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#13207 - 10/22/08 10:53 AM Re: Hypothetical Question [Re: lux]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
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Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
So its a matter of free will or god's preordained path?

Cause god is supposed to know everything, and care for his children.

Is it he loves us no matter what we do?
or
He sets us up to suffer and he laughs at the outcome?

I think absentee landlord might be right.
Otherwise, please explain why a 5 year child is allowed to be beaten, abused, and killed by its parents?

Morgan
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#13208 - 10/22/08 11:02 AM Re: Hypothetical Question [Re: Morgan]
lux Offline
Banned
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Registered: 09/26/08
Posts: 64
Loc: Newcastle UK
He loves us no matter what we do.

a 5yr old is allowed to go through this because his/her (dont use "it" that is so dehumanizing) parents were given free will.

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#13211 - 10/22/08 11:13 AM Re: Hypothetical Question [Re: lux]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
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Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
So god loves a person who kills a 5 year old by beating her to death.

So god allows an innocent child to be abused.

So god also allows the parents to go to heaven cause they were catholic?

So god needs a lesson in moral objectivity, and knowing right from wrong.


This is it.
This is our heaven.
This is our hell.
This is all there is.
I am my own god.
I make my own choices and take responsibilty for them.
My eternal mark is from the lives I affect, and the memories I leave behind.
If you are remembered you never really die.

That is Satanism (to me) in a nutshell simplified for you.

Morgan
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#13217 - 10/22/08 11:43 AM Re: Hypothetical Question [Re: Morgan]
lux Offline
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Registered: 09/26/08
Posts: 64
Loc: Newcastle UK
"So god loves a person who kills a 5 year old by beating her to death"

Yes, but you have to remember he hates the killing

"So god allows an innocent child to be abused."

Permits it to happen... not allows it

Free will permits it to happen, free will is the will of God, so the will of God permits it to happen.... but he does not "allow" someone to abuse a child.

"So god also allows the parents to go to heaven cause they were catholic?"

I dont know, their final destination is between God and them.

"So god needs a lesson in moral objectivity, and knowing right from wrong"

Right is whatever is pleasing to God, Wrong is whatever is abhorant to God, he needs no lessons in moral objectivity he is the source of morality.

"My eternal mark is from the lives I affect, and the memories I leave behind.
If you are remembered you never really die."

Then Go kill 6 million Jews!

99% of the time its the bad guys that are remembered.... doesnt that say something?


Edited by lux (10/22/08 11:44 AM)

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#13219 - 10/22/08 11:58 AM Re: Hypothetical Question [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
Fabiano Offline
member


Registered: 09/06/08
Posts: 374
To this question I would have answered:

Supposing they exists, which Heaven, which Hell? The Xian ones? If the Xian one could exist, why not the indhuist or Islamic ones?
Don't your fear to have chosen the wrong religion and to fall in the Hell of an other one?

And if you don't fear it arguing that there is only one true God (so one Hell and one Heaven) and salvation does not depends on the religion you choose, then I have as a Satanist the same chances to go in Hell or Heaven than any other man.

At Secondary school, I had a religion teacher who was a theologian (and also a Xian). I remember the conclusion of one lesson dedicated to "who will be saved". The answer was "any sincere man" (sincere Xian, sincere Buddhist, sincere Atheist,...).

So, if Heaven and Hell exists I think I'll go in Heaven because I'm sincere Satanist.

If Hell is a place were there is only suffering and Heaven the place where there is only Happiness and God send me to Hell then I will have no rest in raising an Army in Hell and conqueer Heavens !

If Hell & Heaven are more state of minds, than I'm quite confident and think Torquemada is in a very bad position (will be hard for him to explain to God he sincerely believed inquisition was in line with his Faith)


Just a last word about "agnostic" as it was addressed in this thread. I define myself as an agnostic because:
* It's possible GOD exists but I have no proof of it
* It's possible GOD does not exists but I have no proof of it
* The only logical conclusion I can make is "I know that I don't know (and that there are no mean to know).

To my eyes, Atheism and Theism are based on Faith (i.e. belief without proof).



Edited by Fabiano (10/22/08 12:21 PM)

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#13222 - 10/22/08 01:19 PM Re: Hypothetical Question [Re: Fabiano]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Mate, I had to go take a bath and chill out after reading your reply. Mentioning being an agnostic makes me feel as if someone kicked me in my intellectual nuts. It triggers some killer frenzy only displayed in B-movies.

I know you can't prove that god exists and of course you can't prove god doesn't exist either but you can be sure of one thing; if A is true notA is not true. But is that a reason to sit on the fence and not take a position at all? Does it make you more right?

No, agnosticism is -and excuse me that I say so- intellectual cowardism. It's a bit as if you aren't sure whether to run or fight when an enemy comes and thus decide to hop around in circles wielding your fists. It sure ain't gonna impress anyone, neither isn't it going to be at your advantage.

If logic really dictates that agnosticism is the best solution because you can't be 100% sure of A or notA then you have to be agnostic about almost everything in life.
At least 90% of what you think to be true you got from other sources. The other 10% you got from your subjective self. Very little in life gave you ever a 100% failproof answer. Goblins, dragons, teapots in space, spaghetti monsters, genes, atoms, gravity, big bang, black holes, the man on the moon, angels and ghosts, hell even Osama Bin laden and Bush can't be guaranteed to exist. I never met them and only got the knowledge from papers or television. I saw kobolds and dragons on it too.
Isn't it weird how most are only agnostic about god but seldom about cows in space or little green marshmellow babies lurking in the dark? Is logic different for god somehow, like he's a special exception? Ask an agnostic if he believes in Santa Claus and I'll bet all besides the loonies are gonna say; are you kidding me, you think I'm an idiot. I still have to meet the first rubbing his chin while saying; hmm, I don't know, I have to be agnostic about him.

Logic dictates that something is either false or true but that both can't be true. (Don't argue against this with S. his cat now please)
Logic also dictates that if there is no proof at all for something or no substantial theory that can be verified at one point, it likely isn't going to exist.

There is so much proof that all could have happened without god. There is so little, err excuse me, NO proof for god anywhere.

What could a logical person only conclude?

Get some intellectual courage and leave the safe spot, people aren't going to hurt you. You ain't becoming a believer because you pick the side of no god. You are becoming someone that has the advantage on his side but is always open for argumentation. It just has to be good enough.

Hmm, chilling out first is miraculous; thank you god.

D.

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#13231 - 10/22/08 03:29 PM Re: Hypothetical Question [Re: lux]
The Zebu Offline
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Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1647
Loc: Orlando, FL
All these things rest on the assumption that there is a pure soul inside of every human, for which there is no evidence whatsoever.

I see organisms consisting of flesh and bone. If a mentally disturbed person starts killing people, I don't care whether or not it's his "evil intent" or his mental sickness driving him to commit crimes- he deserves nothing less than to be purged from the species. In my eyes he is "bad", and it is imperceivable to me how anyone could view him otherwise.

We have nothing else to judge one another than our actions. Therefore there is no reason to assume there's a guy in the clouds who can look at what's "really" going on in our heads, or that the serial-killing nutjob can somehow be "saved".

But Lux, I do have an honest-to-Jeebus question for you about the issue brought up earlier:

If no suffering is allowed in heaven, then how does that account for the pain of knowing your loved ones are in hell?

This to me is the greatest paradox that disproves the existence of an eternal Heaven and Hell.


Edited by The Zebu (10/22/08 03:29 PM)
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#13235 - 10/22/08 04:00 PM Re: Hypothetical Question [Re: The Zebu]
blsk Offline
member


Registered: 09/22/08
Posts: 298
Loc: salem or
Diavolo, i'm with Fabiano on this one. How is it cowardice to be on the fence. I don't see that at all. There may be a god. It is not impossible. But that doesn't mean i'm going to jump in the first group that says they are right. Show me! That sounds to me a lot like jumping on the Iraq war simply because Bush said they have weapons. We all see where that went. We simply demand reasoning on the matter that is all. Oh and by the way, there is proof of black holes.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9mhsW5aWJM

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#13237 - 10/22/08 04:07 PM Re: Hypothetical Question [Re: blsk]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Like I mentioned; why don't you ask me to prove you that Santa Claus doesn't exist or gremlins? You know why; because the mere idea is ridiculous, you'd feel insulted if people would only imagine you'd maybe believe in them. I'll never see you demand reason on those or anything else you take for granted.

But hey, god is so special, you wanna make an exception for him. If he's special, he has gotten to you.

D.

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#13239 - 10/22/08 04:08 PM Re: Hypothetical Question [Re: Diavolo]
blsk Offline
member


Registered: 09/22/08
Posts: 298
Loc: salem or
I take NOTHING at face value. I want a reason for everything. I'm like that anoying kid allways asking why, why, why.

Edited by blsk (10/22/08 04:10 PM)
_________________________
Ed made mens sewing cool.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9mhsW5aWJM

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#13240 - 10/22/08 04:10 PM Re: Hypothetical Question [Re: blsk]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Tsk Tsk, now don't you lie to me. You'd be the first human being on earth to do so.

D.

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#13241 - 10/22/08 04:11 PM Re: Hypothetical Question [Re: Diavolo]
blsk Offline
member


Registered: 09/22/08
Posts: 298
Loc: salem or
Clever, but nice try.
_________________________
Ed made mens sewing cool.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9mhsW5aWJM

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#13243 - 10/22/08 04:28 PM Re: Hypothetical Question [Re: blsk]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
No seriously, you don't question everything in life; you take a lot for granted although there is no certainty that it is like it is. I do the same, as does everyone out there. The difference between people is that some question more than others but even when embracing the answers, there is no guarantee they are the right answers. We decide to believe they are right. We take a position on things sometimes for no good reasons, other times after judging the arguments.

I can't prove anything to not be. None can, it's an intellectual no-brainer. We can only prove that something is or theorize what it is we observe.

Agnosticism is the Paris Hilton of convictions; a lot of appearance but very little content.

D.

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#13244 - 10/22/08 04:33 PM Re: Hypothetical Question [Re: Diavolo]
blsk Offline
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Registered: 09/22/08
Posts: 298
Loc: salem or
Ok, granted. There are SOME things taken, but only things of little concern. Not something like the meaning of our very existance or what (if anything) happens after death.
_________________________
Ed made mens sewing cool.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9mhsW5aWJM

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#13245 - 10/22/08 04:45 PM Re: Hypothetical Question [Re: blsk]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
And that's my point; if you take some things for granted, and many are of a bigger concern than you at the moment might realize, then why aren't you agnostic about all of these?

Why aren't you agnostic about all the other negatives?

D.

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