: Connecticut

Oh what the heck… Why not…

 Originally Posted By: lux
Your asking yourself “does God exist” instead of asking yourself, how does it benefit mankind, (not me personally) if God exists?

It gives man an external being to blame unexplained happenings on… It also gives them a scapegoat to blame rather than admit that ones own laziness is the main reason they cannot get what they want, or why it is they do the things they do… God wanted it so or it was not gods way is so much easier to swallow… ;\)

 Originally Posted By: lux
Christianity protects the weak from the strong

Does it really?

 Originally Posted By: lux
Christianity builds weak people up, makes them believe in themselves through hope in God.

Oh ok… So they are not just hoping for better after this life?

 Originally Posted By: lux
Have you seen the pro life movement in the united states

simple, weak people, who believe in the power of God and that the power of God is working through them and even if you don’t believe in a god or gods, you can see the power of God or at least the power of the concept of God working in them.

I present to you a few men who felt the power of god working through them…

Eric Robert Rudolph - The Christian Identity movement
E. Rudolph

James Charles Kopp - The Lambs of Christ, AKA-Victim Souls of the Unborn Christ-Child
J._C._Kopp

Peter James Knight – pro lifer
P. J. Knight

Can you dig the power of god working in these people…

 Originally Posted By: lux
Your religion takes you away from God and reduces you to nothing more than an animal, our religion raises you up to a supernatural being.

Religion? The philosophy I follow teaches one to only blame themselves for acting out on such urges… No need to blame God, Satan, Santa, or the Easter bunny…

 Originally Posted By: lux
Maybe not you, maybe not these on the board, but what of those with real power, real wealth, what about traditional Satanists who believe in human sacrifice etc or just mad men? Satanism or satanic philosophy will enable these “Demons” to be released from their prison that is the Christian moral standard.

Your religion is a breeding ground for many of the worlds monsters… From doctor killers to pedophile priests being protected from the weak by the rich…

 Originally Posted By: lux
Because your looking at it the wrong way, if a man hears the fun fair is in town, does he simply stay in the house saying, its lies, all lies, I see no concrete proof

Your grasping at straws, your comparisons are not logical…

 Originally Posted By: lux
Do you want to believe in God?

No… Do you want to believe in Xenu?

 Quote:
“But yet you are arguing as if it is fact”

 Originally Posted By: lux
Because I believe in it, I believe it is the right way, I believe it is good for humanity, I believe it is good for the weak, the marginalised, the oppressed, I believe in it, and I hope for an eternal life.

For many years mankind believed the world was flat and that dragons and sea creatures killed any who traveled too far… Death is guaranteed eternal life is nothing but a hope to calm the fear of the ultimate end…

 Originally Posted By: lux
You all seem to forget that Christianity is a religion of the heart not so much the head

I would say quite the opposite Christianity is a religion based on blind faith… This is all in the head and nowhere near the heart…

Peace

~T~
_________________________
We are the music makers, And we are the dreamers of dreams. ~Arthur William Edgar O'Shaughnessy

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#12109 - 10/01/08 07:46 PM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: ta2zz]
lux Offline
Banned
pledge


Registered: 09/26/08
Posts: 64
Loc: Newcastle UK
“Rrright, just like the jews in WWII, when pope turned them away. They might as well have walked them in to the concentration camps, just to make sure they got there safely.”

You know the pope and the church took a lot of sh*t over that even to the point where a number of popes have apologised but when a vatican document from the time was finally approved for access to historians,(eairlier this year) it was found that many of the accusations came from (I think it said) communist circles to try to discredit the church.

I am sure if you google it and have the patients of sifting through all the crapolla you will the news report. The point being that catholics have many enemies who try to discredit the church with over exagerations and fabrications.

Catholics died along side their jewish bretheren, a lot of Jews were baptized catholics in order to get them out of eurpoe, You have to remember the pope had to think of protecting his flock, he could not speak out too much.

Read about Maximilian Kolbe

http://www.catholic.org.sg/cn/wordpress/?p=2472

“That's the point. You entered here for "knowing about Satanism". We repeated that we're Modern Satanists. And you continue to mix us up with all kind of "mad mens". We're not responsible for them. We're in favour that each individual takes his responsabilities.”

I am not mixing you up at all. I know your different, ah I just don’t think you get what I am saying… if this Satanist philosophy is promoted in society via whatever means under the guise of Atheism, materialism or whatever, it will be used by the most unscrupioulous men to enslave the population.

“2nd, what about the one with real power who went to war in Iraq. Was he a Satanist? What about Protestant vs Catholic war in the UK? Is you christian moral really able to keep these "Demons" in "prison" ?”

As for GW Bush, we have all heard the rumours of Bohimian Grove.

Protestant v Catholic in uk, your talking of either the reformation in uk or the trouble in Ireland, first was about political upheaval, King Henry wanted to do what he wanted and marry another woman, he was thinking about himself, yes that is Satanism. Ireland about land and trade, not religion. Well lets put it this way, we can severely hinder them, you have to remember we live in a post Christian society, there is no real Christian morality left except in the people who are Christian and in certain laws of the land, otherwise our morality is starting to be ridiculed.

“But at least you admit the Christian moral is a prison. Well!”

A prison for the demons yes.

“How those who're too weak for admitting their sins could confess ?
(I suppose I don't need to explain what power the confession gives to the priest & the church)”

What about them, their sins are between God and themselves, I would encourage them to go to confession, confess they have sins they feel they can not expand upon but that they do repent of these sins and receive absolution.

“We're not responsible for them. We're in favour that each individual takes his responsabilities.”

And if the philosophy you promote enables them to “do as they will” you do not take any responsibility for this?

“It gives man an external being to blame unexplained happenings on… It also gives them a scapegoat to blame rather than admit that ones own laziness is the main reason they cannot get what they want, or why it is they do the things they do… God wanted it so or it was not gods way is so much easier to swallow… “

Yes it can do that, but whats the problem with that, but there is much more it does for the human race, your talking of individuals, we are not centered on ourselves, we Catholics… i.e Universalists….

“Oh ok… So they are not just hoping for better after this life?”

Historically the Catholic people have very focused on the here and now

St Paul, had to correct the Christians early on to keep hope in the next life because so many were centred on this life.

Again from 1 Cor 15

If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching (philosophy) is useless and so is your faith (in that philosophy).

For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile (you can not be raised to anything higher than the natural self) you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost(those who have died for their faith have died for nothing). If *only* for *this life* we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men.

“I present to you a few men who felt the power of god working through them…

Eric Robert Rudolph - The Christian Identity movement

James Charles Kopp - The Lambs of Christ, AKA-Victim Souls of the Unborn Christ-Child

Peter James Knight – pro lifer”

While the catholic church has not sanctioned it, and proclaims a peaceful approach to the holocaust and those who act outside of this proclamation, exact immediate excommunication, I also present you with this.

From Catholic Answers:

"THE ROOTS OF JUST WAR DOCTRINE

In the Beatitudes, Jesus tells us "blessed are the peacemakers" (Matt. 5:9). Elsewhere in the Sermon on the Mount he tells us "if any one strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also" (Matt. 5:39). From such verses some have concluded that Christianity is a pacifist religion and that violence is never permitted.

But the same Jesus elsewhere acknowledges the legitimate use of force, telling the apostles, "let him who has no sword sell his mantle and buy one" (Luke 22:36). How are these passages to be reconciled?

In broad terms, Christians must not love violence. They must promote peace whenever possible and be slow to resort to the use of arms. But they must not be afraid to do so when it is called for. Evil must not be allowed to remain unchecked.

Added weight is given to this realization when one recognizes that Scripture -- all of Scripture -- is inspired by God (2 Tim. 3:16). This means that the Old Testament is just as inspired as the New Testament and thus an expression of the will of Christ.

The Old Testament acknowledges frankly that there is "a time to kill" (Eccles. 3:3). At various times in the Old Testament, God commanded the Israelites to defend their nation by force of arms. Yet it was always with the recognition that peace is the goal to be worked for. Thus the psalmist exclaims, "how good and pleasant it is when brothers dwell in unity!" (Ps. 133:1). Peace is the goal, but when it cannot be achieved without force, force must be used.

In the same way, the New Testament sets forth the goal of peace but acknowledges the legitimate use of force. It does so by John the Baptist's acknowledgment that Roman soldiers, whose job it was to enforce the Pax Romana, or "Peace of Rome," could keep their jobs (Luke 3:14) and by Paul's observation that the state "does not bear the sword in vain" but is "God's servant for your good" (Rom. 13:4).

As long as Christianity remained a minority religion in the Roman Empire, it was not forced to put these insights together into a formal theory of when warfare could be used. But as Christianity grew predominant, more attention had to be devoted to this subject. By the time of Augustine (A.D. 354-430) the need for a theory of when warfare was just was keen, and Augustine provided one, crystallizing biblical principles into what is now known as just war doctrine. In the intervening centuries the theory has been refined, but its framework remains as he gave it.

JUST WAR DOCTRINE TODAY

The most authoritative and up-to-date expression of just war doctrine is found in paragraph 2309 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church. It says:

The strict conditions for legitimate defense by military force require rigorous consideration. The gravity of such a decision makes it subject to rigorous conditions of moral legitimacy. At one and the same time:

• the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain;
• all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective;
• there must be serious prospects of success;
• the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power of modern means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition.

These are the traditional elements enumerated in what is called the "just war" doctrine. The evaluation of these conditions for moral legitimacy belongs to the prudential judgment of those who have responsibility for the common good

In the case of abortion the Aggressor is the state itself, the lasting effect of abortion is underpopulation in Europe, it is grave in its potential to cause collapse in the economy… but it is not certain as yet.

There are many avenues now being persued, they have by no means failed, however it does not stop people believing that they will.

The pope called abortion an intrinsic evil, the primary evil in todays society. What wepons used could be graver than this except a nuke?

I do not condone what these men did, but I understand, I am a sympathiser, my only real objection is the killing of the abortionists, it should be pro choice legislators.

Another line from the catechism states regarding legitimate defense

"Legitimate defense can be not only a right but a grave duty for one who is responsible for the lives of others. The defense of the common good requires that an unjust aggressor be rendered unable to cause harm. For this reason, those who legitimately hold authority also have the right to use arms to repel aggressors against the civil community entrusted to their responsibility"

Who has more authority than God's own Church, the whole world is entrusted to the magestirum of rome... I would take up arms if the vatican would decalre a just war on abortion.

“Religion? The philosophy I follow teaches one to only blame themselves for acting out on such urges… No need to blame God, Satan, Santa, or the Easter bunny…”

Blame, what you talking about blame?

“Your religion is a breeding ground for many of the worlds monsters… From doctor killers to pedophile priests being protected from the weak by the rich…”

Doctor killers, you mean killer doctors?

Regarding the cover up, they were protected by their bishops, not the rich. BTW most of those men were homosexual infiltrtors. But still the numbers are insignificant compaired to teachers.

“No… Do you want to believe in Xenu?”

I don’t know who xenu is and i have never heard his philosophy.

So how could i possibly answer?


Edited by lux (10/01/08 07:55 PM)

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#12110 - 10/01/08 07:47 PM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: lux]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1646
Loc: Orlando, FL
I Refer to idiologys that I regard as “Satan’s promotion tools” those things that have elements of Satanism in it.

Wait... WHAT? Many forms of paganism are "white-light" varieties that promote morality, altruism, and love. How could these possibly be the tools of an evil being? To quote the "good book", a house divided against itself cannot stand.

Do you want to believe in God?

Whether I want to or not is irrelevant. Sure, I'd like to believe in Santa Claus, but that wouldn't make any difference over whether or not he exists.

Christianity protects the weak from the strong, Christianity builds weak people up, makes them believe in themselves through hope in God... etc

It's not just religion... people find strength in all sorts of ideologies, not just ones based around "God". What ideologies do is give people hope and inspiration, and a sense of "purpose". I've met a few people who could be considered "born again Pagans" for how big a deal they make over how their religion bettered their lives.

Your religion takes you away from God and reduces you to nothing more than an animal,

"Nothing more" than an animal? That's what we are, and we're not ashamed to embrace the reality of it.

what about traditional Satanists who believe in human sacrifice etc or just mad men? Satanism or satanic philosophy will enable these “Demons” to be released from their prison that is the Christian moral standard.

Only one or two whackjobs believe in crazy shit like human sacrifice.... and they are certainly outnumbered by murderers and other madmen who believe they are doing the work of Jesus.

Man needs God, Men need God

No, the proper statement would be "MOST men need RELIGION".

Someone posted a link explaining how the human behavioral desire for "something more" leads us to religion. To say that mankind is only drawn to Yahweh is ridiculous- look at the multitude of other gods throughout history! People have found meaning and satisfaction in those gods as well.

Wiccans find meaning and inspiration in the Mother Goddess.

Asatruar find meaning and inspiration in the Nordic Gods.

Followers of Hindu find meaning and inspiration in the Hindu Gods.

We find this meaning and satisfaction in our idea of Satan.

However there are some atheists who are fine and happy with no religion. We respect their decision. Who are you to say that they are unfulfilled?
_________________________
«Recibe, ¡oh Lucifer! la sangre de esta víctima que sacrifico en tu honor.»

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#12112 - 10/01/08 08:12 PM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: The Zebu]
lux Offline
Banned
pledge


Registered: 09/26/08
Posts: 64
Loc: Newcastle UK
I dont get it, you seem to be missing the point on every thing i post, your keep going back to the individual instead of looking at humanity as a whole, its like i am saying one thing and your hearing something totaly different. I have been more open and direct with you lot than i have with any other group, but despite my directness your still on a entirely different wavelengh, my words seem to mean something differnet to you than they do to me.... its bizzar and its doing my head in.

I started off being cryptic, you didnt get it, I started getting less and less cryptic but you could only see in my posts the things you wanted to see... it makes me wonder if you really do understand but you just try to discredit it be turnining it into something its not.... or perhaps the saying is right, there are non so blind as those who do not want to see.

I refer you to a book that will explain Christian philosophy better than I. But you will probably so hung up on "but there is no proof of a god" and on yourself and your own ability to reason, that you will fail to see it dosnt matter.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM


Edited by lux (10/01/08 08:14 PM)

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#12114 - 10/01/08 08:42 PM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: lux]
paradise lost Offline
Idiot: Banned
stranger


Registered: 09/19/08
Posts: 11
with all do respect what kind of god tries to change us think about it.

ur god is unjust fowl countless of countries fight over the same name of god.

if it wasnt for us.

human beings of higher capabilities like us.

ur thread of interwoven hypocracy also known the bible,coran,etc...

would not exist!

our work is the work of the living!

your work is dead Xian.

our bible changes through time ur "good bible" stays the same and has been the same just different wording for the ages before the age of set.

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#12117 - 10/01/08 09:34 PM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: lux]
Fabiano Offline
member


Registered: 09/06/08
Posts: 374
Lux,

I have that same feeling to be in a "deaf dialogue". We must admit that we have radically opposed positions. And there are few chances one of us changes his position. All what we can do is to try to understand better the other's point of view, the stranger, the alien's point of view.

I want to thank you for your book, but I already read the bible and made my own opinion about it.
Regarding the churchs, as I sayed in an imaged way, trying to "enter your world", I was the man John complained about because he wasn't part of the church. I always considered my faith, my religion was regarding only my God and myself.
I can explain my point of view and debate, this sometime makes me understand something more. But I was distrustful to those telling me that they better understand the bible than myself, telling me how I should think. So, I hope you'll understand your book does not interrest me a lot, sorry. I would like to spend my time in digging in Satanism...

A already debated with Catholics, Witesses of Jehova, and other kinds of Xians. They're always trying to convince you that your soul is lost unless if you go with them.
Satanists are far less proselitic! If you ask we give our opinion, but only if you ask...

What I retain from our exchanges, is that we're probably not very "evil". Neither me, neither you. They're are good and evil men in any group, so in any church... I hope you now know better what is moderm Satanism and saw that it's not so "evil".

I appreciated debating with you. But we're just on two different paths, you're on the Right Hand one and I'm on the Left Hand Path.

I sincerely wish you good luck, Lux.

Fabiano


Edited by Fabiano (10/01/08 09:40 PM)

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#12118 - 10/01/08 10:26 PM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: lux]
Nemesis Offline
senior member


Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2175
Loc: US
 Quote:
You know the pope and the church took a lot of sh*t over that even to the point where a number of popes have apologised but when a vatican document from the time was finally approved for access to historians,(eairlier this year) it was found that many of the accusations came from (I think it said) communist circles to try to discredit the church.

Sorry, we're gonna have to see this validated. If you can provide a link to a scan of the document, that'd be great.

 Quote:
I am not mixing you up at all. I know your different, ah I just don’t think you get what I am saying… if this Satanist philosophy is promoted in society via whatever means under the guise of atheism, materialism or whatever, it will be used by the most unscrupioulous men to enslave the population.

 Quote:
your keep going back to the individual instead of looking at humanity as a whole, its like i am saying one thing and your hearing something totaly different.

Now I know that the above two posts were directed at different replies, but do you see how you're being a bit hypocritical, comparing your statements? You have pinned down this way of thinking that humanity needs Christianity, yet still think of Satanists and their philosophy as individuals or isolated cases.

What would the world be like if the coin was reversed, and we lived in a majorally Satanic society? Feel free to compare it with your own ideals:

Rape would be outlawed.

Murder of innocent animals such as pets and endangered species would be outlawed and enforced.

Appeals in the court system would not exist, nor would there be such a thing as "Death Row". Once you are convicted of a capital crime like murder, rape, intentional maiming or anything that compromises safety of innocents, you would be taken out back and shot in the head.

There would be incentives for familes to have no more than two children, instead of rewarding families with welfare checks for popping out kids to "be fruitful and multiply", thereby depleting our resources.

Welfare would not exist, because everyone would have a job to do unti they could get back on their feet.

Programs to aid people in job loss recovery would be available, as well as a limited time span in which one would have to get the fuck back on their feet and start earning a living again. Otherwise they risk deportation to Mexico.

Self-defense, provided there were witnesses, would never have to be justified in a court. Also, all legal citizens 21 and up have the right to carry, as long as they take a thorough concealed carry class and carry a permit on them at all times.

There would be no tax benefits for married couples, nor any legal hindrances to couples who elect not to get married. Marriage would be strictly a personal commitment, without any religious connotations.

A woman has the right to choose, but if the father is present, he might also have a say if he accepts full responsibility and compensates the mother for her expenses and effort to bear the child. Deadbeat dads would be a thing of the past, as these men would be found and persecuted immediately, their bank account drained and assets liquidated to compensate the family he left. Unless he filed for being in absentia with the government (for example if the mother was a shrew or he had violent tendencies and couldn't be around the kids), he could leave but would have to pay out the ass for it.

Drugs are legal and heavily regulated and taxed to provide income for the states.

Education is mandatory, and would be held up to the highest standards, competetive with countries who tend to do better than us.

There would be no such thing as "sexual deviation", because there would be no taboos to rebel against.

No affirmative action--you're hired or fired depending on your level of skill, not what color or gender you are.

Everyone would be taxed a certain percentage, no matter how much you make. If you were smart and created a successful business, you shouldn't have to be penalized for it.

Prisons like Guantanamo Bay would not exist, because these people convicted of carrying out or planning attacks on innocents would be executed.

 Quote:
And if the philosophy you promote enables them to “do as they will” you do not take any responsibility for this?

In case you haven't understood the whole gist of Satanism, and us, to put in Peter Gilmore's words, "Satanists follow the letter of the law". Above I gave you some examples of how things would work under a Satanic governing principle (although many here might disagree with me on a few points or have ones of their own to add). They might seem harsh to you, but they are clear, they are civilized, and they are humane. As Satanists, we wouldn't be enacting laws that went against our human nature, to fuck, to drink, to hunt, to enjoy ourselves as we see fit. We would not need an onslaught of laws to reign us in, as do the Christianized and Islamic countries.

For example: What if it was illegal to smoke on the sidewalk? It's a stupid law, and many would be caught breaking it. What if it was illegal to fuck someone in the ass? A law that has no business telling people what to do, and yet millions will break it. In both cases, there is no harm befalling anyone, both laws are governed by a twisted sense of morality.

A Satanic world would be freer yet harsh compared with what we have now. It would cull the weak (note, not necessarily kill, but these kinds of people would not succeed in life and would not be encouraged to stay).

 Quote:
For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either.

Well there you go! Finally, something you've said that is logical and makes sense.

 Quote:
if any one strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also

Only if it's my right ass cheek, because I love a nice spanking. Spices things up a little, you know?

 Quote:
From such verses some have concluded that Christianity is a pacifist religion and that violence is never permitted.

Only those who have not read the Old Testament and learned of what a vicious god you serve. While it may cancel out some of the laws that governed the tribes, the New Testament does not erase god's atrocities visited upon the human race through the ages.

 Quote:
The Old Testament acknowledges frankly that there is "a time to kill" (Eccles. 3:3). At various times in the Old Testament, God commanded the Israelites to defend their nation by force of arms. Yet it was always with the recognition that peace is the goal to be worked for. Thus the psalmist exclaims, "how good and pleasant it is when brothers dwell in unity!" (Ps. 133:1). Peace is the goal, but when it cannot be achieved without force, force must be used.

Mwhahahahahahahaha!!!! That's a good one! How many other neighboring tribes were annihilated just under the leadership of Joshua at God's instruction? As the aggressors, not the defenders?

 Quote:
In the case of abortion the Aggressor is the state itself, the lasting effect of abortion is underpopulation in Europe, it is grave in its potential to cause collapse in the economy… but it is not certain as yet.

That has to be one of the most ignorant things I've ever heard. Europe's population loss is mainly due to young people seeking a better education and future which is not to be found in their native countries. That, and parents who are living longer and better lives, and who elect to have fewer children than in previous generations.

 Quote:
Doctor killers, you mean killer doctors?

You sympathize with one, we the other. They are both murderers. Here you go, putting value on one person's life over another...hmmm, funny how you accused us of that when it came to fetuses vs mothers.
_________________________
Nothing is sacred.

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#12119 - 10/01/08 11:12 PM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: Nemesis]
fakepropht Moderator Offline
Big Slick
active member


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 990
Loc: Texas
One thing you touched on briefly, though indirectly, is that stupidy would be punished. There would be no million dollar rewards given to the dumbass that spilled hot coffee in her lap and burnt her cootchie. Don't expect a helping hand because you can barely speak the language, even though you were born here. Stupidity, to me, should be punished to the fullest extent. It's an overused quote, but for good reason, "Stupidity should be painful".
_________________________
Beer, the reason I get up every afternoon.

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#12123 - 10/02/08 02:48 AM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: lux]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
I browsed a bit through your philosophy link and seriously; do you guys shut down your brain when reading that stuff? It's so contradicting it becomes embarrasing.

Look at these gems:

 Quote:
1731 Freedom is the power, rooted in reason and will, to act or not to act, to do this or that, and so to perform deliberate actions on one's own responsibility. By free will one shapes one's own life. Human freedom is a force for growth and maturity in truth and goodness; it attains its perfection when directed toward God, our beatitude.

1732 As long as freedom has not bound itself definitively to its ultimate good which is God, there is the possibility of choosing between good and evil, and thus of growing in perfection or of failing and sinning. This freedom characterizes properly human acts. It is the basis of praise or blame, merit or reproach.

1733 The more one does what is good, the freer one becomes. There is no true freedom except in the service of what is good and just. the choice to disobey and do evil is an abuse of freedom and leads to "the slavery of sin."


 Quote:
1849 Sin is an offense against reason, truth, and right conscience; it is failure in genuine love for God and neighbor caused by a perverse attachment to certain goods. It wounds the nature of man and injures human solidarity. It has been defined as "an utterance, a deed, or a desire contrary to the eternal law."121

1850 Sin is an offense against God: "Against you, you alone, have I sinned, and done that which is evil in your sight."122 Sin sets itself against God's love for us and turns our hearts away from it. Like the first sin, it is disobedience, a revolt against God through the will to become "like gods,"123 knowing and determining good and evil. Sin is thus "love of oneself even to contempt of God."124 In this proud self-exaltation, sin is diametrically opposed to the obedience of Jesus, which achieves our salvation.125


D.

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#12124 - 10/02/08 02:57 AM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: Fist]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
This Jesus being the morning star or not reminded me of another series of flics I watched a while back about astrology and the roots of christian myths. Dunno if you ever saw them but I did find them interesting.

Truth about Religion Part 1 of 3
Truth about Religion Part 2 of 3
Truth about Religion Part 3 of 3

D.

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#12125 - 10/02/08 02:57 AM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: fakepropht]
paradise lost Offline
Idiot: Banned
stranger


Registered: 09/19/08
Posts: 11
i agree with nemisis on his views.

but i have some questions because i just started the rituals like maybe a half a year ago.

but if i was to make a dumb ass move and do some thing like quit school.

by geting involved with really high priority sects such as the order of nine angles or the Church of Satan would i be able to some how fix my mistake?

all my life i was facinated with magic so facinated that i really want to work with the practice of magic.

like if a wanted a career that i liked or job i would want it to have something to do with Satanism/ or magic.

what do you guyz think?

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#12127 - 10/02/08 03:33 AM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: paradise lost]
daevid777 Offline
active member


Registered: 08/30/07
Posts: 951
Loc: Hell's Pisshole, Texas
Go to College.

Get enrolled, take some basic courses that bore the hell out of you, and listen well. Learn all you can about Government, History, Art Appreciation, Calculus, Women or Men (is that a class now?).

Go see the guy playing Bongos for cash, and give him some, buy the crappy artwork from the bum, and give him something extra so he can get drunk and sleep in some field, and be thankful that your not playing the bongos for money, and you don't have to sleep in a field.

"Magic" is "life". "Magic" takes work...

I don't seem to be getting through, so I'll horribly paraphrase a story that means a lot to me...

The story is set in China...

Or, where-ever the fuck you want it to be, I was just trying to be dramatic...

The student comes running up to his master, and with pride, says "Master, I've learned to walk upon the water", "I can walk from here to the othe side of the river".

The master, being wise ('cause masters are supposed to be wise), smacks the shit out of this piece of shit loser-ass wannabe, and says (remember I'm paraphrasing) "You stupid-ass fuck, you can get across the river for twenty-five cents on the ferry..."

(Yeah, bad re-telling, but I like my version better, anyway.)

Life is passing by... "Do, or Do not, there is no 'try'" - that's Yoda, damnit. And if you don't know what I'm talking about, then at least listen to Yoda.

What the hell was this thread about anyway?
_________________________
Where we're going, we don't need roads.

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#12129 - 10/02/08 05:01 AM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: Diavolo]
DistroyA Offline
member


Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 478
Loc: Mansfield, Nottinghamshire, UK
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
This Jesus being the morning star or not reminded me of another series of flics I watched a while back about astrology and the roots of christian myths. Dunno if you ever saw them but I did find them interesting.

Truth about Religion Part 1 of 3
Truth about Religion Part 2 of 3
Truth about Religion Part 3 of 3

D.
Zeitgeist. A very enlightening view methinks. Gives a lot to think about, and isn't offensive about it either. Plus it gives evidence to back it up the claims as well.
_________________________
"A man chooses, a slave obeys." - Andrew Ryan of Ryan Industries (Bioshock)

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#12131 - 10/02/08 07:22 AM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: DistroyA]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
I can't say if all information in the movie is verified or beyond doubt but personally I do think Jesus is nothing but a composed figure. If you think about memetics and religion, it makes sense that roots of older religions and myths can be found in more recent versions. We see in later aspects of christianity how they absorbed pagan myths and gods.
Religion seems to be some sort of mutating meme(cluster) with a very strong survival potency.

There are also some remarkable parallels between the last part of the Jesus myth and those of the Assyrian-Babylonian Bel.
This site gives more details about it (halfway down the page or so):

link:
Ancient Egyptian Mythical Parallels to the Jesus Myth

D.

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#12132 - 10/02/08 09:59 AM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: lux]
Fist Moderator Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/31/07
Posts: 1453
Loc: B'mo Cautious MF
 Quote:
Do you want to believe in God?


No. Does that help you out now? If I am going to believe in something I will believe in myself. I have also been known to have faith in the guy to the left and right of me.

I have answered you direct question with a direct answer. Now it is my turn:

Do you believe in Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny?
_________________________
I am the Devil and I am here to do the Devil's work.

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#12136 - 10/02/08 03:06 PM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: Fist]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1646
Loc: Orlando, FL
haha, I think we've used that example to death.
:|

Zeitgeist does have the overall right idea, but annoys me because it is inaccurate with regards to a lot of small details.

So anyways, I think the major difference is that we don't believe in ideas like "sanctity" or "sin", so Lux's arguments derived from these concepts aren't really going to matter...
_________________________
«Recibe, ¡oh Lucifer! la sangre de esta víctima que sacrifico en tu honor.»

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#12137 - 10/02/08 03:19 PM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: The Zebu]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3138
 Quote:
Do you want to believe in God?

Everything is an illusion. You are an illusion, this forum is an illusion the whole world is an illusion. The only thing wich isn't an illusion is me because I know I'll be there for myself the rest of my life.

So this means, believing is creating an illusion within an illusion. That makes god negative and not existant.
_________________________
Ut vivat, crescat et floreat

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#12140 - 10/02/08 03:31 PM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: Dimitri]
DistroyA Offline
member


Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 478
Loc: Mansfield, Nottinghamshire, UK
 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
 Quote:
Do you want to believe in God?

Everything is an illusion. You are an illusion, this forum is an illusion the whole world is an illusion. The only thing wich isn't an illusion is me because I know I'll be there for myself the rest of my life.

So this means, believing is creating an illusion within an illusion. That makes god negative and not existant.
Sounds like you're a nihilist. Nothing wrong with that ideal at all.

As for the thread, why won't it die? Heheh
_________________________
"A man chooses, a slave obeys." - Andrew Ryan of Ryan Industries (Bioshock)

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#12141 - 10/02/08 04:30 PM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: DistroyA]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3138
I'm not a nihilist DistroyA, I'm more of a person who says such things for fun. And I happen to notice most people who claim their religion is the true one can't come up with a nice answer on it.

And perhaps I'm bit too tired and don't know what I'm saying..
_________________________
Ut vivat, crescat et floreat

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#12145 - 10/02/08 05:41 PM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: Dimitri]
DistroyA Offline
member


Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 478
Loc: Mansfield, Nottinghamshire, UK
Oh right. Sorry. My mistake.

I guess I misinterpreted your response, as from what I've read up on the subject, nihilism suggests that everything is an illusion and that nothing exists. I guess I got my wires crossed and assumed too early. Oh well, lesson learned, eh? \:\)
_________________________
"A man chooses, a slave obeys." - Andrew Ryan of Ryan Industries (Bioshock)

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#12149 - 10/02/08 06:13 PM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: DistroyA]
lux Offline
Banned
pledge


Registered: 09/26/08
Posts: 64
Loc: Newcastle UK
"Do you believe in Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny?"

It depends, I believe in them because they are good to get kids excited but by no means should santa claus and the easter bunny replace the real reasons why we celebrate christmas and easter, I especially believe in them if they are used in the correct manner of educating children about the resurection/spring/ new life, easter bunny/ easter chicks, rebirth in christ. how santa claus is really based on St Nicholas who would give children presents around at the festival of Christs birth,how christ recieved presents from special people becuase he was a king and that St Nicholas for his kindness and the kind of life he lead, is a special person a saint by and we know he has eternal life, so we follow his example and give each other presnts, each one of us is santa claus, each one of us is the easter bunny.

Yes if used in the right context I believe in them but if used in the wrong context, to detract the mind away from their true meaning then obviously i dont believe in them in that way


Edited by lux (10/02/08 06:15 PM)

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#12150 - 10/02/08 06:26 PM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: lux]
ZephyrGirl Offline
R.I.P.
active member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 706
Loc: Adelaide Australia
 Quote:
What if other NEEDED you to beleive in God


Like who? My kids don't need me to, they are free to make up their own minds. My parents and brothers and sister don't need me to, neither does my employer, partner, friends or aquaintances. So who then is left? Strangers? I don't care what a stranger needs to continue his self dillusion.

You however, haven't answered one of the question I posed in my thread to you. Which means one of two things:

1) You didn't actually read it properly as you are a rude prick.

2) You don't like or have any answers to the questions, so you have decided to ignore them as you are a rude prick.

So again my question.

Name me one good reason that a person shouldn't be selfish if that is their natural disposition, without using God, the bible or the Church in the answer?

Zeph
_________________________
Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass -
It's about learning to dance in the rain.


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#12151 - 10/02/08 07:26 PM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: lux]
Fist Moderator Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/31/07
Posts: 1453
Loc: B'mo Cautious MF
 Quote:
It depends, I believe in them because ....


?

WTF?

Ok, this is really simple. A yes or no will do. Do you believe in Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny?

By the way, the real reason we have the Xmas shopping season and Easter is because early Xtians co-opted ancient pagan holidays celebrating the end of the winter solstice and the fertility of spring.
_________________________
I am the Devil and I am here to do the Devil's work.

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#12153 - 10/02/08 09:02 PM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: lux]
Nemesis Offline
senior member


Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2175
Loc: US
Lux,

Why is it that thus far you have started only one thread, and all of your replies have been confined to this one? If you really wanted to understand Satanism, you would have posted in other areas of the forum, asking different questions, in order to compile a more rounded-out view of this group of people/philosophy you claim to want to know more about.

On that point, you really didn't ask very in-depth questions, but instead have gone on at length about YOUR beliefs, YOUR rules and laws, YOUR ideals of society. You've done little else but counter our logical arguments with subjective questions, ones that bear little in relation to the topic at hand. For instance, in an earlier post, I'd asked you to read an article about the possiblity that certain people may be genetically predisposed to believe in a higher power, while others may not. Not only did you have ZERO opinion on that, but you cut and pasted a quote I made, and asked me if I wanted to believe in God. WHAT THE FUCK DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH THE DISCUSSION? If I lack the so-called "God Gene", it wouldn't be a matter of WANT, it would be a matter of PHYSIOLOGICAL INABILITY. That, and halfway through this thread you make the outrageous statement that you think YOU know more about Satanism than WE do! That's just too goddamned funny.

No, I think that you came here to prove a point in your own mind, to yourself, to reaffirm whatever it is you put your belief in, to reassure yourself that you are in the right and we are so very in the wrong, whether you want to be a grownup and admit it or not. Either that, or you were hoping to save a few "lost" souls that you thought you knew what was best for them. You may have done it in a more civilized manner than most, but nobody just decides they want to know about ONE particular aspect of Satanism, completely out of the blue, and do little else but spout their own teachings and pathetic arguments for the fairy tales they believe in.

So tell us, Lux. What is the REAL reason you're here?
_________________________
Nothing is sacred.

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#12154 - 10/02/08 09:10 PM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: Nemesis]
Fist Moderator Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/31/07
Posts: 1453
Loc: B'mo Cautious MF
Well, of course, he is here for no other reason than to babble on for 10 pages about the bible story that we all already know and reject.

Like all of the other churchies that have come before him, he is doing his duty to preach the word to the heathens.

He is impervious to logic because his faith trumps logic and reason. 1+1=3 if God says it's so!

All the same, I still want to know if he believes in Santa Clause.
_________________________
I am the Devil and I am here to do the Devil's work.

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#12156 - 10/02/08 09:23 PM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: Fist]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1646
Loc: Orlando, FL
Lux:

Actually, Nemesis brings up a good point... try posting in different topics and engaging in other conversations, other than this increasingly-tiring thread.

Maybe then you might start understanding where we're coming from a bit more...
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#12157 - 10/02/08 09:35 PM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: The Zebu]
DistroyA Offline
member


Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 478
Loc: Mansfield, Nottinghamshire, UK
I've got a suggestion;

If lux doesn't want to converse more logically and wants to continue quoting his precious fairytale book (And as Zebu has stated, the thread's getting tiring (More like irritating if you ask me...)), why don't we just ignore and/or get this thread locked?

Just a suggestion of course. I'm done with this thread now...
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"A man chooses, a slave obeys." - Andrew Ryan of Ryan Industries (Bioshock)

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#12158 - 10/02/08 09:37 PM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: Fist]
Nemesis Offline
senior member


Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2175
Loc: US
 Quote:
All the same, I still want to know if he believes in Santa Clause.


Well, he gave you a politician's answer in reply to your original Santa question, "I do, but only in certain cases". LOL!!!

Christians and politicians = Never a straight answer.
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#12160 - 10/02/08 09:39 PM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: DistroyA]
Nemesis Offline
senior member


Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2175
Loc: US
I'll give him one final opportunity to answer, and this thread will be locked. His fallacy will be left hanging at the end of this thread like a 72 point footnote.
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Nothing is sacred.

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#12161 - 10/02/08 09:59 PM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: Nemesis]
Fabiano Offline
member


Registered: 09/06/08
Posts: 374
 Quote:
Why is it that thus far you have started only one thread, and all of your replies have been confined to this one?

Nem, just for sake of thruth, Lux actually started 2 threads, the other one being there The Satanic Bible

But as they're similar, your remark stays valid.

Note that in this thread he started by saying "I'm here to understand and ask questions"

In the other one,
 Quote:
I am not preaching my faith to you, but defending my faith TSB certainly has a lot to say about what Christianity is, there are plenty of misconceptions


The issue lays here : rather than reading TSB and ask about it for better understanding, he beforehand says that there are misconception and wants "correcting" them and teaching us. Thus we end in threads talking more about christianinty than Satanism...


And, as you can imagine from my previous post I'm also finished with this thread (as DestroyA).





Edited by Fabiano (10/02/08 10:00 PM)

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#12170 - 10/03/08 05:51 AM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: Fabiano]
lux Offline
Banned
pledge


Registered: 09/26/08
Posts: 64
Loc: Newcastle UK
"I browsed a bit through your philosophy link and seriously; do you guys shut down your brain when reading that stuff? It's so contradicting it becomes embarrasing."

What is contradictive in what you post?

"Freedom is the power, rooted in reason and will, to act or not to act, to do this or that, and so to perform deliberate actions on one's own responsibility."

That is true

"*By free will one shapes one's own life. Human freedom is a force for growth and maturity in truth and goodness*
; it attains its perfection when directed toward God, our beatitude."

*This is true*, it is then followed by opinion based on the the teachings of Christ that he is God.

"As long as freedom has not bound itself definitively to its ultimate good which is God, there is the possibility of choosing between good and evil, and thus of growing in perfection or of failing and sinning. This freedom characterizes properly human acts. It is the basis of praise or blame, merit or reproach."

This is true because the ultimate Good to us is God, or to us God is the ultimate Good and obviously if we havent bound ourselves to the ultimate Good then we still decide between good and evil.

"The more one does what is good, the freer one becomes. There is no true freedom except in the service of what is good and just. the choice to disobey and do evil is an abuse of freedom and leads to "the slavery of sin."

This is what I have been saying in a round about way, we have freedom to Choose, the liberation that comes from God or the slavery that comes from seting ourselves up as God.

"Everything is an illusion. You are an illusion, this forum is an illusion the whole world is an illusion. The only thing wich isn't an illusion is me because I know I'll be there for myself the rest of my life. "

what a lonley desperate existance!

"You however, haven't answered one of the question I posed in my thread to you. Which means one of two things:

1) You didn't actually read it properly as you are a rude prick.

2) You don't like or have any answers to the questions, so you have decided to ignore them as you are a rude prick."

Or
3) I couldnt be bothered.
4) I didnt understand it
5) I am still considering it
6) I forgot about it
7) I didnt think it worth while answering
8) I found it unimportant

It could have been any of these and more.

"Name me one good reason that a person shouldn't be selfish if that is their natural disposition, without using God, the bible or the Church in the answer?"

For the Good of Humanity, for the good of others.

"WTF?

Ok, this is really simple. A yes or no will do. Do you believe in Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny?"

In the Traditional use... Yes
In the Modern use.... No

Its like asking me if I believe in "Christianity"
In the Traditional sense (Catholic) yes
In the Modern (Protestant Fundamentalism) No

"By the way, the real reason we have the Xmas shopping season and Easter is because early Xtians co-opted ancient pagan holidays celebrating the end of the winter solstice and the fertility of spring."

Yes I know, the winter solstice, is when the days start getting longer and the nights shorter, kind of like "light coming into the world" Jesus said "I am the light of the world" so we celebrate his birth at this time.
Fertility of Spring..i.e. new life, rebirth, ressurection in Christ...

Plus it appealed to and made the transition easier for the pagans.

"Why is it that thus far you have started only one thread, and all of your replies have been confined to this one?"

Well actually I dont want to fill up your boards with Christian perspectives, Really I would rather discuss LHP and RHP in only a couple of theads because its unfair on your community and your Admins dont really want that to happen.

"If you really wanted to understand Satanism, you would have posted in other areas of the forum, asking different questions"

I am asking questions, you perhaps dont see how me talking about my faith is asking questions of you. I am learning about Satanism, obviously since I am hearing your replys, I am comparing my faith to yours, almost holding up the two and learning about the differences. Infact i understand much more about my own faith as well as a result. By learning a bit about the opposite possition, I understand more clearly our position.

"On that point, you really didn't ask very in-depth questions, but instead have gone on at length about YOUR beliefs, YOUR rules and laws, YOUR ideals of society"

But these are questioning your possition, I learn from your replys.

"No, I think that you came here to prove a point in your own mind, to yourself, to reaffirm whatever it is you put your belief in, to reassure yourself that you are in the right and we are so very in the wrong,"

Not in the wrong, not wrong....erm... impractical.

But yes, I guess I have found more affirmation in my beliefs, I think it is important that i do discuss my faith with others, with everyone, every creed. I know a lot of people would have nothing to do with you, some out of fear, some out of disgust, some out of ignorance but I believe it is important that I discuss my beliefs and learn about other beliefs.
Last night I was discussing this thread with a fellow Christian ( he was very concerned about me talking to you) but I said some things about the Church and about how the philosophy was the Church and how the Philosophy was the Spirit of the Church and the Spirit of the Church is the Holy Spirit, who is one with Christ and thus the Church is Christ in the world. It is only when men act on that philosophy, act in the spirit of Christ, in the philosophy of the Church by Giving food to the starving, by healing the sick in Darfor etc, defending the weak, that men see Christ in other men, when they see that philosophy in action, they know Christ exists, in the Church, that his spirit lives on...it is only then that they become open to the spirit of christ and find faith. I have you lot to thank for bringing this revelation to my attention.

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#12171 - 10/03/08 06:31 AM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: lux]
MaggotFaceMoe Offline
member


Registered: 08/30/07
Posts: 164
Loc: Finland
""WTF?

Ok, this is really simple. A yes or no will do. Do you believe in Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny?"

In the Traditional use... Yes
In the Modern use.... No

Its like asking me if I believe in "Christianity"
In the Traditional sense (Catholic) yes
In the Modern (Protestant Fundamentalism) No"

Ah, actually it can not be the same as Santa is supposedly a person while Christianity is a movement and ideology. Ideologies exist in the head, persons in the real world. From what I see and read, to me it seems that in your head you have blended them together. Though it's quite evident from your disposition alone...

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#12172 - 10/03/08 06:48 AM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: lux]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
You can't have freedom of choice, connect those to will and own responsibility and then at the same time start wielding around labels like good and perfection. If choice A is perfect, choice B is not. If choice A represents god's choice, you surely are fucked when selecting B.
B = bad, bad = sin and sin implies you're pissing off god.

It's as if I gave a random person I meet on the street the option to choose going left or right. He is totally free to decide what direction to take, it's his own responsibility but if he chooses right, I am deeply disappointed by it and am going to pop a bullet through his head. But hey, he does have a free choice, doesn't he?

It's just silly gibberish. There is only one path to freedom and it is the path god paved for you. All the rest is a choice to become less free. So basically, not choosing total slavery to god results in becoming a slave? What were they smoking when writing this down?

I think this thread is going to get locked down anyways and maybe it is best. You don't really debate here and frankly I don't think you are up for it, intellectually that is. You know, all humans are animals but the main difference between satanists (I'm going to label them that for now, although I'd probably need to expand upon it and in/exclude) and you is that people like you are domesticated animals. Religion is used against you to domesticate you and just like that cow, you are perfectly happy at the farm and don't see your actual purpose beyond it.

D.

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#12173 - 10/03/08 07:02 AM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: Diavolo]
Fabiano Offline
member


Registered: 09/06/08
Posts: 374
 Quote:
But yes, I guess I have found more affirmation in my beliefs, I think it is important that i do discuss my faith with others, with everyone, every creed


The same for me. It enabled me to question myslf and pushed me to better define my position.

Adversity seems to bring out the best of us.

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#12174 - 10/03/08 07:06 AM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: Diavolo]
Nemesis Offline
senior member


Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2175
Loc: US
Alright, I think we've all had our say, as well as Lux. Thank you all for keeping it civil. As I mentioned earlier, I'd like for this thread to be used as a referral to any others like Lux who either have questions they need answered, or are simply here to peddle their faith. There was a lot of information given from both sides of the fence, which I think would satisfy any future visits by Christians.

If not, well then tough shit.
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