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#12839 - 10/18/08 08:36 PM Seperation of Church and State
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
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I just wanted to say that I support neither Obama or Mccain. Both have said they will continue with the "pro-life" and "One Man, One Woman" type agendas. Both of these stem from Christian values and it is just a way for them to impose their stupid little fairy tale on the rest of us. That is just one reason why I would prefer it if both of them just died.....right now.
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#12841 - 10/18/08 10:17 PM Re: Seperation of Church and State [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
The Zebu Offline
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Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1640
Loc: Orlando, FL
It's fairly obvious that all politicians need to pander to Christian voters if they are expected to have any chance at all in elections.

Although last time I checked, Obama is pro-choice (insomuch as he supports Roe v. Wade), and supports in "civil unions" as he does not believe homosexuality is immoral (but is still reluctant to use the "M" word, as most politicians are.)

But then again he's endorsed openly anti-gay religious figures, which angered some people. This is just another instance of why politicians need to stay the FUCK away from public religious pandering. Yeah, making a heartfelt speech about how pious some minister standing next to him is will certainly win over Christian votes, but chances are that pastor he's endorsing turns out to be a backward-minded nutjob, and may backfire.
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#12842 - 10/18/08 10:48 PM Re: Seperation of Church and State [Re: The Zebu]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
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I agree that politicans do need to cut down on the religous pandering. The fact that he would do that just to try and win some votes is despicable. Of course, I shouldn't be surprised though, that's all politicians have ever done: sang to the popular tune at the time to win favor.
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#12872 - 10/19/08 02:28 PM Re: Seperation of Church and State [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
Phaethon Offline
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Registered: 08/01/08
Posts: 78
Politics is all a game. Since a majority of The Unites States is christian, that's who they apply to. I think it should be more up to the states when it comes to things like gay marriage and abortion, this way the bible belt states can be happy, and the rest of us can have fairness.

Imagine if all the satanists moved to a single state, how that would change their campaigns in that state?

Times like this I dream of a satanic country, or even just a rationally thinking one.
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We have the same face we have the same name.

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#12976 - 10/20/08 08:55 PM Re: Seperation of Church and State [Re: Phaethon]
The Zebu Offline
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Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1640
Loc: Orlando, FL
Funny... a while back I ran into some youtube video from some guy making a call for all Satanists to move to Salem to assemble as a prominent social and political voice. He was dressed like he was going to a shitty goth LARP and called himself the Grand King of Hell or some ridiculous bullshit, so I couldn't take him seriously, and I doubt few would.

But he did raise a valid point. What if we ever did assemble as a coherent demographic, even if it was just in a small city? The local politicians would have to keep the "Satanic vote" in mind... we would finally have an aboveground community, the average american would finally become aware of our presence, and of course it would scare the eschatological-minded christians shitless... Haha, it makes me feel warm and fuzzy inside to think about it.

Hey, I can have fantasies, right?
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#12980 - 10/20/08 09:07 PM Re: Seperation of Church and State [Re: The Zebu]
blsk Offline
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Registered: 09/22/08
Posts: 298
Loc: salem or
Oooooo, i've got butterflies! That would be the shit! The best part is those bible-thumpers would have to accept us and the politicians would have to cater to us to get the vote. Equal rights rule!
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#12981 - 10/20/08 09:12 PM Re: Seperation of Church and State [Re: blsk]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
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Ok heres my plan: We take over Israel. LMFAO
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#13010 - 10/20/08 11:26 PM Re: Seperation of Church and State [Re: The Zebu]
fakepropht Moderator Offline
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Registered: 08/29/07
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And after we kick out the psuedo satanists, the psychos, and those that don't belong, all 400 of us will be a "monster" threat. I think the Amish have a bigger voting bloc than us. In fact, last I checked a couple years back, the small town I grew up in in Idaho had a higher population than those officially calling themselves Satanist. And meeting the most basic criteria. I had fantasies too. Unfortunately, Britney Spears got fat and whacked out, and I still don't see a Dodge Viper parked in my parking space.
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#13015 - 10/20/08 11:37 PM Re: Seperation of Church and State [Re: fakepropht]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
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You know, I like those Amish folk. They keep to themselves and don't fuck with anybody. I can respect that.
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#13037 - 10/21/08 01:39 AM Re: Seperation of Church and State [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
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Loc: Vancouver, Canada
 Quote:

And after we kick out the psuedo satanists, the psychos, and those that don't belong, all 400 of us will be a "monster" threat.

LoL someone that see's it my way. I don't think there are very many of us either. Certainly far less than there are accounts registered here \:\)

I would like to think those 400 would be smart enough to pull the strings behind the scenes, manipulate the elections or maneuver themselves into advisory positions to the candidates themselves rather than do something so plebian as vote and expect it to make a difference.
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#13043 - 10/21/08 02:57 AM Re: Seperation of Church and State [Re: Dan_Dread]
Diavolo Offline
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On the subject of politicians and religion, I encountered this movie a while back on the internet and hell, I think it's the best you can expect of an American politician on that subject:

Barack Obama Versus Religion

I don't see the other side give such a speech.

D.

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#13081 - 10/21/08 11:16 AM Re: Seperation of Church and State [Re: Diavolo]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
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Interesting, but I still say scripture should never dictate public policy. It should be illegal for politicians to talk about god. He mentions, in the video, explaining why he takes the stance he does on abortion etc. to "non-believers" ini a way that rely on the bible. I have yet to hear him do this.
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#13084 - 10/21/08 11:26 AM Re: Seperation of Church and State [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
Diavolo Offline
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Here it is normal for politicians to be atheists but I think anyone in the USA just mentioning it instantly kills his/her political career. You'd be a pretty dumb politician to not wave or adore the scripture in public. You can be sure there are less believers in private than public.

I am not too bothered who is gonna win there or not but to see a presidential candidate actually talk about other and non-belief groups is already revolting if you ask me. As sad as that is.

D.

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#13089 - 10/21/08 11:52 AM Re: Seperation of Church and State [Re: Diavolo]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
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Maybe I miss read your post, but why does it bother you to hear a presidential candidate talk about "other and non-belief groups"

You are probably right, there are less believers in private than in public. It is just a sad commentary on the state of this country. So many stupid people still believing in a book that was written for a generation long since defunct.
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#13104 - 10/21/08 01:31 PM Re: Seperation of Church and State [Re: Diavolo]
The Zebu Offline
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Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1640
Loc: Orlando, FL
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo


Barack Obama Versus Religion

I don't see the other side give such a speech.

D.


OGMF HOLLY SHIT!!!1. He might as well have given every fundamentalist in the US the middle finger. This man has balls. My support for him just skyrocketed.

See? THIS is good pandering to the nonchristian voters. I feel well-pandered to.

: D
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#13113 - 10/21/08 02:26 PM Re: Seperation of Church and State [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
Marilyn Offline
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Registered: 09/05/08
Posts: 45
 Originally Posted By: 6Satan6Archist6
....agendas. Both of these stem from Christian values and it is just a way for them to impose their stupid little fairy tale on the rest of us. ....



if i was in politics, i would use that to my advantage, then once i got my foot in the door of the white house, out comes the new Satanic empire (Joke)
but, you could use it as a tool to get them on your side once the vote has been casted and your the winner,, what more would you want \:\)
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#13116 - 10/21/08 03:20 PM Re: Seperation of Church and State [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
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Rereading my reply, I might indeed not have used an obvious or correct word to express myself on it. I didn't imply revolting as disgusting but more as rebellious.

Blame it on my non-englishness, when I don't pay attention, I can insert the wrong word at times or a stoneage version.

D.

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#13125 - 10/21/08 05:28 PM Re: Seperation of Church and State [Re: The Zebu]
Phaethon Offline
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Registered: 08/01/08
Posts: 78
Wow, that video makes me wish I could vote for Obama
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We have the same face we have the same name.

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#13164 - 10/21/08 09:49 PM Re: Seperation of Church and State [Re: Dan_Dread]
fakepropht Moderator Offline
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Ah, but who says we aren't already? I live in the suburbs of Washington, DC. We have 20 members in our local group. None younger than 35. That's as far as I am allowed to go, for membership reasons and privacy reasons. ;\)
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#13212 - 10/22/08 11:15 AM Re: Seperation of Church and State [Re: The Zebu]
BlacKAcRE66 Offline
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Registered: 10/22/08
Posts: 59
Loc: California
I think we all need to keep politicians neutral on religion because by giving favor to so called Judeo Christian values they are in fact violating the constitution which says we shall entreat or favor no particular religion and exercise the freedom of worship. When John McCain or any other candidate keeps emphasizing Judeo/Christian values we need to give them five demerits with public ridicule. Our political system has been pulverized by false education of what being a conservative or liberal means. These are not moral or religious choices, they are fiscal and civic choices...You can be a Satanist and be a very good fiscal conservative, or you can be gay or lesbian and still be a fiscal conservative because it is about what you do with taxpayer's money and I think anybody who is a Satanist should make sure they can take advantage of every tax loophole and give as little to government as possible. Anybody who has a coven, church or wigwam, should set up a non-profit organization on the side and use it to write off everything!
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#13499 - 10/27/08 01:59 AM Re: Seperation of Church and State [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
ceruleansteel Offline
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Registered: 10/15/07
Posts: 784
Loc: Behind you
 Originally Posted By: 6Satan6Archist6
that's all politicians have ever done: sang to the popular tune at the time to win favor.


Then they should attend mass. Though Baptist is a very close second, Catholicism is actually the most predominant religion (70 million or so). It would probably do them well to learn spanish, too...because seeing as they are outbreeding everyone else and continuing to waltz right over the border, we are fast looking at becoming the next mexico...I guess we could all move down there once they have cleared out and start a new country.

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#22081 - 03/16/09 06:21 AM Re: Seperation of Church and State [Re: ceruleansteel]
Grandpabeast Offline
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Registered: 02/26/09
Posts: 157
Loc: No. Utah. USA
I bitch allot about living in Utah. But it is a truly white conservative Mormon theocracy here. The non Mormon population is gaining here, but it is slow in coming. The church and State intertwining leads to oppression to those who are different and disagree with the masses of the brainwashed zombies. Here, they fear us... But as the so called righteous saints deny their carnal nature, and outlaw adulthood the effect comes back to bite them in the ass. One of the highest unplanned teen pregnancy rates in the nation, the highest pornography subscription in the US, the second highest prescriptions of antidepressants, a high rate of suicide etc. And, this is mostly contained in the Mormon and "Jack Mormon" population. The more the church and state restrict human nature, the more tragic the results seem to be. Out founding fathers would roll over in their grave if they saw what has become of out nation and it's sheeple...


Roger.
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#22099 - 03/16/09 09:48 AM Re: Seperation of Church and State [Re: The Zebu]
Morbid Rex Offline
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Registered: 01/29/09
Posts: 130
Religion has always been used as a political tool to rally up people and get them behind whatever the Government's ideals were. Bush was going around telling people how the "War on Terror" was a God-given decision. Separation of Church and State wont happen as long as we live in a society run by Judeo-Christian values. It's far to easy to rally up the sheep-like flock of mankind when you convince them that God is on their side, nations have always done this.
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#22574 - 03/26/09 11:03 AM Re: Seperation of Church and State [Re: Morbid Rex]
BaronVonShankly Offline
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Registered: 03/23/09
Posts: 168
Loc: London
The problem with there being little seperation between church and state is christanity is now starting to inform policy. The absolute end situation could be that it pulls us scientificaly into a new dark ages.
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#22586 - 03/26/09 03:56 PM Re: Seperation of Church and State [Re: BaronVonShankly]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
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Registered: 10/16/08
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What do you mean now? This has been going on for a long time. Ever since this country was founded, in fact. The Puritans came over here with the hopes of living in a place free of sin. That being the case; religous meddeling in politics is not the exception it is the rule.
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#22823 - 04/02/09 08:53 PM Re: Seperation of Church and State [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
cheryablinsk70 Offline
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Registered: 04/01/09
Posts: 25
Religion has a history of being too caught up in politics all over the world. There is no major religion in the world that I can name that either does not now or has not in the past controlled a decent part of the government in some country or another.

This is unfortunate, because politics really should have a lot more to do with the public good and the people's rights rather than the opinion of the religious.

Why else is same-sex marriage not legal yet?

Though I suppose I must concede that people in many other countries have it a lot worse than us Americans (and Canadians, Germans, British, et. al.) like Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, and such.

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#22849 - 04/03/09 01:20 AM Re: Seperation of Church and State [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
Lucius600 Offline
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Registered: 03/29/09
Posts: 28
Loc: USA
Listen,there will never be a separation of church and state,especially not in this country.I am a cold,hard realist about such things.And even though I'm a satanist,I don't even dream about some kind of 'satanic empire',because there will never be one.There hasn't been one yet anyway.People throughout history continue to structure each and every society around some nonsense that has nothing to do with the running of government.The Only thing we can hope for are 'laws' that allow us our individual freedom of choice and right to privacy.Which is exactly what the religious 'right' and their kind don't want us to have.These people don't even believe the crap they say anyway.They just want to tell you how to live your life.
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#23195 - 04/11/09 12:34 AM Re: Seperation of Church and State [Re: Lucius600]
EwanCS Offline
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Registered: 04/07/09
Posts: 22
Loc: Glasgow, UK
I have a great deal of envy when it comes to constitutional countries. The UK has no such laws, which meant I had to go through the indoctrination process by a state school. Never been esspecialy chuffed about that one.
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#31152 - 11/02/09 11:40 PM Re: Seperation of Church and State [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
frazier Offline
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Registered: 10/21/09
Posts: 13
Loc: daphne,alabama,us
our founding fathers would be horrified bye the way this country is be ruled by a religion there is no reason that it should be taking place...how as a people can we have pride in our country and believe in the the politicians that "rule" it to use there beliefs as a construct for a political platform....we have freedom of religion and i guess the "right" to be ruled by one,its bullshit.i want to see a santanist ever try to openly run in a political campain and see how far he gets.
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#31171 - 11/03/09 07:13 AM Re: Seperation of Church and State [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
Satansfarm Offline
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Registered: 01/12/08
Posts: 352
Loc: america
If religions feel that they have the right to meddle in the affairs of government, then they should be taxed. If not taxed on their income, then at least tax them on all that lovely property they own. The world is, after all, a business, Mr. Beale.
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#31221 - 11/04/09 09:46 AM Re: Seperation of Church and State [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
Satansfarm Offline
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Registered: 01/12/08
Posts: 352
Loc: america
Gee wiz, I should get a hold of those government forms and start
piecing together my own religion!!!!!! Do I have to have followers?
I'm not really that fond of having to entertain guests all the time. Do my followers have to be human? Maybe I can have plants as my congregation. Yes! The SACRED ORDER OF VEGETABLES !!!!!
Now, exactly how much dough can I get for this???? If the margins are too low, than it's not worth the effort. I wonder though, can those funds recieved from the government to fund the church be invested at the stock market? Hey, I know this guy who's really great with the ponies. Hmmmmmm, if its really alot of money, I can open my own whorehouse/resort/casino.

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#31224 - 11/04/09 10:38 AM Re: Seperation of Church and State [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
Satansfarm Offline
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Posts: 352
Loc: america
L. Ron Hubbard certainly did take this idea to an extreme level. The Church of Scientology continues to rake it in even though there are many detractors. I may not agree with all their methods
or beliefs, but they sure do have moxy.

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#31226 - 11/04/09 12:41 PM US Tax-Exemption/Church of Satan [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
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Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2515
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: MawhrinSkel
If you're feeling adventurous, you can actually found a religion and submit it to the government for approval. If it's approved, you receive annual funds based on your current membership number, as well as a number of other benefits.

Not in the United States. Tax-exempt status does not actively pay anything to you, just exempts you from taxes related to your religious/nonprofit functioning. But if you also function economically as a business, e.g. selling crucifixes, T-shirts, etc. to the public, that would not be exempt from sales tax.

There are of course other ways that federal & state governments routinely violate church/state separation, for instance the maintenance of Catholic/Protestant chapels on military bases and commissioning/payment of chaplains as military officers. All the way down to "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance and "In God We Trust" on our currency. If you don't like this, these are the folks for you. ;\)

 Quote:
I don't know what happened with the CoS and their intentions to pay taxes regardless of being an approved religion. I read something about it once, but I forget.

In 1971 the LaVeys had finally taken the steps to incorporate the Church of Satan - an event to which the Church membership, including myself, paid little attention at the time on the assumption that it was little more than a formality for legal purposes. The Articles of Incorporation are Appendix #156 in my Church of Satan.

Although Anton later made a habit of stating that the Church deliberately refused tax-exempt status as a gesture of protest against religious tax-exemption, this was simply an excuse for the Church of Satan’s failure to qualify for exemption. On September 16, 1971 a California tax-exemption was issued for the Church, conditional upon a federal exemption. When this was not granted, the California exemption was revoked in 1973. It was reapplied for in 1975, then revoked again in 1985. As of 1992 - the last time I checked - neither the California Attorney General nor the Federal Internal Revenue Service listed the Church of Satan as an exempt organization.
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#31228 - 11/04/09 01:15 PM Re: US Tax-Exemption/Church of Satan [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
Asmedious Moderator Offline
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Just a guess on my part, but perhaps one of the reasons that they did not get the tax exempt certification was because they required a membership fee ($100) at the time for people to join. Membership wasn't open to everyone who wanted it, and it wasn't a voluntary donation. Also, I believe that the CoS (C/S) functioned as a for profit organization where the moneys collected were not solely used for church functions.

Edited by Asmedious (11/04/09 01:16 PM)
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#31236 - 11/04/09 04:08 PM Re: US Tax-Exemption/Church of Satan [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
GillesdeRais Offline
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I find it very difficult to believe that the Federal government would legally assign tax-exempt status to a LHP Initiatory organization. Unless you live in California.
\:\)
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#31237 - 11/04/09 04:48 PM Re: US Tax-Exemption/Church of Satan [Re: Asmedious]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Asmedious
Just a guess on my part, but perhaps one of the reasons that they did not get the tax exempt certification was because they required a membership fee ($100) at the time for people to join. Membership wasn't open to everyone who wanted it, and it wasn't a voluntary donation.

In 1971 the fee for joining the Church of Satan was $13 for a lifetime membership, and such membership [or annual dues] fees were not disqualifications for tax-exempt status. I was visiting 6114 one evening when Anton mentioned the IRS requirements, just said that he was not going to comply with them. He did not go into detail, and I did not question him.

 Quote:
Also, I believe that the CoS (C/S) functioned as a for profit organization where the moneys collected were not solely used for church functions.

If you will read its corporate Articles, you will see that it was set up as a nonprofit religious institution whose income was to be controlled accordingly.
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#31239 - 11/04/09 04:53 PM Re: US Tax-Exemption/Church of Satan [Re: GillesdeRais]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
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 Originally Posted By: GillesdeRais
I find it very difficult to believe that the Federal government would legally assign tax-exempt status to a LHP Initiatory organization. Unless you live in California.:)

The Temple of Set qualified for federal & state religious exempt status upon its founding in 1975. Being a California corporation was not a prerequisite. But the state and federal review process was very extensive and took several months to complete.
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Michael A. Aquino

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#31263 - 11/04/09 10:28 PM Re: US Tax-Exemption/Church of Satan [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
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You know, I had a lot of "fuck yeah" moments when reading TSB, but I think one of the biggest ones was concerning churches and how they should not be tax exempt. Churches bring in alot of revenue and I see no reason why they should be exempt from paying taxes. I have to pay a tax on alcohol so they should have to pay a tax on faith.
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#31371 - 11/06/09 08:21 PM Re: US Tax-Exemption/Church of Satan [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
Satansfarm Offline
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Posts: 352
Loc: america
If the US could tax the Catholic church, wow, then we could really bomb the hell out of everybody!!!!!!
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#32622 - 12/07/09 08:03 AM Re: Seperation of Church and State [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
Gemini Offline
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Registered: 03/18/09
Posts: 56
Loc: Oklahoma City, Oklahoma
Going waaaay back to the beginning of the thread here, but:

 Originally Posted By: 6Satan6Archist6
It should be illegal for politicians to talk about god.


Moreover, it should be illegal for clergy persons of any tax-exempted religious institution, organization, or congregation to talk politics to their congregants, at any time - this also qualifies as a breach of the "Separation of Church & State". Any idea how many Christian pastors start talking about how much they like such-and-such Presidential candidate when election time rolls around? Quite a few - probably all, but I'm just guessing.
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#32628 - 12/07/09 07:04 PM Re: Seperation of Church and State [Re: Gemini]
Asmedious Moderator Offline
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 Quote:
Moreover, it should be illegal for clergy persons of any tax-exempted religious institution, organization, or congregation to talk politics to their congregants, at any time


I am very much in favor of taxing religious institutions, although I would very happily give that up for the abolishing of the income tax on wages. But that’s another story all together.

However, when people start talking about making it illegal for any individual to express their personal views in any capacity, it makes the hairs on the back of my neck stand up.

I understand the viewpoint, and as much as I would LIKE preachers to stop talking about politics, and politicians to stop babbling about religion, I would never go along with making it a law.

Even the way things are now, people from most of the professions out there, wether they work in the private sector or the public sector, often times have to chose their words so carefully as to not offend anyone, that most of them cannot express much personal opinion about anything, without having to fear some kind of backlash, or having their words taken out of context and twisted around.

I would go even further to say that no verbal or written speech of any kind should be be illegal or censored. No exceptions. I would definitely draw a solid line between words and actions though.
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#32635 - 12/07/09 08:31 PM Re: Seperation of Church and State [Re: Asmedious]
Gemini Offline
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Registered: 03/18/09
Posts: 56
Loc: Oklahoma City, Oklahoma
 Originally Posted By: Asmedious
when people start talking about making it illegal for any individual to express their personal views in any capacity, it makes the hairs on the back of my neck stand up.

I understand the viewpoint, and as much as I would LIKE preachers to stop talking about politics, and politicians to stop babbling about religion, I would never go along with making it a law.

Even the way things are now, people from most of the professions out there, wether they work in the private sector or the public sector, often times have to chose their words so carefully as to not offend anyone, that most of them cannot express much personal opinion about anything, without having to fear some kind of backlash, or having their words taken out of context and twisted around.

I would go even further to say that no verbal or written speech of any kind should be be illegal or censored. No exceptions. I would definitely draw a solid line between words and actions though.


...I honestly can't say I disagree. I've never been a fan of straight-out censorship, and perhaps making such things "illegal" is the wrong way to go about doing things.

Ultimately, the point I'm trying to make is that once a pastor (or whomever) starts trying to sway his congregation's political views, to any degree really, it's violating the Separation of Church & State - especially when you start hearing such epic things that would lead the brainless to believe that "God wants so-and-so to be President, or Governor, or whatever", and I've heard that kind of babble before.

To be sure, it's a difficult line to draw.

Tax the fuck out of the religionists; their god(s) can't manage money worth a damn, anyway.



Edited by Gemini (12/07/09 08:31 PM)
Edit Reason: Bad BBCode
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#32640 - 12/07/09 11:05 PM Re: Seperation of Church and State [Re: Gemini]
CJB Offline
member


Registered: 10/12/09
Posts: 125
Loc: Virginia Beach, VA
I find myself in a bit of disagreement. A pastor trying to sway his congregation to voting for whomever is no different than you doing it on a street corner, or a non-profit political activist group trying to do it.
Plus, if I'm not mistaken, I believe that a pastor/preacher/whatever still has to pay income taxes on what the non-profit (church) pays him? Someone please correct me if I'm wrong on that. Yes, even if that is the case, there are loopholes big enough to sail battleships through, but you have those everywhere in taxes.

I also think you're misunderstanding what separation of church and state menas. That means that the government cannot pass a law requiring you to be a member of a church, and (more or less) that it cannot pass a law based solely on religious doctrine. Abortion could be considered non-religious since there's scientific dispute on when life begins. Teaching ID in school would be considered religious since it requires some sort of god.

The purpose of the wall of separation is to keep the government out of churches and out of people's spiritual lives, not the other way around. Since government can't pass laws based solely on religion, than any hapless clergyman who wandered into politics would (theoretically) be very restricted on what he could try to accomplish.

Of course, in the U.S., if you have a sympathetic president, congress, and court, you could probably push whatever religious bullshit you could through.
Therein lies the flaw in democracy...it depends entirely too much on other people being intelligent, and a large enough majority of idiots can enact bad laws.
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"To say 'I love you' one must know first how to say the 'I.'"
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#32660 - 12/08/09 04:56 PM Re: Seperation of Church and State [Re: CJB]
Gemini Offline
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Registered: 03/18/09
Posts: 56
Loc: Oklahoma City, Oklahoma
 Originally Posted By: CJB
I find myself in a bit of disagreement. A pastor trying to sway his congregation to voting for whomever is no different than you doing it on a street corner, or a non-profit political activist group trying to do it.

It is different, if I'm not doing it with a religious foothold to use as leverage.


 Quote:
Plus, if I'm not mistaken, I believe that a pastor/preacher/whatever still has to pay income taxes on what the non-profit (church) pays him? Someone please correct me if I'm wrong on that. Yes, even if that is the case, there are loopholes big enough to sail battleships through, but you have those everywhere in taxes.

That's something I'd honestly have to look into; I'm not certain on this. If so, then that shuts my argument halfway up.

 Quote:
I also think you're misunderstanding what separation of church and state menas. That means that the government cannot pass a law requiring you to be a member of a church, and (more or less) that it cannot pass a law based solely on religious doctrine.

I'm not misunderstanding a damn thing. I'm perfectly aware of the meaning given in the Constitution of the United States; however, I'm also saying that our Constitution is hardly perfect.

In my opinion, revisions need to made which keep the government out of religion, and visa versa; otherwise there is no true separation taking place.

 Quote:
Therein lies the flaw in democracy...it depends entirely too much on other people being intelligent, and a large enough majority of idiots can enact bad laws.

Except we don't live in a democracy, and never have. Democracy, like Communism, can never actually exist and/or function. At best, the United States is a pseudo-Republican, Socialist Plutocracy.
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#32674 - 12/08/09 06:58 PM Re: Seperation of Church and State [Re: Gemini]
CJB Offline
member


Registered: 10/12/09
Posts: 125
Loc: Virginia Beach, VA
 Originally Posted By: Gemini
It is different, if I'm not doing it with a religious foothold to use as leverage.


Should it just be using religion as a foothold? What about if you talk to your employees or co-workers about political stuff? Would you not be using your work relationship as leverage? That does seem a bit un-work-ethical, so let's take a step further: what about your friends? Would talking to friends about politics not be using your friendship as a foothold to use as leverage? People will use the power they get to influence people to do what they want, whether they be priests, CEOs, politicians, friends, or whatever.

Believe me, I'm not disagreeing that I think the world would be a wonderful place if preachers would just shut the fuck up (and not just about politics!), but I don't think the answer would be to make it illegal for them to talk, but would more ideally just be to ridicule the hell out of them until nobody listens to them anymore. I want preachers to keep talking! The more they talk, the more intelligent people realize they're full of shit.

 Quote:
I'm not misunderstanding a damn thing. I'm perfectly aware of the meaning given in the Constitution of the United States; however, I'm also saying that our Constitution is hardly perfect.


Touche...

 Quote:

In my opinion, revisions need to made which keep the government out of religion, and visa versa; otherwise there is no true separation taking place.


Ah, I see what you mean here. So here's a question, then, following up on what I said last paragraph: what else should politics be left out of and visa versa? Religion is, among other things, a philosophy. Should it just be philosophies that rely on a god that are separated? Or all philosophies? Should just people smart enough to actually understand what's going on actually be able to make a vote or take an action about it? Should it just be people that agree with the status quo? People who want change?

Ideally, I agree with you. Politics shouldn't discuss religion, religion shouldn't discuss politics (after all, most religions are more concerned with what happens after you die, anyway). But seeing as how so many people have so many ideas that come from so many different places, how should we decide what should be considered? If we never had religious people influencing politicians, we wouldn't have a lot of the stuff we have now (for better and for worse). To block out a voice because of a belief is to ignore a potentially valuable idea. What if the preacher teaches his congregation that politics are a worldy matter, best left to worldly people? I would gladly applaud that message and maybe even spend money to see it spread around!



 Quote:

Except we don't live in a democracy, and never have. Democracy, like Communism, can never actually exist and/or function. At best, the United States is a pseudo-Republican, Socialist Plutocracy.


...ok, true. Point conceded.
_________________________
~~CJ
"To say 'I love you' one must know first how to say the 'I.'"
-Ayn Rand

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#32720 - 12/09/09 03:20 PM Re: Separation of Church and State [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2515
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
Concerning this topic generally, the Freedom From Religion Foundation is an excellent resource, not to mention a kick-ass organization. Back in the 1980s when all the Fundamentalists were inventing sex-fantasies about "Satanic crime", FFRF's monthly newspaper ran a regular, and very extensive "Black Collar Crime" column documenting prosecutions & convictions of Christian clergy for real felonies and sex-crimes.

The FFRF website also has a number of downloadable pamphlets and papers which can be useful if you feel like getting into cultured discussions, heated arguments, or John Wayne bar fights about any/all of this.
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#32721 - 12/09/09 04:21 PM Re: Separation of Church and State [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
Ah, yes, I have always been a big fan of of The FFRF. I used to print off some of their pamphlets and leave them around my high school. I also produced my own (very) short-lived newsletter called "The Heretic" where I would call into question the various inaccuracies in The Bible. When called into the principal's office I claimed that I was trying to wake up the ignorant masses but in all honesty I was just trying to piss people off.
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