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#13086 - 10/21/08 11:45 AM Hypothetical Question
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
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I was asked this by someone I go to so school with the other day:
"What if heaven and hell were real, you would be going to hell does this bother you?"

My response: In the unlikely event there is a god, I prefer hell. This is because that is where all my friends will be and I would rather be with like minded individuals than stuck in some place with the people whom I despise for all eternity. To quote Johnny Hobo: at least in hell there's rock and roll and there aint no jesus christ. Just wondering what the perspective of the other members on this forum are.
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#13093 - 10/21/08 12:49 PM Re: Hypothetical Question [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
The Zebu Offline
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I think that's oversimplifying it, but it's actually an interesting question that deserves an answer. What if the Christian myths about God, Heaven, Hell, and Salvation were all true? I have several interpretations of this question.

1. Christian salvation is something that is supposedly heartfelt and sincere. Regardless of whether or not Christianity is "true", I still think it is a self-ingratiating and unnatural way of thinking. Therefore, since it goes against my core values, I can never be a true Christian no matter how much I put on a veil of false piety- so I would go to hell anyway. Bring it on.

2. Hell brings up images of hellfire and brimstone, but these ideas of fleshly punishment are child's metaphors, as the soul has no body to hurt- most theological-minded people will tell you that hell is really separation from God, and the true "pain" of hell is being cast away from divinity. However, I want nothing to do with the Christian God, as he is a vile and tyrannous character. Furthermore, divinity and sanctity are alien concepts to me. Therefore hell would mean nothing to a person like me. So bring it on.

3. I don't believe in an afterlife, and since I've come to terms with that, I really don't care that my soul will cease to exist once my body turns back into dust. But as a selfish human, I desire the preservation of my ego over all things, so an eternity of anything- even pain- is a welcoming idea. Bring it on.
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#13107 - 10/21/08 01:59 PM Re: Hypothetical Question [Re: The Zebu]
Dan_Dread Offline
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I think such a 'what if' scenario vastly overcredits their position. This is the same reason I abhor the term 'agnostic'.
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#13130 - 10/21/08 06:33 PM Re: Hypothetical Question [Re: Dan_Dread]
Phaethon Offline
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Ive asked myself that question alot when I was younger, and I still occasionally get asked that. I mean, guilt would be a stronger punishment in heaven that suffering is in hell. Besides, im a masochist, id scream in sexual joy as they whip me ;D.

Last time I was asked that I simply said that in hell id be surrounded by my friends. If i did get into heaven, id suffer from guilt of seeing innocent people suffer.
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#13136 - 10/21/08 07:04 PM Re: Hypothetical Question [Re: Phaethon]
The Zebu Offline
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But no suffering is allowed in heaven! So everything would be cheerfulness and sunshine and happiness with God and all the angels and saints and good loving people, while your friends and family are all suffering an eternity of unimaginable torture with no possible hope of redemption. ISN'T THAT GREAT!?!?

As far as agnosticism goes, people misuse the term a lot, as if it means they "aren't sure" if there's a god or not, because JESUS FORBID you use the term Atheist. Well technically if you are an agnostic, then you don't believe in gnosis, which means you reject the divinity of Christ and are therefore just as worse as not buying into the existence of God. Huzzah!


Edited by The Zebu (10/21/08 07:05 PM)
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#13139 - 10/21/08 07:29 PM Re: Hypothetical Question [Re: The Zebu]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Heh

If you read the actual description of 'heaven'(aka new Jerusalem) in all it's fragments (mostly in revelation) you would realize no sane human would ever want to go there!

We are the borg....


Edited by Dan_Dread (10/21/08 07:30 PM)
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#13169 - 10/21/08 10:24 PM Re: Hypothetical Question [Re: Dan_Dread]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread
I think such a 'what if' scenario vastly overcredits their position. This is the same reason I abhor the term 'agnostic'.




Agreed, but I still thought it was an interestingly funny question. The funniest part was the look on his face when I told him my answer.
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#13172 - 10/21/08 10:43 PM Re: Hypothetical Question [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
blsk Offline
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What was their reasoning for the FACT that you are going to hell? (I doubt they had any)
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#13175 - 10/21/08 10:57 PM Re: Hypothetical Question [Re: blsk]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
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Most likely because I reject that idea that some omnipitent entity impregnated some chick (that is still refered to as a virgin) who gave birth to some dude name jesus who was later crucified and is my only path to "salvation"
That is a way one way ticket as far as they are concerned.
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#13177 - 10/21/08 11:04 PM Re: Hypothetical Question [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
blsk Offline
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Yes but if you were misinformed or mislead by "gods people" than you will be forgiven. That's kinda the whole idea of the "gods UNDESERVED kindness" thing. If that were not true than that god does not exist anyways making it all a lie. Hypothetically speaking of course.
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#13187 - 10/22/08 04:43 AM Re: Hypothetical Question [Re: blsk]
coelentrate Offline
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Besides that, I think that after one million years there, I'll be quite used to being on fire and won't mind it anymore.
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#13191 - 10/22/08 07:45 AM Re: Hypothetical Question [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
Diavolo Offline
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Hell baby, there is a huge club and a zillion of babies waiting on me.
Just to torture me they make the babies run faster than me but I can live with that.

D.

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#13193 - 10/22/08 07:56 AM Re: Hypothetical Question [Re: coelentrate]
lux Offline
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I think it is presumptious of anyone to say who is going to hell or heaven.

All we know is that those who live within the Catholic faith their salvation is assured, however I personally dont know anyone who lives within the Catholic faith, I could say the pope, but that would only be an assumption.

Then of course, how can we say who is in hell, some say hitler, stalin etc but we are judging these people on their actions. That is wrong in itself. Who knows hitler may have been so disturbed that he could not have done anything but go down that path, perhaps he showed some act of kindness in his life that was more pleaseing to God that many acts of kindness from someone who was not disturbed, we should not judge people on their actions.

Then I hear people on here discussing what heaven and hell will be like, as if they know, Christians do not even try to guess what it is like, all we know is that it is ultimate happiness while hell is ultimate suffering. Funny how someone could say I would rather go to hell because I like to be whipped.... then in hell you would not be whipped because it is hell....it would more likey that you personally would be whipped in heaven, if that is what you need for happiness.

Eternal flames is not like earthly fire, it is an eternal suffering, imagine the suffering that a person feels when they want to commit suicide to end it, imagine something like that but at an unimaginable level slowly getting worse as eternity goes on and on and on and unable to end it... that is more likey to be eternal flames than actual fire.

then we talk of heaven and hell as places, perhaps they are states of mind and not places.


Edited by lux (10/22/08 07:58 AM)

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#13194 - 10/22/08 07:58 AM Re: Hypothetical Question [Re: lux]
Diavolo Offline
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 Quote:
Then of course, how can we say who is in hell, some say hitler, stalin etc but we are judging these people on their actions. That is wrong in itself. Who knows hitler may have been so disturbed that he could not have done anything but go down that path, perhaps he showed some act of kindness in his life that was more pleaseing to God that many acts of kindness from someone who was not disturbed, we should not judge people on their actions.


Correct me if I'm wrong but are you now saying Hitler maybe acted like that because god made him that way?

D.

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#13195 - 10/22/08 08:00 AM Re: Hypothetical Question [Re: Diavolo]
lux Offline
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More likey something in his life, a bit like how the death of alister crowley's dad sent him on his path

Edited by lux (10/22/08 08:01 AM)

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#13207 - 10/22/08 10:53 AM Re: Hypothetical Question [Re: lux]
Morgan Offline
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So its a matter of free will or god's preordained path?

Cause god is supposed to know everything, and care for his children.

Is it he loves us no matter what we do?
or
He sets us up to suffer and he laughs at the outcome?

I think absentee landlord might be right.
Otherwise, please explain why a 5 year child is allowed to be beaten, abused, and killed by its parents?

Morgan
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#13208 - 10/22/08 11:02 AM Re: Hypothetical Question [Re: Morgan]
lux Offline
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He loves us no matter what we do.

a 5yr old is allowed to go through this because his/her (dont use "it" that is so dehumanizing) parents were given free will.

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#13211 - 10/22/08 11:13 AM Re: Hypothetical Question [Re: lux]
Morgan Offline
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So god loves a person who kills a 5 year old by beating her to death.

So god allows an innocent child to be abused.

So god also allows the parents to go to heaven cause they were catholic?

So god needs a lesson in moral objectivity, and knowing right from wrong.


This is it.
This is our heaven.
This is our hell.
This is all there is.
I am my own god.
I make my own choices and take responsibilty for them.
My eternal mark is from the lives I affect, and the memories I leave behind.
If you are remembered you never really die.

That is Satanism (to me) in a nutshell simplified for you.

Morgan
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Fuck em if they can't take a joke
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#13217 - 10/22/08 11:43 AM Re: Hypothetical Question [Re: Morgan]
lux Offline
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"So god loves a person who kills a 5 year old by beating her to death"

Yes, but you have to remember he hates the killing

"So god allows an innocent child to be abused."

Permits it to happen... not allows it

Free will permits it to happen, free will is the will of God, so the will of God permits it to happen.... but he does not "allow" someone to abuse a child.

"So god also allows the parents to go to heaven cause they were catholic?"

I dont know, their final destination is between God and them.

"So god needs a lesson in moral objectivity, and knowing right from wrong"

Right is whatever is pleasing to God, Wrong is whatever is abhorant to God, he needs no lessons in moral objectivity he is the source of morality.

"My eternal mark is from the lives I affect, and the memories I leave behind.
If you are remembered you never really die."

Then Go kill 6 million Jews!

99% of the time its the bad guys that are remembered.... doesnt that say something?


Edited by lux (10/22/08 11:44 AM)

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#13219 - 10/22/08 11:58 AM Re: Hypothetical Question [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
Fabiano Offline
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To this question I would have answered:

Supposing they exists, which Heaven, which Hell? The Xian ones? If the Xian one could exist, why not the indhuist or Islamic ones?
Don't your fear to have chosen the wrong religion and to fall in the Hell of an other one?

And if you don't fear it arguing that there is only one true God (so one Hell and one Heaven) and salvation does not depends on the religion you choose, then I have as a Satanist the same chances to go in Hell or Heaven than any other man.

At Secondary school, I had a religion teacher who was a theologian (and also a Xian). I remember the conclusion of one lesson dedicated to "who will be saved". The answer was "any sincere man" (sincere Xian, sincere Buddhist, sincere Atheist,...).

So, if Heaven and Hell exists I think I'll go in Heaven because I'm sincere Satanist.

If Hell is a place were there is only suffering and Heaven the place where there is only Happiness and God send me to Hell then I will have no rest in raising an Army in Hell and conqueer Heavens !

If Hell & Heaven are more state of minds, than I'm quite confident and think Torquemada is in a very bad position (will be hard for him to explain to God he sincerely believed inquisition was in line with his Faith)


Just a last word about "agnostic" as it was addressed in this thread. I define myself as an agnostic because:
* It's possible GOD exists but I have no proof of it
* It's possible GOD does not exists but I have no proof of it
* The only logical conclusion I can make is "I know that I don't know (and that there are no mean to know).

To my eyes, Atheism and Theism are based on Faith (i.e. belief without proof).



Edited by Fabiano (10/22/08 12:21 PM)

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#13222 - 10/22/08 01:19 PM Re: Hypothetical Question [Re: Fabiano]
Diavolo Offline
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Mate, I had to go take a bath and chill out after reading your reply. Mentioning being an agnostic makes me feel as if someone kicked me in my intellectual nuts. It triggers some killer frenzy only displayed in B-movies.

I know you can't prove that god exists and of course you can't prove god doesn't exist either but you can be sure of one thing; if A is true notA is not true. But is that a reason to sit on the fence and not take a position at all? Does it make you more right?

No, agnosticism is -and excuse me that I say so- intellectual cowardism. It's a bit as if you aren't sure whether to run or fight when an enemy comes and thus decide to hop around in circles wielding your fists. It sure ain't gonna impress anyone, neither isn't it going to be at your advantage.

If logic really dictates that agnosticism is the best solution because you can't be 100% sure of A or notA then you have to be agnostic about almost everything in life.
At least 90% of what you think to be true you got from other sources. The other 10% you got from your subjective self. Very little in life gave you ever a 100% failproof answer. Goblins, dragons, teapots in space, spaghetti monsters, genes, atoms, gravity, big bang, black holes, the man on the moon, angels and ghosts, hell even Osama Bin laden and Bush can't be guaranteed to exist. I never met them and only got the knowledge from papers or television. I saw kobolds and dragons on it too.
Isn't it weird how most are only agnostic about god but seldom about cows in space or little green marshmellow babies lurking in the dark? Is logic different for god somehow, like he's a special exception? Ask an agnostic if he believes in Santa Claus and I'll bet all besides the loonies are gonna say; are you kidding me, you think I'm an idiot. I still have to meet the first rubbing his chin while saying; hmm, I don't know, I have to be agnostic about him.

Logic dictates that something is either false or true but that both can't be true. (Don't argue against this with S. his cat now please)
Logic also dictates that if there is no proof at all for something or no substantial theory that can be verified at one point, it likely isn't going to exist.

There is so much proof that all could have happened without god. There is so little, err excuse me, NO proof for god anywhere.

What could a logical person only conclude?

Get some intellectual courage and leave the safe spot, people aren't going to hurt you. You ain't becoming a believer because you pick the side of no god. You are becoming someone that has the advantage on his side but is always open for argumentation. It just has to be good enough.

Hmm, chilling out first is miraculous; thank you god.

D.

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#13231 - 10/22/08 03:29 PM Re: Hypothetical Question [Re: lux]
The Zebu Offline
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All these things rest on the assumption that there is a pure soul inside of every human, for which there is no evidence whatsoever.

I see organisms consisting of flesh and bone. If a mentally disturbed person starts killing people, I don't care whether or not it's his "evil intent" or his mental sickness driving him to commit crimes- he deserves nothing less than to be purged from the species. In my eyes he is "bad", and it is imperceivable to me how anyone could view him otherwise.

We have nothing else to judge one another than our actions. Therefore there is no reason to assume there's a guy in the clouds who can look at what's "really" going on in our heads, or that the serial-killing nutjob can somehow be "saved".

But Lux, I do have an honest-to-Jeebus question for you about the issue brought up earlier:

If no suffering is allowed in heaven, then how does that account for the pain of knowing your loved ones are in hell?

This to me is the greatest paradox that disproves the existence of an eternal Heaven and Hell.


Edited by The Zebu (10/22/08 03:29 PM)
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#13235 - 10/22/08 04:00 PM Re: Hypothetical Question [Re: The Zebu]
blsk Offline
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Diavolo, i'm with Fabiano on this one. How is it cowardice to be on the fence. I don't see that at all. There may be a god. It is not impossible. But that doesn't mean i'm going to jump in the first group that says they are right. Show me! That sounds to me a lot like jumping on the Iraq war simply because Bush said they have weapons. We all see where that went. We simply demand reasoning on the matter that is all. Oh and by the way, there is proof of black holes.
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#13237 - 10/22/08 04:07 PM Re: Hypothetical Question [Re: blsk]
Diavolo Offline
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Like I mentioned; why don't you ask me to prove you that Santa Claus doesn't exist or gremlins? You know why; because the mere idea is ridiculous, you'd feel insulted if people would only imagine you'd maybe believe in them. I'll never see you demand reason on those or anything else you take for granted.

But hey, god is so special, you wanna make an exception for him. If he's special, he has gotten to you.

D.

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#13239 - 10/22/08 04:08 PM Re: Hypothetical Question [Re: Diavolo]
blsk Offline
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I take NOTHING at face value. I want a reason for everything. I'm like that anoying kid allways asking why, why, why.

Edited by blsk (10/22/08 04:10 PM)
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#13240 - 10/22/08 04:10 PM Re: Hypothetical Question [Re: blsk]
Diavolo Offline
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Tsk Tsk, now don't you lie to me. You'd be the first human being on earth to do so.

D.

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#13241 - 10/22/08 04:11 PM Re: Hypothetical Question [Re: Diavolo]
blsk Offline
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Clever, but nice try.
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#13243 - 10/22/08 04:28 PM Re: Hypothetical Question [Re: blsk]
Diavolo Offline
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No seriously, you don't question everything in life; you take a lot for granted although there is no certainty that it is like it is. I do the same, as does everyone out there. The difference between people is that some question more than others but even when embracing the answers, there is no guarantee they are the right answers. We decide to believe they are right. We take a position on things sometimes for no good reasons, other times after judging the arguments.

I can't prove anything to not be. None can, it's an intellectual no-brainer. We can only prove that something is or theorize what it is we observe.

Agnosticism is the Paris Hilton of convictions; a lot of appearance but very little content.

D.

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#13244 - 10/22/08 04:33 PM Re: Hypothetical Question [Re: Diavolo]
blsk Offline
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Ok, granted. There are SOME things taken, but only things of little concern. Not something like the meaning of our very existance or what (if anything) happens after death.
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#13245 - 10/22/08 04:45 PM Re: Hypothetical Question [Re: blsk]
Diavolo Offline
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And that's my point; if you take some things for granted, and many are of a bigger concern than you at the moment might realize, then why aren't you agnostic about all of these?

Why aren't you agnostic about all the other negatives?

D.

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#13246 - 10/22/08 04:49 PM Re: Hypothetical Question [Re: Diavolo]
lux Offline
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"The answer was "any sincere man" (sincere Xian, sincere Buddhist, sincere Atheist,...)."

"not everyone who says lord, lord will enter the gates of heaven but those who do the will of my father in heaven"

"Don't your fear to have chosen the wrong religion and to fall in the Hell of an other one?"

My final destination is in the hands of God, I am imperfect i can only aspire to live as best i can, I hope for his mercy. But if my eternal state (salvation is not neccesaraly about eternal life) is not in my own hands then what is the point in worrying about it. My motivation to be a christian is not fear but love.

" I will have no rest in raising an Army in Hell and conqueer Heavens"

Satan already tried that!

"If no suffering is allowed in heaven, then how does that account for the pain of knowing your loved ones are in hell?"

Your greatest paradox that disproves heaven and hell assumes 1. that there is going to be people in hell, 2. that we will know they are in hell when we are in heaven.

Everyone is agnostic, I am an agnostic.. I dont know for sure either way, but i have faith in Christian philosophy I see that it is truth, so then I assume that Christian teaching on the after life is truth also... but I am still agnostic, I take it on faith.

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#13247 - 10/22/08 04:51 PM Re: Hypothetical Question [Re: Diavolo]
blsk Offline
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I'm not sure what specifically you mean by them being a bigger concern than I realize. If these things them develope to be a matter of serious concern I will then step back and say wait a minute what is going on here? I will not continue in a blind, and therefore ignorant, acceptance. Things taken for granted: That car is going to stop at his red light. Drinking this will not kill me. There is proof that such thinking has worked before but blindly accepting it as fact can be disasterous.
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#13248 - 10/22/08 04:54 PM Re: Hypothetical Question [Re: blsk]
blsk Offline
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Lux, your final destination is not in gods hands. It is in yours. I as an agnostic don't put my faith in anything unassured. That's kinda the point of it. You puting your faith in something is not agnosticism.

-sorry about the double post. I tried to delete it.


Edited by blsk (10/22/08 04:57 PM)
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#13249 - 10/22/08 04:57 PM Re: Hypothetical Question [Re: blsk]
Diavolo Offline
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You accept your own identity for granted I assume. I always did in the past, just like I accepted free will for granted, even if it logically conflict with the fact that we live in a deterministic universe. I believe in them these days but based upon whole different arguments.

Btw, here's a movie from someone explaining why agnosticism isn't necessarily the logical thing.

Agnosticism, the logical conclusion?

D.

Btw Lux: shoo

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#13250 - 10/22/08 05:00 PM Re: Hypothetical Question [Re: Diavolo]
blsk Offline
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Fact-your "free" will is still subject to the laws of physics.
I'll check that movie out right now.

I like what I saw. The crocodile was an excellent example. However I will have to view it again as there is a screaming baby in my background and that makes it hard to think. So lets move on.


Edited by blsk (10/22/08 05:06 PM)
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#13252 - 10/22/08 05:09 PM Re: Hypothetical Question [Re: blsk]
lux Offline
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You put your faith in the man driving when you are a passenger, yet it is not assured he wont crash
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#13269 - 10/22/08 05:50 PM Re: Hypothetical Question [Re: lux]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Agnosticism is christianity with training wheels. In order to be agnostic you must be at least convinced enough of christian mythology to believe it might be true, which is my eyes is just as intellectually weak as saying it is true.
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#13273 - 10/22/08 05:57 PM Re: Hypothetical Question [Re: Dan_Dread]
blsk Offline
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ON the contrary dan. (by the way nice to have you join us. I enjoy your posts)

I do not believe the Christian mythology as I can prove that god does not exist. I do, however, Keep the posibility open that there is a force we do not understand simply due the the complexity of matter.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9mhsW5aWJM

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#13274 - 10/22/08 05:57 PM Re: Hypothetical Question [Re: Dan_Dread]
lux Offline
Banned
pledge


Registered: 09/26/08
Posts: 64
Loc: Newcastle UK
agnostisim is the only honest possition unless they have been visited by God
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#13278 - 10/22/08 06:14 PM Re: Hypothetical Question [Re: lux]
blsk Offline
member


Registered: 09/22/08
Posts: 298
Loc: salem or
Which god Lux? Your god, Odin, the angel that "inspired" the Book of mormon? Or the god of schitzophrenia?
_________________________
Ed made mens sewing cool.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9mhsW5aWJM

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#13280 - 10/22/08 06:19 PM Re: Hypothetical Question [Re: blsk]
lux Offline
Banned
pledge


Registered: 09/26/08
Posts: 64
Loc: Newcastle UK
the god that is
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#13282 - 10/22/08 06:22 PM Re: Hypothetical Question [Re: lux]
blsk Offline
member


Registered: 09/22/08
Posts: 298
Loc: salem or
You cant say you know "him" to be the god that IS. That would not, then, be faith but science.
_________________________
Ed made mens sewing cool.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9mhsW5aWJM

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#13291 - 10/22/08 07:03 PM Re: Hypothetical Question [Re: lux]
ta2zz Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 1552
Loc: Connecticut

Since nobody else caught this little tidbit of hypocrisy…

First Lux you say…

 Originally Posted By: lux
Then I hear people on here discussing what heaven and hell will be like, as if they know, Christians do not even try to guess what it is like, all we know is that it is ultimate happiness while hell is ultimate suffering.

Which not even a half page later you go on to say…

 Originally Posted By: lux
Eternal flames is not like earthly fire, it is an eternal suffering, imagine the suffering that a person feels when they want to commit suicide to end it, imagine something like that but at an unimaginable level slowly getting worse as eternity goes on and on and on and unable to end it... that is more likey to be eternal flames than actual fire.

I am confused Lux, are you not then a Christian guessing at what heaven and hell will be like?

 Originally Posted By: lux
then we talk of heaven and hell as places, perhaps they are states of mind and not places.

Perhaps this is hell then… Or are you assuming that after death you will think as you do with a flesh and blood brain... Silly...

To the other members of The600club;

You guys willed this one to come back… Talked about him and poof he returns… Is it magic, UFO’s, or something like the collective unconscious at work when this happens?

~T~
_________________________
We are the music makers, And we are the dreamers of dreams. ~Arthur William Edgar O'Shaughnessy

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#13292 - 10/22/08 07:03 PM Re: Hypothetical Question [Re: blsk]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3882
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
LoL a christian talking about intellectual honesty. That's rich
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#13294 - 10/22/08 07:06 PM Re: Hypothetical Question [Re: Dan_Dread]
blsk Offline
member


Registered: 09/22/08
Posts: 298
Loc: salem or
And the crowd goes wild!! Good point Tat I didn't catch that, and I was thinking the same thing of his return. Wieeeerrrd.

Edited by blsk (10/22/08 07:07 PM)
_________________________
Ed made mens sewing cool.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9mhsW5aWJM

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#13307 - 10/22/08 08:07 PM Re: Hypothetical Question [Re: lux]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
Lux what are you doing here? I thought you were banned. Either way please keep your nonsense out of my thread. That is all thank you.
_________________________
No gods. No masters.

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#13332 - 10/23/08 12:26 AM Re: Hypothetical Question [Re: lux]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1646
Loc: Orlando, FL
"agnostisim is the only honest possition unless they have been visited by God"

EXACTLY. So a normal person with no "spiritual experiences" (ie, pretty much all of us) have no rational reason to believe in God whatsoever!

Therefore WE would have no reason to believe in God, and also no incentive to accept Jesus Christ as our savior or any of that nonsense.

If you believe this then what are you quarreling about?
_________________________
«Recibe, ¡oh Lucifer! la sangre de esta víctima que sacrifico en tu honor.»

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#13335 - 10/23/08 01:03 AM Re: Hypothetical Question [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
BlacKAcRE66 Offline
pledge


Registered: 10/22/08
Posts: 59
Loc: California
 Originally Posted By: 6Satan6Archist6
I was asked this by someone I go to so school with the other day:
"What if heaven and hell were real, you would be going to hell does this bother you?"

My response: In the unlikely event there is a god, I prefer hell. This is because that is where all my friends will be and I would rather be with like minded individuals than stuck in some place with the people whom I despise for all eternity. To quote Johnny Hobo: at least in hell there's rock and roll and there aint no jesus christ. Just wondering what the perspective of the other members on this forum are.


It is really profound and ignorant for someone to assume that you would automatically go to hell just for being what you probably are meant to be...I do not believe in that concept but I also do not fit into the LaVeyian theology either...I believe we are all made to be a negative or positive force in the World from a polarity stand point and I believe we all can contribute to constructive continuance. As I once read from the Order of Nine Angles "Evil can serve noble or ignoble purposes"...To me Satanism is the ultimate regulating factor in World Order and if I am a Satanist then I am just the other side of order, Our own country and World is founded on the principle of Chaos which is always moving forward and as a result the Old religion is resurfacing as the Phoenix...That is why we have upheaval, and the tearing down of one empire to build another...Our universe started from Chaos and yet it is ordered...If you be a true son of Satan then you are one with Chaos and ye have nothing to fear not even hell because you will be ruling there. Satanist make history.

Hail Satan!
_________________________
~The power to deny is as the power of myth~

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#13339 - 10/23/08 11:02 AM Re: Hypothetical Question [Re: lux]
BlacKAcRE66 Offline
pledge


Registered: 10/22/08
Posts: 59
Loc: California
 Originally Posted By: lux
More likey something in his life, a bit like how the death of alister crowley's dad sent him on his path


You know the first thing that came to my mind was Sir Isaac Newton's law: "For every action there is a reaction". We live in a universe of "cause and effect". for example if I hit you, you are either going to hit me back, kill me, or maybe walk away. Everything we do is like a stone being thrown into a pond making the water ripple. A ripple hit Aleister Crowley, and a ripple hit Adolf Hitler. The way we react to the effect gives way to other effects which produce other causes.

It is like the coal in a locomotive that keeps the boiler going and the train moving...The train being our existence...If we did not have such mechanisms, we would not have a reason to get up in the morning, and we would have reached entropy...In alot of ways we have Hell on Earth and we help make it for ourselves because we have egotist,murderers,rapist, and thugs of the lowest mentality. But then again these are just devolved creatures who fell through the cracks or are playing a vital part of chaos which is regulated by our policing and where the next bend in the road occurs depends upon how well a job we did or the choice we made in the Execution of duty.

Whoa! I need to take a break.
_________________________
~The power to deny is as the power of myth~

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#13340 - 10/23/08 11:10 AM Re: Hypothetical Question [Re: lux]
Ringmaster Offline
member


Registered: 04/07/08
Posts: 205
Loc: Salem Oregon
Back up wait a minute. So you're saying he acted like that not because he chose to but some event in his life caused him to do such acts? Are you suggesting PTSD or something along those lines because if so that is a load of bullocks. He acted on his own behalf. It seems that the whole cliche of daddy didn't love me or mommy's boyfriend touched me in a naughty way made me do it thing is being used as the basis of excuses of most criminals nowadays and now we are giving it to Hitler? Whatever happened to taking responsibility for ones own actions?
_________________________
Get off the cross and save yourself, I feel no pity for the cries of a weak man.

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#13343 - 10/23/08 12:42 PM Re: Hypothetical Question [Re: Ringmaster]
BlacKAcRE66 Offline
pledge


Registered: 10/22/08
Posts: 59
Loc: California
 Originally Posted By: ringmaster
Back up wait a minute. So you're saying he acted like that not because he chose to but some event in his life caused him to do such acts? Are you suggesting PTSD or something along those lines because if so that is a load of bullocks. He acted on his own behalf. It seems that the whole cliche of daddy didn't love me or mommy's boyfriend touched me in a naughty way made me do it thing is being used as the basis of excuses of most criminals nowadays and now we are giving it to Hitler? Whatever happened to taking responsibility for ones own actions?


Well, there is still the law of free will...How you react determines the repercussions or counter balancing forces..How you and I process our issues determines...I am not suggesting Hitler was justified for his actions, but he was not only effected as a child but his world view was shaped or nurtured by his experiences...It is worth comparing Winston Churchill and Adolf Hitler here...Both Churchill and Hitler has similar childhood experiences and both were artistic and both were practitioners of Occultism later in their lives...Though both had been negatively effected in their childhood, one came out more positive to be able to come out in the right place in time and history to defeat the other...Nature has a way of balancing itself out...This may be hard to accept, but Hitler played just as much a necessary role in our system because he was the force that helped in the process of bringing about World Order. We are in a constant state of death and rebirth like our universe with the death of stars and the birthing of new ones...It is a chaotic event. When your mother gave birth to you, she went through pain, but immediately appreciated the end result (I hope) Even though the experience was painful, she cherished the life which came from it. Are we a little happier today after the World Wars? Maybe not because we are already in a new cycle of change and the World is giving birth to a new order of all things...Yesterday it was Hitler who was the negative integer, but today it is radical Islam, financial crisis, food shortages, revolutions and political upheaval. The forces of Chaos is bringing about the birthing of a new thing. No it is not PTSD or something... There is the of law cause and effect, Free will and then time and chance or nature taking its course.

How many people have been negatively affected by some tragedy and instead of going out and killing someone, they decided to take a different course like starting a non-profit organization to raise an awareness? That is the law of free will working in a positive manner and is yet chaos, but one thing I do not like is that some Satanist would say that person is "weak minded". That person who had been negatively effected and went on the higher path, could be setting out to screw up every persons life who had acted in the same manner as the one who harmed this person who chose a higher road. That Person could be a Satanist.

A Satanist does not run down the hill to fuck one person, he walks down the hill and fucks em all.

Hail Satan!


Edited by BlacKAcRE66 (10/23/08 12:44 PM)
_________________________
~The power to deny is as the power of myth~

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#13358 - 10/23/08 08:26 PM Re: Hypothetical Question [Re: BlacKAcRE66]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
Towards Lux.....

"Free will permits it to happen, free will is the will of God, so the will of God permits it to happen.... but he does not "allow" someone to abuse a child."

Yes he does. Your god sits there watches, and does nothing.


"Right is whatever is pleasing to God, Wrong is whatever is abhorant to God, he needs no lessons in moral objectivity he is the source of morality."

So its pleasing to god for a small child to raped and abused, and killed.
Oh wait, he did that before with the ordering of the killing of all the innocent children/first born sons of egypt.

"Then Go kill 6 million Jews!"
Why are you so angrey?
Maybe my family were jews, maybe I was in the camps, maybe my family was in the camps? You dont know who I am or who any of us are.

"99% of the time its the bad guys that are remembered.... doesnt that say something?"

Yes, it says your god doesn't care, and doesn't exist.


"I dont know for sure either way, but i have faith in Christian philosophy"

Thats all fine and dandy, but we don't and no amount of your ramblings twisting of posts and words will change that fact.
That's it.

"agnostisim is the only honest possition unless they have been visited by God"

How do you know its god and not a demon, a chemical inbalance, mental disorder, or just a bad drug trip.



Go in peace, the peace I give....

Morgan


Next.........
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#13363 - 10/23/08 09:04 PM Re: Hypothetical Question [Re: Morgan]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1646
Loc: Orlando, FL
Expanding on what Morgan says, I must remark on the "why do we suffer if there is a God" issue.

To me, if God existed, he would not ignore the world's suffering if he was truly good. However, most people use this to imply that God is evil, as he sits by and watches everyone suffer and deliberately does nothing.

However, as the Gnostics suggested, is this not plain evidence that this deity is not good nor evil, but a flawed and imperfect demiurge with only limited power? In his ignorance he proclaims himself to be the true perfect Ultimate God, but since he is imperfect, ultimately he cannot live up to his boastings.

I do not believe in Gnosticism for the most part, but I do agree that if there were a cosmic god, it would certainly not be a self-proclaimed "jealous god" who hungers for human followers. To seek the true god we must look beyond Yaltabaoth.


Edited by The Zebu (10/23/08 09:05 PM)
_________________________
«Recibe, ¡oh Lucifer! la sangre de esta víctima que sacrifico en tu honor.»

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#13365 - 10/23/08 10:18 PM Re: Hypothetical Question [Re: The Zebu]
BlacKAcRE66 Offline
pledge


Registered: 10/22/08
Posts: 59
Loc: California
Oh hey; here is a good one from the Judeo Xian bible...check this out: "I form the light and create darkness; I make peace and create evil: I the Lord do all these things." Isaiah 45:7

I am made to do what I do and so are you Lux! the whole struggle in life is coming to terms with what you were made to be.

Stop the Insanity!
_________________________
~The power to deny is as the power of myth~

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#13370 - 10/23/08 11:17 PM Re: Hypothetical Question [Re: Diavolo]
Fabiano Offline
member


Registered: 09/06/08
Posts: 374
Hey Diavolo,

I wouldn't believe that this is could cause such intense emotions. Hope you enjoyed them, else sorry! LOL

 Quote:
But is that a reason to sit on the fence and not take a position at all? Does it make you more right?

I feel more right in saying "I know that I don't know and there is no mean to know" than in saying "God exists" or "God does not exists".

 Quote:
It sure ain't gonna impress anyone, neither isn't it going to be at your advantage.

My goal is not to impress anyone, in fact I take less care of what others think about me. 2nd, I don't think running away will impress anyone neither.

 Quote:
Ask an agnostic if he believes in Santa Claus

I do not believe in Santa Claus since I was 6. I went in a supermarket to visit him and saw that his face was not the same at all than the previous year. I questioned my mother, she explained me it was just a story.
About gravity? you can logically deduce it from the observed effects. Each time I fall and its hurts, I ensure you it very real!
Big Bang : I'm agnostic

Think you perhaps missed the "and there is no mean to know"...


 Quote:
Logic also dictates that if there is no proof at all for something or no substantial theory that can be verified at one point, it likely isn't going to exist.
I agree. But it's still a "likely".

 Quote:
There is so much proof that all could have happened without god. There is so little, err excuse me, NO proof for god anywhere.

What could a logical person only conclude?
Nothing!!! However, if I would have to bet on it, I would bet on "no god".

 Quote:
Get some intellectual courage and leave the safe spot,...


Don't consider me as a wimp or a wuss, I don't appreciate!

Remeber I've been a Xian and I had the courage to get out of it. Look at what I posted:

 Originally Posted By: Fabiano

 Originally Posted By: Lux
Why dont you want to believe in God?

Because I did it and it ended in an ordeal, Lux! Or your God exists and he's cruel or it does not exists and I curse those who invented him and put such ideas in my head.


Finaly, nobody tells me how I should think, neither Lux, neither the Pope, neither you, sorry !

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#13375 - 10/24/08 05:16 AM Re: Hypothetical Question [Re: Fabiano]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
I don't tell you what to believe; I just give you another perspective. You do with it what you want. You can believe in the Almighty Purple Dragon and devote 8 hours a day sacrificing herbs, it wouldn't make me sleep any less. You decide what makes you happy in your life and as long as you don't ring my doorbell and try to share the good news with me, it's ok. Happiness in life does not come from believing or disbelieving, so an Atheist isn't necessarily having a better life. But me being all tolerant about what you believe in or not -in private- doesn't imply I have to be postmodern about it.

So let me again point out where your argumentation sucks.

You do not believe in Santa Claus because his face was different and your mother explained to you that it was just a story. Well, it sure isn't an argument for the non-existance of Santa Claus. The real one lives on the North Pole and doesn't show himself when people look.
Also, god his face is different in all religions, and many people will tell you it is only a story.
You see; god - Santa Claus. The argument and logic is identical for both but one doesn't make you wanna feel agnostic, the other does. It's the special status I mentioned.

Gravity is a yes for most of us. You say you can deduce it from the observed effects. Every time you fall you are hurt. But gravity is a word that refers to a theory. Newton had his first explanation and it took until general relativity to find out Newton wasn't that right. Gravity can just as easily be a byproduct of something else or something completely different.
Observing the effects does not imply something is necesarrily true. Again, we take the causes of these effects for granted and are seldom agnostic about them. Again, you grant one a different status than the other. Gravity being a no-brainer, god being special. It's why I said that god has got agnostics by the balls.

No means to know is not a good excuse because as I mentioned before, there is no means to know a lot of things.
And yes we cannot prove it 100%, we can only show evidence supporting or evidence lacking.

If you would bet on 'no god', you are already on the Atheist side. You are only in denial.
It's simple; if you are agnostic, you admit both sides are possible or even probable. Yes I know, you will hide that fact behind the "we can not know" argument but what you say is; if we could know, it would either be A or B. You consider both sides possible, no matter how much evidence one side has or lacks.

It's as if you would have to bet on a horse race and one is the winner of the last five derbies, lots of blood in the breed, excellent papers and the other is a donkey with three legs.

Tell me, would a true agnostic dare to predict the outcome?

It's a good thing you escaped Christianity mate but if you had the courage to do that, have the courage to rethink everything. You can still make up your mind and decide what your thing is.
Like I said, it's your life.

D.

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#13378 - 10/24/08 09:55 AM Re: Hypothetical Question [Re: Diavolo]
BlacKAcRE66 Offline
pledge


Registered: 10/22/08
Posts: 59
Loc: California
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
I don't tell you what to believe; I just give you another perspective. You do with it what you want. You can believe in the Almighty Purple Dragon and devote 8 hours a day sacrificing herbs, it wouldn't make me sleep any less. You decide what makes you happy in your life and as long as you don't ring my doorbell and try to share the good news with me, it's ok. Happiness in life does not come from believing or disbelieving, so an Atheist isn't necessarily having a better life. But me being all tolerant about what you believe in or not -in private- doesn't imply I have to be postmodern about it.

So let me again point out where your argumentation sucks.

You do not believe in Santa Claus because his face was different and your mother explained to you that it was just a story. Well, it sure isn't an argument for the non-existance of Santa Claus. The real one lives on the North Pole and doesn't show himself when people look.
Also, god his face is different in all religions, and many people will tell you it is only a story.
You see; god - Santa Claus. The argument and logic is identical for both but one doesn't make you wanna feel agnostic, the other does. It's the special status I mentioned.

Gravity is a yes for most of us. You say you can deduce it from the observed effects. Every time you fall you are hurt. But gravity is a word that refers to a theory. Newton had his first explanation and it took until general relativity to find out Newton wasn't that right. Gravity can just as easily be a byproduct of something else or something completely different.
Observing the effects does not imply something is necesarrily true. Again, we take the causes of these effects for granted and are seldom agnostic about them. Again, you grant one a different status than the other. Gravity being a no-brainer, god being special. It's why I said that god has got agnostics by the balls.

No means to know is not a good excuse because as I mentioned before, there is no means to know a lot of things.
And yes we cannot prove it 100%, we can only show evidence supporting or evidence lacking.

If you would bet on 'no god', you are already on the Atheist side. You are only in denial.
It's simple; if you are agnostic, you admit both sides are possible or even probable. Yes I know, you will hide that fact behind the "we can not know" argument but what you say is; if we could know, it would either be A or B. You consider both sides possible, no matter how much evidence one side has or lacks.

It's as if you would have to bet on a horse race and one is the winner of the last five derbies, lots of blood in the breed, excellent papers and the other is a donkey with three legs.

Tell me, would a true agnostic dare to predict the outcome?

It's a good thing you escaped Christianity mate but if you had the courage to do that, have the courage to rethink everything. You can still make up your mind and decide what your thing is.
Like I said, it's your life.

D.


This reminds me of a song by Devo; Freedom Of Choice...Is what you want.
_________________________
~The power to deny is as the power of myth~

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#13381 - 10/24/08 10:22 AM Re: Hypothetical Question [Re: BlacKAcRE66]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3882
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Hi Fabiano.

 Quote:

I feel more right in saying "I know that I don't know and there is no mean to know" than in saying "God exists" or "God does not exists".

Do you not see how you have been roped into a ridiculous position?

You are taking a premise which is completely ludicrous, and lending it credibility taking a position that says 'well this could be true'.

The only ends you are serving by taking this position are the ends of the believer by lending credibility to their beliefs that is neither earned nor deserved.
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#13382 - 10/24/08 12:02 PM Re: Hypothetical Question [Re: Dan_Dread]
BlacKAcRE66 Offline
pledge


Registered: 10/22/08
Posts: 59
Loc: California
 Quote:
Gravity is a yes for most of us. You say you can deduce it from the observed effects. Every time you fall you are hurt. But gravity is a word that refers to a theory. Newton had his first explanation and it took until general relativity to find out Newton wasn't that right. Gravity can just as easily be a byproduct of something else or something completely different.
Observing the effects does not imply something is necesarrily true. Again, we take the causes of these effects for granted and are seldom agnostic about them. Again, you grant one a different status than the other. Gravity being a no-brainer, god being special. It's why I said that god has got agnostics by the balls.


Proven theories are true but not absolutes, because since Newton we have discovered that we can manipulate gravity by generating anti-gravity simply by canceling out or matching the frequency, but Newton's law still holds true as long as there are no counter acting forces...Gravity is a byproduct of a further explanation...The Earth's rotation, Which is a byproduct of another thing, the magnetic polarities that keep it in rotation. But this understanding was Occult or hidden from us till we were able to venture further in our scientific studies which have their roots in occultism.

I think God is something others had labeled to science so they can control it, so they can control our development of reason.
_________________________
~The power to deny is as the power of myth~

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#13383 - 10/24/08 12:05 PM Re: Hypothetical Question [Re: Dan_Dread]
Fabiano Offline
member


Registered: 09/06/08
Posts: 374
Hi Diavolo,

Quick reply as I have few time, I'll come back later :

- Gravity is a force. It's concrete and real. Then yes there is a Newton theory which has his limitations and a relativity theory showing these limitations, then there'll probably be an other theory that will show relativity limits... A theory (or model) should not be confused with what it describes...

- Even if I would bet on the good horse, it's still possible he has an heart attack during the race and the 3 legs horse wins...

- Thanks for the "new perspective" be sure I'll take it into account in my thoughts.

- By coming on this Forum and exchanging with all of you, is it not "rethinking anything" ?

Dan,

Trying to make me feel ridiculous is useless ;\) ...

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#13384 - 10/24/08 12:23 PM Re: Hypothetical Question [Re: Fabiano]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3882
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
 Quote:

Dan,

Trying to make me feel ridiculous is useless ;\) ...

Uhh, what?

I was pointing out that your position is ridiculous. If you would defend a ridiculous position just because you happen to hold it...well that say's a lot about you now doesn't it?

Try again and maybe this time think about what I said before you reply.
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#13385 - 10/24/08 12:51 PM Re: Hypothetical Question [Re: Dan_Dread]
Nemesis Offline
senior member


Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2175
Loc: US
Boys, take the pissing contest elsewhere please, or else stay on topic.
_________________________
Nothing is sacred.

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#13390 - 10/24/08 01:39 PM Re: Hypothetical Question [Re: Nemesis]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3882
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
I would say the legitimacy of the 'agnostic' position is quite relevant to this discussion.
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#13395 - 10/24/08 02:05 PM Re: Hypothetical Question [Re: Dan_Dread]
Nemesis Offline
senior member


Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2175
Loc: US
And yet you added nothing to the conversation in your above post, only to "call him out" on it. Where does that get us?

If you'd like to debate the finer points of agnosticism, make a separate thread.
_________________________
Nothing is sacred.

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#13396 - 10/24/08 02:37 PM Re: Hypothetical Question [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
Fist Moderator Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/31/07
Posts: 1453
Loc: B'mo Cautious MF
Given all of the real horrors in the world, why on Earth would you need to concern yourself with various fairy tales of heaven and hell?

And why do we have to follow the paradigm of the Sons of Solomon? The Hindus and Buddhist would tell you that hell is right here on Earth. Well, they are at least half right.

Heaven and Hell is right here on Earth. The best and worst of all things can be experienced right now in this life.
_________________________
I am the Devil and I am here to do the Devil's work.

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#13397 - 10/24/08 02:46 PM Re: Hypothetical Question [Re: Fist]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
I assure you that I am not concerned with fairy tales of heaven and hell. I know they are exactly that, fairy tales. You are absolutely right, heaven and hell are the here and now in this life.
_________________________
No gods. No masters.

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#13399 - 10/24/08 02:52 PM Re: Hypothetical Question [Re: Fabiano]
BlacKAcRE66 Offline
pledge


Registered: 10/22/08
Posts: 59
Loc: California
 Originally Posted By: Fabiano
Hi Diavolo,

Quick reply as I have few time, I'll come back later :

- Gravity is a force. It's concrete and real. Then yes there is a Newton theory which has his limitations and a relativity theory showing these limitations, then there'll probably be an other theory that will show relativity limits... A theory (or model) should not be confused with what it describes...

- Even if I would bet on the good horse, it's still possible he has an heart attack during the race and the 3 legs horse wins...

- Thanks for the "new perspective" be sure I'll take it into account in my thoughts.


Yes, but now we are only talking theories which need to be tested by observation...Some theories remain in the laboratory for a long time....There are other laws you seem to scratch on, and that was quantum or random physics...Or the laws of probability...I don't know how gravity is limited unless you change what is producing it, because gravity in other systems or circumstances is infinite such as is the case with Black Holes which tend to get bigger as it sucks in more systems or stars.


Am I going off topic here?
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#13400 - 10/24/08 03:17 PM Re: Hypothetical Question [Re: BlacKAcRE66]
Nemesis Offline
senior member


Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2175
Loc: US
Yeah, you guys are going off on completely different tangents...metaphysics, agnosticism, astronomy, Santa Claus...

The original question was, "What if heaven and hell were real, you would be going to hell does this bother you?".
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#13401 - 10/24/08 03:32 PM Re: Hypothetical Question [Re: Nemesis]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3882
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Personally that just seems like a really silly question.

But ok, I'll play along I guess. My answer to it is: No, not a whit.
If a childlike insecure egocentric tyrannical thing such as that actually existed I would do everything in my power to fight against it.The bible describes hell basically as being out of the presence of god for all eternity. (at least that is how most theologians would tell it)
On the flip side of the coin, the bible describes heaven basically as a less fun version of a borg cube. At least the borg get to walk around. Citizens of 'new Jerusalem' (aka heaven) have to worship the egomaniac 27/7 flat on their faces.

Not a hard choice. Only a maniac would want to go to heaven.
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#13421 - 10/24/08 11:49 PM Re: Hypothetical Question [Re: Nemesis]
BlacKAcRE66 Offline
pledge


Registered: 10/22/08
Posts: 59
Loc: California
I knew it. I like talking science stuff though. I was not only astronomy, it was cosmology.lol
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