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#13307 - 10/22/08 08:07 PM Re: Hypothetical Question [Re: lux]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
Lux what are you doing here? I thought you were banned. Either way please keep your nonsense out of my thread. That is all thank you.
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No gods. No masters.

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#13332 - 10/23/08 12:26 AM Re: Hypothetical Question [Re: lux]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1647
Loc: Orlando, FL
"agnostisim is the only honest possition unless they have been visited by God"

EXACTLY. So a normal person with no "spiritual experiences" (ie, pretty much all of us) have no rational reason to believe in God whatsoever!

Therefore WE would have no reason to believe in God, and also no incentive to accept Jesus Christ as our savior or any of that nonsense.

If you believe this then what are you quarreling about?
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«Recibe, ˇoh Lucifer! la sangre de esta víctima que sacrifico en tu honor.»

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#13335 - 10/23/08 01:03 AM Re: Hypothetical Question [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
BlacKAcRE66 Offline
pledge


Registered: 10/22/08
Posts: 59
Loc: California
 Originally Posted By: 6Satan6Archist6
I was asked this by someone I go to so school with the other day:
"What if heaven and hell were real, you would be going to hell does this bother you?"

My response: In the unlikely event there is a god, I prefer hell. This is because that is where all my friends will be and I would rather be with like minded individuals than stuck in some place with the people whom I despise for all eternity. To quote Johnny Hobo: at least in hell there's rock and roll and there aint no jesus christ. Just wondering what the perspective of the other members on this forum are.


It is really profound and ignorant for someone to assume that you would automatically go to hell just for being what you probably are meant to be...I do not believe in that concept but I also do not fit into the LaVeyian theology either...I believe we are all made to be a negative or positive force in the World from a polarity stand point and I believe we all can contribute to constructive continuance. As I once read from the Order of Nine Angles "Evil can serve noble or ignoble purposes"...To me Satanism is the ultimate regulating factor in World Order and if I am a Satanist then I am just the other side of order, Our own country and World is founded on the principle of Chaos which is always moving forward and as a result the Old religion is resurfacing as the Phoenix...That is why we have upheaval, and the tearing down of one empire to build another...Our universe started from Chaos and yet it is ordered...If you be a true son of Satan then you are one with Chaos and ye have nothing to fear not even hell because you will be ruling there. Satanist make history.

Hail Satan!
_________________________
~The power to deny is as the power of myth~

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#13339 - 10/23/08 11:02 AM Re: Hypothetical Question [Re: lux]
BlacKAcRE66 Offline
pledge


Registered: 10/22/08
Posts: 59
Loc: California
 Originally Posted By: lux
More likey something in his life, a bit like how the death of alister crowley's dad sent him on his path


You know the first thing that came to my mind was Sir Isaac Newton's law: "For every action there is a reaction". We live in a universe of "cause and effect". for example if I hit you, you are either going to hit me back, kill me, or maybe walk away. Everything we do is like a stone being thrown into a pond making the water ripple. A ripple hit Aleister Crowley, and a ripple hit Adolf Hitler. The way we react to the effect gives way to other effects which produce other causes.

It is like the coal in a locomotive that keeps the boiler going and the train moving...The train being our existence...If we did not have such mechanisms, we would not have a reason to get up in the morning, and we would have reached entropy...In alot of ways we have Hell on Earth and we help make it for ourselves because we have egotist,murderers,rapist, and thugs of the lowest mentality. But then again these are just devolved creatures who fell through the cracks or are playing a vital part of chaos which is regulated by our policing and where the next bend in the road occurs depends upon how well a job we did or the choice we made in the Execution of duty.

Whoa! I need to take a break.
_________________________
~The power to deny is as the power of myth~

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#13340 - 10/23/08 11:10 AM Re: Hypothetical Question [Re: lux]
Ringmaster Offline
member


Registered: 04/07/08
Posts: 205
Loc: Salem Oregon
Back up wait a minute. So you're saying he acted like that not because he chose to but some event in his life caused him to do such acts? Are you suggesting PTSD or something along those lines because if so that is a load of bullocks. He acted on his own behalf. It seems that the whole cliche of daddy didn't love me or mommy's boyfriend touched me in a naughty way made me do it thing is being used as the basis of excuses of most criminals nowadays and now we are giving it to Hitler? Whatever happened to taking responsibility for ones own actions?
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Get off the cross and save yourself, I feel no pity for the cries of a weak man.

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#13343 - 10/23/08 12:42 PM Re: Hypothetical Question [Re: Ringmaster]
BlacKAcRE66 Offline
pledge


Registered: 10/22/08
Posts: 59
Loc: California
 Originally Posted By: ringmaster
Back up wait a minute. So you're saying he acted like that not because he chose to but some event in his life caused him to do such acts? Are you suggesting PTSD or something along those lines because if so that is a load of bullocks. He acted on his own behalf. It seems that the whole cliche of daddy didn't love me or mommy's boyfriend touched me in a naughty way made me do it thing is being used as the basis of excuses of most criminals nowadays and now we are giving it to Hitler? Whatever happened to taking responsibility for ones own actions?


Well, there is still the law of free will...How you react determines the repercussions or counter balancing forces..How you and I process our issues determines...I am not suggesting Hitler was justified for his actions, but he was not only effected as a child but his world view was shaped or nurtured by his experiences...It is worth comparing Winston Churchill and Adolf Hitler here...Both Churchill and Hitler has similar childhood experiences and both were artistic and both were practitioners of Occultism later in their lives...Though both had been negatively effected in their childhood, one came out more positive to be able to come out in the right place in time and history to defeat the other...Nature has a way of balancing itself out...This may be hard to accept, but Hitler played just as much a necessary role in our system because he was the force that helped in the process of bringing about World Order. We are in a constant state of death and rebirth like our universe with the death of stars and the birthing of new ones...It is a chaotic event. When your mother gave birth to you, she went through pain, but immediately appreciated the end result (I hope) Even though the experience was painful, she cherished the life which came from it. Are we a little happier today after the World Wars? Maybe not because we are already in a new cycle of change and the World is giving birth to a new order of all things...Yesterday it was Hitler who was the negative integer, but today it is radical Islam, financial crisis, food shortages, revolutions and political upheaval. The forces of Chaos is bringing about the birthing of a new thing. No it is not PTSD or something... There is the of law cause and effect, Free will and then time and chance or nature taking its course.

How many people have been negatively affected by some tragedy and instead of going out and killing someone, they decided to take a different course like starting a non-profit organization to raise an awareness? That is the law of free will working in a positive manner and is yet chaos, but one thing I do not like is that some Satanist would say that person is "weak minded". That person who had been negatively effected and went on the higher path, could be setting out to screw up every persons life who had acted in the same manner as the one who harmed this person who chose a higher road. That Person could be a Satanist.

A Satanist does not run down the hill to fuck one person, he walks down the hill and fucks em all.

Hail Satan!


Edited by BlacKAcRE66 (10/23/08 12:44 PM)
_________________________
~The power to deny is as the power of myth~

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#13358 - 10/23/08 08:26 PM Re: Hypothetical Question [Re: BlacKAcRE66]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
Towards Lux.....

"Free will permits it to happen, free will is the will of God, so the will of God permits it to happen.... but he does not "allow" someone to abuse a child."

Yes he does. Your god sits there watches, and does nothing.


"Right is whatever is pleasing to God, Wrong is whatever is abhorant to God, he needs no lessons in moral objectivity he is the source of morality."

So its pleasing to god for a small child to raped and abused, and killed.
Oh wait, he did that before with the ordering of the killing of all the innocent children/first born sons of egypt.

"Then Go kill 6 million Jews!"
Why are you so angrey?
Maybe my family were jews, maybe I was in the camps, maybe my family was in the camps? You dont know who I am or who any of us are.

"99% of the time its the bad guys that are remembered.... doesnt that say something?"

Yes, it says your god doesn't care, and doesn't exist.


"I dont know for sure either way, but i have faith in Christian philosophy"

Thats all fine and dandy, but we don't and no amount of your ramblings twisting of posts and words will change that fact.
That's it.

"agnostisim is the only honest possition unless they have been visited by God"

How do you know its god and not a demon, a chemical inbalance, mental disorder, or just a bad drug trip.



Go in peace, the peace I give....

Morgan


Next.........
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Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#13363 - 10/23/08 09:04 PM Re: Hypothetical Question [Re: Morgan]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1647
Loc: Orlando, FL
Expanding on what Morgan says, I must remark on the "why do we suffer if there is a God" issue.

To me, if God existed, he would not ignore the world's suffering if he was truly good. However, most people use this to imply that God is evil, as he sits by and watches everyone suffer and deliberately does nothing.

However, as the Gnostics suggested, is this not plain evidence that this deity is not good nor evil, but a flawed and imperfect demiurge with only limited power? In his ignorance he proclaims himself to be the true perfect Ultimate God, but since he is imperfect, ultimately he cannot live up to his boastings.

I do not believe in Gnosticism for the most part, but I do agree that if there were a cosmic god, it would certainly not be a self-proclaimed "jealous god" who hungers for human followers. To seek the true god we must look beyond Yaltabaoth.


Edited by The Zebu (10/23/08 09:05 PM)
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«Recibe, ˇoh Lucifer! la sangre de esta víctima que sacrifico en tu honor.»

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#13365 - 10/23/08 10:18 PM Re: Hypothetical Question [Re: The Zebu]
BlacKAcRE66 Offline
pledge


Registered: 10/22/08
Posts: 59
Loc: California
Oh hey; here is a good one from the Judeo Xian bible...check this out: "I form the light and create darkness; I make peace and create evil: I the Lord do all these things." Isaiah 45:7

I am made to do what I do and so are you Lux! the whole struggle in life is coming to terms with what you were made to be.

Stop the Insanity!
_________________________
~The power to deny is as the power of myth~

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#13370 - 10/23/08 11:17 PM Re: Hypothetical Question [Re: Diavolo]
Fabiano Offline
member


Registered: 09/06/08
Posts: 374
Hey Diavolo,

I wouldn't believe that this is could cause such intense emotions. Hope you enjoyed them, else sorry! LOL

 Quote:
But is that a reason to sit on the fence and not take a position at all? Does it make you more right?

I feel more right in saying "I know that I don't know and there is no mean to know" than in saying "God exists" or "God does not exists".

 Quote:
It sure ain't gonna impress anyone, neither isn't it going to be at your advantage.

My goal is not to impress anyone, in fact I take less care of what others think about me. 2nd, I don't think running away will impress anyone neither.

 Quote:
Ask an agnostic if he believes in Santa Claus

I do not believe in Santa Claus since I was 6. I went in a supermarket to visit him and saw that his face was not the same at all than the previous year. I questioned my mother, she explained me it was just a story.
About gravity? you can logically deduce it from the observed effects. Each time I fall and its hurts, I ensure you it very real!
Big Bang : I'm agnostic

Think you perhaps missed the "and there is no mean to know"...


 Quote:
Logic also dictates that if there is no proof at all for something or no substantial theory that can be verified at one point, it likely isn't going to exist.
I agree. But it's still a "likely".

 Quote:
There is so much proof that all could have happened without god. There is so little, err excuse me, NO proof for god anywhere.

What could a logical person only conclude?
Nothing!!! However, if I would have to bet on it, I would bet on "no god".

 Quote:
Get some intellectual courage and leave the safe spot,...


Don't consider me as a wimp or a wuss, I don't appreciate!

Remeber I've been a Xian and I had the courage to get out of it. Look at what I posted:

 Originally Posted By: Fabiano

 Originally Posted By: Lux
Why dont you want to believe in God?

Because I did it and it ended in an ordeal, Lux! Or your God exists and he's cruel or it does not exists and I curse those who invented him and put such ideas in my head.


Finaly, nobody tells me how I should think, neither Lux, neither the Pope, neither you, sorry !

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#13375 - 10/24/08 05:16 AM Re: Hypothetical Question [Re: Fabiano]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
I don't tell you what to believe; I just give you another perspective. You do with it what you want. You can believe in the Almighty Purple Dragon and devote 8 hours a day sacrificing herbs, it wouldn't make me sleep any less. You decide what makes you happy in your life and as long as you don't ring my doorbell and try to share the good news with me, it's ok. Happiness in life does not come from believing or disbelieving, so an Atheist isn't necessarily having a better life. But me being all tolerant about what you believe in or not -in private- doesn't imply I have to be postmodern about it.

So let me again point out where your argumentation sucks.

You do not believe in Santa Claus because his face was different and your mother explained to you that it was just a story. Well, it sure isn't an argument for the non-existance of Santa Claus. The real one lives on the North Pole and doesn't show himself when people look.
Also, god his face is different in all religions, and many people will tell you it is only a story.
You see; god - Santa Claus. The argument and logic is identical for both but one doesn't make you wanna feel agnostic, the other does. It's the special status I mentioned.

Gravity is a yes for most of us. You say you can deduce it from the observed effects. Every time you fall you are hurt. But gravity is a word that refers to a theory. Newton had his first explanation and it took until general relativity to find out Newton wasn't that right. Gravity can just as easily be a byproduct of something else or something completely different.
Observing the effects does not imply something is necesarrily true. Again, we take the causes of these effects for granted and are seldom agnostic about them. Again, you grant one a different status than the other. Gravity being a no-brainer, god being special. It's why I said that god has got agnostics by the balls.

No means to know is not a good excuse because as I mentioned before, there is no means to know a lot of things.
And yes we cannot prove it 100%, we can only show evidence supporting or evidence lacking.

If you would bet on 'no god', you are already on the Atheist side. You are only in denial.
It's simple; if you are agnostic, you admit both sides are possible or even probable. Yes I know, you will hide that fact behind the "we can not know" argument but what you say is; if we could know, it would either be A or B. You consider both sides possible, no matter how much evidence one side has or lacks.

It's as if you would have to bet on a horse race and one is the winner of the last five derbies, lots of blood in the breed, excellent papers and the other is a donkey with three legs.

Tell me, would a true agnostic dare to predict the outcome?

It's a good thing you escaped Christianity mate but if you had the courage to do that, have the courage to rethink everything. You can still make up your mind and decide what your thing is.
Like I said, it's your life.

D.

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#13378 - 10/24/08 09:55 AM Re: Hypothetical Question [Re: Diavolo]
BlacKAcRE66 Offline
pledge


Registered: 10/22/08
Posts: 59
Loc: California
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
I don't tell you what to believe; I just give you another perspective. You do with it what you want. You can believe in the Almighty Purple Dragon and devote 8 hours a day sacrificing herbs, it wouldn't make me sleep any less. You decide what makes you happy in your life and as long as you don't ring my doorbell and try to share the good news with me, it's ok. Happiness in life does not come from believing or disbelieving, so an Atheist isn't necessarily having a better life. But me being all tolerant about what you believe in or not -in private- doesn't imply I have to be postmodern about it.

So let me again point out where your argumentation sucks.

You do not believe in Santa Claus because his face was different and your mother explained to you that it was just a story. Well, it sure isn't an argument for the non-existance of Santa Claus. The real one lives on the North Pole and doesn't show himself when people look.
Also, god his face is different in all religions, and many people will tell you it is only a story.
You see; god - Santa Claus. The argument and logic is identical for both but one doesn't make you wanna feel agnostic, the other does. It's the special status I mentioned.

Gravity is a yes for most of us. You say you can deduce it from the observed effects. Every time you fall you are hurt. But gravity is a word that refers to a theory. Newton had his first explanation and it took until general relativity to find out Newton wasn't that right. Gravity can just as easily be a byproduct of something else or something completely different.
Observing the effects does not imply something is necesarrily true. Again, we take the causes of these effects for granted and are seldom agnostic about them. Again, you grant one a different status than the other. Gravity being a no-brainer, god being special. It's why I said that god has got agnostics by the balls.

No means to know is not a good excuse because as I mentioned before, there is no means to know a lot of things.
And yes we cannot prove it 100%, we can only show evidence supporting or evidence lacking.

If you would bet on 'no god', you are already on the Atheist side. You are only in denial.
It's simple; if you are agnostic, you admit both sides are possible or even probable. Yes I know, you will hide that fact behind the "we can not know" argument but what you say is; if we could know, it would either be A or B. You consider both sides possible, no matter how much evidence one side has or lacks.

It's as if you would have to bet on a horse race and one is the winner of the last five derbies, lots of blood in the breed, excellent papers and the other is a donkey with three legs.

Tell me, would a true agnostic dare to predict the outcome?

It's a good thing you escaped Christianity mate but if you had the courage to do that, have the courage to rethink everything. You can still make up your mind and decide what your thing is.
Like I said, it's your life.

D.


This reminds me of a song by Devo; Freedom Of Choice...Is what you want.
_________________________
~The power to deny is as the power of myth~

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#13381 - 10/24/08 10:22 AM Re: Hypothetical Question [Re: BlacKAcRE66]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3934
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Hi Fabiano.

 Quote:

I feel more right in saying "I know that I don't know and there is no mean to know" than in saying "God exists" or "God does not exists".

Do you not see how you have been roped into a ridiculous position?

You are taking a premise which is completely ludicrous, and lending it credibility taking a position that says 'well this could be true'.

The only ends you are serving by taking this position are the ends of the believer by lending credibility to their beliefs that is neither earned nor deserved.
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#13382 - 10/24/08 12:02 PM Re: Hypothetical Question [Re: Dan_Dread]
BlacKAcRE66 Offline
pledge


Registered: 10/22/08
Posts: 59
Loc: California
 Quote:
Gravity is a yes for most of us. You say you can deduce it from the observed effects. Every time you fall you are hurt. But gravity is a word that refers to a theory. Newton had his first explanation and it took until general relativity to find out Newton wasn't that right. Gravity can just as easily be a byproduct of something else or something completely different.
Observing the effects does not imply something is necesarrily true. Again, we take the causes of these effects for granted and are seldom agnostic about them. Again, you grant one a different status than the other. Gravity being a no-brainer, god being special. It's why I said that god has got agnostics by the balls.


Proven theories are true but not absolutes, because since Newton we have discovered that we can manipulate gravity by generating anti-gravity simply by canceling out or matching the frequency, but Newton's law still holds true as long as there are no counter acting forces...Gravity is a byproduct of a further explanation...The Earth's rotation, Which is a byproduct of another thing, the magnetic polarities that keep it in rotation. But this understanding was Occult or hidden from us till we were able to venture further in our scientific studies which have their roots in occultism.

I think God is something others had labeled to science so they can control it, so they can control our development of reason.
_________________________
~The power to deny is as the power of myth~

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#13383 - 10/24/08 12:05 PM Re: Hypothetical Question [Re: Dan_Dread]
Fabiano Offline
member


Registered: 09/06/08
Posts: 374
Hi Diavolo,

Quick reply as I have few time, I'll come back later :

- Gravity is a force. It's concrete and real. Then yes there is a Newton theory which has his limitations and a relativity theory showing these limitations, then there'll probably be an other theory that will show relativity limits... A theory (or model) should not be confused with what it describes...

- Even if I would bet on the good horse, it's still possible he has an heart attack during the race and the 3 legs horse wins...

- Thanks for the "new perspective" be sure I'll take it into account in my thoughts.

- By coming on this Forum and exchanging with all of you, is it not "rethinking anything" ?

Dan,

Trying to make me feel ridiculous is useless ;\) ...

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