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#11897 - 09/27/08 06:42 AM Modern Satanism isnt it just....
lux Offline
Banned
pledge


Registered: 09/26/08
Posts: 64
Loc: Newcastle UK
I am not a satanist, I am a Christian of the most fowl order yep, I am a Catholic. I am not here to give you lot a hard time "oh your going to hell" and all that, you have probably heard it a million times anyway and anyone who is a satanist really wouldnt be expecting anything more... if he/she believed in a real hell that is....No I am here to read, listen and ask questions to gain a better understanding of our nemisis..i am so sure you guys know all about Christianity... where we "the flock" know very little about Satanism (sure our shepherds know) and its "better the devil you know" sorry for the pun.

Now it seems to me having read a little about "modern Satanism" is that it is not Satanism that is directly opposite Christianity. I Think it is closer to athiesm than the traditional idea of worshiping a fallen angel. It seems to me that someone has took the ideas of athiesm, materialism, and mixed it with serving the self rather than others and called it Satanism.

Ok athiesm is a disbelief in God(s) existance and the spiritworld. the devil did not disbelieve in God's existance or in the spiritworld he was/is an angel.

BTW just because i believe in a real God and a real devil,does not mean I imagine a red guy with horns a pitch fork etc... no I doubt that image very much... The Angel Lucifer was created as the highest order of angels.

Materialism or the persuit of worldly things as an ideal can not be in itself Satanism since satan is no a worldly cereature but a creature in the spirit world. A Christian does not store up treasure on earth because earth is not our home, our home is with god, but equally a satanists home would be with satan

Finally Self Servitude... if your serving yourself your not serving satan because a human being is not inherently evil and has inclinations to do good...i.e what is pleasing to God, I am sure you all do things everyday that is pleasing to God, Just as we do things everyday that are sinful. However at least Christ is a forgiving God.

So Isnt Modern Satanism just a bunch of diobolical ideals grouped together and labled "Satanism" more out of a f**k you to the Christians than actual demonic worship.

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#11898 - 09/27/08 07:28 AM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: lux]
ZephyrGirl Offline
R.I.P.
active member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 706
Loc: Adelaide Australia
 Quote:
No I am here to read, listen and ask questions to gain a better understanding of our nemisis..


Well so far you've typed, talked and done the opposite to what you said. Surprise, your a Catholic. tee he he

So, can I ask....who or what is your nemesis? Satan? Satanists or your lack of understanding of your own nature. The nautre of humanity?

 Quote:
BTW just because i believe in a real God and a real devil,does not mean I imagine a red guy with horns a pitch fork etc... no I doubt that image very much... The Angel Lucifer was created as the highest order of angels.


Yes, I like to think that Santa Claus is a really hot looking 29 year old man about 6'4" with rippling abs and red thong.

 Quote:
A Christian does not store up treasure on earth because earth is not our home, our home is with god,


Well that's just bullshit. Christians don't store up treasure Pah! And you're Catholic you say, ever heard of the Vatican City? Have their own money there don't they? Riches anyone? Don't store treasure, bah, puleeeeese, next thing you'll be saying you are honest with yourself and don't look at porn.

I don't know if you were trying to win any points by being all, I'm not going to lecture you in your own website and all, but really you are just having the most basic of manners.

Why don't you download and read the free copy of the Satanic Bible and educate yourself about what modern Satanism is, or are you too afraid that you are actually attracted to it (as it makes alot more sense than Christianity) and that you might become one of the enemy (well your perceived enemy) yourself?

I promise I'll answer 10 questions from you, if you read TSB. And if you read some Nietscke I'll show you my Double D's. ;\)

ZephyrGirl
_________________________
Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass -
It's about learning to dance in the rain.


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#11900 - 09/27/08 08:11 AM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: lux]
Nemesis Offline
senior member


Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2175
Loc: US
 Quote:
No I am here to read, listen and ask questions to gain a better understanding of our nemisis

Who's nemesis are we talking about? Ours or yours?

 Quote:
Materialism or the persuit of worldly things as an ideal can not be in itself satanism since satan is no a worldly cereature but a creature in the spirit world.

Satan represents all of man's base desires: Greed, gluttony, lust, power.

 Quote:
A Christian does not store up treasure on earth because earth is not our home, our home is with god

No, a good Christian is not SUPPOSED to store treasure, and yet they do anyway. And of course the earth is not your home...you were only born and raised on it. It fed you, provided you with great joy, educated you...fuck earth, right? No wonder this planet's in such a mess, with so many people who have this kind of mentality. "Let's wipe our asses with the Earth, the only one we've got, cuz we've got big puffy clouds in the sky to fly around in when we die!"

 Quote:
....a satanists home would be with satan

This is where you start confusing modern Satanists with the blasphemous worshippers of Christianity, the stereotypical "Satanist" that sacrfices animals and small children. When we die, we simply cease to exist. Some might believe that some sort of energy is released when we pass on, but humans have no tangible soul that "transcends" into another plane of existence.

 Quote:
if your serving yourself your not serving satan because a human being is not inherently evil and has inclinations to do good...i.e what is pleasing to God, I am sure you all do things everyday that is pleasing to God, Just as we do things everyday that are sinful.


Define "evil"...is it selfishness? Success at the cost of others? Lack of concern for humanity? Obviously murder can be a bad thing, unless it is in self-defense or someone attacked your family, as well as being accidental as killing someone in an auto accident. Rape goes against the natural order of things, especially among higher primates and intelligent mammals such as cats, dogs, whales and dolphins, etc, yet the Bible gives no mention of it in the "Top 10 Sins" category. Stealing can either be done out of necessity or greed, so that's a gray area that can't be lumped into the "evil" category.

See, that's the inherent problem with religions of all kinds. This polarization of human emotions and instincts. It calls for denial of part of your self, then tries to make up for it by inserting worship and self-sacrifice as substitutes. It doesn't work. It's like changing out a blown tire on your car with a trashcan lid. It's flimsy and won't hold up. It's not what your car is supposed to run on, and once you try to drive with it, it'll do such damage to the vehicle that it'll need thousands of dollars in repairs to make it run right again.

 Quote:
However at least Christ is a forgiving God.

Christ is not a God, he is supposed to be the SON of God...and I doubt that God really appreciates so many of his flock paying homage to Christ than to him. He is a jealous God, is he not? A murderer? A plague-bearer? A masochist? A submissive's ultimate master?

 Quote:
So Isnt Modern satanism just a bunch of diobolical ideals grouped together and labled "satanism" more out of a f**k you to the Christians than actual demonic worship.

Some define it as such, but true Satanists tend to mature and grow out of that anti-religious zeal that so prompted them to seek other paths in the first place. It gets boring. It's unnecessary. It's unproductive.

_________________________
Nothing is sacred.

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#11903 - 09/27/08 08:43 AM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: lux]
Fist Moderator Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/31/07
Posts: 1453
Loc: B'mo Cautious MF
Well first, welcome. If you are here to learn about Satanism then you are in the right place.

"lux" eh? The Latin root for light or shining, as in Lucifer - The Morning Star. Well, at least you are off to a good start.

The first thing you need to wrap your mind around is the difference between Modern Satanism as codified by Anton LaVey, and 'traditional' or theistic Satanism as in the worship of a supernatural fallen angel. You really need to do your own research at this point and come back here with questions for clarification. Read The Satanic Bible. It is a free pdf here in our Media Room. You should then understand the historical relationship between The Church, the Knights Templar, Friday the 13th, Baphomet and Freemasonry. In short, theistic Satanism is a construct of The Church to stir up the unwashed masses.

I have posted some other resources here that may aid you in your understanding of the 'enemy':

http://www.the600club.com/dir/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/6069#Post6069

In truth, you are often your own worst enemy. The most terrifying thing that a neophyte can learn is just how much of their own life they control and almost everything - good or bad - in their own lives is largely of their own creation. Heaven and Hell is right here on earth. If you truly get out and live life you will find traditional religion to be little more than silly fairy tales. The core of Satanism is vital existence.
_________________________
I am the Devil and I am here to do the Devil's work.

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#11907 - 09/27/08 11:34 AM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: Fist]
lux Offline
Banned
pledge


Registered: 09/26/08
Posts: 64
Loc: Newcastle UK
First off thanks for the welcome and the replys, please forgive any spelling mistakes, I am not the best.... catholic education and all!!! but it was down to my lack of interest in school that left me uneducated rather than the Catholic education system.

"Well so far you've typed, talked and done the opposite to what you said. Surprise, your a Catholic. tee he he"

Yeah well I think you can understand that my posts, will inevitably be coming from a ever so slightly biased point of view, perhaps even prejudiced point of view.. do you think you could be accepting of this and give me a bit leeway?


"So, can I ask....who or what is your nemesis? Satan? Satanists or your lack of understanding of your own nature. The nautre of humanity?"

Well from a Catholic stand point, both satan and Satanism, satanists of course are enemies of God, but human beings are gods creatures.

"Yes, I like to think that Santa Claus is a really hot looking 29 year old man about 6'4" with rippling abs and red thong."

now that is extreemly funny.... interesting you should use the term santa, an anagram of satan. Yes Santa Cluas may be loosly based on St Nicholas, but "santa Claus" embodies the whole materialistic side of Christmas and "santa cluas is coming" to give you "material things" is used to over shadow the birth of Christ...ah but i am begining to rammbling on.

"Well that's just bullshit. Christians don't store up treasure Pah! And you're Catholic you say, ever heard of the Vatican City? Have their own money there don't they? Riches anyone? Don't store treasure, bah, puleeeeese, next thing you'll be saying you are honest with yourself and don't look at porn."

Ok perhaps I should have rephrased that to say Christianity teaches us that we sould not build up treasure on earth, by the way money and material wealth are not sinful, if used in the right way, it is when money and material wealth are used to lord power over people and exploite those who have less, it also becomes sinful when material wealth becomes an obsention… a desire for more is your driving force often at the expense of others.

“Why don't you download and read the free copy of the Satanic Bible and educate yourself about what modern Satanism is....”

I am considering it, I am pretty sure i will, if not for education purposes then out of entrigue.

As for showing me your double D’s – why do I have to read the TSB? Wouldn’t a real Satanist just show me them any way to create lust in Christians mind?

Go on, show me them….. pweeeese.

“Who's nemesis are we talking about? Ours or yours?”

Ours…i.e Christians

“Satan represents all of man's base desires: Greed, gluttony, lust, power.”

“Represents” so there is no Diablo persay?

“...fuck earth, right? No wonder this planet's in such a mess”

Oh come on, you know that isn’t the case, the Vatican state is the only country in the world who’s carbon emmisions are offset. We believe we are guardians of the Earth and guardians of its creatures.

“This is where you start confusing modern Satanists with the blasphemous worshippers of Christianity, the stereotypical "Satanist" that sacrfices animals and small children. When we die, we simply cease to exist. Some might believe that some sort of energy is released when we pass on, but humans have no tangible soul that "transcends" into another plane of existence.”

You see that’s just Atheism.

“Define "evil"

Evil is the wilful rejection of The Divine will of the most holy Trinity in the full belief of their existence.

“Christ is not a God, he is supposed to be the SON of God...and I doubt that God really appreciates so many of his flock paying homage to Christ than to him. He is a jealous God, is he not? A murderer? A plague-bearer? A masochist? A submissive's ultimate master?”

Paying homage to Christ, “I and the father are one” “The Son Glorifies the father and the father glorifies the son”
God is triune in nature, that is Father Son and Holy Spirit, all three are “God”
Three persons one God, God is Love, Three persons one love. Yes God is a Jealous God but one can be both Jealous and forgiving.

A murderer?

What you mean his creatures die, that’s like saying a man who knocks down a statue that he built is a murderer!

“"lux" eh? The Latin root for light or shining, as in Lucifer - The Morning Star. Well, at least you are off to a good start”


First off, yeah you got me, “Lux” light as in “dues lux nostra” the good start not so good.

EEK!!!

I think either you or I have our wires crossed, I always believed the “Morning star” refered to Jesus.

Rev 22:16
"I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."

2 Peter 1:19

we have the word of the prophets made more certain, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts.

“The first thing you need to wrap your mind around is the difference between Modern Satanism as codified by Anton LaVey, and 'traditional' or theistic Satanism as in the worship of a supernatural fallen angel. You really need to do your own research at this point and come back here with questions for clarification. Read The Satanic Bible. It is a free pdf here in our Media Room. You should then understand the historical relationship between The Church, the Knights Templar, Friday the 13th, Baphomet and Freemasonry. In short, theistic Satanism is a construct of The Church to stir up the unwashed masses”

Well like I said I think “modern” Satanism isn’t really Satanism, its more akin to openly honest Atheism, which is diabolical but not Satanism. I think I will read that TSB it sounds interesting. I would say “modern Satanism” would be better called “diabolicalism” since satan woship is not part of the “religion” or at least it is not openly visible.

I think you refer to the “church” as in the Catholic Church but you could be referring to a satanic church so I am not sure what you mean by construct of the Church. But I do know that “Traditional” Satanism exists and that Catholic priests have been defrocked for participating in “The Black Mass”

I have also breifly met traditional Satanists.

And as for heaven and hell being right here on earth, I absolutely agree with that statement although I probably mean it in a entirely different way.

“traditional religion to be little more than silly fairy tales”

Again just athiesm


Edited by lux (09/27/08 11:36 AM)

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#11911 - 09/27/08 04:50 PM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: lux]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1646
Loc: Orlando, FL
*Ahem*

Greetings, sir.

I think you're getting the term "Atheism" a bit messed up. You said that Satanism is "just" Atheism, implying that we would be better of just calling ourselves atheists instead of putting a label like "Satanism" on ourselves.

However, you should know that "Atheism" simply means that one does not believe in God. That's it. It is not a religion. It is merely a stance taken towards the idea of a so-called "higher power". (Many Buddhists, for example, are atheists)

Unlike most other nonbelievers, we still see the value in religion and ritual, and have codified our religion into Satanism, which is (according to many, this is my own view) a philosophical religion.

Thus we do not feel that we need a supernatural pretense to justify our ideas. Satanism is a real-world ideology of the here-and-now, and this is where we draw our basis from, instead of an unobservable "world beyond". This ideology is hard to define, but the Satanic Bible is a good place to start.

(You really can't say Satanism and Atheism are one in the same, because not all atheists are Satanists. Many of them, for example, are just as altruistic and idealistic as Christians, believing in things like universal human equality.)

As far as the Judeo-Christian god "Yahweh" goes, we could go on for hours citing all the parts of the Bible where this character openly endorses all kinds of horrendous atrocities. It's really not a rut I wanna fall into, though...

Regarding the character of "Satan", keep in mind we do not view him as a "fallen angel" or similar Christian perspective. There is no dualism in Satanism. Satan is our nature, not a foreign entity that tries to influence us, as Christians see it. We see ourselves as acting in accordance with truth, not rebelling against it.

And for materialism, the Satanic idea is "indulgence, not compulsion", as LaVey put it. Technically, your stance is the same as ours on this one- that we should be able to live as comfortably as we can without causing harm to ourselves or others.

Nonetheless, at the core, traditional religions have undeniably vilified the material world. For them, money is a "necessary evil" because they teach that the world itself is under the sway of the devil (or Demiurge, if Gnosticism's your thing), and that salvation comes from an otherworldly ideal that transcends the material.

It seems to me that someone has took the ideas of athiesm, materialism, and mixed it with serving the self rather than others and called it satanism.

Many people have had expressed this view- an oversimplification, but you still nailed the basic premises of Satanism. The only thing you missed is the deification of these ideas, which is what makes it distinct as a Religion.



Edited by The Zebu (09/27/08 05:00 PM)
_________________________
«Recibe, ¡oh Lucifer! la sangre de esta víctima que sacrifico en tu honor.»

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#11912 - 09/27/08 05:25 PM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: lux]
Nykky Offline
stranger


Registered: 09/27/08
Posts: 22
Loc: Northern CA
 Originally Posted By: lux

“Define "evil"

Evil is the wilful rejection of The Divine will of the most holy Trinity in the full belief of their existence.



So evil is not a pedophile or murderer as long as they accept "the divine will of the most holy trinity"?

What about a Satanist who has tried to live their life as honest as possible (Yes I said "as possible", nobody is perfect). How about one who donates their time at their child's school and donates money to what they feel are worthy causes? How about someone who Volunteers to help hand out blankets and jackets to the homeless every winter or helps down at the local shelter to serve food? I am no perfect person but I do believe in helping if I can. Yet I choose not to accept "the divine will of the most holy trinity". So this makes me evil in your eyes? I know you don't know me personally so you cannot possibly know the "sins" I have committed. That aside I have never harmed another human or animal in a malicious way, nor do I steal. I have also not coveted thy neighbors wife or husband. But I have committed several other "sinful" acts. But yet I am deemed evil in the eyes of Christianity.

I can say the same about many of the believers in your religion. Molestation, Murder, Adultery, Stealing... But not in the Christian Churches eyes am I right? As long as they come back and "believe", realize what they have done is wrong (until they decided they cannot help themselves and do it again). But then it just starts over. If I am wrong please tell me.

 Originally Posted By: lux


"Well from a Catholic stand point, both Satan and Satanism, satanists of course are enemies of God, but human beings are gods creatures."



So Satanists are not human beings? Did you mean exactly as this is worded or did you word it wrong? You can't possibly believe that a Satanist is not a human being, can you? So people who belong to other religions different from yours who do not believe in your God are not human beings as well?

I'm not trying to be condescending I'm just trying to understand what you mean. I have not read anywhere in the bibles that I have read where it talks about people not believing in Jesus not being human. I could have misunderstood that part if it is there. Do you have a passage that says something along those lines?

I am new to Satanism and I am choosing to take this path, this is still all new to me, some of what you stated about what you believe are some of the reasons I am choosing to go down this road.

About reading the Satanic Bible, why do you need to think about it so much? I don't understand, is it because you are afraid of the consequences you feel you will face in front of your God?

To others not choosing this way of thinking it would be a book and nothing else right?

Also, it is not becoming of a Catholic to beg to see someones DD's. This would also be considered a sin, Lust, am I not right? If I am wrong please tell me. So your consequences for reading the Satanic Bible should not apply to you I suppose. That is assuming it is sinful in your belief system to read it. I don't see anything in the 10 Commandments saying you cannot read it unless you want to break down number 2 and 3.

The hypocrisy. You doing something that would be considered a sin in your religion is OK as long as after the sin you go back to worshiping your God and living on the right path until you feel you are forgiven. So it would be OK to Lust after ZephyrGirl and her DD's because you will be forgiven?

This goes right back up to your definition of evil.

Ah heck, I said I was going to to lurk for awhile.

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#11913 - 09/27/08 06:56 PM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: lux]
ZephyrGirl Offline
R.I.P.
active member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 706
Loc: Adelaide Australia
 Quote:
As for showing me your double D’s – why do I have to read the TSB? Wouldn’t a real Satanist just show me them any way to create lust in Christians mind?

Go on, show me them….. pweeeese.



Maybe we're better at mind games than that. A real satanic witch can create lust out of suggestion - see? I don't actually have to show you my tit's to do so after all this is a written forum.....the idea is as strong as the picture.

I bet you imagined a fine set of boobs. ;\)

As for the rest of the God bothering you write, I'm not sure what it is you actually want from the people here.

Yes modern Satanism is for the most part Aetheism, some humanism and alot of reality isms.

However, Satan is a symbol of adversary, knowledge and non conformitism and taking responsibility for ones personal power.

Most here aren't into labels of any type and you are not the first to try and pin them on us. Aetheism doesn't cover a beleif in the occult on it's own either.

There are plenty here who still beleive in magick and ritual, but not in God or Satan.

We'll see how long you last before you work out that you can be a generous loving Satanist, it's not just about being a negetive person, but about truly accepting yourself, both conscious and sub-conscious, dark and light, good and bad, to become more than you were.

Zeph
_________________________
Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass -
It's about learning to dance in the rain.


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#11914 - 09/27/08 06:58 PM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: lux]
Octavius Offline
member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 557
Loc: Left the party
I have a short video you should watch that may shed some light on your curiosities and answer some questions. Comport yourself with respect and you'll find most of us approachable and willing to entertain your questions.

http://www.the600club.com/dir/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/8445#Post8445

Octavius
_________________________
So long, and thanks for all the fish.

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#11923 - 09/27/08 09:43 PM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: Octavius]
Fabiano Offline
member


Registered: 09/06/08
Posts: 374
Well,

I think my fellow satanists already answered most of your questions.

I particularly appreciated Nemesis & The Zebu posts.

I think every religion (including modern Satanism) "push people to better themselves". Being religious will "force" you to define your own values, think about yourself, your live, your behaviour,...

Atheists are not "encouraged" like that, what does not prevent them to have the same kind of reflection, alike philosophers.
What makes atheists different from "religious" is that they don't share common values, neither any ritual or code of conduct.

If religions "push us to better ourselves" the different religion does not exactly define the better (so the good) in the same way.

You could view Satanism a a bunch of diabolic ideas labelled as Satanism. But I don't think the label was choosen at random.

Satanism is a well choosen label as I think it goes in rebellion against some unsustainable Christian positions.

"Love your ennemies as your friends". Land on guy! It's not like that that it works in this world. I love my friends and I'm hard with my ennemies !

"Sex is bad execpt if covered by the sacred love of a sacred union". Come on guy, sex is like chocolate : it's GOOD ! If you can't realise that, your feet are not well on earth. Come back to reality !

Suppose you got marry with someone. You love her, she loves you, you have very good relationships and even complicity, but once at bed, it's the nightmare. You're not on the same wavelength, you take (both) no pleasure \:\(
What will you do? Sacrify your sexual life (and your beloved one too) on God's altar?
Clearly, I would not do that !

Fabiano

P.S. I like having a God's advocate amongst us (or should I say Devil's advocate ? \:D )


Edited by Fabiano (09/27/08 09:53 PM)

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#11925 - 09/27/08 10:35 PM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: lux]
Fabiano Offline
member


Registered: 09/06/08
Posts: 374
 Quote:
“Define "evil"

Evil is the wilful rejection of The Divine will of the most holy Trinity in the full belief of their existence.



I think Nemesis hit a key point : definition of evil. With the definition you propose, most of people will just not understand (look at Nikky's reaction). This is a theological definition.
I think we're here more interrested in a more "concrete" one. Philisophical/ethical.
When you said smthg like "humans can't be so evil, there is some GOOD in every man" you were closer to this ethical idea of "evil". No you hide behind something being a non-sense for atheists.

So what is evil? The question remains unanswered...

I try ? (I like challenges \:D )

1st try : Evil is "not good". Just the opposite of "good"...
What's good ? Good is what you concretly do (make, say, thing, feel, ...) when you love.
What's love? And here I already gave my def. in an other post :

 Quote:
Here is a definition of Love given by Scott Peck and which is to me the best one I ever seen. It reflects my own point of view by defining Love as "The will to extend one's self for the purpose of nurturing one's own or another's spiritual growth."
"The less travelled path" S. Peck

It's like a mother who does not always do what her kid wants but do what she sincerely thinks will make her kid to "be better", to grow.

So on this basis, the "evil" would be the result of hate and would be the The will to extend one's self for the purpose of hampering one's own or another's spiritual growth.

This is to y point of view "GREATER EVIL". Where you choose deliberately to harm someone else, whatever the mean.

"Lesser Evil" would be for harming without intention (often by stupidity).

Satanist can be evil, but christians too. Torquemada is a good example !

The difference is the the Satanists admit they are "evil" with their ennemies. (de facto, as most of people, religious or not).

Fabiano

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#11927 - 09/28/08 02:46 AM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: Fabiano]
Butterz Offline
pledge


Registered: 09/26/08
Posts: 77
Loc: Georgia
As A new member i never expected to see this. catholics and satanists discussing religion? I'd like to share my idea of "evil". Evil is when one masterminds a plan and knowingly allows others to suffer to reach ones own goal. I find the arguement here quite funny. i "claimed" to be christian for many years until a friend explained Satanism to me. really nothing changed in my life, other than being called a devil worshiper, but after reading TSB and reading the Holy Bible, I can say the diference is minimal. main differences,

1. Christians believe Jesus was the son of God or is God. I just think he was a good philosipher and great at manipulating people.

2. Christians wait for God to help them or give them guidance, in Satanism you gotta look out for yourself.

3. Satanist dont waste time/energy/money on going somewhere on sunday to have a man tell them they will burn in hell if the offering plate doesnt fill up.

To me thats the best scam especially in southern baptist. $20 a week will wash away your sins and save your soul. lmao

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#11930 - 09/28/08 03:28 AM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: Fabiano]
Nykky Offline
stranger


Registered: 09/27/08
Posts: 22
Loc: Northern CA
 Originally Posted By: Fabiano
 Quote:
“Define "evil"

Evil is the wilful rejection of The Divine will of the most holy Trinity in the full belief of their existence.



I think Nemesis hit a key point : definition of evil. With the definition you propose, most of people will just not understand (look at Nikky's reaction).



True, I do not understand his definition of evil. OK wait, maybe I just think of the word evil in a different way as we all probably have our own definitions of what we think evil is.

My definition of an evil person would be someone who consciously commits acts to harm another person or animal. Someone who enjoys hurting others, whether it be molesting, stealing, destroying property...To me this would be an evil person.

If your definition of an evil person is similar to mine besides the fact that they shun God I have a question. If this same evil person were to find God, confess his sins, read the bible, attend church, would they still be evil to you? How about if someone raped and killed 15 children but they believe in God? Would you consider this a good person just for that reason.

The definition you give implies they would not be for the fact that they are now accepting the holy trinity in their life. I guess this would fall under the you'll be forgiven for all your sins if you let God into your life and accept him as your savior.

Ahhh I can go on and on, but I just don't get his statement If you look up evil there is so many definitions. Which one is right? I don't believe any of them are fact I think everyone has their own definition of evil but for you to make such a broad statement about what an evil person is, is just ignorant. It just includes too many people who truly you would not consider evil based solely upon the fact they do not share the same religious beliefs as you. I'm sure you can even think of a few in your life right now.

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#11934 - 09/28/08 07:26 AM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: Nykky]
lux Offline
Banned
pledge


Registered: 09/26/08
Posts: 64
Loc: Newcastle UK
Wow, there is a lot to respond to!

Greetings, sir.

“I think you're getting the term "Atheism" a bit messed up. You said that Satanism is "just" Atheism, implying that we would be better of just calling ourselves atheists instead of putting a label like "Satanism" on ourselves.”

Well if honestly followed to its logical conclusion I think Atheism could only lead to what you refer to as “Satanism” the service of the self. In that sense I could say that Atheists are only Satanists who have not realised it yet. And “Modern Satanism” the true embodiment of Atheism



“Regarding the character of "Satan", keep in mind we do not view him as a "fallen angel" or similar Christian perspective. There is no dualism in Satanism. Satan is our nature, not a foreign entity that tries to influence us, as Christians see it. We see ourselves as acting in accordance with truth, not rebelling against it.”

After listening to Octavia via his video, I realise that the term “Satanism” is not important, but to the others it may put them off, I suppose it may also attract them but either way the label is deceptive, I suppose really your “humanists” in a way or perhaps really humanists are just satanists. However in another sense Satanism is a correct term because it was satan himself who set up this “religion” or “philosophy all those years ago when he told Adam and Eve to reject God and become their own masters, to define for themselves what is good and what is evil, “here eat the fruit that God said was evil to eat it is to throw off the shackles of God and you can become god’s yourselves…defining for yourself what is good and what is evil, thus becoming masters of your own destiny…. In that sense, you are following the philosophy of satan…so I suppose Satanist could be a correct term….

Hmmm perhaps there is more to this than meets the eye, I am learning or at least you have me thinking!!


“And for materialism, the Satanic idea is "indulgence, not compulsion", as LaVey put it. Technically, your stance is the same as ours on this one- that we should be able to live as comfortably as we can without causing harm to ourselves or others.”

We go a bit further our stance is that we should live only according to our needs, this way we can give more to help others, Christianity teaches that really being content with just not harming others is not enough, that really we should be trying to help those less fortunate

“Nonetheless, at the core, traditional religions have undeniably vilified the material world. For them, money is a "necessary evil" because they teach that the world itself is under the sway of the devil (or Demiurge, if Gnosticism's your thing), and that salvation comes from an otherworldly ideal that transcends the material.”

“I don’t think religion (at least not Catholicism) sees money as evil, how can money itself be evil, money can be used for good just as much as it can be used for bad.”

Many people have had expressed this view- an oversimplification, but you still nailed the basic premises of Satanism. The only thing you missed is the deification of these ideas, which is what makes it distinct as a Religion.

You set the ideas themselves up as God’s or Yourself’s as Gods… or perhaps both?


“So evil is not a pedophile or murderer as long as they accept "the divine will of the most holy trinity"?”

Well these people who do this are the most hated in society, who is evil if not these people right.

Well actually a pedophile or a murder are not evil, since there actions are against the devine will of the most holy trinity the actions are sinful but they themselves are not their actions, these are sins. A sin is an action against the divine will, these sins are evil actions but not evil itself, for evil itself is total rejection to the point of opposition of the divine will in full knowledge of God’s existence…. So if a person rejects the divine will of God while believing in his existance and lives in total opposition to God’s will then he is evil. But I know of no person who does not live at least in moments according to the divine will, therefore no person is truly evil.

“What about a Satanist who has tried to live their life as honest as possible (Yes I said "as possible", nobody is perfect). How about one who donates their time at their child's school and donates money to what they feel are worthy causes? How about someone who Volunteers to help hand out blankets and jackets to the homeless every winter or helps down at the local shelter to serve food? I am no perfect person but I do believe in helping if I can. Yet I choose not to accept "the divine will of the most holy trinity". So this makes me evil in your eyes? I know you don't know me personally so you cannot possibly know the "sins" I have committed. That aside I have never harmed another human or animal in a malicious way, nor do I steal. I have also not coveted thy neighbors wife or husband. But I have committed several other "sinful" acts. But yet I am deemed evil in the eyes of Christianity.”

No human being is deemed evil by Christianity, there is no sin that can not be forgiven and only one that will not be forgiven. That is the total rejection to the point of total oppositon of the divine will of the most holy trinity, as Jesus puts it… Anyone who sins against the spirit will not be forgiven in this world or the next, but no man that I know of has accomplished living to such a “low” standard. Really I think the only one’s who will not be forgiven if they ask is Satan himself and the angels who followed him in rebellion.

“So Satanists are not human beings?”

Of course they are human beings, one could say Satanists set themselves up as enemies of God, but are still human beings and he still loves them. So even Satanists themselves are not really our enemy, we have no enemys apart from the Devil and his demonic cohorts, obviously we can be their enemy and try to destroy that which we try to build.

“About reading the Satanic Bible, why do you need to think about it so much? I don't understand, is it because you are afraid of the consequences you feel you will face in front of your God?“

I have to discern if I am strong enough to read it, to be challenged by it, can I cope with the challenges it throws at me, I also have to consider that LeVay was learnerd in the art of hypnosis, does he use what he has learned in the TSB in order to get the reader to be more accepting of its philosophy… I have to seriously consider that a possibility and really so should anyone who has read it or is thinking of reading it.

“Also, it is not becoming of a Catholic to beg to see someones DD's”

I was not serious, one can have a laugh and a joke.

“That is assuming it is sinful in your belief system to read it.”

Well it is not a sin, but the catechism tells you to be very warry of reading what I will term “bad books” obviously those with a weak understanding of the faith can be easily challenged.

“You doing something that would be considered a sin in your religion is OK as long as after the sin you go back to worshiping your God and living on the right path until you feel you are forgiven”

It is not ok to sin, it is even less ok to wilfully sin and it is sinful to take the mercy of Christ for granted. However sins can be forgiven. It is a sin not to forgive yourself when God has forgiven you and also a sin to doubt his forgivness after recieveing absolution. We do not worship God so we get forgiven by him, we worship God and sing his praise because we are forgiven by him.

“I bet you imagined a fine set of boobs”

Not really, I was too busy trying to think of a jokey reply, but I was not taking the water out of you, but myself and other Christians inability to resist temptation perfectly. I do like to laugh at myself, I would much rather take the water out of myself as someone else since taking the urine can be hurtful to some people, only sometimes it has a negative effect, by my own doing often it makes others feel it is ok to take the mick out of me, when sometimes it is not, sometimes its hurtful so I know if I take the mick out of someone else I risk hurting them, I would rather risk being hurt myself by others than risk hurting them.

“I have a short video you should watch that may shed some light on your curiosities and answer some questions. Comport yourself with respect and you'll find most of us approachable and willing to entertain your questions.”

Thanks octavias I did learn something, as I already mentined your video.

“"Love your ennemies as your friends". Land on guy! It's not like that that it works in this world. I love my friends and I'm hard with my ennemies !”

Yes that is the way of the world but it can be changed, do not listen to LaVey.. hope is a good thing, forgivness is a good thing, if you love and forgive your enemies they wont be your enemies for very long. We can change the world and the first step is always changing ourselves.

“Sex is bad execpt if covered by the sacred love of a sacred union". Come on guy, sex is like chocolate : it's GOOD ! If you can't realise that, your feet are not well on earth. Come back to reality”

Sex isn’t bad in the sense your talking about, it is very enjoyable… something that you enjoy cant be bad can it?

But sex is bad in the sense that it is a sin…I.e an action against the divine will when done so outside of marriage. But to those who have no belief in the existence of God when we say sex is bad outside of marriage it can sound like nonsense.. unless of course he sees the practical side to the marriage bond, i.e to provide a stable and secure home for a resulting child, the potential to significantly reduce sexually transmitted infections etc.

“Suppose you got marry with someone. You love her, she loves you, you have very good relationships and even complicity, but once at bed, it's the nightmare. You're not on the same wavelength, you take (both) no pleasure
What will you do? Sacrify your sexual life (and your beloved one too) on God's altar?
Clearly, I would not do that !”

Well I would probably try to get help a sex therapist but if that did not work, then if I am married then I married them because that is the person I love and they married me because I am the person they love, how could I possibly be with another woman… I can not see how sex between two people who love each other so much they wish to dedicate their life to each other could be anything but magnificent, even if there were some medical condition where no physical stimulation could be felt, then the emotional stimulation of being open to having a child together would be magnificent, I could not leave the woman I love even if she could not have sex, it would be very frustraiting wanting to express this love through sex and not being able to, but I could not walk away from the woman I love. And if she loved me, I would expect that she could not walk away from me.

“P.S. I like having a God's advocate amongst us”

Thank you.

I hope I am being a good ambassador of Catholicism, those who lambast , ridicule, condemn, chastise those are the ones who have only a very little understanding of the Christian faith and fear you, I do not profess to have a great lot of understanding myself but enough not to fear the challenges your philiosophy will bring me.


“definition of evil. With the definition you propose, most of people will just not understand (look at Nikky's reaction). This is a theological definition.
I think we're here more interrested in a more "concrete" one. Philisophical/ethical.
When you said smthg like "humans can't be so evil, there is some GOOD in every man" you were closer to this ethical idea of "evil". No you hide behind something being a non-sense for atheists.”

Without God there is no Good or Bad, only what we ourselves as each individual defines for themselves what is Good or Evil. Someone on here suggested murderers evil and pedophiles, he is not a believer in God and has defined that for himself, the pedophile and murderer may define these actions as Good, without a God they would be no more or no less right or wrong than the person who defined it evil. However most people who do not believe in God would still set those standards up for themselves..why?... Well I believe that there is a moral law written on our hearts by God. However to the non believer of God, that is nonsense… this general consensus would probably put down to social conditioning if that is believed any society based on such an ideology can be manipulated to believe differently, look at homosexuality for instance years ago it was illegal and considered disordered. Most people are straight and if they are honest find homosexuality repulsive… that is what I believe to be the moral law that is written inside of human beings, even the homosexual will have the feeling of it being “wrong” and s/he will probably get some gratification out of that, perhaps it is even why they are gay in the first place. Yet it has been made acceptable in society because we are lead to believe that there is no moral law, that right and wrong is what is defined by human beings, therefore we can change what we perceive as right and wrong….but it dosnt wash deep down both the straight guy and the gay guy have that feeling of it being wrong only one is repulsed by it and the other attracted by its perverseness.
But of course if I am wrong, if there is no moral law and no God then homosexuality isn’t wrong, nothing is wrong only what we decide as individuals.

One could say right and wrong could be decided by society, true but then your putting the social order as a God, so instead of being “slaves” to god, the general populance becomes slaves to fellow “human beings” who may consider exploitation good. But if we set ourselves up as God and proclaim It is not government who decide good and evil, it is each individual then we would be thrust into the anarchy, the law of the jungle would be back, survival of the fittest, kill or be killed.

Once we set ourselves up as God’s we are in for a terrible fall.

“As A new member i never expected to see this. catholics and satanists discussing religion?”

In a civilized way too!

“Christians wait for God to help them or give them guidance, in Satanism you gotta look out for yourself.”

What we believe ultimately we will create, can you imagine a world like that everyone looking of for themselves, the law of the jungle, that is what LaVey means when he talks of a new satanic age, that is what is being created as speak… it’s a shit world mankind is trying to make today. Christians offer a chance to make a much better world.

I must at this point tell you about mother Teresa, she is a good Catholic, no? on her way to sainthood, yet she doubted her belief in God, was almost convinced she didn’t believe in God but she still had faith in God.

“Satanist dont waste time/energy/money on going somewhere on sunday to have a man tell them they will burn in hell if the offering plate doesnt fill up”

The Catholic Church isn’t like that we are more centred on God than on Fire and Brimstone, the collection plate is passed around and each gives according to their own level.


“To me thats the best scam especially in southern baptist. $20 a week will wash away your sins and save your soul. Lmao”

Yeah, there a lot of scams, a lot of pastors are just after lining their pockets.

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#11970 - 09/28/08 10:29 PM Re: Modern Satanism isnt it just.... [Re: lux]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1646
Loc: Orlando, FL
But if we set ourselves up as God and proclaim It is not government who decide good and evil, it is each individual then we would be thrust into the anarchy, the law of the jungle would be back, survival of the fittest, kill or be killed.

..And this is exactly the paradigm from which Satanism is drawn. Man is essentially an animal, and the same laws that govern "animal nature" are the ones that rule over human behavior. We ALREADY live in a kill-or-be-killed world. The law of the jungle can't come back because it never left us in the first place.

This is the world we live in, so we act accordingly.

But again, I find it amusing that you put "law of the jungle" and "anarchy" into the same statement- since anarchy implies that there are no laws.

What always annoys me about traditional religious philosophy is that its proponents always insist that man, at his core, is a savage, backstabbing monster, and that without religion we would be eating babies and raping dogs.

The number of civil nontheists clearly demonstrates the opposite, and if one observes the animal kingdom, we see ordered societies and families of different species.... which, surprisingly, DON'T rape and kill each other daily (alright, sometimes they do, but humans do that too... any society will have some kind of social deviance). The truth is that even animals have a sort of morality... the only difference between us and them is that we are intelligent enough to give it a philosophical label.

Animals don't worship a god. And since we're animals too, and we can obtain ideas about morality without theistic religion, why would we have to?

At the core of the issue, Satanists are capable of seeing the world and morality through an atheistic, materialist, nature-centered view.

Once we set ourselves up as God’s we are in for a terrible fall.

Again, this cannot be substantiated without invoking supernatural ideas like God and Karma, which can't be proven scientifically.

The material world is all we can observe, so we see no logical reason to live our lives otherwise.


Edited by The Zebu (09/28/08 11:08 PM)
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