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#17672 - 01/06/09 01:52 AM Re: Father Of the Year! [Re: Diavolo]
daevid777 Offline
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Registered: 08/30/07
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 Quote:
I wholeheartedly believe in the existence of a, (naturally somewhat vague), collective ethos amongst humans.


Good way to say it, and I agree, but we are then again on this delicate balance between the "Ethics and Morality" thread, which may or may not be here... my memory evades me on which "Satanistic Incarnation" of this site still exists, forgive my ignorance - it's hard to keep track, damnit.

Otherwise, I know so-called "devious acts on 'society'" exist, and I think they will always "be", and have always been - but if what I'm getting from Diavolo is an absence of said "Societal rules" - then there is much more unexplored territory. Perhaps hard to grasp, but worthy of speculation, for "speculation's" sake.
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#17710 - 01/06/09 09:05 PM Re: Father Of the Year! [Re: daevid777]
Dan_Dread Offline
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I once made a post detailing how I think a sort of 'universal' (within the context of human beings) morality could and does exist.

HERE
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#17747 - 01/07/09 12:41 AM Re: Father Of the Year! [Re: Dan_Dread]
daevid777 Offline
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Right on Dan, I remember reading your thread (I'm not that out of it!), but I do think the one I was referring to was on an older version of this place... now gone the way of the Dodo.

Not that, from what I remember, it was much different than what you were talking about.



Edited by daevid777 (01/07/09 12:42 AM)
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#25258 - 06/03/09 12:24 AM Re: Father Of the Year! [Re: Nemesis]
napalm Offline
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Riddle me this?er something!Whats black and white and flame all over?mih hsamhs mih,hsams.Let me see......................................................
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#25259 - 06/03/09 12:36 AM Re: Father Of the Year! [Re: napalm]
spiderbreeder Offline
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Registered: 11/29/08
Posts: 300
Loc: Sydney,Australia
Have you been dipping into the stash very recently Napalm, like about two seconds before you "replied" to this Topic?

Or did you really mean to post this in the Joke thread?

Please elaborate?
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#29040 - 08/29/09 12:06 PM Re: Father Of the Year! [Re: Diavolo]
Master Magick Offline
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Registered: 01/06/09
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 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
But that was exactly the point: everything is natural.
Protecting babies or ripping them apart; none of them is unnatural even when in a society we tend to be forced to embrace the unnatural aspect of killing them.

I don't think we do have as much choice as people assume we have. If you have the choice between oranges and apples but don't like apples, how much choice do you really have?
It's the same for sexual deviants; if you brain is wired in such a manner that you prefer young girls and your pleasure center finds much fun in raping them, well, you're pretty much fucked then. You don't have a choice to begin with. Sure, you might act or not act upon it but you're still a sexual deviant, and for us who think that following ones own will is one of the highest goods, things get suddenly a bit difficult. So, what is one to do? Play a role and submit to societal demands or be what one is and pay the price if needed?

Yes we do art and we do music and we do spirituality but at the same time we kill for an i-pod, rape for pleasure and mass murder for ideas. So what is human ethos else but behaving under a rule of thumb?

D.


Come on, it's time to admit it. Being a predator or a predatory creature does not make you a chaotic nutbag mindless sack of sh!t.

Predators do not have to be predatory without law, reason or morality. If you are truly deviant (and not just a societal deviant) then you are a deviant human being in total. Not just a sexual deviant. If someone is single-mindedly wired to rape and focused unerringly on that, then they are not just a sexual deviant but a deviant as a human being. That individual needs to be removed from the herd.

Many people with 'vanilla' sexual lives, Satanists included might classify me and people with my sexual appetite deviants. Do I break any laws? Harm anyone? Involve myself in nonconsensual activities? No, but even with the "mainstreaming" of BDSM and fetish costumes and lifestyles in pop culture the label would still remain.

I get the feeling you are asking Why, just to ask Why and that you already know this stuff to be true. Unless of course you yourself are a rapist or child molestor. The real 'nature' of it is that we Human beings are the most evolved animals on Earth, (though most of us never really show it) and in our animal kingdom things work a certain way because we choose them to be so. Not because we're a lion and we're hungry, we've gotten past that Quest for Fire stage ;\) The apples and oranges example doesn't work, because if I like oranges but only apples are available, I will go buy some oranges or move to Florida and plant a fucking orange tree.

Everything is not natural. Everything may be possible, but it sure ain't natural. A person can convince themselves that it's natural, but that doesn't make it so.

 Originally Posted By: Woland
Embracing the beast does not equal succumbing to bestiality.


Back on topic: On the guy who choked the psycho rapist to death. Major props to Pops! Choke hold for the win \:\)



Edited by Master Magick (08/29/09 12:11 PM)
Edit Reason: added quotes
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#78011 - 07/13/13 08:29 AM Re: Father Of the Year! [Re: Dan_Dread]
SIN3 Offline
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Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 6786
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 Quote:
Satanism is about embracing our humanity, in it's totality...right? Giving voice and expression to all things animal and more specifically human animal. Part of that is embracing our protective and empathetic nature towards women and children. (as long as it does not cross wires with a more personal interest)


Your own children, fine. What about other people's children? If we are to embrace the totality of our humanity, why are there so few people that empathize with the raper/molester? If we took a trot down memory lane, perhaps we would find that the perp was molested/raped himself. No sympathy for the Devil's Humanity?

I suppose, it's a two-fold analysis. If you're an outsider of the situation, you judge the act then the person committing the act.

What if you were dead-smack in it? As noted from previous posts on this thread, this touches a very delicate spot in the psyche. To those adults that have some kind of molestation/rape in their past, they are attached to those emotional limitations: "I can not accept this." "I will not accept this." "This is my story." "This is who I am.", just some examples.

It doesn't mean that a person has to waive the flag of rape/molestation as something honorable, however there's a pathology there and it's often disregarded completely in favor of demonizing villains.

If a child is systematically molested to the point where it becomes normalized, as they grow and mature in a society where this is a shame, and the shaming is a moral platitude, how can that child break-free of their chains?

Then there's the eras to consider. Times when even speaking of such things was a moral taboo, that it becomes that dirty little secret one keeps hidden, it shapes their impulses. The serpent coiled in the bowels of their humanity.


It would be like riding on the back of an alligator across the river to then act shocked when it snaps its jaw and takes you for a death roll.

Some are so emotionally attached that it would seem like a logical conclusion to just start killing off kids that were raped/molested...Just in case.

We protect our own, but there's also an apathy displayed towards children because of another pathology hidden deep within. You hear countless stories of children that were molested by one parent while the other turned a blind eye to it (knowing it was going on the whole time), in favor of a romanticized ideal that the love they have for their partner is far more important than protecting your off-spring from misdeeds.

The Father in the story acted accordingly to protect his child but what about those parents that do nothing at all, and let it go on for years? In that case, which is worse? The molester or the enabler?

Some parents form no real emotional bond with their children and thus they become 'other'.

Thoughts?


Edited by SIN3 (07/13/13 08:30 AM)
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#78014 - 07/13/13 09:29 AM Re: Father Of the Year! [Re: SIN3]
Azrael999 Offline
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Beautifully elaborated, and I can tell that you know what you are talking about. It's the same type of studies and understanding about children that being abused left unnoticed begin to turn. Without therapy some sort of support system or reassurance that whatever happened to them in their youth, their understanding about the reason behind whatever traumatic event that happened to them wasn't their fault. That the blame is not on them but the predator. Putting blame on the responsible not the (psychic vampire) victim. These being that embrace their inner beast, I can't use that expression on this topic exactly, it's different. The (Social Cancer) or just moral degenerates of society may not even understand their sickness. Just the same that's when society has to deicide how to deal with these people.
Dig up the weeds, cast down to a systems moral code of ethical judgement that will help alleviate the victim and the families hardships.
When left untreated the victim has the potential capacity to become the predator, in turn falling victim to a societies lack of empathy. In their mind they may find themselves repeating the traumatic event, reliving the event in their own minds. "Hurt people, Hurt people," does that make sense.
Apathy by society to the victim will just cause more pain. Sweeping it under the rug does nothing more than prolong and makes the abuse worse. Power through survival of the self, and if you can't get proper treatment for these hardships that weigh you down invest some time into research, psychiatry, sociology to help understand why these things happened and find a support system. Survival through power of the self. Create yourself, you are your master isn't that what Satanism thrives to hold sacred by.....If your reading this I hope that it will help you if you were in a situation like that. Your life isn't over. Else the predator already won....
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#78016 - 07/13/13 02:30 PM Re: Father Of the Year! [Re: Azrael999]
SIN3 Offline
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Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 6786
Loc: Virginia
 Quote:
It's the same type of studies and understanding about children that being abused left unnoticed begin to turn.


Which studies? Do you have a citation you are willing to share?

Culturally speaking, what constitutes rape/pedophilia varies from culture to culture, and time-period to time-period.

I covered the Documentary Are all men pedophiles? on my podcast a few months ago. The feedback has been up and down the scale. I've even been called a pedophile for simply discussing it and exploring the topic.

I think, people imagine a completely violent act in all cases, when in reality, it may not be violent at all. Child-marriages for example, are often arranged by the child's parents.

Marriage is a way to dowery a child to lessen the burden to the family and has been in practice for thousands of years. The child is typically considered capital, and plotting ensues from birth. The marriage is typically arranged for female children when they approach menstruation for child bearing.

Age of consent laws have changed dramatically in the U.S. and its typically to protect children from exploitation and abuse. Though, statutory rape is often exercised as a way to prevent grooming, and children getting in over their heads. It's often called 'Daddy's Law'. i.e. Dad utilized the law to prevent his daughter from running off with an older man.

It's not restricted to female gender, it applies to males as well. There was a time when it was thought that male children could not be molested by female parents. Some of the more High-profile criminal cases involve student/teacher relationships. If you remember the Pamela Smart case, sex was thought to be the weapon of choice to manipulate a young man into killing her husband.

Back to the O.P. ...

As far as a perp breaking in for the purpose of committing a crime, chances are he stalked the girl for a while before deciding to commit the deed. The pre-meditation of stalking is telling of the man's impulses.

These cases are worthy of close-examination, though the filtering through the field of Psychology can be problematic. Subject profiling has become a diabolic device unto itself.


Edited by SIN3 (07/13/13 02:32 PM)
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#78017 - 07/13/13 03:33 PM Re: Father Of the Year! [Re: Diavolo]
SIN3 Offline
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Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 6786
Loc: Virginia
 Quote:
And Dan, empathy? All nice and well, but aren't we on the same track as being good? After all, who's level of empathy is the correct one? Will we draw a line too, to divide the good and bad, sinners and saints?



I think that empathy is often nurtured as a carrier for moral platitudes. For example, one can be considered immoral for feeling empathy towards the 'wrong' person. Often times, it's just identification and attachment issue, nothing more, nothing less. Or else, why don't people feel the same exact empathy for animals? There's a small inkling of it with the domesticated types but I think its because it conveys a human quality in them. Man and his dog, Man's best friend, etc. If it were purely banal instinct, there appears to be a design component beyond survival (Fight/Flight).

Instead, I would prefer to understand the nature of the modeling, to the best of my ability, and leave room for understanding my own preferences. When the impulse rises, I'm aware of it, even while it's being played out however what prevents me from playing it through?

A recent example:
I was sitting in my bedroom one afternoon and out of the corner of my eye I saw a Feral Cat nab an infant Rabbit. I walked out to the yard to investigate the incident further. The moment the Cat saw me it tucked tail and ran off. It left behind the mangled Rabbit, barely alive but it was still alive. I watched as it struggled for its last few breaths and finally died. I felt empathy for it but I also felt equal empathy for the Cat. I had just robbed it of a decent meal. I left the Rabbit where it laid, and watched out my window to see if the Cat would return. It didn't. I wondered if it recognized me as a larger predator, or perhaps it was accustomed to Humans chasing it off, who can say? I found the reaction to the whole scenario fascinating. What compelled me to get up and go have a look? Was it curiosity or did I unconsciously want to chase off the Cat? Did I think it would save the Rabbit from imminent death and if so, then what? Was I watching for the Cat secretly hoping it would enjoy its meal thereby excusing me for the interruption? Why didn't I just turn around and go back to what I was doing without a second thought?


One can identify with the 'victim' as the target of an injustice, or the 'predator' for having allowed his compulsions to take down a 'gazelle'.

If a strong person recognizes a weakness, is it a weak-point in the framework to kick down or a place that could use some reinforcement? In other words, why do we care?

In either case, the observer is busy indentifying and projecting human values onto animals of every sort. We identify with other human beings but we are also in the habit of identifying other animals that seem to have human traits. For any insect lovers out there, the same applies. If we were naturally apathetic, we wouldn't care either way. There would be no vectors for attachment.

A victim is more likely to identify with another victim and the perpetrator is more likely to identify with another perp. There's lots of gray areas too, as in the case where a stronger person identifies with their sense of honor and then acts to protect the weak. Other examples are the cases of Stockholm syndrome where a victim identifies with his capture, or Bystander Syndrome when people don't act when its believed that they should.
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#78019 - 07/13/13 04:05 PM Re: Father Of the Year! [Re: SIN3]
Le Deluge Offline
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Registered: 08/05/12
Posts: 1790
 Originally Posted By: SIN3
I think that empathy is often nurtured as a carrier for moral platitudes. For example, one can be considered immoral for feeling empathy towards the 'wrong' person. Often times, it's just identification and attachment issue, nothing more, nothing less. Or else, why don't people feel the same exact empathy for animals? There's a small inkling of it with the domesticated types but I think its because it conveys a human quality in them. Man and his dog, Man's best friend, etc. If it were purely banal instinct, there appears to be a design component beyond survival (Fight/Flight).


Empathy can be a precursor to sympathy or compassion. Yet, it often is neither. One also has to break it up into cognitive and emotional empathy. I view it as just having the capacity to recognize thoughts or emotions in other people (to a reasonable degree). I don't know that I would interpret it in terms of right or wrong people. It is really just a sensory precept I either have or lack when presented a given situation.

Animals bring forth an interesting conundrum. I'm definitely a lover of my companion animals. There is no question that the bond overrides the differences in consciousness/cognition. There is definitely an attachment. At the same time, I've never conflated this into a rule of general application. I will generally prefer non-human animals, but some will also serve as nourishment.

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#78020 - 07/13/13 04:36 PM Re: Father Of the Year! [Re: Le Deluge]
SIN3 Offline
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To clarify, I was using 'wrong person' in the context of identifying with either victim or predator.

Isn't cognitive the path to emotional?

The dissassociations usually come from the field of Psychology, which is why I stated in a previous comment it can be problematic as a filter.

See: Recent Studies

 Quote:
Recent evidence suggests that there are two possible systems for empathy: a basic emotional contagion system and a more advanced cognitive perspective-taking system. However, it is not clear whether these two systems are part of a single interacting empathy system or whether they are independent.
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#78021 - 07/13/13 04:42 PM Re: Father Of the Year! [Re: SIN3]
Le Deluge Offline
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I wouldn't view cognitive and emotional empathy as completely separate. I do believe there can be a variance in how one interprets sensory precepts. I would only see it as dissociative if they were truly mutually exclusive. I guess I would view it more as a spectrum (if that makes sense).

Noted on predator and victim. The real misfortune there is just the cycle of abuse. You could plug in either at a given point of time and render empathy, sympathy, or hatred depending on what role they play at a given point in the cycle.
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#78022 - 07/13/13 04:57 PM Re: Father Of the Year! [Re: Le Deluge]
SIN3 Offline
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Registered: 05/14/13
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Yes, that makes sense.

 Quote:
The real misfortune there is just the cycle of abuse. You could plug in either at a given point of time and render empathy, sympathy, or hatred depending on what role they play at a given point in the cycle.


Indeed. From a more personal stand-point, I have often been considered 'other', alien even because I am neither attached to past experiences, nor do they affect my ability to discern my own correlations from a subjective stand-point. I.e. identifying with victim/predator and gray areas. I often see things from all sides, like holding a crystal ball in my hand and turning it round and round to discern its nature.

I see a constant core in myself, and often take the stance that people don't change - events change. If I'm wrong about this (and I might be) this would mean that people are nothing more than byproducts of events.

So, in terms of those events, in the moment you are experiencing them, when they are over they are merely past events. At best, they are points of reference to analyze and perhaps chart where you've been but I'm not certain how much they define what we are or how much they really affect our empathy.

Would it then be a futile effort to change your core?

For example, it could be argued that I am strong-willed due to events but from my own vantage point I have 'always been' and events were just happenings where my will was best demonstrated vs. just some byproduct of. From the earliest age I can remember, that seems to remain constant. It begs to question why some are weak-willed and broken down by events. Is it their core or something else?

Comparatively, Sociopaths/Psychopaths are considered to have their levels of empathy affected by events, and often considered the absence of empathy in a specific context, i.e. lacking of compassion.

What do you think?
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#78024 - 07/13/13 05:19 PM Re: Father Of the Year! [Re: SIN3]
Le Deluge Offline
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Well, you certainly raise a good question. In terms of sociopaths, the evidence seems to be inconclusive. A sociopath is in a unique state. They would appear, on some level, to sense thoughts and emotions in others. Yet, they do not seem to have a quantifiable spectrum of emotion.

I believe a person has an essence. Yet, I believe a person is in a state of both being and becoming. I would be remiss to say I even knew if external events would "change" this essence. I would tend to view a person's core as dynamic as opposed to static. The essence itself is in motion. It doesn't change per se, but I view the human condition as "incomplete". Lacking a better term, I believe in self-development. This is a dangerous process. The second one goes against one's nature (true will if you favor Crowley), they fall into delusion.

A bit off-the-cuff here, but I do believe one forms a synthesis (or allows it to be formed for them). The latter, again, being dangerous for obvious reasons.


Edited by Le Deluge (07/13/13 05:21 PM)
Edit Reason: grammatical torture
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