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#119897 - 08/22/19 11:43 PM Reason For God
CanisMachina42 Offline
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Registered: 08/10/13
Posts: 1499
Loc: Ca
Why Deism Transforms Into Theism Using The Indigenous Civilizations of The America's.

Contrary to the titling this is not intended as some faggy dissertation.  I am sick of using shit from Europe. Even shit from Asia, well depending on how you look at that.

Something I said in another thread made me think about Indigenous North American tribes and why they differed from their southern brethren. 

Northern tribes like; Inuit, Navajo, whatever the totem pole ones are called, Cherokee, Iroquois, Algonquin, and the like all had beliefs centered around harmony with nature.  A shade of deism in which nature and all its animals and spirits are acting as the divine. One of balance of minimizing impact. Nature as god.

As you venture south the same people (essentially) formed great societies, complete with pantheons. Maya, Aztec, Inca, Toltec, like their northern ancestoral kin share remarkably similar, yet brutal (by current standards) beliefs of Animal spirits, and also cutting heads off of people for one reason or another.  The further into the desert you go the more about water that gets.

What about North vs South changes?

There is only one answer in my mind, amount of arable land/usable space and access to resources.

The working Idea here is:

Authoritative gods arise only when an area exceeds empathetic limitations (Dunbar's Number) and/or environmental obstacles or geography funnels migration towards limited resources.

In the south you have less grasslands or room for a sparse distribution.  You have a lot of jungle, less clear space, and a shit load more activity geologically.

Like how the first civilizations arose in the "cradle of civilization" because the savanna dried into the Sahara and Arabian Deserts. The need to be near water lead to all those civilizations around the; Tigres, Euphrates, and Nile river.  Arable land existed in a really really confined area. 

In response elaborate beliefs arise when things such as strangers become relevant. A self developed remedy of humans was to create pantheons, guidlines, or do what Hammurabi did. 

Likewise I see a similar, albeit far wetter thing happening in Central and South America. A different set of reasons like the jungle, along with how the sadistic geography of Central America funneled their migratory advance and gave the world first The Mayan civilization, then many others following suit as they spread towards South America.

** Also worth noting are the several tribes that resisted civilization, usually going into the most inhospitable parts of the rainforest.  Many remaining uncontacted to this day, and protected by law from ever being interfered with. 

The overall crux being, pre-colonial civilizations failed to form in North America because it wasn't necessary.

Another boring topic from myself.

Thoughts?

** Contextual Definition of civilization - Society structured around a disambiguous ideology and centralized point of population or capital.
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#119899 - 08/23/19 01:34 AM Re: Reason For God [Re: CanisMachina42]
CanisMachina42 Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/10/13
Posts: 1499
Loc: Ca
OCD-fuck-you-hour-timeout-corrections:

Attempt Two.

Why Deism Transforms Into Theism Using The Indigenous Civilizations of The Americas.

Contrary to the titling this is not intended as some faggy dissertation. I am sick of using shit from Europe. Even shit from Asia, well depending on how you look at that.

Something I said (in another thread) made me think about Indigenous North American tribes and why they differed from their southern brethren.

Northern tribes like; Inuit, Navajo, whatever the totem pole ones are called, Cherokee, Seminole, Iroquois, Algonquin, and the like all had beliefs centered around harmony with nature. A shade of deism in which nature and all its animals and spirits are acting as the divine. One of balance and minimizing impact. Nature as god.

As you venture south the same people (essentially) formed great societies, complete with pantheons. The Olmec, Maya, Aztec, Inca, Toltec, like their northern ancestoral kin, share remarkably similar, yet brutal (by current standards) beliefs of Animal spirits, and also cutting heads off of people for one reason or another. The further into the desert you go the more about water that gets.

What about North vs South changes?

There is only one answer in my mind, amount of arable land/usable space and access to resources.

The working Idea here is:

Authoritative gods arise when an area exceeds empathetic limitations (Dunbar's Number) and environmental obstacles and/or geography funnels migration towards limited resources.

In the south you have less grasslands or room for a sparse distribution. You have a lot of jungle, less clear space, and a shit load more activity geologically.

Like how the first civilizations arose in the "cradle of civilization" because the savanna dried into the Sahara and Arabian Deserts. The need to be near water led to all those civilizations around the Tigres, Euphrates, and Nile river. Arable land existed in a really really confined area.

In response elaborate beliefs arise when things such as strangers become relevant. A self developed remedy of humans was to create pantheons, guidlines, or do what Hammurabi did.

I see a similar, albeit far wetter thing happening in Central and South America. A different set of reasons like the jungle, along with how the sadistic geography of Central America funneled their migratory advance and gave the world first The Olmec, then The Mayan, and then many other civilizations following suit as they spread into South America.

** Also worth noting are the several tribes that resisted civilization, usually going into the most inhospitable parts of the rainforest. Many remaining uncontacted to this day, and protected by law from ever being interfered with.

The overall crux being, pre-colonial civilizations failed to form in North America because it wasn't necessary and empathetic limitations were never exceeded.

Thoughts?

** Contextual Definition of civilization - Society structured around a disambiguous ideology and centralized point of population or capital.
_________________________
32.6
-117.1
Sea level
11:56 PM July, 1st 2019
Wrote Signature

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#119911 - 08/23/19 12:17 PM Re: Reason For God [Re: CanisMachina42]
Kori Houghton Offline
member


Registered: 11/23/15
Posts: 169
Loc: East Coast USA
I don't think a real explanation for Deism -> Theism in the Americas is possible without considering religion in Asia, Europe, the South Pacific, and Africa. The comparison of Native American DNA with the genetics of peoples from other continents is just beginning. It's unlikely that travelers to the Americas brought only chickens and diseases with them. Ideas travel lightly, and don't need food and fresh water to survive an ocean crossing.


Concerning the differences between the Native American tribes in the North versus those to the South might have something to do with mobility. But you're leaving out the North American civilization centered around Cahokia, which wasn't located in a jungle or a desert, but left evidence of brutal human sacrifices. Traders from the Ozarks area got around. My dad found a quartz crystal (from the Arkansas area) just below ground level when he was planting the lawn around our new house in NJ in the early 60s. The land had not been previously developed.

It is possible that these people traded with cultures in Central America, but I don't think they borrowed rituals (or gods) from them. The connection I see with religious violence is urbanization, intensive agriculture, a largely plant-based diet, and foreign trade. It's inevitable that a large population committed to concentrated living in a limited area would encounter environmental issues: combinations of their own insupportable numbers and unusual weather events. Unlike a hunter/gatherer society that can relocate frequently over short distances, a city cannot. Survival seems to them, I think, less under human control. Even though the humans are the cause of the environment being out of balance.

To the west, The Puebloan cultures definitely had some contact with Central American cultures, but maintained more of a focus on a world in balance.

The true rain forest (jungle) -- as opposed to land in the Tropics -- is, in my opinion, kinda creepy. When we were visiting Palenque it seemed that as soon as the sun set, anything living outside was either eating or being eaten. And not in a quiet, unobtrusive, way. Not my kind of place! I can easily see a balanced world in that place being considered a violent one.

I think an important issue to consider is the nature of civilization.

If a culture must be urban and literate to be considered "civilized" that leaves out the builders of the European henges and ceremonial centers like Gobekli Tepe who left no writing and weren't urban plant eaters.

In my view, there are two kinds of religion: religions of the tribe (nonurban) and religions of the hive (urban). An urban setting is always out of balance with the natural world, and their deities tend to be criminals.
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#119930 - 08/24/19 12:16 AM Re: Reason For God [Re: Kori Houghton]
Phoenician Offline
member


Registered: 02/16/17
Posts: 132
Loc: CA
Shit, the troll made me use all my posts trolling.

Response with alternate jersey:

I had never even heard of that sacrifice happy culture until this morning. More amazed to learn it topped out at 40,000 in 1300 CE.

Still, to defend my idea, I feel it is possible for the meme to transit back North.

Reading about the culture, and their civilization, it seems like they saw Teotihuacan and decided to copy it, right down to the 21 year old females being sacrificed in great numbers. But that is just my speculation..

Another conclusion may be pyramids are to structures as the lever is to machines. A first step, not that amazing. Parallel thought.

To the deism/theism point, I put types of superstition into natural and unnatural categories.

Natural superstitions answer unknowns primarily and are passed on by oratory.  This, inferring the human mind is innately predisposed towards superstition to answer unknowns, or it simply was the best answer they could come up with. While not explicitly deism, these stories make up a collection of oral myths that support a deist mindset.

The beliefs remain rooted in harmony with surroundings over control over surroundings.

In the Pacific Northwest (among other places) you have the thunderbird myth.  A roaring sound from the sea or from the mountains we identify today as volcanism and megathrust earthquakes.   The story's aim was not to subjugate its followers.

Unnatural superstitions are control memes. Things written purposely to be authoritative dictates and guidlines.  A one true god by committee. Passed on by written word.

An example here may be Emperor Constantine cherry picking that upstart religion and streamlining it to better administer to The Roman Empire.  You see the same thing done centuries later by the Council of Trent. Even the Torah was written as a land grab by Akkadians who decided to change what they called themselves.  These superstitions are primarily "Lesser Black Magic". They have different origins and their uses are manipulative.  The superstitions and their application gets more authoritative  the more 'civilized' and populous things get.

In any case, thank you for the response.
 
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