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#11908 - 09/27/08 01:31 PM The Satanic Bible`
lux Offline
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Registered: 09/26/08
Posts: 64
Loc: Newcastle UK
I have just read a few books in the Satanic Bible, its just athiesm... I see a poor man who fails to understand the christian persepctive, who reduces it all to basic fairy tales, puts that up as the real true christianity and then tears it down. It seems he has a problem with Christianity not an affinity with the devil.

"All devout "white-lighters" are concerned with pleasing God so that they might have the
"Pearly Gates" opened for them when they die."

That is untrue, salvation does not come from "good works"

"The Catholics believe that the Protestants are doomed to Hell simply because they do not belong to the Catholic Church"

again this is untrue, since protestants are part of the Catholic church even if they dont accept it, baptism is into the Catholic faith. What is more we do not say anyone is doomed to hell. We say there is no ASSURANCE of salvation outside the catholic church, we do not presume to know what will become of the man in deepest darkest africa who has never heard the word...But even these people are in kind part of the Catholic Church because we by our faith and prayers entrust the souls of such people into the merciful hands of Christ.

"What better way than through
"prayer"! What a simperingly polite way of saying: "I hate your guts,"

Prayer is not about hatred, its about love.. if someone loves someone they will want the best for them, they will offer them what they feel is best for them and if they reject it, there is nothing more a christian can do, prayer is the entrustment of their soul into God's loving and caring hands....odd way of hating someone.... sure you hate the error, but the person... not at all.

"If we hope and pray for something to come about, we will not act in a positive way which will
make it happen"

But if we have no hope of that something to come about we will not act at all, since it would be hopeless.

"Cursed are the poor in spirit, for they shall be spat upon!"

Lovely, lets spit at people!

"Cursed are the feeble, for they shall be blotted out!"

Ah a Darwinism, is this really the type of world you want to bring about! Where anyone stronger than you has the right to Blot you out?

Evidence of a new satanic age is a good read and dont think the Cathoic Church is not well aware of this "new satanic age", we are steadfast in proclaiming the gospel, that the bible is an eternal book not out of date, and with the rise of this "new satanic age", it is clearly relevant. you have to remember that the Catholic mission is the same as Christs, we have to be born, we did that at the first pentecost, grow, we did that, teach the world, we have done that and now its time to suffer and soon enough it will be time to die....we know!

But after Good friday past easter sunday came, the ressurection. The New life.

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#11909 - 09/27/08 02:00 PM Re: The Satanic Bible` [Re: lux]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3138
 Quote:
Prayer is not about hatred, its about love..

Mostly a prayer about someone who did wrong to you is something like "Father please forgive his sins, he didn't know what he was doing" or something. It can actually be translated as: forgive this poor bastard 'cause he is an idiot. Hate is also a form of love, but most people seem to forget that part....

 Quote:
That is untrue, salvation does not come from "good works"
Not the first time I heard that, I asked once to a person who said this: how do I get my salvation then? He answered something like divine plan and that it is up to god because he knows all. Does that idea is the same aplied to you? To be honest I think it is hypocrite. In the end it wouldn't even matter if I had sins, god decides who enters or get salvation and who doesn't. And to me it doesn't stroke with the idea of a real neutral judge. He can judge on looks, ideas, behaviour, money... There is no one who can say he may not judge that way.....

 Quote:
But if we have no hope of that something to come about we will not act at all, since it would be hopeless.

We don't use hope in the form of prayer, we use hope in the form of ideas and actions. It is to say; a satanist wants to have a happy joyfull life. If something terrible happens our main purpose is bringing it down and try to achieve once again our good lives. This forms our hope and not an almighty god wich is doubtfull to help.

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Lovely, lets spit at people!

Much more fun then turning the other cheek as a real wussy, however it takes some guts to do it... On the other hand it can be quite dumb 'cause you are tempting the other one to kick your ass totally. Better have a little chat and spit on a descend way on you oppenent.

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Evidence of a new satanic age is a good read and dont think the Cathoic Church is not well aware of this "new satanic age", we are steadfast in proclaiming the gospel, that the bible is an eternal book not out of date, and with the rise of this "new satanic age", it is clearly relevant. you have to remember that the Catholic mission is the same as Christs, we have to be born, we did that at the first pentecost, grow, we did that, teach the world, we have done that and now its time to suffer and soon enough it will be time to die....we know!
Personally i'm not a great fan of Docter Laveye, he became a bit Loco in the end but anyway.
In my opinion it isn't us satanists that our the real evil or the persons who are to be dealt with if the apocalypse may happen. I more belief it would be the Christians themselves. If you take a look at their history they really have the same things as the satan described within the bible. Misleaded, they have some sort hierachy with codes, and so on. Satanism as I know it is quite chaotique, there is almost no hierachy (except for these theistic idiots who perform a sort of inversed christianity), and most of all we are quite friendly if ever met in person.
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#11916 - 09/27/08 07:48 PM Re: The Satanic Bible` [Re: lux]
Fabiano Offline
member


Registered: 09/06/08
Posts: 374
 Quote:
"All devout "white-lighters" are concerned with pleasing God so that they might have the
"Pearly Gates" opened for them when they die."

That is untrue, salvation does not come from "good works"


Indeed, this is well explained in the Epistle to the Romans. Ro 3-27 "It's the justice of God by the faith in J-C for all ... and they're freely justifed by his faith").

But first, don't most of the "Catholic lambda" do good things for going to heaven rather than burning in hell for eternity.
How many of them can freely give without any kind of "return of investment" idea behind this act. How many can be truely mushotoku ?

Second, being justified by the faith means that one just has to believe blindly without asking any question and he'll be saved. Don't dare to emit some doubt, don't dare to ask for facts & figures. Just adore God and belief in J-C and you'll be saved. Do the opposite, God will withdraw you his love and will send you in hell with the "evil Satan". Staline did almost the same with his opposant isn't it? Anyway, if I must burn in Hell for eternity, I prefer to be one of the Satan's friend. \:D

I'm probably cursed and my soul lost as I denied God & J-C. So it means that whatever good action I'll do it will count for nothing. Thanks God, you're realy fair play ! :-).
Note that in this position, I'm probably better placed to be able to give freely without any hope of return ! ;\) How God can be so devious?

 Quote:
We say there is no ASSURANCE of salvation outside the catholic church,

Do you say also there is an ASSURANCE of salvation inside the Catholic Church? You can have two positions here :
1. The sectarian one saying salvation is inside the church. Meaning the muslims, the bouddhist, the Hnidouists, the atheists,... have no chance to be saved.
2. The non sectarian one saying that sincere men will be saved. Meaning that the sincere muslim or Hindoust or Atheist, the one who beliefs in his values and try to apply them in his day to day live will be saved.

If you choose 1. you have a problem (considered as dangerous for the society, for instance by the french law against sects), if you choose 2. you must admit that myself, as a sincere Satanist, I'll be saved too. \:\)

 Quote:
But after Good friday past easter sunday came, the ressurection. The New life.


That's the point. Are you sure there will be a New Life? We don't belive in Heaven & Hell, we just know we're on Earth !

All my previous comments were made from a theistic point of view (just to be on the same wavelength than you) but I'm not. I repeat: I do not belive in Hell & Heaven, they're just illusions.

Fabiano

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#11935 - 09/28/08 08:18 AM Re: The Satanic Bible` [Re: Fabiano]
lux Offline
Banned
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Registered: 09/26/08
Posts: 64
Loc: Newcastle UK
“Mostly a prayer about someone who did wrong to you is something like "Father please forgive his sins, he didn't know what he was doing" or something. It can actually be translated as: forgive this poor bastard 'cause he is an idiot. Hate is also a form of love, but most people seem to forget that part.... “

I suppose it could be translated into that if you want to use rhetoric but technically I suppose it could be. I mean JC said that on the Cross, if he truly was the son of God then were not the Jews and romans idiots for rejecting him, if we are taking things to the extreme ( I don’t want to be insulting) then if Jesus does exist and is the son of God then arnt you an “idiot” for rejecting him also?

And if he is not real, am I not an idiot for believing?

“Not the first time I heard that, I asked once to a person who said this: how do I get my salvation then? He answered something like divine plan and that it is up to god because he knows all.”

Well accept it as a free gift, salvation is for all who want it. But its not really enough just to say “I am saved” hey.. no you really have to want it… and how can you really want something you don’t believe in?

“Much more fun then turning the other cheek as a real wussy”

Yeah Jesus was a wuss, Peter, Paul all those matyred for their faith…. Real wussy like!

“But first, don't most of the "Catholic lambda" do good things for going to heaven rather than burning in hell for eternity.”

Well no not at all, Catholics do good works first and foremost because they love God, 2nd because they love their fellow man.

“How many of them can freely give without any kind of "return of investment" idea behind this act. How many can be truely mushotoku ?“

We are in a debt to Christ we can never pay back, but he has written that debt off, it is from a sense of gratitude that Good works come.

And when we look we see this teaching coming from Jesus that this is how it should be, it just actually works, it just manifests itself that way, there is no pain but joy in giving because your actually thanking God, rejoicing and so it makes you happy to give…. Its strange how it works, but it does…don’t ask me why but it does! “freely you have received, now freely give”

“Second, being justified by the faith means that one just has to believe blindly without asking any question and he'll be saved. Don't dare to emit some doubt, don't dare to ask for facts & figures”

Like I said on the other thread, Mother Teresa doubted she believe was almost certain she did not but she had faith.

There is belief in Jesus and then there is faith in Jesus. There is belief he exists (hope for the next world) and faith in his philosophy (hope for this world) and faith in his promises.(hope for this world and the next)

“Do you say also there is an ASSURANCE of salvation inside the Catholic Church?”

Yes that is the only assured way.

“You can have two positions here :
1. The sectarian one saying salvation is inside the church. Meaning the muslims, the bouddhist, the Hnidouists, the atheists,... have no chance to be saved.
2. The non sectarian one saying that sincere men will be saved. Meaning that the sincere muslim or Hindoust or Atheist, the one who beliefs in his values and try to apply them in his day to day live will be saved.

If you choose 1. you have a problem (considered as dangerous for the society, for instance by the french law against sects), if you choose 2. you must admit that myself, as a sincere Satanist, I'll be saved too. ”

Well neither of those are the Catholic View, the only assurance of salvation is within the Catholic Church….. we do not suppose to know what God will do with muslims Buddhists atheists…we only know that salvation is ASSURED only in the Catholic Faith by Jesus Christs promises… we don’t know what will happen to those not in the Catholic faith, but we do believe in the love of god and in the mercy of Jesus Christ… our hope is that they too get salvation, but there is no assurance of it.


“That's the point. Are you sure there will be a New Life? We don't belive in Heaven & Hell, we just know we're on Earth !”

I was speaking in earthly terms there, that Catholicism will seem as though it is dead but will seemingly come back to life, much stronger and glorified. But I do believe in an after life, am I sure…no but I have faith in the promises of Christ.

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#11939 - 09/28/08 09:29 AM Re: The Satanic Bible` [Re: lux]
DistroyA Offline
member


Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 478
Loc: Mansfield, Nottinghamshire, UK
Okay, I've gotta add my 2 cents into this whole Jesus Christ argument.

You keep saying he existed and that he was the son of God. Now all I can say to that is this;

Jesus, the public speaker. I believe he may very well have existed back in the olden times. As for if he was the son of God, that's debatable.

You keep preaching to us all, when really, it's a futile effort. We're all more sceptical than you expect, and we won't blindly say "My lord, Jesus Christ; I accept thee into my heart and repent all the sins I have committed." What makes you think we will? Because armageddon's coming? That's about as real as the Large Hadron Collider creating a black hole that will consume the world.

As for the after life, I'm quite open minded to that theory, but not in a Judeo-Christian way of thinking. But that's just my view point.

Now onto the subject of salvation, you say this;

 Quote:
we do not suppose to know what God will do with muslims Buddhists atheists…we only know that salvation is ASSURED only in the Catholic Faith by Jesus Christs promises


That seems to me that so long as YOU are saved, it doesn't really matter if anyone who doesn't believe is "saved". How very "altruistic" of you.

Then you say this;

 Quote:
but we do believe in the love of god and in the mercy of Jesus Christ… our hope is that they too get salvation, but there is no assurance of it.


Make your mind up please Lux.

The fact that you've had the outright nerve to come onto a Satanic forum to challenge us is quite ballsy, so you get some respect for that. The problem I have is that you keep going in circles with your arguments, and therefore, they seem pointless. It seems obvious to me that we're just going to get the same response from you every time, and we aren't going to get anywhere on either side. We're both set in our ways, and that's it.

That's all I can say on this matter. And that's all I will say, as we'll be going in a constant circle if we debate this matter further.
_________________________
"A man chooses, a slave obeys." - Andrew Ryan of Ryan Industries (Bioshock)

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#11941 - 09/28/08 10:08 AM Re: The Satanic Bible` [Re: DistroyA]
lux Offline
Banned
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Registered: 09/26/08
Posts: 64
Loc: Newcastle UK
"You keep saying he existed and that he was the son of God"

I keep say *I believe* he exists and that he is the son of God.

"if he was the son of God, that's debatable."

I get a sense of agnosticism from this comment.

are there satanists on this forum who if not believe in a real satan consider it a possibility?

"That seems to me that so long as YOU are saved, it doesn't really matter if anyone who doesn't believe is "saved". How very "altruistic" of you."

Make your mind up please Lux.

No we obviously would like them to become Catholics and share in the Assurance of salvation but often it does not happen,with such people we simply entrust them to the mercy of Christ.

I am not preaching my faith to you, but defending my faith TSB certainly has a lot to say about what Christianity is, there are plenty of misconceptions

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#11942 - 09/28/08 10:28 AM Re: The Satanic Bible` [Re: lux]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3138
 Quote:
I keep say *I believe* he exists and that he is the son of God

As far as I am concerned, he existed but he is dead now. And also he isn't the son of god, they made him son of god within the concile of Nicea.

 Quote:
are there satanists on this forum who if not believe in a real satan consider it a possibility?

To be honest I doubt about that.

 Quote:
No we obviously would like them to become Catholics and share in the Assurance of salvation but often it does not happen,with such people we simply entrust them to the mercy of Christ.


 Quote:
I am not preaching my faith to you, but defending my faith TSB certainly has a lot to say about what Christianity is, there are plenty of misconceptions

For starters, what are we doing wrong if we do not believe in god? I mean, assume everything in the bible is true, god shall forgive us because we didn't know for sure. And he would forgive us because of the hypocrisy within the church itself who has possibly turned away much people.

 Quote:
I am not preaching my faith to you, but defending my faith TSB certainly has a lot to say about what Christianity is, there are plenty of misconceptions

Question to you my friend, why are you defending your faith? We as a person haven't attacked it (yet)?
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#11943 - 09/28/08 10:59 AM Re: The Satanic Bible` [Re: Dimitri]
lux Offline
Banned
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Registered: 09/26/08
Posts: 64
Loc: Newcastle UK
"As far as I am concerned, he existed but he is dead now. And also he isn't the son of god, they made him son of god within the concile of Nicea."

Christians always held the belief that Jesus was and is God, The Son of the God head, it is littered throughout our early texts. In The NT Peter declares "I say you are the Christ, The son of the most high" to which Jesus replys "Blessed art thou, Simon son of Jonah for flesh and blood has not reveled this to you but my father in heaven"

A lot of heresy was kicking about at the time regarding the divinity of Christ, the council simply made it an artical of faith.

"For starters, what are we doing wrong if we do not believe in god? I mean, assume everything in the bible is true, god shall forgive us because we didn't know for sure. And he would forgive us because of the hypocrisy within the church itself who has possibly turned away much people£

Maybe God would forgive you I dont know. Thats upto God. but would you want to be forgiven?

"Question to you my friend, why are you defending your faith? We as a person haven't attacked it (yet)? "

I dont mean defending it from attack but from misconceptions.

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#11945 - 09/28/08 11:14 AM Re: The Satanic Bible` [Re: lux]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3138
 Quote:
Christians always held the belief that Jesus was and is God, The Son of the God head, it is littered throughout our early texts. In The NT Peter declares "I say you are the Christ, The son of the most high" to which Jesus replys "Blessed art thou, Simon son of Jonah for flesh and blood has not reveled this to you but my father in heaven"

Got any auditive proof of that? Didn't think so, it can't be proven he said it. He isn't here to claim he said it. There is no one else alive who was there at that moment. And also it was spoken for tens of years, there is a huge time leap where it is possible people may have invented that part. It is like the head of the scientology claiming his SF-story to be true. Can someone actually proove his words? No one can because they only "believe". Believing in something doesn't make it automatically true. Like, I believe we people have a soul. I can't prove I am right, neither can I proove wrong. You have to be critical within such things. My scientifque mind says, Not seen, not calculated --> no proof/evidence--> not existant. And you can't blame me for that. It is logical thinking.

 Quote:
Maybe God would forgive you I dont know. Thats upto God. but would you want to be forgiven?
I forgive myself most of the time, I don't need others to say I'm forgiving. How I do it? I face up the consequences from my faults and I'll put them right again. No need for a invisible being of force of nature.

 Quote:
I dont mean defending it from attack but from misconceptions.

I don't know about you, but I haven't got much misconceptions about X-ianity. I think most of us don't. We mostly bash on fundamentalists who claim, spread the word without knowing what they did in the past years. Xianity isn't one of the good religions. It can be seen as very dark "satanic" religion. Like the bible, god claims satan is evil. But in the whole bible God kills 100.000 people.. maybe more. The devil on the contrary who is evil himself to most of you; only kills 10.
Same goes up in reality, true satanists nowadays have killed 0 people in the last 1000 years. Inverted christians and christians slaughterd thousands and millions of people in the last 1000 years with their crusades and holy wars. Just start thinking, where lies the true evil? Within the people you believe in? Or the people like us who prefer to call them individuals?

 Quote:
Much more fun then turning the other cheek as a real wussy”
You have to be more accurate you know. I indeed said those words but there was added "however it takes some guts to do it, in that case you are brave, or on other hand you are dumb".

 Quote:
I suppose it could be translated into that if you want to use rhetoric but technically I suppose it could be. I mean JC said that on the Cross, if he truly was the son of God then were not the Jews and romans idiots for rejecting him, if we are taking things to the extreme ( I don’t want to be insulting) then if Jesus does exist and is the son of God then arnt you an “idiot” for rejecting him also?

Slight misunderstanding here wich most of these xians make. Saying you don't believe in him doesn't makes you rejecting him. There is one huge difference between rejection and disbelieve.
I believe in christ as a human being (and probably the first satanic one), that he indeed existed, that he was a good speaker, but not that he was a son of god and had incredible forces. He was just a man like you and me. That's all, he fucked maria magdalena, he liked boobies as a real man, he took a shit when he had to go to the toilet, he farted and he burped.


Edited by Dimitri (09/28/08 11:25 AM)
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#11946 - 09/28/08 11:21 AM Re: The Satanic Bible` [Re: Dimitri]
DistroyA Offline
member


Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 478
Loc: Mansfield, Nottinghamshire, UK
 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
 Quote:
I am not preaching my faith to you, but defending my faith TSB certainly has a lot to say about what Christianity is, there are plenty of misconceptions

Question to you my friend, why are you defending your faith? We as a person haven't attacked it (yet)?
I couldn't have put it better myself. This is pretty much what I was thinking when I read all of the preaching, and it IS preaching Lux.

Quite frankly, I don't care if you are Catholic or not. What bothers me is that you come in here and start "defending" your faith when we as a community haven't attacked it. I will agree that TSB has attacked Christianity/Catholicism/whichever, but only in an informative way. Thing is, Christianity isn't important anymore to society today. Sure, there are still people, like yourself, who follow Catholicism/Christianity as much as they possibly can, where as a lot of people seem to think that's the label they should have, but they don't really take it seriously. And if they don't take it seriously, why should they even label themselves Christians in the first place?

As for Satanists thinking there may be a possibility of a divine creator, I wouldn't know. I'm agnostic and healthily sceptical when it comes to this sort of thing. It could be possible, but how should I know? If there was such a divine creator, why should he/she/it care what we do on this planet and what we do with our lives?

And whilst we're on the subject of caring about what other people do with their own lives, why should you care what I or anyone else does with his/her life? It's not affecting you, since we're in no way on a crusade to "convert" people, unlike yourself.
_________________________
"A man chooses, a slave obeys." - Andrew Ryan of Ryan Industries (Bioshock)

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#11947 - 09/28/08 11:25 AM Re: The Satanic Bible` [Re: lux]
Nemesis Offline
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Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2175
Loc: US
Lux, I appreciate the point you're trying to get across to us. While you're not necessarily preaching to us, per se, you ARE telling us things many of us already know, and have rejected or come to find as false. More than half of the Satanists on this forum were once considered Christians, some hardcore, some with just a mild investment in it. You say there are many misconceptions about the Christian faith, yet how can you argue that with people who have either been raised in the belief or been "born-again", trying to find something to give them meaning in their lives, only to find nothing but guilt and shame heaped upon them for being who they are, by this very faith?

 Quote:
Well accept it as a free gift, salvation is for all who want it.

And yet nothing in life is truly free, and in this case, you have to blindly believe in something that cannot be proven to exist, rejecting or simply ignoring all information to the contrary. You are taking a step backward in your mental evolution, regressing to a child-like view of the world. You are in a way, giving up your personal accountability, and transferring it onto to God or Christ. That's like living with your parents until you're 30, letting them make the hard decisions for you, just so long as you do your laundry and wash the dishes.

 Quote:
Yeah Jesus was a wuss, Peter, Paul all those martyred for their faith…. Real wussy like!

Martyrdom is a waste of life, no matter what the cause is for. It's just as useless for Muslims to blow themselves up for Allah as it is for Christians to die for their God. Jesus and his apostles would have been better off continuing to do their good works and giving hope to people until they died of old age or some other natural causes. Yet here again, God's cruelty and mercilessness is shown, letting his "son" be dragged through the streets, nailed to a cross and left to die in agony. Gee, thanks Dad, you're a fucking peach. There are dozens of accounts of these "tests of faith" and similar kinds of bullshit throughout the Bible. All it does for us is serve to illustrate what an ultimate nut-job the Judeo-Christian god is, and how far away we'd like to stay from him.

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We are in a debt to Christ we can never pay back

If I wanted to be in debt, I'd rack my credit cards up. Seriously, nobody asked Christ to die for us. That's like a friend buying you a car and "hoping" you'll drive him around in it all the time. The Christian faith comes with a heavy burden and quite honestly, I have more important things to concern myself with. Such as, living my life the way I see fit, with no strings attached, no "cross" to bear throughout my life.

 Quote:
there is no pain but joy in giving because your actually thanking God, rejoicing and so it makes you happy to give…. Its strange how it works, but it does…don’t ask me why but it does! “freely you have received, now freely give”

Why does giving have to be tied to God? Giving has been a benefit to societies since the beginning of evolved mammals. And no, that wasn't a few thousands years ago either! To apes, dolphins and whales, and birds (and probably a bunch of other critters as well), giving is survival. If you help someone out, there's a good chance you'll receive aid in the future when you need it. Humans did this, and the practice evolved over time into being a ritual, as well as attaching emotional connotations to the act.

 Quote:
Evidence of a new satanic age is a good read and don't think the Catholic Church is not well aware of this "new satanic age", we are steadfast in proclaiming the gospel

And yet, all across the world, the numbers of Catholics are on a steady decline. That's because more and more people have found peace and understanding outside religion, or have discovered more tolerant ones that are not so rigid.

 Quote:
the bible is an eternal book

Incorrect. The Old Testament contains the same books as the Tanakh, or Hebrew Bible. However it divides and orders them differently, and varies from Judaism in interpretation and emphasis. So, the Bible as you know it has been around as long as the Jews have, circa 1500-2000 BC.
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Nothing is sacred.

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#11948 - 09/28/08 11:32 AM Re: The Satanic Bible` [Re: Nemesis]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3138
 Quote:
Yeah Jesus was a wuss, Peter, Paul all those matyred for their faith…. Real wussy like!

I would like to add on this, that's not being a wussy, that's the price of being idiot and not looking out what you are doing.
Just as Nemsis said: dying as a martyr is one of the most idiot ways to go. I prefer to die in peace... or with my sexual frustrated mind: dying on a bed surrounded by nice-looking ladies with their boobies on my body. Now that's a pleasant way to die...
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#11949 - 09/28/08 12:24 PM Re: The Satanic Bible` [Re: Nemesis]
lux Offline
Banned
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Registered: 09/26/08
Posts: 64
Loc: Newcastle UK
"Got any auditive proof of that? Didn't think so"

I accept it on the authority of the Catholic Church, we take a lot on authority we believe the hollocaust happened on authority of historians etc.

"Thing is, Christianity isn't important anymore to society today"

I am unsure about that comment, society dosnt see the importance of Christianity, I dont think that is true... or Christianity has nothing important that it can give society.. i dont think that is true either.

"why should you care what I or anyone else does with his/her life?"

Because we care about other people..why should we care about other people... because we love other people, why should we love others

1.Because we are Christians and are taught to care about people


2. because loving others is beneficial to mankind

"Yet here again, God's cruelty and mercilessness is shown, letting his "son" be dragged through the streets, nailed to a cross and left to die in agony. Gee, thanks Dad, you're a fucking peach"

LOL!!! That is funny.

You see failure to understand Christianity brings about these misconception, first of all Christians believe Jesus is God made man, it was Jesus will to do this, it was his reason to wanting to become man. I wont "Preach" to you about the attonement, but will just let you know you have not understood it...if you want me to try to explain it, let me know and i will.

"And yet, all across the world, the numbers of Catholics are on a steady decline. That's because more and more people have found peace and understanding outside religion, or have discovered more tolerant ones that are not so rigid."

Vatican City, May 27, 2008 / 10:30 am (CNA).- The latest statistics for the Catholic Church have been released by the Vatican for the years 2000-2006. The results show that the overall population has remained stable but that Europe’s population has continued to decline (What else can be expected since the whole of Europe is suffering a "depopulation crisis") while African and Asia have maintained strong growth.

The Statistical Yearbook of the Church, says that over the seven year period, the Catholic presence in the world has remained stable at around 17.3 percent of the total population.

The number of Catholics in Europe has only shown a *one percent increase*, despite the fact that 25 percent of all Catholics live there. All other areas of the world showed a more substantial increase. In the Americas and in Oceania the number of Catholics grew by 8.4 percent and 7.6 percent respectively; in Asia they remained more or less stable with respect to population growth, whereas in Africa they increased from 130 million in 2000 to 158.3 million in 2006.

The ranks of the clergy also saw an upswing with the number of bishops in the world rising from 4,541 in 2000 to 4,898 in 2006, an increase of 7.86 percent.

The number of priests also increased slightly over this seven-year period by about 2,000, that is from 405,178 in 2000 to 407,262 in 2006, an overall rise of around 0.51 percent.

In keeping with the trend in Catholic population growth, the global south (Africa and Asia) saw priestly vocations increase by 23.24 percent and 17.71 percent respectively. The Americas maintained their number of priests, while Europe and Oceania witnessed a decline in their priestly ranks of 5.75 percent 4.37 percent correspondingly.

The number of diocesan priests increased by two percent, going from 265,781 in 2000 to 271,091 in 2006. By contrast, the number of religious order priests showed a constant decline, down by 2.31 percent to 136,000 in 2006.

Europe was the only continent to take a hit in the number of religious order priests: in 2000 they represented 51 percent of the world total, in 2006 just 48 percent. On the other hand, Asia and Africa together represented 17.5 percent of the world total in 2000 and 21 percent in 2006. The Americas remained steady at around 30 percent, and Oceania a little more than one percent.

Non-ordained religious numbered 55.057 in the year 2000 and 55,107 in 2006. Comparing this data by continent, Europe showed a strong decline (down by 12.01 percent), as did Oceania (16.83 percent), the Americas remained stable, while Asia and Africa increased (respectively, by 30.63 percent and 8.13 percent).

Female religious are almost double the number of priests, and 14 times that of non-ordained male religious, but their numbers are falling, from 800,000 in 2000 to 750,000 in 2006. As for their geographical distribution, 42 percent reside in Europe, 28.03 percent in America and 20 percent in Asia. The number of female religious has increased in the most dynamic continents: Africa (up by 15.45 percent) and Asia (up by 12.78 percent).

A final bright spot that the statistical yearbook noted was an upswing in the number of seminarians in diocesan and religious seminaries. Globally, their numbers increased from 110.583 in 2000 to more than 115.000 in 2006, a growth of 4.43 percent. In Africa and Asia their numbers went up whereas Europe saw a reduction of around 16 percent.

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=12752

By Eternal book I meant in relevance

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#11957 - 09/28/08 06:06 PM Re: The Satanic Bible` [Re: lux]
Fabiano Offline
member


Registered: 09/06/08
Posts: 374
Lux,

You said the only assured way of salvation is Catholic Church. I was about to ask you how you define the "Catholic Church". From your previous post where you refer to some statictics from the Vatican City, I have the answer.

Do you now realise I'm included in your stats because I was baptised when I was a baby? Do I thus have also my insurance for salvation? If not, it means I'm not a Catholic and your stats are wrong ! (if yes, thanks the pope or whoever for my pass to Heaven ! LOL)
There is a huge difference between the Churchs and their member as officialy defined/counted and the set of those who really believe in the religion the official Church represents.

If you consider the Catholic Church like that, and you add it's the only assured way of salvation, and you finish by perhaps non christians will be saved by or God because we know him mercifully. Then, I think your position is dangerously close to sectarism!


Fabiano

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#11959 - 09/28/08 07:37 PM Re: The Satanic Bible` [Re: Fabiano]
blsk Offline
member


Registered: 09/22/08
Posts: 298
Loc: salem or
Lux. Since you chose to pick and choose from the TSB(much like your own), LaVey also mentions your idolatry(which you conveniently failed to mention). How do you defend your glamorous crosses and rosaries. Are not those man made and taken from the earth? Also, your bible says to stay away from people like us as "bad associations spoil useful habbits." I am in no way asking you to leave, I kinda like this sort of discussion. Again I am simply asking you how you defend this. Picking and choosing and what not. One more thing. Do you believe "god" takes people for a greater purpose? A reasoning often regarding death.
_________________________
Ed made mens sewing cool.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9mhsW5aWJM

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#11960 - 09/28/08 07:50 PM Re: The Satanic Bible` [Re: lux]
blsk Offline
member


Registered: 09/22/08
Posts: 298
Loc: salem or
P.S. sorry folks. I'll post correctly one of these days.

Edited by Nemesis (09/28/08 08:29 PM)
Edit Reason: Double post...if you need a post deleted, just PM a mod, we don't always bite :D
_________________________
Ed made mens sewing cool.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9mhsW5aWJM

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#11967 - 09/28/08 09:44 PM Re: The Satanic Bible` [Re: blsk]
DistroyA Offline
member


Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 478
Loc: Mansfield, Nottinghamshire, UK
 Quote:
I accept it on the authority of the Catholic Church, we take a lot on authority we believe the hollocaust happened on authority of historians etc.
Please don't tell me you're denying the holocaust happened. That would be foolish, seeing as it's documented AND there have been witnesses.

Comparing faith to actual history on this scale is quite sick really.
_________________________
"A man chooses, a slave obeys." - Andrew Ryan of Ryan Industries (Bioshock)

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#11971 - 09/28/08 11:05 PM Re: The Satanic Bible` [Re: lux]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1646
Loc: Orlando, FL
I am going to have to contest this view.

The vast majority of people, especially Americans, who call themselves "Christians" are usually secular-minded people who have not given their religion much thought. They do not understand everything they profess to believe, and are generally biblically illiterate. The total influence of religion in their lives can be summed up to going to church twice a year for Easter and Christmas. They still identify as Christians, yet many will die without reading through the Bible even once.

And then of course, as Fabiano said, numbers taken from sacramental census don't take apostates into account.

Worldwide, Religious Christianity is growing, true, but mostly in underdeveloped parts of the world like Africa and South America. (it's pretty much a conversion contest between Catholicism and Evangelical Pentecostalism)
_________________________
«Recibe, ¡oh Lucifer! la sangre de esta víctima que sacrifico en tu honor.»

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#11975 - 09/29/08 12:10 AM Re: The Satanic Bible` [Re: lux]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2573
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
I clicked over here thinking this was a discussion about the Satanic Bible the book, but it seems to be more of a "my religious book is better than yours" tennis volley.

To me this kind of thing always misses the essential point, e.g. what's the substance of the book or books? Where did your [and the other fellow's] book come from? Who wrote it/pieced it together? When and why? And finally, why have you decided that it's either interesting or absolutely crucial to you?

We all know about the SB. It began life in 1968 as a collection of mimeographed diatribes which Anton LaVey handed out to new members of the Church. In 1969 Peter Mayer of Avon Books invited him to do a book, so he and his wife Diane redid the mimeo sheets into the "Book of Lucifer", added the membership handouts for basic rituals, and padded it in the front with Ragnar Redbeard's "Might is Right" and in the back with Crowley's version of the Enochian Keys (appropriately Satanized). Anton gave it a vaudevillian sendoff with Yankee Rose, and it was off and running - then at US$.95/copy.

But now we come to the more obscure and fascinating history: that of the Holy Bible. Have you ever wondered how so many people worldwide are so dependent and reliant upon this book without having the slightest idea about its origins? Well, wouldn't you want to know if you were a Christian or a Jew?

Some years ago I came across a very interesting series on PBS: John Romer's Testament. He's a distinguished British archæologist who decided to take viewers on a historical & geographical journey concerning the Bible's origins. It was utterly fascinating. Here's a brief clip to give you the flavor. The last time I looked, the video series was difficult to find and rather expensive, but happily Romer also wrote a companion book, also called Testament, which is readily and budgetarily available. Read more about John Romer here.

No matter what your personal religious preferences, this is a core cultural base of Western civilization, and once you know how it gradually came together from a variety of more ancient Mediterranean, Mesopotamian, and African mythologies; and how it influenced and was modified in accordance with the next two thousand years of Western history; you'll have that much better a grasp of why so many of today's social systems and values "are as they are".

Indeed, after digesting the series and the book, I have often found myself in the mildly amusing position of teaching Christians more about their religion than they knew when they approached me with "conversion & salvation" in mind.
_________________________
Michael A. Aquino

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#11979 - 09/29/08 01:37 AM Re: The Satanic Bible` [Re: blsk]
Fist Moderator Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/31/07
Posts: 1453
Loc: B'mo Cautious MF
Lux, allow me to help you out a little.

If you are here to learn about Satanism or the LHP in general then feel free to ask questions.

However, If you are here to proselytize or preach 'the word' then be gone.

Everyone here can read and we already know the Jesus story. Personally, I like the Monty Python version where Jesus is the bastard son of a Roman soldier. Perhaps you prefer the King James version - to each his own.
_________________________
I am the Devil and I am here to do the Devil's work.

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#11986 - 09/29/08 01:03 PM Re: The Satanic Bible` [Re: Fist]
The Zebu Offline
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Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1646
Loc: Orlando, FL
Well I don't think Brian was literally supposed to be Jesus, but it does put a humanizing spin on the typically over-romanticized legend of Christ.

To me it seems like Lux is trying to engage in debate, which is fair enough, considering he's been civil so far.
_________________________
«Recibe, ¡oh Lucifer! la sangre de esta víctima que sacrifico en tu honor.»

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#11993 - 09/29/08 05:23 PM Re: The Satanic Bible` [Re: The Zebu]
Fabiano Offline
member


Registered: 09/06/08
Posts: 374
 Originally Posted By: The Zebu
To me it seems like Lux is trying to engage in debate, which is fair enough, considering he's been civil so far.


I fully agree!

However, I think there is a risk to "go in circle" or to just define our respective positions with no chance to change. Why not.

I understand Lux cannot answer all of the points we raised and this slows down the "process of pushing the reasoning/tinking to the end".

I enjoyed debating with Lux. From what I saw up to now, what I retain is mainly :
* His position about assurance of salvation only within the Catholic church is to my eyes dangerously close to a sectarian position.
* In addition, how the Catholic Church's memeber are counted/defined makes it a non-sense (e.g. I'm counted as part of it)
* I found definig "evil" funny & instructive.
* The debate on Satanism, Atheism and other religions positionned more accurately the Stanism in the religions & philosophies landscape.
* We diverge with Lux on the Faith without hope of changing respective positions. He beleives in a new life after dead "just because Christ" said. We do not stop thinking, we do not put our brain in the fridge for just beleive.

Let's wait for next Lux' post... \:\)
*


Edited by Fabiano (09/29/08 05:25 PM)

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#11997 - 09/29/08 07:03 PM Re: The Satanic Bible` [Re: Fabiano]
DistroyA Offline
member


Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 478
Loc: Mansfield, Nottinghamshire, UK
Quite frankly my dears, I felt it got a bit tedious after a while. It got to me the fact that a follower of the Catholic faith had the balls to actually come on here to debate with us. Lux has got respect from me for that manoeuvre, but it still got my back up.

Still, he did provide some intelligent discussion until he decided to preach. Then there was the holocaust remark that really got to me.
_________________________
"A man chooses, a slave obeys." - Andrew Ryan of Ryan Industries (Bioshock)

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#11998 - 09/29/08 07:34 PM Re: The Satanic Bible` [Re: DistroyA]
lux Offline
Banned
pledge


Registered: 09/26/08
Posts: 64
Loc: Newcastle UK
Hi, Just to let you know that I have not forgot this thread, I am tired I have work in the morning.

Before I say good night I just want to appologies to DistroyA for causing him some distess over what I said regarding the hollocaust. I was merely pointing out that I personally have no way of knowing for certain that it did happen because i was not there, just as i was not at the ressurection but i believe in both on the authority of historians and on the catholic church respectivly, interesting that you should mark out the exact same reasons for believing the hollocuast happened as to what the catholic church says about Christs life.... it is well documented, there were witnesses... still i have to agree one is harder to believe than the other..merely because we know men, we are men and are fully aware of what men are capable of, on the other hand the ressurection deals with life after death, God etc something we (as yet) on earth have not got any experiance of. but we know men and men lie...but who would die for a lie?

Good night all, I hope to get round to posting a reply to all our comments soon.


Edited by lux (09/29/08 07:35 PM)

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#12000 - 09/29/08 07:50 PM Re: The Satanic Bible` [Re: lux]
DistroyA Offline
member


Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 478
Loc: Mansfield, Nottinghamshire, UK
Well, comparing a priest to a qualified historian who has actually done his homework is a little naive, don'tcha think?

And you don't need to apologise for "causing me distress" over a comment. It wasn't distress per se; more anger than anything.

And now you're going full circle yet again about Christ and his life. I'm going for the compromise answer to that argument and say that Jesus Christ the public speaker may well have existed, but it's yet to be fully proven if he's the actual Son of God or not. I'm leaving that argument there, as I think I should moving onto another thread, since I'll just be adding fuel to the fire... *sighs*
_________________________
"A man chooses, a slave obeys." - Andrew Ryan of Ryan Industries (Bioshock)

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#12001 - 09/29/08 07:54 PM Re: The Satanic Bible` [Re: lux]
blsk Offline
member


Registered: 09/22/08
Posts: 298
Loc: salem or
Just another question lux. The three colors portrayed in your pic, was that unintentional?
_________________________
Ed made mens sewing cool.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9mhsW5aWJM

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#12006 - 09/29/08 08:53 PM Re: The Satanic Bible` [Re: lux]
Nemesis Offline
senior member


Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2175
Loc: US
Let's not forget that fact that we have PHYSICAL EVIDENCE, ie, pictures, survivors, concentration camps and gas chambers, the attic in which Anne Frank and her family hid for years, compared to a text that was written, edited, and added to, by hundreds of priests and monks and what not over several hundred years, most of whom never even saw Christ. There is just no comparison between the two "histories".
_________________________
Nothing is sacred.

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#12008 - 09/29/08 09:04 PM Re: The Satanic Bible` [Re: lux]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1646
Loc: Orlando, FL
You can't really compare the two. We have photos of gas chambers and rotting piles of corpses, transcripts of concentration camp executions, millions of eyewitness accounts.... and not so much as a photograph of Jesus walking on water. The only support for Christ's divinity comes from a handful of letters from his followers.

For all the claims Christianity makes, it doesn't have enough evidence for us to put faith in it.


Edited by The Zebu (09/29/08 09:08 PM)
_________________________
«Recibe, ¡oh Lucifer! la sangre de esta víctima que sacrifico en tu honor.»

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#12011 - 09/29/08 09:31 PM Re: The Satanic Bible` [Re: The Zebu]
blsk Offline
member


Registered: 09/22/08
Posts: 298
Loc: salem or
Yes, you have witnesses just the same as that John fellow witnessed an angel coming to him telling him to write the book of mormon
_________________________
Ed made mens sewing cool.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9mhsW5aWJM

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#12012 - 09/29/08 09:42 PM Re: The Satanic Bible` [Re: blsk]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1646
Loc: Orlando, FL
...and that Mohammad also talked to angels and ascended to heaven on a flying horse, and that Musashi could slay a thousand men single-handedly and walk on water, and that pentacostal televanglists can instantaneously heal retards by shoving them in the head.

At least Mormonsim happened in the past 200 years.


Edited by The Zebu (09/29/08 09:42 PM)
_________________________
«Recibe, ¡oh Lucifer! la sangre de esta víctima que sacrifico en tu honor.»

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#12029 - 09/30/08 07:48 AM Re: The Satanic Bible` [Re: The Zebu]
Fabiano Offline
member


Registered: 09/06/08
Posts: 374
 Quote:
I was merely pointing out that I personally have no way of knowing for certain that it did happen because i was not there, just as i was not at the ressurection but i believe in both on the authority of historians and on the catholic church respectivly, interesting that you should mark out the exact same reasons for believing the hollocuast happened as to what the catholic church says about Christs life.... it is well documented, there were witnesses...


Lux, don't be stupid please!

You say you have no mean of knowing it because you were not there. But you have proofs and witnesses.
Our whole justice system is based on witnesses & evidences. So, by saying that, you're like a judge having witnesses and proofs of a murder but who would say "I wasn't there, I cannot be sure". Yes he can be sure, by using his logic and making deductions from prrofs, eveidence and witnesses reports.

So, I think we have about Jesus similar witnesses and evidences than for the hollocaust. Jesus life traces can be found in some writtings of Flavius Josephus (a non christian).

So I have no problem to admit that Jesus existed, that he lived & died +/- 2000 years ago. That's not the point.

The point is that we don't have any eveidence of his resurection. We have only "witnesses" which are more than partial !

Using an other comparison, I would say I have no doubt about the existence of Amenothep II, the pharaoh. But I doubt he's the incarnation of Horus (or any God).

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#12041 - 09/30/08 10:45 AM Re: The Satanic Bible` [Re: blsk]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3138
 Quote:
I accept it on the authority of the Catholic Church, we take a lot on authority we believe the hollocaust happened on authority of historians etc.

Well yeah, it was just god's chosen group of people who was mass murdered, but hey? I only take it in authority because my other masters say to do so. And if they say it didn't happen, who cares, I wasn't there?

Kinda weird actually, we as satanists the preferred outlaws of christianity do feel sorry what happened in the holocaust with "god's chosen group of people". But the christians only take it in authority 'cause the pope told so.Any logic here?
_________________________
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#12211 - 10/04/08 09:30 PM Re: The Satanic Bible` [Re: Dimitri]
Fabiano Offline
member


Registered: 09/06/08
Posts: 374
As I have a question on TSB, I'll use this topic even if not related to the begining of the thread.

So, I didn't find in TSB what appears to be the "basics" of satanist on the FSC web site :

 Quote:

The Nine Satanic Statements

The Nine Satanic Sins

The Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth


As I first went on the net and read TSB afterwards, I was surprised to find only one of the 3 above.
Someone knows from where they come from ?

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#12215 - 10/05/08 01:11 AM Re: The Satanic Bible` [Re: Fabiano]
fakepropht Moderator Offline
Big Slick
active member


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 990
Loc: Texas
I want to say the other 2 appeared in _The Devil's Notebook_. It's been a while since I looked at that book, since my kid stole it. A google search should turn up the answer you are looking for.
_________________________
Beer, the reason I get up every afternoon.

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#12309 - 10/07/08 10:35 AM Re: The Satanic Bible` [Re: fakepropht]
lux Offline
Banned
pledge


Registered: 09/26/08
Posts: 64
Loc: Newcastle UK
"Well, comparing a priest to a qualified historian who has actually done his homework is a little naive, don'tcha think?"

I am not comparing them at all, they both belong to different feilds, I would not trust a historian regarding matters of faith, just as I would not trust a priest in matters of history (unless he has trained in that field)

"It wasn't distress per se; more anger than anything."

I did not want to anger you either, sorry about that.

"Jesus Christ the public speaker may well have existed, but it's yet to be fully proven if he's the actual Son of God or not."

No argument from me, except to say it is more than likely he existed.

"Just another question lux. The three colors portrayed in your pic, was that unintentional?"
Yes, why?

"Let's not forget that fact that we have PHYSICAL EVIDENCE, ie, pictures, survivors, concentration camps and gas chambers, the attic in which Anne Frank and her family hid for years"

Very easily produced. Pictures can be manipulated, people can be "paid" buildings can be built. Really we are basing our belief the nazi holocaust happened on the authority of people we trust.

"compared to a text that was written, edited, and added to, by hundreds of priests and monks and what not over several hundred years, most of whom never even saw Christ. There is just no comparison between the two "histories".
We dont know that monks edited or added to the bible, you are assuming. we know that the canon of NT was changed but not specific texts. But this "developing" of the inspired books of the NT were done under the guidance of the Pope. A "office" I trust, just as I trust certain teachers of history.
"You can't really compare the two. We have photos of gas chambers and rotting piles of corpses, transcripts of concentration camp executions, millions of eyewitness accounts"

Photos can be "doctored" any way what really does a photograph of a starving man really prove, there are many corpses rotting today, you will be one yourself eventually, does that mean I can conclude you died in a holocaust...many could have been dug up and placed in mass graves. transcriptes and documents can be forged, how many of these millions of people have you actually met and know are worthy of trust.... to take anything we have not got first hand experience of is to take that on the authority of someone or something you trust.
"Well yeah, it was just god's chosen group of people who was mass murdered"

and their murderers defeated!

"But the christians only take it in authority 'cause the pope told so.Any logic here? "

you have the whole argument in a complete mess, I belive the holocuast happened on the authority of historians, I believe Jesus was the son of God on the authority of the Catholic Church.

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#12312 - 10/07/08 11:08 AM Re: The Satanic Bible` [Re: lux]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1646
Loc: Orlando, FL
Ok... Lux... there is a difference between historical skepticism and outright irrational suspicion of reality.

Technically your entire life and sense of reality could be a lie carefully constructed by the Evil Genius, but going down that road is tiresome and fruitless. It's not practical.

The Church does pride itself on scholarship, which I do admire, but when it comes to matters of the historicity of the gospels (ESPECIALLY when concerning miracles and such), they are no better off than other historians.

The Catholic Church, as a direct linear organization (not in the abstract theological sense), did not exist until long after Christ's death, so the Church cannot prove that Jesus was divine. All they are capable of doing is propagating their ideas about what the Gospels mean for humanity.

That said, this is how one views Christianity as merely a set of ideas, not some ultimate reality.
_________________________
«Recibe, ¡oh Lucifer! la sangre de esta víctima que sacrifico en tu honor.»

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#12315 - 10/07/08 11:48 AM Re: The Satanic Bible` [Re: The Zebu]
lux Offline
Banned
pledge


Registered: 09/26/08
Posts: 64
Loc: Newcastle UK
"The Catholic Church, as a direct linear organization (not in the abstract theological sense), did not exist until long after Christ's death, so the Church cannot prove that Jesus was divine. All they are capable of doing is propagating their ideas about what the Gospels mean for humanity."

The Catholic Church as most people refer to it or "The Church" as it refers to itself has apostolic succession back to St Peter himself, and thus to Christ. The Church was radically different in its infancy than it is today, it was the "smallest of all the seeds, but today it is a giant tree and all the birds of the air come to rest in its branches". But even though a man grows and he changes he remains the same man, The Church came into existance under Jesus Christ, it was borne to the world at pentecost in AD 33

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#12318 - 10/07/08 02:11 PM Re: The Satanic Bible` [Re: lux]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Why do you so easily accept the biblic truth about christianity?

The oldest scriptures date a couple of hundreds years after Jesus supposed to die and a lot of the writing is probably never written by the ones considered as the authors. They are filled with errors indicating that the writers likely had no clue about the reality they were writing about. Considering them as a historic account on a certain period in time is the same as considering Harry Potter as a scientific account on the truth about magic.

There is nothing wrong with believing in the philosophy of christianity although in my opinion it's a damn waste, but there is a huge difference between accepting its philosophical part and accepting the historic value of it. And if you consider the bible as the true word of god, you can't pick what you like, you either embrace it as a whole or question everything in it. You can't say page 46 to 58 is true and the rest is a myth. Either it is gods word and it is true or it is man's writing and it is questionable.

Did the church start in 33? I don't think so. The church started the day one man realized he could benefit of the hope and fear of another and that was way before 33.

D.

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#12319 - 10/07/08 02:51 PM Re: The Satanic Bible` [Re: Diavolo]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3138
 Originally Posted By: lux
Very easily produced. Pictures can be manipulated, people can be "paid" buildings can be built. Really we are basing our belief the nazi holocaust happened on the authority of people we trust.

First of all, pictures from that time can't be fake. Just for the reason there was no photoshop in that time. And I also don't believe the germans paid millions of people to lie. There was an economic crisis back then. And even so if the photo's were faked. How come we up here in belgium have so much evidence of people who died? Or that the holocaust was a fact?

For someone with a nickname like that you sure aren't bright lighted...

 Originally Posted By: lux
We dont know that monks edited or added to the bible, you are assuming. we know that the canon of NT was changed but not specific texts. But this "developing" of the inspired books of the NT were done under the guidance of the Pope. A "office" I trust, just as I trust certain teachers of history.

I don't know about you, but I have held several bibles and I always found some things had changed. A bible written in 1940 is totally different then a bible from 1970 and on his turn totally different from a new bible. Don't get me wrong, most stories stay the same. But it is just those lines most christians use who change a bit. Just to stay "modern" and to convince people they are the real deal.

 Originally Posted By: lux
and their murderers defeated!

You know... they were almost extinced. If Hitler didn't attack the whole world I think god's chosen group of people was wiped out entirely. Or at least, a couple of hundred would maybe have survived. And not to be anti-semitical but; the jews really were a factor there was an economic crisis in Germany. In 1933 they wanted a boycot against all german products. Because of the fact: fascism was against kapitalism and communism. These 2 political ideas were a good way for them to get much power and money. Fascism wasn't. They would loose power and controle.

But maybe my mind is a bit wandering of, and am I talking bovine excrement. I must admit the last couple of weeks I've been too tired to think phylosophical or clear. So maybe to the admins and mods here. If you start noticing I'm acting a bit weird or am flaming people, feel free to put some censorship on or maybe delete the reaction. Or to say I must hold my breath a bit.
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#12322 - 10/07/08 03:44 PM Re: The Satanic Bible` [Re: Dimitri]
Diavolo Offline
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 Quote:
We dont know that monks edited or added to the bible, you are assuming.


I don't think anyone is just assuming when making that claim.

Monks manually copied most books during some ages and it is known from some books (Josephus, The Antiquities of the Jews) that someone added desired passages in it.
At the same time it has been subject to mistranslation and let us not forget the biggest editing of it all; the decision to allow only those works that fit the desired package. Not all testaments are included in the bible.

One can be pretty sure the bible, old and new part, have been subject to severe editing.

D.

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#12324 - 10/07/08 05:30 PM Re: The Satanic Bible` [Re: Dimitri]
The Zebu Offline
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Actually I will have to note that photos could have been faked back then... look at Stalin's regime. The Soviets were masters of shooping the woop. They did a pretty nice job of editing out "purged" individuals in photographs.

But there is a difference between silently revising minuscule personal details (which even THIS is difficult, as other evidence eventually was brought to light and disproved the Soviet "edits")... and pulling off something like a fake massive genocide in modern Europe.

They would have to keep the mouths of everyone involved (victims, nazi officers, collaborators, civilians) consistent with the alleged lie, which would be IMPOSSIBLE. If even Stalin's propagandist masterminds couldn't suppress something as minor as the secret that their leader had stunted growth in his left arm, how on earth could anyone possibly hope to pull off a fake Holocaust and fool everyone for so long?

Therefore, we have more direct evidence than simply the word of historians. It happened only 50 years ago, so it's not like the Holocaust is some ancient enigma shrouded in mystery.

The Catholic Church as most people refer to it or "The Church" as it refers to itself has apostolic succession back to St Peter himself, and thus to Christ.

...and this is where it gets less clear. Other denominations claim that they are the "true" Church because they split off from the Catholic Church, which allegedly goes back to Peter. Therefore any group who believes that they are practicing the true word of Christ (eg, EVERY SINGLE CHRISTIAN GROUP ON THE PLANET) can claim Apostolic Succession, even if it means invoking a "spiritual" succession.

Also, even if the Church did have direct lineage back to Saint Peter, that still wouldn't change the fact that the gospels could still be false in the first place. The Church is a group of mortal individuals taking up the banner of those before them, not some timeless immortal paradigm.

History is difficult to manipulate because so many different people record it. If a person or country decides to revise history, it will contradict all the other evidence and thus be harder to pass off as genuine.

Religious scripture, however, is much easier to manipulate because originally it was in the hands of only a few people. And the events that the scripture claims are true (such as miracles) are almost impossible to verify historically.

Also, many early Christian gospels were discovered to be outright frauds. Who is to say that some of the more believable frauds didn't worm their way into the Christian canon?


Edited by The Zebu (10/07/08 05:32 PM)
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#12325 - 10/07/08 06:45 PM Re: The Satanic Bible` [Re: Diavolo]
lux Offline
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"Why do you so easily accept the biblic truth about christianity?"

There are a lot of factors, i believe in the philosophy, i understand the importance of the concept of a God in keeping Christianity a viable social ideal as opposed to its nearest philosophy that really couldnt sustain a "government as God" ideal...i.e Communism. The fact that the Catholic Church is my family and I would stick by it even if it were all lies. Hope for eternal life, a spiritual "6th" sense within, spiritual experiences, seeing what appears to me to be a common designer in creation...i.e all living creatures to an extent share some DNA simularities.

“The oldest scriptures date a couple of hundreds years after Jesus supposed to die and a lot of the writing is probably never written by the ones considered as the authors”

The oldest scriptures were wrote 1500 years of years before Christ (book of job).

The oldest book in the NT is the Epistle of James completed circa AD45 only 12 years after the ressurection of JC in AD33, the youngest book in the NT was wrote by the apostle John, its called “revelations” this was completed in AD95 only 62years after the out pouring of the holy spirt in AD33.

“They are filled with errors indicating that the writers likely had no clue about the reality they were writing about. Considering them as a historic account on a certain period in time is the same as considering Harry Potter as a scientific account on the truth about magic.”

“errors” like what?

Archeologists (a certain type of historian) have used the bible to discover Sodom and gommorah and have determined that a great flood did occur in that part of the world around the same time noah is recorded .

“if you consider the bible as the true word of god, you can't pick what you like, you either embrace it as a whole or question everything in it”

Something can be true without being factual, fact is only an earthly understanding of truth but truth is something beyond fact in that not every truth can be determined by fact. Biblical truth pertains to something beyond ourselves our world our universe, “fact” can not prove such things. Now it is easy to say Jesus literally existed, but can we say the same about adam and eve, considering the scientific pressure regarding evolution ( I do not oppose evolution, I think it only shows how creative god is) but in the genesis account of Adam and eve we hear that God made Adam (the forefather of all humans) from the dust of the earth… i.e he was made in a natural process through supernatural will. Biblical Truth is not always litteral.


“First of all, pictures from that time can't be fake. Just for the reason there was no photoshop in that time.”

No of course not, how naïve of me.

“I also don't believe the germans paid millions of people to lie”

I am not saying they did, I am saying it is a possibility and what would the Germans have to gain by paying people to lie?

How about the Americans, British, Jews what would they gain.

But for a group of people who supposedly should not accept anything as absolute fact (I use fact instead of truth, since you all seem to equate the two, since your confined to reality) because accepting one falsehood leads to an ever increasing acceptance of falsehood based on that one absolute fact.

Do you really know that the holocaust happened?

“don't know about you, but I have held several bibles and I always found some things had changed. A bible written in 1940 is totally different then a bible from 1970 and on his turn totally different from a new bible. Don't get me wrong, most stories stay the same. But it is just those lines most christians use who change a bit. Just to stay "modern" and to convince people they are the real deal.“

If your picking up protestant/state run churches bibles I am not supprised, the King James Version is so perverse I would recommend it to you lot as your bible. You have to remember the protestant churches were setup to destroy Catholicism, and most states today want Christianity destroyed. The catholic bible has not changed it retains around 98% integrity of the original greek since they all need vatican approval before going to print. but obviously some word play is lost from the original greek, often times yes, different words appear in different time periods but convey the same meaning. For example “thou shalt not murder” becomes today “you shall not murder”

“Monks manually copied most books during some ages and it is known from some books (Josephus, The Antiquities of the Jews) that someone added desired passages in it.”

Yes one particularly famous monk did and a few words “faith alone” and he also removed whole chapters and books, he was a German Monk, called Martin Luther he was kicked out of the church, he nailed what is refered to his “95 Thesis” to the door of the church and thus began the reformation. The printing press and not the monks can be blamed for the many variations of the bible today, but take a fools advice, if you want a one that is at least 95 -98% accurate to the original then go for a catholic approved bible, such as the New Jeruselem bible.

“Not all testaments are included in the bible.”

Are you on about different goseples, perhaps the shepherd of hermes, the apocalypse of our lady, things like that?

“fascism was against kapitalism and communism. These 2 political ideas were a good way for them to get much power and money. Fascism wasn't”

Fascism was defeated and the cold war between communism and capitalism began, the Eastern European “Jews” (not Hebrews) got rich, the whole world is under there manipulation, what better way to protect yourself than to frighten the world to speak out against the “jews” for fear of being tarred with the same brush as Hitler.. motive enough to fabricate a holocaust?

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#12327 - 10/07/08 07:03 PM Re: The Satanic Bible` [Re: lux]
lux Offline
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"...and this is where it gets less clear. Other denominations claim that they are the "true" Church because they split off from the Catholic Church, which allegedly goes back to Peter. Therefore any group who believes that they are practicing the true word of Christ (eg, EVERY SINGLE CHRISTIAN GROUP ON THE PLANET) can claim Apostolic Succession, even if it means invoking a "spiritual" succession."

Ah but you see, they are still part of the Catholic Church all be it dysfunctionally but when they speak in accordance with the teaching of the (catholic) Chruch then they do speak for the "true" church. But there are no protestant churches who's succesion has remained because of excomunication the apostolic succesion ends.

"Also, even if the Church did have direct lineage back to Saint Peter, that still wouldn't change the fact that the gospels could still be false in the first place. The Church is a group of mortal individuals taking up the banner of those before them, not some timeless immortal paradigm."

Yes of course, no argument from me, often i have sat and considered if these "men" were just some hoodwinkers, but i dont think men would suffer and get executed like what they did for a Scam.

Now I come to the conclusion that these men perhaps even Jesus really believed in the philosophy and realised the importance of the divine element or that they believed in both in the philosophy and in Jesus being the son of God.


Also, many early Christian gospels were discovered to be outright frauds. Who is to say that some of the more believable frauds didn't worm their way into the Christian canon?"

Frauds, you mean the gnostic gosples, what is to say they are not the real ones?

The Catholic Church that is what is to say

I am not what is known as a "bible believing" Christian, that is i do not hold the bible up as my single rule of faith, the bible by itself is nothing more than a bunch of writings, my rule of faith is in the bible but only because it is verified by those who wrote and determined the books there in..i.e the Church.

As St Augustine said... i would put no faith in the Gospels if not for the Authority of the Catholic Church.

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#12330 - 10/07/08 07:30 PM Re: The Satanic Bible` [Re: lux]
The Zebu Offline
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So... you have faith in the gospels because of the authority of the church, and you get your faith in the authority of the church from the gospels... isn't that a bit circular?

Yes of course, no argument from me, often i have sat and considered if these "men" were just some hoodwinkers, but i dont think men would suffer and get executed like what they did for a Scam.

I don't think that the founders of Christianity were outright con-men... they were obviously very devoted to their beliefs, even if I think those beliefs were misplaced. Look at the zeal behind Islam, for example.

As for the Gnostic Gospels, I was not specifically referring to them. Gnostics were mostly not concerned over whether or not their texts were "genuine" or not; it was the philosophy behind them that mattered. Gnosticism was drawn largely from abstraction, and was indeed more of a philosophical movement than an actual "religion". And the Gnostic gospels were not so much fraudulent as they were heretical- they went against Catholic dogma, which was the main reason many early church fathers rejected them. I was referring to lesser-known works that had things like after-the-fact prophecies and falsified authorships.

Also, there is also no imperative that it is all divinely inspired. Most of the gospels, to me, are purely philosophical discourse (or ravings of a madman, if you want to include Revelations)


As St Augustine said... i would put no faith in the Gospels if not for the Authority of the Catholic Church.
...(and earlier)
The fact that the Catholic Church is my family and I would stick by it even if it were all lies.

lolwut




Edited by The Zebu (10/07/08 07:38 PM)
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#12350 - 10/08/08 03:00 AM Re: The Satanic Bible` [Re: lux]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
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 Quote:
There are a lot of factors, i believe in the philosophy, i understand the importance of the concept of a God in keeping Christianity a viable social ideal as opposed to its nearest philosophy that really couldnt sustain a "government as God" ideal...i.e Communism. The fact that the Catholic Church is my family and I would stick by it even if it were all lies. Hope for eternal life, a spiritual "6th" sense within, spiritual experiences, seeing what appears to me to be a common designer in creation...i.e all living creatures to an extent share some DNA simularities.


So tell me, what are you doing here then? If you stick to it no matter what, you aren't exactly debating your religion are you? Seems you open up yourself only to debate the wrongs of others. Is all this just to affirm you are right or is there some faint hope of helping anyone of us on the right path?

Either way, I drop replying, it's not worth the time pointing out the errors, I can better try to teach a monkey play the piano.

D.

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#12359 - 10/08/08 11:05 AM Re: The Satanic Bible` [Re: Diavolo]
The Zebu Offline
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Also, I must say that it's dangerous to have unwavering faith in the sanctity of something, especially if it means your belief hinges on a supernatural pretense. That's the way people's faith becomes empty, yet still claim to be faithful because they refuse to take that extra step and rid themselves of the useless shell they pretend is their religion. If you are truly faithful, then your beliefs should correlate with your life and reality.

Look at LaVey. A flawed, imperfect man who started a flawed, imperfect organization. But we still find truth in many of his words because they resonate with our sense of reality, and we find meaning by seeing our lives through Satanic eyes.

The religious meaning of Christianity, however, hinges almost entirely on whether or not Jesus was divine.


Edited by The Zebu (10/08/08 11:07 AM)
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#12371 - 10/08/08 03:10 PM Re: The Satanic Bible` [Re: Diavolo]
Dimitri Offline
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 Quote:
But for a group of people who supposedly should not accept anything as absolute fact (I use fact instead of truth, since you all seem to equate the two, since your confined to reality) because accepting one falsehood leads to an ever increasing acceptance of falsehood based on that one absolute fact.


Just like religion. It starts with something that happens in nature. People tell a lie about it and to gain profit they make more stories or lies. And at the end people start studying the lies and claim it for truth even tough they can't proof their right and say we are wrong and we shouldn't be looking for evidence but just "believe". And VOILA we got a freshly new religion. Seriously I hope you are kidding... 'cause i'm quite laughing out loud here with so much ignorance...

 Quote:

Do you really know that the holocaust happened?

Let me see... there are visual proofs, they found blood from executions wich dated back from the holocaust of several thousands of people,.. my grandmother tells about it, grandfather, greatgrandmother, history books, official files,...
So yeah, I really know it happened, I'm as sure as you believe in your invisible man up there \:\)

 Quote:
If your picking up protestant/state run churches bibles I am not supprised, the King James Version is so perverse I would recommend it to you lot as your bible. You have to remember the protestant churches were setup to destroy Catholicism, and most states today want Christianity destroyed. The catholic bible has not changed it retains around 98% integrity of the original greek since they all need vatican approval before going to print. but obviously some word play is lost from the original greek, often times yes, different words appear in different time periods but convey the same meaning. For example “thou shalt not murder” becomes today “you shall not murder”

I'm quite sure they were catholic bibles. Up here in Belgium there aren't much of protestants. They live more to the north. And I think it is a bit naive to say most states want christianity destroyed. As far as I'm concerend they are destroying themselves the last couple of 100 years.


Edited by Dimitri (10/08/08 03:15 PM)
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#12922 - 10/20/08 04:17 AM Re: The Satanic Bible` [Re: lux]
bas Offline
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Registered: 10/18/08
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Read La Veys bible a few years ago & Rites of Lucifer. Book of the dead (am hru em perth) a.s.o. could you suggest any hardcore black magic books for a swedish brother of the path? Respeto: bas
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#12933 - 10/20/08 01:21 PM Re: The Satanic Bible` [Re: lux]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
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I didn't become a member of this site to hear any goddamn sermons about jebus, yes jebus. Your mind is obviously a little to feeble to grasp the concept of Satanism. My advice: GTFO
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#12935 - 10/20/08 01:32 PM Re: The Satanic Bible` [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
Nemesis Offline
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This thread was started by Lux over 3 weeks ago, and he hasn't been back since. Your sentiment is appreciated, but comes too late ;\)
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#12936 - 10/20/08 01:44 PM Re: The Satanic Bible` [Re: Nemesis]
DistroyA Offline
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Yeah, I kinda noticed there was little activity from our Luxxy. Probably couldn't handle the fact that we rejected his Christian blithering and snuffed him out for what his true intentions were; to preach and convert us all.
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#12937 - 10/20/08 02:00 PM Re: The Satanic Bible` [Re: DistroyA]
Nemesis Offline
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But damn, he sure was fun to toy with! I'm sure it won't take long for another tasty wabbit to hop along and give us the same line of BS that Lux did.
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#12939 - 10/20/08 02:14 PM Re: The Satanic Bible` [Re: Nemesis]
Dimitri Offline
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Is luxxy gone?
That's sad, I just began to taste the sweet blood of christianity.
By the way; I'm not very good with internet slang but what is BS?
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#12940 - 10/20/08 02:18 PM Re: The Satanic Bible` [Re: Dimitri]
BloodHorn Offline
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BS= Bull Shit man.
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#12953 - 10/20/08 05:28 PM Re: The Satanic Bible` [Re: BloodHorn]
blsk Offline
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Likewise Nemesis \:\( I wasn't quite done fuckin' with him. It was fun while it lasted. We even tried to have a go at it through p.m. Oh well, maybe next time. "Run rabbit, RUN RABBIT!"
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#12969 - 10/20/08 08:33 PM Re: The Satanic Bible` [Re: Nemesis]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
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Well it's too bad that person isn't around to see that, but at the same time it is refreshing to there is one less idiot hanging around. I suspect it won't be too long before another one comes in here with the intention of "saving" us. I'll entertain an intelligent theological debate now and again to sate my depravity, but for the most part I come across these self-righteous jebus jumpers who couldn't have an intelligent conversation with a bowl of jello. I realize that doesn't make any sense, but I do like jello.

Edited by 6Satan6Archist6 (10/20/08 08:34 PM)
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#13580 - 10/28/08 02:05 PM Re: The Satanic Bible` [Re: blsk]
AnOpenHand Offline
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Registered: 09/30/08
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Loc: England
Lux why are you here? It seems a little shitty to me to seek out a satanic community and preach catholic crap. Not everybody here excepts the Satanic Bible as gospel (unlike the bible) Do you see any wars being fought over the TBS? If anybody in fact? We're not lost sheep, I'll prop up the bar in hell with Jim Morrison and Oliver Reed anyday.
Live the life you have you ungrateful bastards before you start worrying about the dubious unproven next life.
I don't know apart from tradional head butting the conversation you offers going nowhere. I respect you wanting to defend your faith but as it was said above by some sane and rational human being who here dissed it?
You've come to a satanic community to argue your faith. GET REAL you're either a fluffy attention seeker here to waste our time an energy making us back track on the fact that WE DON'T HAVE TO EXPLAIN OUR BELIEFS TO YOU or any other dogma toting thrill seeking soul saving demented avenger that may blow through here. Why the need to explain yours?
I may be speaking out of turn here but surely this is a chronic waste of our time, ok it serves to affirm our own beliefs but in one of the worst ways.
I don't know who us is but I don't think you know who you're talking to. You'll pretty much find alot of intelligent well balanced people here who you could have many fruitful debates with, and as someone else said above pretty much everyone here has rejected christianity for their own well thought about reasons.
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#13581 - 10/28/08 02:10 PM Re: The Satanic Bible` [Re: AnOpenHand]
AnOpenHand Offline
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Registered: 09/30/08
Posts: 32
Loc: England
LOLLOLOLOLOL oops I was reading through the thread nice and patient till I couldn't take it anymore and skipped to the bottom...
Oh well better late then never ahy?
It's hard not to be infected by the blood lust these ingrates provoke. But I'm pretty sure if I drank his blood (metaphorically) it would curdle my Baileys!
Damn it I would have loved to poke him in the eye!
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#13588 - 10/28/08 06:43 PM Re: The Satanic Bible` [Re: AnOpenHand]
The Zebu Offline
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Registered: 08/08/08
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Loc: Orlando, FL
Overall, most of us have thoroughly seen and read the case for Christianity, and we just don't buy it. Period. Enough with the "they hear but do not understand" bullshit. I understand Abrahamic religion quite well- moreso than most of its professed adherents- and I still disagree with it at a fundamental philosophical and rational level. Christianity is not above criticism.

That said, I think this thread is well overdue for a good LOCK. The title says "The Satanic Bible" but it's derailed into a disproportionate case for Christianity vs. Satanism and spiraled off into a giant load of poopy. And not the good kind of poopy either.
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#13594 - 10/28/08 09:17 PM Re: The Satanic Bible` [Re: The Zebu]
Nemesis Offline
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Registered: 09/01/07
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Loc: US
I had actually forgotten all about this thread that Lux started, figuring since he was gone, it wouldn't come back. I had locked the other one he started that went on for far too long. I'll do the same with this one since nothing productive is being discussed.

Thanks for reminding me, Zebu.
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