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#12571 - 10/12/08 06:14 PM Re: Satanic ritual and different Satanic sects. [Re: Dan_Dread]
blsk Offline
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Registered: 09/22/08
Posts: 298
Loc: salem or
Bloodhorn that is a conclusion I have made a while ago and you are right. When people make ignorant comments regarding us I now simply smile and continue with what I am doing. You ever notice that when you mention Satanism you get no questions only comments? lol it's kinda funny.
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#12572 - 10/12/08 07:17 PM Re: Satanic ritual and different Satanic sects. [Re: blsk]
BloodHorn Offline
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Registered: 10/02/08
Posts: 131
Loc: Stockbridge Ga
Yes I have. And ignorant comments that in noway have to do with Satanism 9 out of 10 times. Its sad that people do not study something before they open there mouths.
Its funny when people tell me I am ignorant to the bible. Then I usually end up knowing more about it them they do. I was raised baptist. Some of the worst Christians there are. Not saying all Christians are bad. I have known a few that I liked, And we had a understanding that they do not push there belief on me, And I will return the respect. But I'm kinda rambling. Everyone has probably heard all this before.


Edited by BloodHorn (10/12/08 07:20 PM)
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#12815 - 10/18/08 04:49 AM Re: Satanic ritual and different Satanic sects. [Re: Dan_Dread]
Aleph Offline
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Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 36
Loc: Pennsylvania
Thank you for everyone’s input.

Obviously, there are different ideas of what a sect of a religion are, however I think we can all agree that a sect is a branch, or an offspring of a religion/faith. With this being said, it is also fair to say that every religion/faith carries its own seed of offspring towards a different idea, which wasn’t originally intended.

This is just human nature.

But what about traditional Satanists? Are there any left? I have a good idea of what you think of their beliefs, however, LaVey also talks about magic in a usable way.

This to me seems like a huge contradiction towards his disbelief in the supernatural.

What are your thoughts?

(I own and have read the Satanic Bible, but there are just some things I have a hard time understanding, and this is the reason of my inquery)
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#12822 - 10/18/08 12:05 PM Re: Satanic ritual and different Satanic sects. [Re: Aleph]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
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 Quote:

But what about traditional Satanists? Are there any left? I have a good idea of what you think of their beliefs, however, LaVey also talks about magic in a usable way.

This to me seems like a huge contradiction towards his disbelief in the supernatural.

Satanism is about pragmatism. Ritual magic is useful. People have an inherent desire for mysticism and religious trappings, as it has been for nigh on a million years of hominid evolution. We do ritual because it has real measurable benefits.

The problem is historically mysticism and religious trappings have been married to epistemology, which of course moves one in the opposite direction of truth and pragmatism. This leads most rational thinkers to completely disregard mysticism/religion.

Satanism is the first and to my knowledge ONLY religion that takes the useful religious trappings and applies them to a realistic and rational worldview. Too long the baby has been thrown out with the bathwater!
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#12831 - 10/18/08 07:37 PM Re: Satanic ritual and different Satanic sects. [Re: Dan_Dread]
blsk Offline
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Registered: 09/22/08
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Loc: salem or
We will continue to find that the supernatural is simply the natural not yet understood. The way native americans thought that taking your picture took your soul. Science is my only witchcraft. Knowledge, self-deification.
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#12836 - 10/18/08 08:30 PM Re: Satanic ritual and different Satanic sects. [Re: blsk]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3935
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 Quote:

We will continue to find that the supernatural is simply the natural not yet understood.

Even Einstein described human science as 'primitive and childlike' when compared to the reality of the universe. I would tend to agree.

People tend to feel like we are really 'advanced' as a species, like we are near the end of our progress or something. Personally I feel we are really not so far out of the caves yet when compared to our potential.
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#12840 - 10/18/08 08:42 PM Re: Satanic ritual and different Satanic sects. [Re: Dan_Dread]
blsk Offline
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Registered: 09/22/08
Posts: 298
Loc: salem or
The first man to pick up a stick for leverage or a rock to break something open no doubt though he was ahead of the game. I'm in no way saying we are advanced, but stating that what I believe to be true and effective can be proven as opposed to something like prayer or spells that fall within the laws of probability.
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#13834 - 11/04/08 12:38 AM Re: Satanic ritual and different Satanic sects. [Re: Dan_Dread]
Aleph Offline
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Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 36
Loc: Pennsylvania
First of all, I apologize for my absense.

[quote=Dan_Dread]
 Quote:
Satanism is about pragmatism. Ritual magic is useful. People have an inherent desire for mysticism and religious trappings, as it has been for nigh on a million years of hominid evolution. We do ritual because it has real measurable benefits.


So if the modern Satanists does not believe in a supernatural/paranormal world, than what does ritual exactly do? How is it useful?

I personally use ritual as a way of catablasism, so as you can, I am somewhat confused when you satae that it has "benefits".

Also, I noticed that no one has answered my question about traditional Sationists. Baically, are there any left?
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#13837 - 11/04/08 01:26 AM Re: Satanic ritual and different Satanic sects. [Re: Aleph]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
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I could explain to you why ritual is useful, in which context it is used by us, and what we hope to obtain from it;But I'm not going to.

Instead, I'm going to point you at the Satanic Bible and tell you to go do some research for yourself. Satanic ritual is defined quite well therein.

As for 'traditional satanists', I will assume you mean devil worshipers. My personal theory is that you have to be A:stupid or b:crazy to actually believe in a physical devil. The crazies are mostly in jail, so that just leaves the stupids, who because of their stupidity are usually just convinced of whatever comes along next into their field of view. Hence a transitory phase.
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#13839 - 11/04/08 04:34 AM Re: Satanic ritual and different Satanic sects. [Re: Dan_Dread]
Diavolo Offline
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I've been thinking about this a lot.
I'm known to be a rational bitch. I can't say I have been a very nice date for my traditional brothers in the past, I'm the type that fucks them before dinner and leaves them with the bill.

But ultimately, am I defending a 'philosophy' or 'values'?
Would I call someone that follows the same path as me, upholds the same values and strives for the same change or improvement, would I call such a person an idiot or crazy, simply because he sees his 'rolemodel' as an entity and I see it as something different.
And likewise, do I see another man that sees his rolemodel equal as mine but follows a completely different path and upholds different values, do I call such a person smart or intelligent?

D.

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#13840 - 11/04/08 07:27 AM Re: Satanic ritual and different Satanic sects. [Re: Dan_Dread]
Fabiano Offline
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Registered: 09/06/08
Posts: 374
It’s not the first time I see this kind of position. I’ve been on other esoteric & occult forums in the past and it’s always the same answer when esoteric or occult questions are addressed:
We’ll not feed-spoon you, do some research for yourself. .

On the other hand, when it comes to have non esoteric discussions, such as philosophical ones or debates on concrete aspect of life (I’m thinking about discussion held here on agnosticism, anarchism, altruism …) people are very long in providing a detailed and constructed argumentation. They’re providing lot of references to books, articles, web site, etc.

Why?

Isn’t there a desire to show how clever we’re, how better our personal positions are, how superior we’re, how our position is more logic than yours? A desire to “have the last word”?

And when it come to magic, isn’t there again a desire to be superior? To show that “I know things you’re don’t”. “I have the magic power and you don’t”. “I know the secrets of the Universe and you don’t”.
Anyone can says this, those who know and those who don’t. It’s then really a good trick for covering empty posturing ?

Saying “We do ritual because it has real measurable benefits” without backing it with any elements is like saying, praying has measurable benefits but providing no proof.

I consider both as ghafla.

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#13842 - 11/04/08 08:49 AM Re: Satanic ritual and different Satanic sects. [Re: Fabiano]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3935
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Diavolo,

These people are not 'the same' with one extra thing thrown in. Devil worshipers are completely different in every way than Satanists. They are actually much closer to <insert random theistic practice here>
Satanists are rationalists, and value the truth over all else. In doing so any Satanist worth his salt realizes faith isn't a real form of epistemology. Devil worship, on the other hand,as every other imaginary friend based belief system, relys on faith as the primary form of epistemology.Anyone who thinks they can just 'know' something because they 'feel' it is either stupid or crazy, yes.

Further, because of the 'evil' nature of this particular deity, and the fact that once you believe in a deity it logically follows that you must take action to appease said deity, these people are taking license to do all sorts of stupid shit in the name of 'the dark lord'.



Fabiano,

Well, it's very simple. This is a forum for Satanists. If you don't even understand the basics of Satanism, you probably shouldn't be here. By NOT spoon feeding Satanism to the to the ones that are too lazy to research a text that is linked by PDF to this very site, the person asking the question learns something concrete about Satanists.

So as this is a forum FOR Satanists rather than a pre-school to teach Satanism, the subject of Satanism stands apart here. What I mean is if this was a thread about Austrian economics and someone were to ask me some basic ideas stemming from said economic school, that would be different because people are not expected to already know the basics of Austrian economics here.

Now if someone who had already taken the time to read for themselves and shown they are actually worth the effort of trying to teach, and come here with a grasp of at least the basics, that would be different. If he had at least taken the time to fix all the typos in his post, maybe that would be different too.

But it isn't.
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#13847 - 11/04/08 11:38 AM Re: Satanic ritual and different Satanic sects. [Re: Dan_Dread]
Fabiano Offline
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Registered: 09/06/08
Posts: 374
Dan,


 Quote:
This is a forum for Satanists. If you don't even understand the basics of Satanism, you probably shouldn't be here.

But I’m here !

 Quote:
So as this is a forum FOR Satanists rather than a pre-school to teach Satanism

Who’re you for saying for whom this forum is and defining it ?
Sorry, but I prefer take advise from Admins on this :

 Originally Posted By: Xear
1. What Is The Satanic Community?

The Satanic Community is a message based forum that carries discussions on Satanic philosophy and other topics of interest to Satanists. The majority of members on this board are Modern Satanists of LaVeyan philosophy, though we do have a number of individuals with different beliefs. There are admitted atheists, traditionalist Satanists, and Wiccans, among others. We believe this allows a broader spectrum of ideas and debates. All we ask is to RESPECT the majority of the board as we are Satanists

If this forum is FOR Satanist, how Lux was admitted by the moderators?
Why one of us told him
“Well first, welcome. If you are here to learn about Satanism then you are in the right place.” knowing he was aXian ?

It was finaly banned for one line posting and lack of logic and preaching. But I think we were all ready to explain him what Satanism his about…




 Quote:
if this was a thread about Austrian economics and someone were to ask me some basic ideas stemming from said economic school, that would be different because people are not expected to already know the basics of Austrian economics here.

So what ? Many of us claim to be Satanist without doing any ritual. They cannot ask any question on this because they don’t have the sufficient basis and are supposed to know? But for the one that are not Satanists (thus not expected to already know about it) they can asks ?


 Quote:
Now if someone who had already taken the time to read for themselves and shown they are actually worth the effort of trying to teach, and come here with a grasp of at least the basics, that would be different. If he had at least taken the time to fix all the typos in his post, maybe that would be different too

I think Aleph actively partipated to the topic on Sigil. He seems to have already some basics in magic, no ?

Finally, I think you missed my main point. Whatever is your position on spoon-feeding, why is it so different for “philosophy” stuff (and don’t tell me Lux was not spoon-feeded about lots of Satanic philosophical points) and “magic” stuf?

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#13858 - 11/04/08 03:42 PM Re: Satanic ritual and different Satanic sects. [Re: Dan_Dread]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Dan,

I'm not going to continue debating about it here, it would lead to completely different things than this post is for but when I'm talking about traditionals, I'm not talking about them in general. I'm focusing on people that deliver the same message in another style. Not the loonies that think they can shoot laserbeams with their eyes and have long conversations with Lucy himself and need to feed upon pre-teen idiocy as a survival strategy. I'm talking about intelligent people that have an intelligent view upon things but have a rather different premise. There are degrees in everything, just like modern Satanism is infested by people with a rational premise that are just begging to be clubbed in order to relieve society from another biological crap factory.

Fabiano,

I'd not mind writing all my views upon ritual magick and such but it's fairly simple: it's not my thing. But I agree that people could or should expand upon it if they like. This is 101 and although most of us sigh when reading people needing the 101s, it can not be held against them for using it to relieve them from some sort of ignorance upon a subject. Outside this environment, it can be expected you actually know a thing or two about what you debate.

D.

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#13864 - 11/04/08 04:55 PM Re: Satanic ritual and different Satanic sects. [Re: Diavolo]
Fabiano Offline
member


Registered: 09/06/08
Posts: 374
I agree Diavolo,

I'm not obssessed by ritual an magic. I'm far beyond that "phase" during which the ego is attracted to a religion by the promises of "supernatural powers".
And yes, I sigh also when I see one of those teenagers looking here for "easy magical power" as they look for "easy money" in the street.

I prefer to dig in the philosophy, reading "The Prince" currently.

May be I'll focus later on magic. But it does not prevent me to stay curious and read what is posted here...
Just curious to see how magic fits in the Satanic philosophy, what are the views of the forum members on the subject...




Edited by Fabiano (11/04/08 04:56 PM)

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